Well, Void is consistently unbeatable everytime he comes out. Funny to say, but the whole "calming him down" suits Sentry a lot better than Hulk. Atleast Sentry's dark side is consistently beating everybody he's put against.
Sentry's dark side never held up against the pre retcon Beyonder who was arguably one of the most powerful beings in the 616 universe. Not many people can make Galactus look like a chump on panel (looking at you stupid Spider-Man panel in Sentry's origins)
Did Bendis really make Molecule Man a jobbing inhuman? Because IIRC, he was stomping everybody but Sentry, its not like he's Spectre-like type of jobber, he just lost to Sentry, who apparently has a greater power than Molecule Man himself by merging his 2 sides. I wouldn't say it was Sentry per se... In that matter i disagree with Killemall, i think it was clearly visible Void was being used to do such thing, which i wouldn't doubt so much because he's supposedly an Old Testament God, which could comparable to the walking "No limits Fallacy" Ghost Rider represents because its connected to Christian Religion and omnipotent beings such as... Well... God.
Under reliable writing, he should have stomped Sentry too. The whole "Void's influence" or parallels between Old Testament kind of power shouldn't have been prioritised by Bendis' hax writing over Owen Reece's on panel vastly superior feats when instead, we get the Bendis treatment ruining the character's prior conceived power level of being able to own heroes and cosmic beings easily
Void is a certificated team buster, however, we haven't really seen his limit while fighting roosters, and he actually beat them without trying and even mocking the people he fights. Then comes the Molecule Man instance where he does exactly what he has done several times before... Beat his foe and mock him.
Nor did we see Molecule Man's limits. His potential vastly outweighed those who seemed equal to him in power. Case in point.
Also why does Molecule Man mocking his foes whilst Sentry doesn't make him superior to MM? And remember Void got into massive trouble when Loki gave the Norn Stones to a team of mostly street level heroes he was fighting during Siege. They were amped but they were still mostly street level heroes.
Im really sorry mate, but one of the things i think are awfully unreliable are Superman statements. He's a walking bullsh*t generator IMO. "Batman is the most dangerous man in the world", "Martian Manhunter is the most powerful being in the universe", "Captain Marvel is my equal"... 3 statements that are false.
a) Batman shouldn't be the most dangerous man in the world since we have Lex Luthor and the Flashes with time-altering abilities for example.
b) How is MMH more powerful than Ganthet? Emotional Entities? Spectre? Imperiex? Anti-Monitor? Phantom Stranger? Captain Atom? Even Darkseid should be considered above MMH. Hell, Despero mind raped MMH before, does that make Despero the most powerufl being in the universe? Nein... I wont take Superman statements as true.
c) Captain Marvel has no feats to suggest he's Superman equal, and it was mostly because Captain Marvel was created to be Superman's rival in classic days. That being said, the statement has no base whatsoever.
Not to mention, Superman has a "lightspeed" fight against Wonder Woman Post-Crisis IIRC... Superman didn't seem to go at lightspeed while fighting DoS Doomsday.
Oh so when Hulk gets a speed boost it's credible but when some grey monster DC creates is fast from the get go, it isn't reliable? If DD consistently tags Superman, which he always, always does when he fights Superman, it isn't reliable? Not to mention he can tag Wally, Wonder Woman and Orion who are all capable of superspeed. DD adapts his physiology exceptionally quickly depending on who he's fighting in terms of doing them harm and stopping attacks from harming him. It's exactly the same as Hulk's "angrier he gets, the stronger he gets" fallacy so I fail to see why DD should be disregarded when he consistently beats teams of foes that individually can solo the Hulk.
a) I will agree with you there even though these points of yours are basically miscontrruing my point
b) Sorry mate but you misquoted Superman. Here's what he actually says
Only Earth is referred to here.
c) Billy has strength feats that put him up there in Superman's league. Disgarding Loeb's biased fight, he's held his own against Superman in a straight up brawl. It's speed where Superman has Billy outclassed.
Finally, your other points fail to account for the power boost Superman went through after his death. He became more powerful in his feats after DD killed him so that factor undermines your point massively.
Precisely... PIS, in which "totally ignoring some abilities" "not using the whole powerset given" or "conveniently getting themselves hit" could be applied to. Why not punching him to outerspace? He doesn't fly... That would give them enough to time handle him or think of something. Nonetheless, Void itself its a walking PIS machine as well.
