Dormammu vs Celestials

-How many Celestials would it take to defeat Dormammu in The Dark-Dimension(if possible)?

Depends which Celestials you mean? I doubt he'd defeat the Fourth Host! Not sure how he'd fair against the top Celestials like Arisham, TOAA, Exitar etc After re-reading it and realizing in the dark dimenstion, not sure if they could defeat him there? Question, if he's all powerfull there, why does he want to leave it??

A couple.

The celestials would probably be too much for Dormy.

It might take them all, but the Celestials would likely win.

Celestials wins

Scathan does not approve of the Dark Dimension.

@LubeMan: From what I gather, to still maintain a presence over the main Marvel Dimension. His is a dimension besides, and only under certain regulation can he access the main(stream) dimension. Basically like Cyttorak, Chthon, and others.

@XiiX said:

@LubeMan: From what I gather, to still maintain a presence over the main Marvel Dimension. His is a dimension besides, and only under certain regulation can he access the main(stream) dimension. Basically like Cyttorak, Chthon, and others.

Thanx for the info dude

@LubeMan: Sure thing.

Several.

@XiiX said:

@LubeMan: From what I gather, to still maintain a presence over the main Marvel Dimension. His is a dimension besides, and only under certain regulation can he access the main(stream) dimension. Basically like Cyttorak, Chthon, and others.

Actually the only thing that prevents Dormammu coming to 616 is the oath taken by Dormammu against Dr. Strange. The first time Dr. Strange and Dormammu fight in Dark Dimension, Dormammu was winning the fight but because he had to use a lot of his focus on the fight with Dr. Strange and in doing so forgot to divert his concentration on the barrier that prevented the escape of The Mindless Ones. Once they escaped Dr. Strange helped Dormammu and Dormammu feeling he had to repay the help made a oath that he wouldnt come to earth directly, but still boiling in anger that someone finally managed to beat him.

One

@Killemall said:

@XiiX said:

@LubeMan: From what I gather, to still maintain a presence over the main Marvel Dimension. His is a dimension besides, and only under certain regulation can he access the main(stream) dimension. Basically like Cyttorak, Chthon, and others.

Actually the only thing that prevents Dormammu coming to 616 is the oath taken by Dormammu against Dr. Strange. The first time Dr. Strange and Dormammu fight in Dark Dimension, Dormammu was winning the fight but because he had to use a lot of his focus on the fight with Dr. Strange and in doing so forgot to divert his concentration on the barrier that prevented the escape of The Mindless Ones. Once they escaped Dr. Strange helped Dormammu and Dormammu feeling he had to repay the help made a oath that he wouldnt come to earth directly, but still boiling in anger that someone finally managed to beat him.

Thank you, once again. Didn't know any of these things. The Mindless one's? I've heard of them before, don't really know much about them? Have they appeared any where else?

@LubeMan: Yes fairly often. Dr. Strange has fought them, so has hulk, so has FF and so has Spiderman :)

Mindless ones as just beings who are pretty strong , but have no mind and are solely driven for one purpose and one purpose only, destruction. They live in Dark Dimension, where Dormammu has them locked behind a magic shield.

I am going with 42. 42 Celestials to destroy Dormammu amped with Umar and fully controlling Mindless Ones.

@Killemall said:

@LubeMan: Yes fairly often. Dr. Strange has fought them, so has hulk, so has FF and so has Spiderman :)

Mindless ones as just beings who are pretty strong , but have no mind and are solely driven for one purpose and one purpose only, destruction. They live in Dark Dimension, where Dormammu has them locked behind a magic shield.

So, does he have anything to do with them ie creation, or just houses them? He obviously can't control them.

Anyone Celestial below Exitar in rank or power.

@Killemall said:

@XiiX said:

@LubeMan: From what I gather, to still maintain a presence over the main Marvel Dimension. His is a dimension besides, and only under certain regulation can he access the main(stream) dimension. Basically like Cyttorak, Chthon, and others.

Actually the only thing that prevents Dormammu coming to 616 is the oath taken by Dormammu against Dr. Strange. The first time Dr. Strange and Dormammu fight in Dark Dimension, Dormammu was winning the fight but because he had to use a lot of his focus on the fight with Dr. Strange and in doing so forgot to divert his concentration on the barrier that prevented the escape of The Mindless Ones. Once they escaped Dr. Strange helped Dormammu and Dormammu feeling he had to repay the help made a oath that he wouldnt come to earth directly, but still boiling in anger that someone finally managed to beat him.

