Dormammu vs Monarch

Dormammu VS Monarch

-Win by any means.

Any means? Only means are if Monarch finds a magical duex machina or ask for help by a powerful spell user/summoner. Otherwise Dormammu wins.

Dormammu has more than enough raw power to even match Monarch, I however am unsure if even Dormammu could survive the destruction of the universe that would result upon destroying Monarch's suit.

Probably end in a stalemate.

@claymore1998: Are you sure about Dormammu being equal? Apparently The Monarch is capable of whooping three different versions of Superman at the same time with one blow. If Dormammu wasn't a magical entity, I don't think he'd be able to do the same.

@thecrewcabanger: What question is this? He did one-shott The Defenders and Avengers.

@claymore1998: He survived inside of Eternity, which have Big-Bangs and now he can regenerate on his realm.

If anything Dormammu is probably superior, he himself has a lot of extremely powerful feats. In a fit of rage he nearly destroyed the whole Dark Dimension. He once fought Eternity, and though that was never a fight Dormammu could win, he destroyed few planets in the clash and the said energy actually threatened to destroy the universe.

With Dormammu's power and no skill, Hood took on a whole group of Earth heroes and was still too powerful for them before they tricked and exorcised his powers.

Dormammu is pretty powerful himself.

That being said Monarch feat is actually even better than beating 3 Superman, i think he took on an army of alternate reality Superman and Captain Atom, and easily defeated them.

He had external amp in the story though but i suppose that's only fair.

@claymore1998: The Eternity he fought in Strange Tales was the same of DefendersVol3, and he was inside of the one in Strange Tales.

@claymore1998: So, The Monarch absorbed every rendition of Captain Atom through-out the multi-verse? And can you explain his armor a little better? I read above that if it got destroyed the universe would go with it?

I think stalemate, Dormammu is a bit more powerful, but when he destroys Monarch's armour, I don't think he can survive.

Monarch himself is Captain Atom trapped inside a suit created by the Monitors. He defeated an army of Superman and Captain Atom and absorbed all the powers from Captain Atom. We have a new 2 scans per issue rule so I am merely posting this scan to show what happened rather than the whole fight. The first page shows the group of heroes that challanged Monarch and the last page shows him absorbing their powers. For more detail on the fight you will need to visit the comics itself, its called Countdown Arena # 4

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Monarch armor is a suit created by the monitors but its exact purpose has never been fully explained. It was used for the first time by Hank Hall. The suit made Hank so powerful that he could take on the league himself, when without the suit he is barely a street level hero.

Monarch's suit contains within it the power of various Captain Atom and hence the power of the big bang. If the suit is broken the power is released that would destroy the universe. When his suit was destroyed by Superman Prime, in Countdown to Final Crisis # 13. it destroyed the universe they were on.

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Dormammu.

Dormammu.

Dormammu has defeated Eternity and took his place in one of the Defenders arcs. He pretty much survived the death of a universe right there.

@nothingclever: That was with the nearly equal power of his sister, and an alteration in the cosmic power-axis(which increased the scope of their abilities radically).

Dormammu wins, and why wouldn't Dormmamu just go into one of his realms to avoid the blast?

Am afraid Dormammu would win

1up.

Dormammu one shots

Unholy mismatch. Dormammu > 80% DC villains.

Dormammu.

This didn't need a bump for you to say that.

But yes, Dorm wins.

Dormammu stomps, c'mon now...

As for surviving the energy discharge of Monarch's armor, Dormmy already tanked equally and far more impressive attacks like his own blast in Strange Tales#146, which caused a transdimensional holocaust/melted Eternity's own essence and then proceeded to even get caught in the collision of two planets with enough power to nearly brake apart the fabric of the universe. As well, of course, casually swimming inside of Eternity where big-bags go out constantly in Defenders Vol.3#3.

Someone loves Dormamu

Dormammu wins.

Dormammu can’t even survive an explosion of Immortal Hulk’s head. He gets absolutely trashed here. Monarch is Galactus‘s level.

