Dormammu vs Celestials

Thanks, but i have to disagree here.

Eternity wasnt hurt but he left in between the battle, in fact eternity doesnt once attack Dormammu, he is the one going kamakazi, and when eternity leaves he gets hit by 2 planets and Dormammu is KOed.

If you look at the first plane of the second scan you posted you will realise Eternity disappeared.

ctually my whole point was Dormammu did not do anything to the M-body of eternity he fought, Eternity teleported away, he got crashed into 2 planet, and was BFRed into the realm where Clea lived.

This is better explained a couple of issues later when Dormammu himself explained what happened after Eternity's fight, where he himself says Eternity vanished before Dormammu could do anything to him.

Dormammu sort of knew he couldnt do anything to Eternity, the scans if from Strange Tales 172

The question that presents itself is why did Eternity disappear, was he hurt, did he run away?

As strange as it may sound, subsequent issue and bio says its because Eternity did not care, will post scans below under Nightmare.

I disagree, when Eternity himself was freed this is what Eternity says

"Pitiful power crazed fools can such as you truly image you could conquer Eternity? That you held him helpless even for an instance, you bound me after my battle with Dormammu but why should i not have allowed you where the month you held me was nothing to me."

We even see Dr. Strange thinking "What is he saying he could have freed himself all along?"

This is further imposed by next page where Dr. Strange after realizing Eternity only allowed Nightmare to capture him, for apparently not good reasons says:

"I risked my life , my soul, to rescue one beyond conquest, as he is beyond emotions".

So as weird as it may be, its back on panel and even by handbook :)

Lets took at Marvel Handbook 2006

As it reads ".... but Eternity only let Nightmare think he was in his thrall, and ultimately banished Nightmare to Oblivion".

What subsequent issues and bio point is that Eternity was beyond anything Dr. Strange , Dormammu and Nightmare could comprehend.

Furthermore, Strange Tales 147, Dr. Strange is trying to make sense of what happened between Eternity and Dormammu and this is what he comes up with.

What he says here is : "Though i know he couldn't not have perished, yet i cannot fathom why he suddenly vanished. Did he but choose to disappear, for some reason of his own, or did he too suffer from the forces unleashed by Dormammu".

So we know Dr. Strange couldnt understand what is happening, so he makes 2 guesses.

1. Eternity disappeared for reason only known to him.

2. Eternity was destroyed by Dormammu's forces.

Both on panel evidence and bio points to the first one being correct, :)

I am open to being convinced otherwise, if you have anything to add. I have read every appearance of Dormammu till date so i find it a little unlikely but if you can, i will tip my hat in respect.

hehe its not that i dont like Dormammu, i do, i have actively made cases for Dormammu against guys like Neptune or Darkseid, but no i dont agree on the last part that Dormammu being beyond comparable to Zeus.

1. Dormammu himself compares him with the likes of Odin and Zues.

2. Marvel Handbook written before this sort of backs it up

3. Avengers Vol 1, 118, shows him as inferior to Watcher, because the moment Watcher shows up Dormammu is scared, and given the emphasis he puts on how he would fight even the watcher, i would say that shows Dormammu is below Watcher, and note Dormammu had evil eye , a massive amp when this happened.

Gallery

4. Neither Eternity nor Living Tribunal were shown as a villian, we also know that Dormammu was stated to be inconsequential against someone like Arioch, so there is little to suggest Dormammu was on par with Eternity , in fact everything shows otherwise.

So you tell me, both on panel evidence and bio backs him being there or there abouts in terms of power with a skyfather, in fact he himself compares his power with skyfather.

And apart from fighting and losing against Eternity, and i have seen no evidence to suggest Eternity was hurt or down for the count in the fight , i welcome you to puts evidence why you would believe he is above Skyfather using on panel feats, and i can put up feats from skyfathers.

Lets compare and see if i can make you think my way, coz i honestly believe between Odin, Surtur and Neptune (who isnt even a skyfather, just a notch below) i should be able to match every feat from 616 Dormammu, performed without an amp.

I dont know man, i dont like the idea of people thinking they would know better than official publication of marvel but what feat can you show form either Zom or Dormammu that would contradict the bio.

The only thing i can think of would be Zom vs Dormammu and Eternity, which we never saw on panel, apart from a second hand references from Umar, and handbook, and Zom himself saying he fought. We dont know where the fight took place, for all we know Zom was likely stomped without him having done anything. We also dont know what Eternity did,but we do know that Eternity is amoral, and does things hard to make sense of.

If you can show me panel evidence, something more substantive than hyperboles , perhaps something driven from on panel clear feats, i would welcome a discussion.

Lets see how far we go.