Yes, it is because of the oath ~ I'm going to have to agree with Killemall on this.

@LubeMan said:

@Killemall said:

@XiiX said:

@LubeMan: From what I gather, to still maintain a presence over the main Marvel Dimension. His is a dimension besides, and only under certain regulation can he access the main(stream) dimension. Basically like Cyttorak, Chthon, and others.

Actually the only thing that prevents Dormammu coming to 616 is the oath taken by Dormammu against Dr. Strange. The first time Dr. Strange and Dormammu fight in Dark Dimension, Dormammu was winning the fight but because he had to use a lot of his focus on the fight with Dr. Strange and in doing so forgot to divert his concentration on the barrier that prevented the escape of The Mindless Ones. Once they escaped Dr. Strange helped Dormammu and Dormammu feeling he had to repay the help made a oath that he wouldnt come to earth directly, but still boiling in anger that someone finally managed to beat him.

Thank you, once again. Didn't know any of these things. The Mindless one's? I've heard of them before, don't really know much about them? Have they appeared any where else?

The Mindless One were created accidently by Dormmammu when he was invading other Splinter Realms exanding the space and power of his Dimension. The More Splinter Realms he aquires in his conquest, the more Mindless Ones are created. And the Mindless Ones are very powerful per each of them are just as powerful if not; more than Juggernaut because they have no moral sense of value and reasoning, hence "mindless". (JFYI :: A Mindless Juggernaut is called Trion Juggernaut)

• Their strength is equal to a base strength Juggernaut
• Their durability and endurance are equal to the base of Juggernaut
• But there are millions of them
• They can fire concussive magical energy beams from their eyes

The Hulk fought them I think 3 or 4 times. The 1st time, he was nearly killed. The Last time, Dormammu saved his life, but turned him into stone shortly after.

The only problem with the Mindless Ones is that they are slow agility~wise. They are not nimble creatures.

That said, the Mindless Ones are the only things that keep Dormammu from taking over other Splinter Realms, because the more Splinter Realms he occupies, the more Mindless Ones are created for him to challenge his efforts with. He needs to contain them at a constant basis. And yet acknowleging this fact, brings a question for Dormammu against the Celestials. The Celestials are NOT indestructible. They can be physically defeated or defeated through 3rd dimensional means....

The same can not be mentioned for Dormammu nor the Mindless Ones.

@LubeMan said:

@Killemall said:

@LubeMan: Yes fairly often. Dr. Strange has fought them, so has hulk, so has FF and so has Spiderman :)

Mindless ones as just beings who are pretty strong , but have no mind and are solely driven for one purpose and one purpose only, destruction. They live in Dark Dimension, where Dormammu has them locked behind a magic shield.

So, does he have anything to do with them ie creation, or just houses them? He obviously can't control them.

He can control them. Just not directly...

@P0rtal said:

Anyone Celestial below Exitar in rank or power.

I don't know about that. The 4th Host was able to take down the Entirety of Asgard with simplistic ease. Exitar was slighly damaged by Thor's God Blast. But Dormammu has to deal with the Mindless Ones. Send a few Mindless Ones to Asgard and Asgard is destroyed by the end of the day. In my opinion, the Celestials are too 3rd Dimensional to beat Dormammu (or the Mindless Ones).

They clearly do not have a high tolerance to magic. Just like Galactus, who gets smoked by Mjolnir every time he gets hit with it. Magic seems to be the cosmic entities weak points, which is why I think any Celestial below Exitar in power should get beaten by Dormammu.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@P0rtal said:

Anyone Celestial below Exitar in rank or power.

I don't know about that. The 4th Host was able to take down the Entirety of Asgard with simplistic ease. Exitar was slighly damaged by Thor's God Blast. But Dormammu has to deal with the Mindless Ones. Send a few Mindless Ones to Asgard and Asgard is destroyed by the end of the day. In my opinion, the Celestials are too 3rd Dimensional to beat Dormammu (or the Mindless Ones).

ONE celestial would be too much for Dormammu....