Because DD is a walking adaptive monster who can't be killed the same way twice and is capable of growing stronger and stronger in every fight and every weakness it's exposed to. Void on the other hand is just a teambuster with a good set of feats. That fight would be close though.
Well, Void is consistently unbeatable everytime he comes out. Funny to say, but the whole "calming him down" suits Sentry a lot better than Hulk. Atleast Sentry's dark side is consistently beating everybody he's put against.
Sentry's dark side never held up against the pre retcon Beyonder who was arguably one of the most powerful beings in the 616 universe. Not many people can make Galactus look like a chump on panel (looking at you stupid Spider-Man panel in Sentry's origins)
Did Bendis really make Molecule Man a jobbing inhuman? Because IIRC, he was stomping everybody but Sentry, its not like he's Spectre-like type of jobber, he just lost to Sentry, who apparently has a greater power than Molecule Man himself by merging his 2 sides. I wouldn't say it was Sentry per se... In that matter i disagree with Killemall, i think it was clearly visible Void was being used to do such thing, which i wouldn't doubt so much because he's supposedly an Old Testament God, which could comparable to the walking "No limits Fallacy" Ghost Rider represents because its connected to Christian Religion and omnipotent beings such as... Well... God.
Under reliable writing, he should have stomped Sentry too. The whole "Void's influence" or parallels between Old Testament kind of power shouldn't have been prioritised by Bendis' hax writing over Owen Reece's on panel vastly superior feats when instead, we get the Bendis treatment ruining the character's prior conceived power level of being able to own heroes and cosmic beings easily
Void is a certificated team buster, however, we haven't really seen his limit while fighting roosters, and he actually beat them without trying and even mocking the people he fights. Then comes the Molecule Man instance where he does exactly what he has done several times before... Beat his foe and mock him.
Nor did we see Molecule Man's limits. His potential vastly outweighed those who seemed equal to him in power. Case in point.
Also why does Molecule Man mocking his foes whilst Sentry doesn't make him superior to MM? And remember Void got into massive trouble when Loki gave the Norn Stones to a team of mostly street level heroes he was fighting during Siege. They were amped but they were still mostly street level heroes.
Im really sorry mate, but one of the things i think are awfully unreliable are Superman statements. He's a walking bullsh*t generator IMO. "Batman is the most dangerous man in the world", "Martian Manhunter is the most powerful being in the universe", "Captain Marvel is my equal"... 3 statements that are false.
a) Batman shouldn't be the most dangerous man in the world since we have Lex Luthor and the Flashes with time-altering abilities for example.
b) How is MMH more powerful than Ganthet? Emotional Entities? Spectre? Imperiex? Anti-Monitor? Phantom Stranger? Captain Atom? Even Darkseid should be considered above MMH. Hell, Despero mind raped MMH before, does that make Despero the most powerufl being in the universe? Nein... I wont take Superman statements as true.
c) Captain Marvel has no feats to suggest he's Superman equal, and it was mostly because Captain Marvel was created to be Superman's rival in classic days. That being said, the statement has no base whatsoever.
Not to mention, Superman has a "lightspeed" fight against Wonder Woman Post-Crisis IIRC... Superman didn't seem to go at lightspeed while fighting DoS Doomsday.
Oh so when Hulk gets a speed boost it's credible but when some grey monster DC creates is fast from the get go, it isn't reliable? If DD consistently tags Superman, which he always, always does when he fights Superman, it isn't reliable? Not to mention he can tag Wally, Wonder Woman and Orion who are all capable of superspeed. DD adapts his physiology exceptionally quickly depending on who he's fighting in terms of doing them harm and stopping attacks from harming him. It's exactly the same as Hulk's "angrier he gets, the stronger he gets" fallacy so I fail to see why DD should be disregarded when he consistently beats teams of foes that individually can solo the Hulk.
a) I will agree with you there even though these points of yours are basically miscontruing my point
b) Sorry mate but you misquoted Superman. Here's what he actually says
Only Earth is referred to here.
c) Billy has strength feats that put him up there in Superman's league. Disgarding Loeb's biased fight, he's held his own against Superman in a straight up brawl. It's speed where Superman has Billy outclassed.
Finally, your other points fail to account for the power boost Superman went through after his death. He became more powerful in his feats after DD killed him so that factor undermines your point massively.
Precisely... PIS, in which "totally ignoring some abilities" "not using the whole powerset given" or "conveniently getting themselves hit" could be applied to. Why not punching him to outerspace? He doesn't fly... That would give them enough to time handle him or think of something. Nonetheless, Void itself its a walking PIS machine as well.