Sorry man cant do anything about my chronology thread, the new comicvine makes it impossible to copy / paste images, and hence i have to personally upload images. I can only upload 70 images in a go and have to wait for someone else to post before i can continue.

In short, its nearly impossible for me to make a chronology threads anymore, thank you comicvine for ruining 10 of my threads and thanks to u i have no scans save of Thanos and Warlock, because i trusted comicvine. :@

Was 7am a he or a she? I always thought it was a he but well.

And sure will have a look and lets see what i can add :)

@killemall:

Sorry man cant do anything about my chronology thread, the new comicvine makes it impossible to copy / paste images, and hence i have to personally upload images. I can only upload 70 images in a go and have to wait for someone else to post before i can continue.

In short, its nearly impossible for me to make a chronology threads anymore, thank you comicvine for ruining 10 of my threads and thanks to u i have no scans save of Thanos and Warlock, because i trusted comicvine. :@

I can bump a thread(s) if you want, so you can post again (other issues notwithstanding).

Sounds like a pretty good offer, i will be free tomorrow in the afternoon (5pm Perth Standard time) if i find you online then i will ask you for help and then i can start uploading the scans :)

Its going to be a very long day of work btw so prepared to bump the thread a lot often because i have over 100 folders i have to upload :)

Lets see how much we can finish tomorrow, then i will again ask your help when i try and make Zeus thread (i have collected most of his feats already , shouldnt take a long time)

@killemall

Wow, once again, very solid scans man. Your central opinion about Dorm's power level and the events of his fight with Eternity are certainly justifiable, but still very debatable.

The one scan you show from the 90's Marvel Premier show Dorm blatantly compare himself to Odin and company, so he was clearly was intended by that writer to be only around skyfather level at that time. But still, this was 90's Dorm around the IG timeline, and you've argued with me enough times to know that my opinion is that he went from a borderline universe-buster to a shlub from the 60s to mid-90s (if you disagree with that, i'm fine having a separate discussion about his power fluctuation since his origin...I could dig through my old Strange Tales and we could compare evidence). And even in the 90's I remember something about Dormammu mentioning that he has the power to destroy the Dark Dimension when Mordo and everyone rise up against him...which is not consistent with a simple skyfather's galaxy-busting capabilities.

Also, one thing I believe you misinterpreted with the Dormammu-Eternity battle, Eternity had not disappeared yet when the planets were flying around and eventually hit Dormammu...those planets WERE Eternity, and Dormammu flew inside of him. Check out the panel where Dormammu charges him real quick...

There were not planets or any sort of celestial bodies floating around outside of the three characters before this page. Then we see Dormammu fly into Eternity and unleash his attack, we then see planets collide, burn, and crumble (both during and immediately following the attack). Dr. Strange states that the substance of Eternity is being disintegrated by Dormammu's attack, (and we can even see it happening on panel), and it's then that Dr. Strange can no longer sense Eternity's avatar...only the maelstrom of flying celestial bodies that once encompassed him. Eternity's avatar "disappeared" in much the same way that a dog who swallowed a live grenade would disappear...there were pieces of him flying all over the place.

Strictly going by what I perceive as the clear intention of the writer (Denis Oneil), the only way i see to explain this is that Eternity got jacked up. The idea that that the writer meant for Eternity to pointlessly disappeared as we see his embodiment getting blown apart seem like a stretch to me. And I never noticed this before, but even in the splash page of this issue, it teases the story with:

"The final cataclysmic clash of creations mightiest mystics!" At the time of this issue, I don't even think there's meant to be any hyperbole in that statement, there really weren't any mystic characters introduced that were above the two of them...and even if it is an exaggeration, you have to admit it's a pretty lame story to have this sort of a buildup when the gameplan is to have the fight go:

Step 1) Dormammu attacks Eternity.

Step 2) Dormammu scatters Eternity's embodiment all over the place, but it somehow doesn't bother him at all...ahah, it was all part of Eternity's master plan.

Step 3) Eternity purposely lets his M-Body vanish, for no reason, then some of the planets that Dorm knocked around wack him into another dimension.

And the scans you show where Eternity taunts Nightmare I don't think have any direct bearing on Dormammu; Nightmare has put Eternity to sleep on multiple occasions, yet Dr. Strange was able to completely wipe the floor against a thoroughly-prepped Nightmare in his own realm after he gained the sorcerer supreme mantle...so the fact that Dr. Strange is still nowhere close to Dormammu's equal in pure mystic power further demonstrates how freaking strong Dormammu is supposed to be...at least back then.

Depends on the Celestials. Is it random cannon fodder Celestials or higher tier ones that can give Galactus a good beat down?

Thanks, although i am afraid we are still not at an agreement.