@P0rtal said:

They clearly do not have a high tolerance to magic. Just like Galactus, who gets smoked by Mjolnir every time he gets hit with it. Magic seems to be the cosmic entities weak points, which is why I think any Celestial below Exitar in power should get beaten by Dormammu.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@P0rtal said:

Anyone Celestial below Exitar in rank or power.

I don't know about that. The 4th Host was able to take down the Entirety of Asgard with simplistic ease. Exitar was slighly damaged by Thor's God Blast. But Dormammu has to deal with the Mindless Ones. Send a few Mindless Ones to Asgard and Asgard is destroyed by the end of the day. In my opinion, the Celestials are too 3rd Dimensional to beat Dormammu (or the Mindless Ones).

In one story arc, Dr. Strange mentioned that Dormammu still had lots to learn about the universe before even being able to challenge the Celestials...He simply doesnt win here

@cosmic_reign said:

@P0rtal said:

They clearly do not have a high tolerance to magic. Just like Galactus, who gets smoked by Mjolnir every time he gets hit with it. Magic seems to be the cosmic entities weak points, which is why I think any Celestial below Exitar in power should get beaten by Dormammu.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@P0rtal said:

Anyone Celestial below Exitar in rank or power.

I don't know about that. The 4th Host was able to take down the Entirety of Asgard with simplistic ease. Exitar was slighly damaged by Thor's God Blast. But Dormammu has to deal with the Mindless Ones. Send a few Mindless Ones to Asgard and Asgard is destroyed by the end of the day. In my opinion, the Celestials are too 3rd Dimensional to beat Dormammu (or the Mindless Ones).

In one story arc, Dr. Strange mentioned that Dormammu still had lots to learn about the universe before even being able to challenge the Celestials...He simply doesnt win here

That was Strange going about with his assumptions that he does from time to time. It's only human to assume.

@Bo88gdan said:

One

Can he even beat 1?

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@cosmic_reign said:

@P0rtal said:

They clearly do not have a high tolerance to magic. Just like Galactus, who gets smoked by Mjolnir every time he gets hit with it. Magic seems to be the cosmic entities weak points, which is why I think any Celestial below Exitar in power should get beaten by Dormammu.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@P0rtal said:

Anyone Celestial below Exitar in rank or power.

I don't know about that. The 4th Host was able to take down the Entirety of Asgard with simplistic ease. Exitar was slighly damaged by Thor's God Blast. But Dormammu has to deal with the Mindless Ones. Send a few Mindless Ones to Asgard and Asgard is destroyed by the end of the day. In my opinion, the Celestials are too 3rd Dimensional to beat Dormammu (or the Mindless Ones).

In one story arc, Dr. Strange mentioned that Dormammu still had lots to learn about the universe before even being able to challenge the Celestials...He simply doesnt win here

That was Strange going about with his assumptions that he does from time to time. It's only human to assume.

An assumption of significance...otherwise it would not have been on panel.

@cosmic_reign said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@cosmic_reign said:

@P0rtal said:

They clearly do not have a high tolerance to magic. Just like Galactus, who gets smoked by Mjolnir every time he gets hit with it. Magic seems to be the cosmic entities weak points, which is why I think any Celestial below Exitar in power should get beaten by Dormammu.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@P0rtal said:

Anyone Celestial below Exitar in rank or power.

I don't know about that. The 4th Host was able to take down the Entirety of Asgard with simplistic ease. Exitar was slighly damaged by Thor's God Blast. But Dormammu has to deal with the Mindless Ones. Send a few Mindless Ones to Asgard and Asgard is destroyed by the end of the day. In my opinion, the Celestials are too 3rd Dimensional to beat Dormammu (or the Mindless Ones).

In one story arc, Dr. Strange mentioned that Dormammu still had lots to learn about the universe before even being able to challenge the Celestials...He simply doesnt win here

That was Strange going about with his assumptions that he does from time to time. It's only human to assume.

An assumption of significance...otherwise it would not have been on panel.

Ah, the significance of one phrase of one panel, but what about the entire context of the story?

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Ah, the significance of one phrase of one panel, but what about the entire context of the story?

Sorry to reply to old post, recently finished reading most of Dormammu 616 appearence at least from Comic Book DB, will check few more links before i reply.

Also it seem like a reasonable assumption based on the story arc, Dormammu after being born on earth himself stated his power is closer to Odin or Zues, and as his power was growing he also vowed to replace the celestials themselves as the greatest power in earth dimension, which he never did but given he had to vow something like that sort of shows Celestial are above Dormammu.