Because DD is a walking adaptive monster who can't be killed the same way twice and is capable of growing stronger and stronger in every fight and every weakness it's exposed to. Void on the other hand is just a teambuster with a good set of feats. That fight would be close though.
Sentry's dark side never held up against the pre retcon Beyonder who was arguably one of the most powerful beings in the 616 universe. Not many people can make Galactus look like a chump on panel (looking at you stupid Spider-Man panel in Sentry's origins)
Precisely, as far as i know, they never fought. Nonetheless, i think the whole Void concept wasn't even created by the time Secret Wars happened.
Under reliable writing, he should have stomped Sentry too. The whole "Void's influence" or parallels between Old Testament kind of power shouldn't have been prioritised by Bendis' hax writing over Owen Reece's on panel vastly superior feats when instead, we get the Bendis treatment ruining the character's prior conceived power level of being able to own heroes and cosmic beings easily
Molecule Man didn't seem to be depowered, rather Sentry/Void got a huge boost implying his "supposed" destined power. Molecule Man actually beat him nigh effortlessly the first time, then he just regenerates and overpowers him on his own field.
Nor did we see Molecule Man's limits. His potential vastly outweighed those who seemed equal to him in power. Case in point.
We did see his limit, apparently, its Void. Not the same case with Void and the Helicarrier since after that Void got "toughness" feats WAY higher than that. The whole instance its sketchy, but it seems Voided Sentry posses greater Molecular control than Owen.
Also why does Molecule Man mocking his foes whilst Sentry doesn't make him superior to MM? And remember Void got into massive trouble when Loki gave the Norn Stones to a team of mostly street level heroes he was fighting during Siege. They were amped but they were still mostly street level heroes.
I don't know what you meant in the first sentence, but im going to assume you meant "Why does Void mocking his foes makes him superior to MM?" In that case, the mocking his foes doesn't make him superior... I was implying that in most cases, Void doesn't even try and its mostly toying with the mortals.
Oh so when Hulk gets a speed boost it's credible but when some grey monster DC creates is fast from the get go, it isn't reliable? If DD consistently tags Superman, which he always, always does when he fights Superman, it isn't reliable?
Hulk got a speed boost by a writer... Not that Quicksilver said, "i need to exert myself to even see Hulk moving"... 2 totally different instances. If a text box says Doomsday was faster than Superman, i could take it, but from Superman? Hell no.
Not to mention he can tag Wally, Wonder Woman and Orion who are all capable of superspeed.
Solomon Grundy, Ultra Humanite, Despero and others brick-like characters tag Superman consistently as well. Actually, there are more instances of Superman getting tagged than not. It doesn't matter if a character is capable of superspeed if he doesn't use that ability. I call it "The fast stupidity paradox".
DD adapts his physiology exceptionally quickly depending on who he's fighting in terms of doing them harm and stopping attacks from harming him.
Good for him... I don't know how that will help him on someone whose Molecular Manipulation is supposedly broken.
It's exactly the same as Hulk's "angrier he gets, the stronger he gets" fallacy so I fail to see why DD should be disregarded when he consistently beats teams of foes that individually can solo the Hulk.
I think you used the wrong statement mate... Hulk INDEED gets stronger the madder he gets. Its not a fallacy at all and has almost 60 years of proof to support it. I don't know why is Hulk being mentioned here since he's not in the gauntlet nor posses the abilities GR, Thanos and Void posses.
a) I will agree with you there even though these points of yours are basically miscontruing my point
How am i miscontruing your point if i exclusively directed mine to the fact Superman talks bs. Anyway, since we agree, no need to touch that subject :).
b) Sorry mate but you misquoted Superman. Here's what he actually says
Hmm... Seems weird to try to correct a Superman expert on his own field but anyway... I'll quote exactly what Superman says, lets analyze together...
"I can count on one hand the number of beings in the known universe i would be afraid to face in open combat."
Here he's referring to the beings in the "known universe"... I think the phrase its self explanatory... He's obviously making a list of beings in the universe.
"J'onn J'onnz is at the top of that list."
So then he says, MMH is on >top< of that list... The list he was referring about the beings in the >universe<.
"He is the most powerful being on the face of the earth."
He proceeds to claim something that would be true if the first statement was true, which is not. But i'll grant you Superman didn't literally said MMH was the most powerful being of the universe, but being the person whose Superman is most afraid of fighting, comparing you with beings around the >universe< and claiming you're on top of that list actually means your one of or the most powerful being on the universe, 2 things that are false.