@chad_duby said:

You aren't serious, are you? Because:

• There's nothing proving that Dormammu didn't survive.
• It happened in a future timeline where the characters weren't the same as before, Strange is an example of someone who got weaker in there.
• Hulk was altered by Strange to eat magic itself instead of gamma energy and so all the power from his explosion came from Dormammu's own previous attack against them.

So that showing means nothing to backup Monarch's case here.

I am halfway serious but serious enough to say that.

It looked like he didn’t make it.

Nothing seemed differnt with Dormammu only that he seemed to have conquered the world and would only means he is stronger.

I do know but the explosion was no more than nuke level and killed Dorm.

Dormammu takes it.

@chad_duby: I am halfway serious but serious enough to say that. It looked like he didn’t make it.

And do you have any proof for that, any scan or quote? Anything that isn't solely what you believe it happened? I won't deny this indeed hurt/damaged him because it's very apparent, but there's nothing proving it killed him. I want evidence, not your opinion.

Nothing seemed differnt with Dormammu only that he seemed to have conquered the world and would only means he is stronger.

I said that it could be the case(I presented as a possibility, not fact), unlike you, I don't jump in conclusions without any concrete proof. He still hadn't added the Earth to the Dark Dimension since is how increases his powers when takes over a new place, so no, it doesn't mean he's stronger simply because conquered the planet. The thing is, just the fact we can't assert if he was stronger or weaker already proves how iffy the showing is. We don't know what happened in the meantime, we don't know if fighting all the other villains like Strange said has weakened Dormammu or not, we don't know any of those things exactly because it happened in a future which there's little info about it. The whole comic is dubious because of that and given all this lack of information, I don't believe this showing takes precedence or matters here.

I do know but the explosion was no more than nuke level and killed Dorm.

Are you truly basing how powerful was the explosion simply on visual effects? Because that's an extremely shitty argument and shows an ignorance of your part regarding comics if believe in such logic. Most writers/pencilers don't always draw powerful attacks with a wide scale, hence why it's common to see high-tier characters such as Superman and Thor being hurt by things that sometimes barely destroy a city-block or less, even though in certain of those very cases we got the narration saying it had the power to destroy the planet or something of the sort. We know the energy of this explosion comes from Dormammu's own attack with all his power behind, so given we're talking about one of the most powerful characters in the Marvel-verse by feats and statements, I can't believe someone in their sane mind would think it's only nuke level(It's extremely unlikely that Dormammu would've even been able to take over the Earth if only this level of power could defeat him). It's even funnier for you say such a stupid thing when considering that Superman Prime who was going toe-toe with Monarch, was actually hurt by a town level attack(Visually speaking, too)...Which also happened in the very same fight where the former managed to survive the universal destruction of Monarch's armor, something that would be impossible if the previous attack was only town level as it seemed. See how visual proof sometimes means shit when asserting the power of an attack or/and explosion? Besides, I could easily argue that since the attack was magical in nature(Its energy came from Dormammu, after all), raw-power doesn't mean everything as magic is about making the impossible happen by literally altering the fabric reality and thus your point is moot regardless.

Dormammu stomps.

Monarch is Galactus‘s level.

Dormammu would still stomp.

This site and its love for anything related to Dr Strange is amusing.

Dormammu gets beaten by Magik, brutalized by Absorbing Man and oneshotted by Ancient One (a cheapshot) in last few appearances but he is going to beat Monarch here.

Simply laughable.

@motifian: the Absorbing Man instance had context. Creel absorbed properties of an anti-magic plot device. I'm willing to bet other instancies you mentioned also had context.

OT: Dormammu one-shots.

Dormy is one league above.

Captain Atom's skin is made of anti magic dilustel metal too and its so powerful that mirabai channeling all of sorcerer world's magic couldn't do anything to him (even 5th dimension magic comes from sorcerer world).