Furthermore, we know Dormammu was genuinely scared when Watcher showed up, and putting huge stress in his words he even said i will battle "even" you if i have to, certainly suggest Watcher is at the least just as powerful as Dormammu (given he was actually amped at that moment with Evil eye).

Then most of Dormammu's feat suggest he is closer to skyfather anyways, apart from him fighting Eternity and losing, but even when Umar look at that incident her words were "has my brother taken level of his senses", certainly suggest how big a difference between Eternity and Dormammu is, which is backed by 2 bios.

Dormammu is likely there or there about in power with skyfather, given his feats perhaps a little above but Celestial should be more powerful than him, most celestials that is.

We also know when Gaea unleashed her power Dormammu was defeated but same Gaea had to beg Arishem not to destroy earth.

In short consistent potrayal certainly supports (@cosmic_reign: ) stand as oppose to yours.

BTW feel free to ask for scans, i have all the scans here :) collected them for the chronology purpose, if you want i can even show you bios substantiated most of these stuffs.

Scans please?

celestials

A couple maybe..

scathan solos

I would have given you the link to the Dormammu chronology thread but apparently the change in site f*ked up chronology thread.

Anyhow, i have them in my hard disk, just give me a list of what scans you would like and i will post it :)

@thundergodswrath: Jean you never told me which particular scans you wanted to see? Was it the whole thing? Just let me know what scans you want to see, i have them all with me, i am just trying not to post too many scans coz it takes a long time. Re-read my reply and just tell me what particular scans you want, i can upload it man :)

Oh my bad, I want the scans of Dormammu VS Eternity please.

Sure although the fight is been left a little unclear so i will be posting information from few issues after as well as a couple of bios to give you a whole idea, which pretty much, in short is, Dormammu <<<< Eternity, and Dormammu is there or there about in terms of power level with Skyfathers.

Strange Tales 146

Gallery

So while you know Dormammu was destroyed we dont know what happened to Eternity.

Strange Tales 147: Dr. Strange recalls Dormammu vs Eternity and Strange realized Eternity could not have been destroyed.

Strange Tales 151: Umar peals back time to see what has happened to Dormammu. Upon seeing Dormammu about to fight Eternity her exact words were "by the seven rings of raggaddor, had my brother taken leave of his senses". Given that Umar and Dormammu are pretty much equal in terms of power, but Dormammu is a better magic user given his body now is pure magic, that shows how inferior Dormammu is to Eternity (same thing the bios will point out later)

Defenders Volume 3, Issue 02: While Eternity to some extent recalls fighting Dormammu, he chucks Dormammu as being inconsequential to someone like him.

To be fair Dormammu does manage to take down Eternity next issue but there is a bit of context involved:

1. There was a shift in cosmic axis which greatly empowered both Dormammu and Umar.

2. They have a unholy unison, so Umar's power was flowing through Dormammu.

3. Dormammu despite being amped by the first two, also had obtained the eye of Agamatto earlier in the same issue.

4. And finally defeating Eternity actually takes complete off panel.

Now lets look at few handbook.

Marvel Handbook 1992 pretty much says while it is unclear how Dormammu's power compares with skyfathers (later Dormammu himself said he was equal to Odin and Zeus) Eternity dwarfs Dormammu's powers.

Marvel Handbook 2006, the whole fight is been referred to, and it reads "Even Dormammu's power was no match for the universal embodiment".

So there the whole deal :)

@killemall: Thank you so much ! Also I have a question. Do you believe Dormammu is as powerful as his classic days, because a lot of beings like Hulk have became stronger since than, and than you have beings like Wonder Man who have become weaker. Where do you think Dormammu stands?

@thundergodswrath: Classic Dormammu = Current Dormammu, he is there or there about in terms of power level. His power hasnt drastically increased or decreased. Its just few people in comicvine try to show Dormammu as being a lot more powerful than he normally is. If 1992 bio sort of backs him being a skyfather level, thats pretty clear i would say.

@killemall: You must have a library of comic in your house man. And your scanner must take a beating :) I honestly don't know how you know all this stuff.

@killemall:

Yeah, but the scan with Strange shows him considering the possibility that Eternity disappeared because of the forces Dormammu unleashed; I really think that Dorm was supposed to have disembodied Eternity's avatar (at least temporarily) with that attack, I don't remember them ever clearly explaining what happened to Eternity after that explosion...but yeah, Eternity is generally still Dormammu's superior in a straight brawl.