This has me more curious, so if you believe Dormammu power level had already changed by 90 and the scans is from 1991 so thats early 90 as opposed to mid, which story arc did you see the change.

And sorry but yes i would like a discussion on why you would believe Dormammu is a boderline universe-buster. Look through the collection you have, and lets see what evidence you can bring. Also note bring up scans is not mandatory, i have every Dormammu appearance thus far, both canon and otherwise, so at best you have to tell me the issue number or you can just even vaguely give me a summary of the arc and i could come up with scans.

Do note that i do not like empty derivals or mere hyperbole, but rather on panel feat. I honestly dont think there is a issue of Dormammu i have not read, and unless is something minor that i overlooked, apart from his fight with Eternity there really is nothing suggesting he is a boderline universal buster. But i am willing to be proven wrong.

2 Things:

1. It was said that the resulting war between Dormammu vs Umar and Baron Mordo (with Dr. Strange present but not having choosen a defined side , alongside Clea) was stated to have potential to destroy the Dark Dimension, which is a collection of multiple small pocket realities as opposed to a full fledged universe anyways.

2. Secondly Thor: Everthing Burns, Surtur was about to destroy Asgardia pocket universe with mere release of his flames, he was in fact going to burn the entire multiverse had he not been stopped. Odin vs Seth fight was nearly said to destroy the very fabric of the multiverse. So i would say that well within capabilities of a skyfather.

3. Thats also a statement, not an outright fact, and better hyperbolic statement has been said in regards to skyfather.

We have a statement that Kubik vs Super Adaptoid with power of Kubik would destroyed infinite dimensions and universe , and Kubik by his own admission and bio is less powerful than a Celestial, so statement are statement, on panel clear , unambiguous feats are different.

Thank you for the first part, but i disagree on the rest. I did not notice Dormammu going into the Eternity, but anything apart from that as in Eternity being harmed, Eternity having ran away because he was too weak, and stuffs like that was not said on the issue.

And thats directly contradicted by other subsequent issues, this is when Dormammu himself explains what happened against Eternity, during Strange Tales 172

In the second panel Dormammu says

"Thus with Disdain i do hurl this awesome spell at your mocking visage. But.... wait! Even as Eternity vanishes... the spell rebounds back against me--!".

So yeah Dormammu went Kamakazi, used all his powers but Eternity vanished before he was hit, and the spell came back at him.

I disagree because Denny O'Neil also wrote the very next issue of Dr. Strange where this is what Dr. Strange says:

He essentially opened a doorway to interpreting Eternity might have just left for reason of his own.

Why not. Quest for Eternity was his series as well, and it was pretty much 6 issues of Dr. Strange searching heaven and earth to find Eternity so he can ask him for help against Dormammu and Mordro. The series ended with Eternity says its good you found me but i am not going to help you. So i suppose its ok.

I still dont understand, the very next issue the same writer keeps it ambiguous on what happened against Eternity. Then we have both on panel as well as bio confirming that Eternity step 2 and step 3 was exactly what happen, i dont see how of why you would argue against in.

A clear on panel future evidence on a story is not something you can argue against man.

Not sure why not, after all that was Eternity next appearance after his fight with Dormammu, so that should have as direct bearing to what happened in Dormammu fight against Eternity as it gets, after all it explains in more detail what happened in the fighting, something which was left ambigious and has been addressed as ambiguous in multiple issues: Strange Tales 147, Strange Tales 151 , Strange Tales 172 and Strange Tales 180.

Secondly not sure what Nightmare being able to get Eternity to fall sleep, by manipulating too many people within Eternity has anything to do with it, thats the very definition of plot which by no means point that Nightmare is anywhere close to power level in Eternity.

Then you believe Dr. Strange is no where close to Dormammu, when Dr. Strange has fought and beaten Dormammu multiple times, yes plot were involved, but it was never meant to be one sided.

After all the biggest advantage Dormammu has over Strange and his sister Umar, is not that he is leagues and bounds more powerful than them, but because he is a being of pure mystical energy making him a more proficient magic user.

Besides Dr. Strange power level changes very wildly even in classic days.

@laylah@claymore1998

@ancient_god: the argument already seem to address everything. I honestly don't have anything novel to add to this discussion. Perhaps let's wait for Laylah to see if she's got something.

@claymore1998:I don't have nothing to address, but there's a lot of things I disagree.

For example, I don't see why Dormammu showed to be inferior to the Watcher....Dorm outright says about fighting him if necessary. Also, the Evil Eye of Avalon isn't any amp too, much less a massive one.