Read Uncanny X men 7 2013. Magik straight up made Dormammu cry uncle.

https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Uncanny-X-Men-2013/Issue-7?id=11111

When Dormammu can oneshot Dr Strange, he might be able to tickle Monarch. Seriously the sheer wank for Dormammu is out of hand here. Guy can't even manage a few mindless ones and we are supposed to see him beating Monarch ? Be serious.

@motifian: Dormammu gets beaten by Magik

Already debunked:

And it’s also arguable Dormammu was weakened in some capacity due to Magik’s limbo going nuts. Regardless, him hurting Dormammu was nothing but fan service and bad writing.

I don't think it's arguably anymore, like, Dormmamu went straight up to Magik in Uncanny X-Men(2013)#5 and told her word-by-word that was pretty much dying and was going cease to exist given the effects of Limbo on the Dark Dimension(His source of power), which was being ripped apart:

And the exchange above was before the whole deal with the X-Men and Cyclops by quite some time IIRC, meaning the effects became even more severe. They even started Uncanny X-Men(2013)#7 with a dialogue from Magik and Doctor Strange discussing that's extremely abnormal why Dormammu even attacked Limbo only now, corroborating to the idea that Dormmy came to stop Magik's powers over the dimension from destroying his own and killing him:

Now, I don't pretend to know exactly how much Dormammu was weakened, but the pieces of evidence point out to a considerable level if had to do all that was so desperate if believed that was going to die because of it. Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the topic in specific. Sorry to suddenly intromit myself in the talk. Every time Dormammu's connection to the Dark Dimension is damaged/compromise in some form or way, he gets substantially weaker since most of his powers are fused to the Dark Dimension itself. Just for you to get an idea of how much I'm talking about it, The All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z#3 is from where his most recent Bio in Handbooks was published and it still mentions that Dormammu had an enormously boast when first merged his essence to the Dark Dimension:

Still, I'm quite glad you mentioned this particular instance. It works for me by showing your great >lack< of knowledge about the character, amirite.

brutalized by Absorbing Man

I just love how you purposely left things out of context, while I'm not surprised by such tactic given your reputation here from what I know so far, let's still not forget to mention how Creel just had absorbed the Black Crystal which given its nature, completely negates Dormammu's powers as shown in S.H.I.E.L.D(2015)#6:

Which of course, is exactly what happened:

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Creel had literally become a walking kryptonite against Dormammu's own powers, which's the only reason why didn't get stomped by the Dread. Still, we're going to let this part out and make it seem like Absorbing Man did all of this without such plot-device backing him up, right? And giving the Black Crystal doesn't have low-showings, I think you'll find hard to scale it. I'm pretty sure you're planning on pulling some scans about Captain Atom's being anti-magic(Even though Dreamslayer, a pathetic mystical excuse of Dormammu has once one-shotted him), but guess what? Dormammu's powers are as much as cosmical as are magical per his very words back in DefendersVol.3#2, so this tactic won't work. Besides, since it's been shown in S.H.I.E.L.D#5 that the Black Crystal also nullifies Wiccan's powers, it's safe to say it does work against cosmic-like energies too and isn't an outlier for negating Dormammu's own.

oneshotted by Ancient One (a cheapshot)

Okay, and is bad feat against Dormammu because...? If anything, it's just a good feat for that version of Ancient One. Yao had ascended to the higher planes and became one with the cosmos, thus acquiring knowledge that no other being has and this is something Waid has made very clear in Doctor Strange(2018)#9:

So much that only his very knowledge is what allowed Kanna, Wong and Zelma take upon some of the most powerful mystical entities in the multiverse(The Faltine Elders) two comics later while only being street-levels themselves before in Doctor Strange(2018)#11. Plus, Dormammu had already tanked their combined attacks while amped by the Ancient One:

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So it's obvious how Ancient One one-shotted him after Dormammu was left weakened by their combined attacks. Waid's take on the Ancient One is quite high since if wasn't, none of the showings against the Faltine Elders would've been possible in the first place.

Simply laughable.