And Umar's power isn't comparable to Dorm's, primarily because Dorm possesses the flames of regency and all the power of the Dark Dimension, while Umar just has her baseline mystic power.

I am just a marvel cosmic fanatic just love these stuffs what can i say. BTW its only marvel, i wont be able to explain anyone in such detail when we talk about DC, or if we talk about street level characters.

Or just for lol, at the moment i have 627 GB worth of digital comics with me :p

I see.

@fondofpacman: There was a clear explanation of what happened to Eternity, after he fought Dormammu, his avatar to some extent was weakened and Nightmare managed to bind him for a short time.

Gallery

Strange Tales 182 is Eternity next appearances , ignoring flashbacks, after his fight with Dormammu. Funny part was they called Eternity the "most powerful mystical entity of all".

@killemall: Good scans Killemall; always good to debate with someone who actually provides evidence to back up their opinions. It's an interesting point you bring up about Nightmare binding Eternity after his fight with Dorm, I've read that issue before but completely forgot about that.

But my point still stands that Eternity was essentially incapacitated or at least substantially wounded from Dormammu's attack, something I highly doubt we'll ever see a skyfather level character do.

We know that Nightmare subsequently bound Eternity, you yourself admit that Eternity must have at least been weakened from the fight, who himself refers to the encounter as a "battle" btw, not a failed attack or something. Also, Dr. Strange (who generally has a good grasp of events he witnesses) mentions that the impact threatens to destroy them both, and that "the substance of Eternity is being disintegrated by the force of Dormammu's attack", and it states on panel that Eternity "disappears". Eternity was essentially down for the count, then Nightmare siezed the opportunity to capture Eternity at some undisclosed point down the road. Unless you just don't really like Dormammu as a character, I still don't understand why you would say that "Its just few people in comicvine try to show Dormammu as being a lot more powerful than he normally is". Dr. Strange is the defender of 616, and has emphasized more than once that Dormammu is most likely the greatest continuing threat to his universe. Characters like the Living Tribunal and Eternity were conceived to be characters in Dr. Strange's comic series, which had stories meant to explore the boundaries of the Marvel universe--so to think that the prime antagonist to such a series could possibly be on par with Zeus and company seems absurd to me.

And although your handbook references to Dormammu and Zom's powers is certainly relevant in a battle discussion like this, it's pretty obvious that the writers of these issues were not the ones supplying that content...they were just guys that were trying their best to summarize the confusing and sometimes contradictory canonical writing for those characters.

@thundergodswrath:

IMO, Dormammu's one of those characters where it's probably best for you to form your own opinions about their standing within the Omniverse. Just imagine a character to be as strong as he's depicted to be in the comics you read most frequently--if Dorm's power/relevance is clearly downplayed in most of your comics, then it makes sense to think him to be weaker than he was in the classic strange days, it creates fewer of those continuity errors that take you out of the stories you most enjoy.

But yea, both him and Dr. Strange have seen a heavy decline in strength after Steve Englehart stopped writing their stories; Strange was de-powered especially harshly after Marvel planned for their company-wide crossover stories, like Secret Wars and Infinity Gauntlet, because they didn't want Dr. Strange to undermine the relevance of all their other heroes. Stan Lee himself mentioned that their stories are meant to emphasize excitement/intrigue over continuity, so writers inevitably crap all over the established power-levels of different characters, especially with the more metaphysical characters that are meant to have incomprehensible power...the line between a character possessing the power to destroy a planet and a character that can destroy an entire universe seems to be left intentionally blurry in most cases.

WOW.

Also, if you get that Dormammu chronology thread fixed/found/whatever, let me know, I'd like to see it.

Dormammu has been shown to be near Odin in power at times, weaker than cosmic cubes, which are far below Celestials...except when Dormammu does stuff like fight Eternity...and a Celestial loses to Thor.

Well said.

7AM left immediantly once presented with undisputable reasoning...shocker. By the way, if it helps you correct her, her exact arguments for extradimension=god can be found if you search arioch in the battles. The worst arguments i've ever heard. Also, would you mind looking at my top 100 characters/objects in the gen. discussion? Its the main reason I do anything on this sight.

who's weak against what now?