@laylah: I suppose but I can sort of understand the argument too. Dormammu does seem concerned about the Watcher's presence and he does utter even you as if he is putting stress on it. The way it was phrased does seem to suggest he was genuinely concerned about Watcher's appearance.

Evil Eye wasn't an amp but it's still a pretty powerful weapon when you think about it. While amp might not have been the best word to describe it I can understand the argument because having a weapon does put you in a favorable position.

@claymore1998: But I don't see showing inferiority.

Was Dormammu concerned about him? Yes, but this doesn't shows Dormammu to be below, in fact, I see different as Dorm was ready to fight him if needed.

Dormammu was only using the Evil Eye to merge the Dark Dimension and the Earth(This is all in the Handbook and the Book of the Vishanti, there's no indicative about him using as a weapon.

Dormy might be able to defeat one low tier Celestial.

@laylah: I understand your point, to be honest I don't think either is shown, his superiority or inferiority.

I think the fact that he stresses the word "even" seem to suggest he was really concerned. It could be constructed as him being inferior I suppose because why else would be be so concerned. Dormammu's willingness to fight people significantly more powerful than him is pretty well established given his skirmish with Eternity. I personally wouldn't argue too much around this point because Watcher's as such have the most inconsistent power portrayal in marvel cosmic hierarchy.

The evil eye is a powerful weapon though. Powerful enough to merge universes as well as enough to defeat Dormammu and Loki together. Granted he intended to use it to merge the 2 realms shouldn't take away the fact that he is in fact in possession of a pretty powerful weapon.

@claymore1998: This could be given to the Watcher's so sudden appearance and interference ( As Dormammu thought he would).

Really....Do you want to Dormammu blast the Watcher away? There wasn't any motive for him picking a fight and could be constructed as Dormammu not letting no one interfere, even cosmic entities such as the Watcher.

Eternity is a very different case give how the battle was portrayed and the evidences, which only came years later. Furthermore, this could be easily contradict with the instances against the Goddess, the Archenemy and other enemies.

I've a hard time believing Dormammu would use the Evil Eye as a weapon given it wasn't his objective and this would imply Dorm stopping the merging.

@laylah: Perhaps, perhaps not. I think the point was him being concerned is open to interpretation. Our interpretation on the matter differs but that's the beauty of it.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by Goddess, or the Archenemy or other enemies. I don't recall him ever fighting the Goddess apart from talking to him. He was pretty helpless against the Archenemy too its not like he did anything significant on his own. If anything he was forced to flee, not sure how that would contradict anything.

I also disagree on the last part , why would him intending to use a weapon to merge universe somehow preclude him for using it in an offensive manner ? A weapon is a weapon regardless how what Dormammu's primary objective might have been.

@claymore1998: Dormammu fled from both the Goddess and the Archenney.

If Dormammu's willingness is to fight people significantly more powerful than him is pretty well established, then why he didn't it? Why he searched Stephen and Magik( Besides other Hell-lords) to fight alongside with him?

Because this is the reason he searched the Evil Eye in the first place and the whole point of the entire story? Dormammu never showed any indicative of using in a offensive manner, in fact, he never showed anything outside of merging the dimensions.

Why he didn't use in the Avengers and Defenders then?

@laylah: Dormammu neither fought nor fled the goddess as far as I remember. The only thing that happened was he wanted Stephen to join him.

As per Archenemy he actually bulldozed through his dimension before Dormammu decided to flee it's not like he fled merely hearing the word. He even explained the carnage Archenemy had wrought.

@laylah: sorry missed the last part, give he was defeating them pretty easily why would he need to ?

@claymore1998: He did:

I just re-read the story about Archenemy and you're right about that though.

For dispatches them sooner? Even when Loki jumped against him, Dormammu was still using the Eye to merge the Dimensions.

Pretty sure just an average celestial can give him a decent fight. A group of them roasted Destroyer Odin. A well fed galactus got one shot by three of them fusing together and they were also giving Adult Franklin Richards some trouble, it should take no more than a few of them and 3 at best.

Just dropping this since debunks almost all of the arguments used and posted against Dormammu here: ✪Respect The Dread Dormammu: Lord Of The Dark Dimension!✪.

As for the thread itself, I say a few like three or four if we're realistically speaking.

Depends on the power of a Celestial honestly. Some can solo, and some would require like third of a host.

Dormammu could arguably beat one celestial, not more than that.

Just a couple.

Less than 1...

At the very least, 3.

I think he can’t beat all of them, given that he rivals Eternity in power while Eternity himself >>>>>>>> celestials.

What krle said

Some can solo.

People should stop pretending that all the Celestials are of the same power grade. For example Exitar is inferior to the fused one that utterly destroyed Galen.

On topic, Dormammu would most likely out-perform Knull and Odin.