If you're talking about your points, yeah, they're laughable. You're not unknown to me, I've already seen your bias in action during debates against Bruce_Rogers, so I'll say only this: I've got no problems in showing how wrong your posts are, feel free to give me a few laughs with them if you want.

@motifian: When Dormammu can oneshot Dr Strange, he might be able to tickle Monarch. Seriously the sheer wank for Dormammu is out of hand here. Guy can't even manage a few mindless ones and we are supposed to see him beating Monarch ? Be serious.

You mean like Dormammu already did in Avengers#118?

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You really know your stuff, hum? And I find hilarious the Mindless One comment considering the only time Dormammu had a problem with them was in a weakened state and inferior body way back during his very first appearance in Strange Tales#127.

@alphaelli: Wow, the leap of logic from "Dark Dimension falling apart" to "Dormammu was weakened" is just amazing. Did you do it yourself or someone helped? Because it's never mentioned that Dormammu was weakened.

Anti magic bullet didn't negate Dormammu's power, it weakened him as he still had his power after shot by a bullet made of it.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/23211107/S.H.I.E.L.D._2014-_006-013.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/23211110/S.H.I.E.L.D._2014-_006-014.jpg.html

Way to crop up the scans though.

Tell me, are you incapable of reading or looking at pretty pictures? Because it never said Dormammu's powers were negated.

Yes, yes, circlejerk is always so good. So ancient one is what now, an abstract perhaps? BTW, Dormammu was never shown or implied to be weakened when Ancient One oneshotted him.

Yep, Dormammu who gets regularly defeated by Dr Strange is supposed to beat Monarch. Pass the crack buddy.

Oh yes, Bruce Rogers (the guy who got stomped everytime). I recognized the tendency to leap to the bizarre conclusion right away. Carry on, let's see what do you have.

Dormammu stomps.

Dormammu eats him alive, regardless of Motifian's hilarious fanfiction.

Motifian "Superman has multiversal strength" strikes again.

@motifian: Wow, the leap of logic from "Dark Dimension falling apart" to "Dormammu was weakened" is just amazing. Did you do it yourself or someone helped? Because it's never mentioned that Dormammu was weakened.

No counter-arguments as usual? Gotcha. I just love how you pretty much ignored everything and didn't address any of the key-parts like the character's own words about being desperate because seems rapidly dying thanks to convergence, established info like an official handbook confirming the direct connection of the Dark Dimension with his powers, Strange's conversation with Magik and so on. All I see is the typical BS from your posts like underplaying the opposition's arguments while having no concrete evidence of your own, honestly.

Anti magic bullet didn't negate Dormammu's power, it weakened him as he still had his power after shot by a bullet made of it.

Such advanced reading and interpretation skills, I'm baffled by them. Hey, genius, maybe you should read what I wrote more carefully before adressing an argument and/or points I didn't even make? For starters, I wasn't talking about when that SHIELD Agent shot the bullet on Dormammu, but when Creel directly absorbed the powers of the Black Crystal before attacking him? Or maybe you're the one who can't pay attention to the events in the comics?

I don't know if this is too much information for your adorable bird-brain to process, but Dormammu wasn't only shoted by the black bullet, Creel also absorbed it. That's why Dormammu's powers didn't work on him and that's why I said they were negated, only you who can miss such a big info like usual. Before you even try to argue against, they even confirmed those crystal things are indeed the same material of the black bullet:

Tell me, are you incapable of reading or looking at pretty pictures? Because it never said Dormammu's powers were negated.

You perfectly summed up my thoughts about you, Motifian. Oh really? I guess Creel absorbing the same material as the bullets isn't enough proof to Dormammu's powers were negated then? You can really make me and everyone in the Vine laugh, dear.

Yes, yes, circlejerk is always so good. So ancient one is what now, an abstract perhaps? BTW, Dormammu was never shown or implied to be weakened when Ancient One oneshotted him.