So concluding, Superman actually meant beings in the universe, or atleast that was what the writers meant to write in his dialogue bubble.
c) Billy has strength feats that put him up there in Superman's league. Disgarding Loeb's biased fight, he's held his own against Superman in a straight up brawl. It's speed where Superman has Billy outclassed.
Being on someone's league and being able to stand around someone doesn't make you his equal. The very basis of being equal to someone is actually being able to stand around everything the other person does. Being outclass in the speed department automatically debunks any equality Billy and Superman may have. Going by your logic, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Lobo, Black Adam, and Captain Marvel are all Superman equals, when they're not.
I agree on Voided Sentry getting his powers from nowhere, i also agree on Bendis being a poor writer (Hell, i didn't like Bendis Avengers, how can you possibly write the Avengers poorly?)
Anyway, Superman suffers from this as well, inconsistency, its actually something very common on some character, specially the ones that have a very wide list of powers. What i actually see its an instance similar to when Hulk got the Thunderclap for the first time, the issue where he does it he already knew how to do it but he never did it before, which is something similar with Bendis instance, even though the scale of the upgrade its awfully greater.
It happens to all characters at some point in their histories. They do some feats which are ridiculous by their usual standards or don't deal with a situation effectively as they should be able to. In any case, Hulk's thunder clap makes some kind of sense given the Hulk's baseline powers. Sentry suddenly being a better molecule manipulator than Molecule Man does not.
Im not negating Doomsday may have superspeed, he's a kryptonian killing machine after all, what im arguing here is the fact Superman statements most of the times are blunt and baseless, and at the very best he's always trying to compliment someone. Also, the fact that Doomsday was fighting multiple characters, including people who don't posses super speed, makes me think he wasn't actually moving so fast, and that Superman saying what he said is again... BS.
True, statements can be baseless BS. But when they're accompanied by actual on panel confirmation, they do gain a bit more of a standing. Anyway, what else would you expect Superman to think of in that instance when Doomsday is tagging him? Jurgens needed DD to be fast enough to tag Superman so that it would seem logical for this monster to be able to kill Superman. And Maxima has superspeed by the way so DD tagging her is another indication of his tagging fast characters.
All those people still tagged him, still punched him, even pimp slap him... The fact that after getting punched/kicked/slapped/tagged he decides to use his speed properly its another story. This doesn't counter what i said.
Given that when he decides to fight properly without writing constraints forcing him to get hit by slow moving bricks is a function of plot requirement, Superman still has a robust repertoire of speed feats to show that he can make short work of any slower opponent (within reason). And there is no plot on the battle forums so it stands to reason those slow moving foes shouldn't tag Superman as much as they do in the comics.
Good, then we agree Superman statements shouldn't be used as measuring utility. The fact that he has WAY better speed feats than fighting Doomsday debunks his statement of needing to use his speed at max to keep up with him.
No they shouldn't. I don't even agree with the statements Diana makes about her having faster combat speed than Superman as there's no definitive proof of this. But DD making short work of a Morrison roster of JLA members which included the largest and most powerful JLA rosters since the Silver Age does play a bit more into how fast he can actually move when he has to.
They are, on Superman's tier... Doesn't mean they are his equal. It's not like Zeus and Odin... Who both have on-panel proof on being equals. The same way GEB and Presence... The same way as Lord Chaos and Master Order...
That's what I meant, on his tier ie capable of keeping with him in most fights even if they don't surpass him in certain areas. And I forgot to mention that Lobo actually has better physical strength feats than Superman as he pulled down a city into a condensed ball and ate it (no jokes) and pulled down Solaris, a sentient star with stellar mass. Plus he has an insane healing factor. So despite lacking speed feats, he does have other edges which allow him to take on Superman in a good fight. For the record, there is a scan of Superman owning Lobo whilst speed blitzing him when possessed by Eclipso and whilst I still vouch for Superman's power in that instance, there is an argument that being possessed by Eclipso amped Superman's physicals up just as past possessions done by Eclipso have done.
I think i only recall Black Adam getting trashed by Jay Garrick twice and then performing 1 pimp slap since Jay was moving in circles and 1 "IT'S ENOUGH" Thunderclap. Doesn't mean he can keep up with Jay while fighting.
Of course Superman has more and better speed feats than Adam. Heck he kept up with Jay perfectly fine in an engineered race between the two.
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