So interesting you say that given the last time the Ancient One ascended to the higher planes, yes, he did become as powerful as Eternity as shown in Doctor Strange, Master of the Mystic Arts#13:

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That's not my argument though. Ancient One had acquired knowledge beyond mortal compression by then, so much that T.Hothrun called him the most adapted sorcerer in the universe and it was Ancient One's very knowledge that stopped the Faltine Elder invasion. Never implied? Oh yes, because it's not like before getting cheap-shotted by the Ancient One, Dormammu held back a surprise attack from Kanna/Wong/Zelma who had...Surprising it! Ancient One's own knowledge! This shows that yes, it weakened him just like also happened with the other Faltine Elders when attacked by those three(Something explicitly mentioned in the comic).

Yep, Dormammu who gets regularly defeated by Dr Strange is supposed to beat Monarch. Pass the crack buddy.

Another thing that I also debunked:

Most of his defeats to Strange are a unique case because it's surrounded by many factors/circumstances that aren't applicable here, I think the post below explains quite well:

First off....It's so easy to say that when ignoring all the context of most of Dormammu's fights against Strange(Most had Dormmy weakened while also having Strange exploiting some sort of plot to win) and Stephen is a character written in a way to be able to accomplish that given many of his very unique advantages over Dormammu that no one else has, such as years of fighting and extremely knowledgeable in tactics against Dormmy( He's also someone more versatile when dealing with mystical entities given his status as SS, whose sole responsibility is to protect the Earth Dimension from beings like the Dread One). Strange's knowledge about him gets to a point where Stephen practically knows beforehand every spell or any action that Dormammu even thinks to make:

Stephen also carries the Eye, which many Bio's states being extremely toxic to creatures of darkness and has been shown by the Handbook to make beings like Dormammu experience unbearable pain:

And this was explicitly shown in Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#01, for example:

Or the fact that Dormammu usually underestimates Strange thanks to their strong rivalry( Not shared with any other character in all Marvel) and Strange uses this as an advantage (One of the many of them that I mentioned before), thus he tries to make Dormammu play by his rules instead. This results in Dormmy only toying with Strange the whole time, as shown during Strange Tales#141:

And we need to add the very oath stopping Dormammu for coming to the Earth-Dimension during the beginning of their first fights as well(Strange Tales#127):

Which helped Stephen even more since severely weakened and drained Dormammu everytime the same tried to come to our world(Doctor Strange#173):

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Another advantage is Strange being the SS and thus know how to exploit better the Earth-Dimension as a battlefield against mystical threats and even trick Dormmy by using the knowledge of the same, which Dormammu pretty much pointed out during Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#01:

This is what Dormammu said about Strange beating him in the past and Umar even agreed:

Strange even had a lesson direct from the Ancient One(Someone who knows more about Dormmy than anyone in the multiverse) to more or less deal with Dormammu:

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You've been forgetting one of the most important things in all of Dormammu's fights against Strange too. Do you seriously believe that all and every writer in Marvel portray Strange at the same level? Have you ever thought that some might think of him well above your label? Strange was created by Stan Lee and Ditko to be the ultimate protector of his dimension against cosmic and mystical beings and most of the writers that have him trade some spells with Dormammu are also the same ones who share this line of thought. Strange has been shown multiple times by some of them to be the most powerful human and hero on Earth, The Amazing Spider-Man Vol.2#57-58is a good example of this:

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See? Losing or having a hard time against Strange means almost nothing if the same writer sees the later as one of the most powerful beings on Earth and in the universe. If we're going to follow such unreasonable logic and apply to every character that Strange fought and stalemated/defeated then even the abstract Death isn't at Odin's level. She couldn't even take his soul by force and then had to use an indirect approach by trying to convince him(Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#45):

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Death herself questioned her ability to defeat him in the same issue and admitted that would take a supreme effort as well:

So now Death is below Odin? She's not even skyfather level, right? You see....Just because a character struggle with another one doesn't mean much if many outside factors are involved. Comics don't always follow a circular logic and most writers aren't even caring about power-levels and this whole Battle Forum debates...They're interested mostly in the storyline and if that demands Strange to match Dormammu or even defeat him, so be it. Stephen survived against Death during two other different times, for example during Doctor Strange, Master of the Mystic Arts#04:

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Stephen didn't defeat her without Eternity's aid, but Death clearly struggled against him. Dormammu is and always been marginally above Strange magical-wise, which most his most modern Bio even confirms that Dormmy's power dwarfs that of any sorcerer(And you seem to love Handbooks after all):

Marvel Encyclopedia#1 even explicitly says that Strange is less powerful:

Given the level of your arguments and how serious you present them to me, I believe you're the one who needs time away from what seems and can only be a drug cocktail.

Oh yes, Bruce Rogers (the guy who got stomped everytime). I recognized the tendency to leap to the bizarre conclusion right away. Carry on, let's see what do you have.

You live in an interesting reality if that's what you think about the debates between you two. Well, who am I to interfere in the personal delusions of people after all? Still, if what I just witnessed above is what you've got to offer, I can see why most users joke about you.

@alphaelli: You mean when Dormammu had evil eye?

You mean like Umar (With Dormammu's power) being scared and openly admitting that mindless ones are beyond her?

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/oQnw-1b0-SfMX60ckKZwHRJomrWxQxlqB8X_eDeoU3xaferF0IFkPw3jRikRhu1R0Yf3BWgwywb1=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pG3eFQ9YWaYllICpdnACFSwLJTjrfnQnCRIyorHnCl6oVboCXowfUuDx3qEqeVOtHAhBfPDvJJAp=s1600

@brucerogers said:

You do have a new found respect from me, Bruce. I can't even begin to think what's like debating with someone like him on somewhat of a daily basis.

@motifian: You mean when Dormammu had evil eye?

LOL. At this point, I'm pretty sure you're just trying to pick any scans/arguments on the internet to help your case. Yes, Dormammu had the Evil Eye, but guess what? I debunked the notion of being an amp in the way you're suggesting:

given he was actually amped at that moment with Evil eye).

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Since when does the Evil Eye even AMP someone? When was even stated that? The Evil Eye is a like pistol. Does holding one make you faster? No. Does it make you stronger? No. Does it make you smarter? No. Nowhere in any canon source and in the part where describe the Evil Eye's functions even mention the ability to amp someone's power:

Dormammu was also using the Evil Eye to STRICTLY merge the dimensions and all the blasts came from HIS OWN HAND. Most people think Dormammu was amped because of this:

More especially this part: "But now, with the power of the Evil Eye behind me, a single wave of my hand". What they fail to understand is that Dormammu isn't saying that now is more powerful thanks to the power of the Evil Eye, but saying that now because of the Evil Eye's power, the oath which limited/weakened him when entering the two dimensions doesn't work anymore...After all, they're merging into ONE DIMENSION. Backed up by Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#23:

If it did, then tell how a universal object didn't amp the stats/power of their own owners in order to overcome street-level characters like Iron Fist?:

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Or mid-tiers like Human Torch?:

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So either the Evil Eye doesn't amp its user or is literally an INSIGNIFICANT amp that shouldn't be even taken into account. I'm saying all this because you once tried to discredit Dorm's feats because claimed he was amped by the Evil Eye. Yes, Dormammu might use the Evil Eye as a weapon against Uatu but that doesn't prove your other point of him being afraid or weaker...Doesn't change that was also an inferior version of Dormammu anyway. It's not like Strange who used his power TOGETHER WITH the Eye, Dormammu was focusing the weapon to merge the realms and not amp his own powers.

So it was all under his own power, darling.

You mean like Umar (With Dormammu's power) being scared and openly admitting that mindless ones are beyond her?

There's nothing proving that Umar still had her brother's powers at that point, even The Mysterious World of Doctor Strange doesn't mention them, only some of Eternity's. Even then, Umar's first appearance shows her easily dealing with the Mindless Ones by herself, so the showing is already nullified by another.