this would be a tough battle for both characters... sort of leaning towards Darkseid because of the efficiency of the Omega Blasts he has. Doctor Fate would really test Darkseid though...
Darkseid and Dr Fate have already fought. During the Straus Fate run. DS was well in control and Fate pulled out a plot win by making DS feel mercy ( retconed to later not be DS). Since at the start of the Inza Nelson Fate run DS was casually dictating terms to all the Lords of Order and Chaos I'd say him facing one would be simple victory
At different times Fate has done crap that all together would probably own Darkseid but he is an inconsistent character. Its kinda like putting Dr Strange across from certain enemies. When writers want to prolong the story he never unleashes the kind of power we expect of him. Seems like that happens to a lot of magic characters. We always hear about all the awesome stuff they can do but rarely do they use it when it would come in handy.
Based on supposed power sets, Dr Fate. Based on how comics tend to go, Darkseid.
@DcMarvelUnity: Helm of Nabu is supposed to be superbad. Basically, based purely on what it is supposedly capable of, he is like superman with Dr Strange powers and some martian manhunter skills as well. Did not always seem to play out that way in practice though.
@DcMarvelUnity: 1.Helm of Naboo is supposed to be superbad.2. Basically, based purely on what it is supposedly capable of, he is like superman with Dr Strange powers and some martian manhunter skills as well. Did not always seem to play out that way in practice though.
1.The Helm itself is not "superbad" it merely allows the wearer to draw power from the Lords of Order. Some of those
2.Incorrect. Yes Dr Fate has super strength, flight invulnerability etc. But these have never been powers of the Helm at all. They have been the result of the alterations that the entity Nabu has done on the bodies of the hosts who have worn the helmet. In the case of the Original Nabu altered Kent Nelson turning him from a child to a man and making him never age and giving him the powers. The same was true with Erik Straus. With Hector he created the child and put hector spirit in it than aged it etc. All versions have had the power of strength, speed, flight, invulnerability and not aging without the Helm.
The Original Dr Fate for example when he lost the Helm of Nabu and wore a shrunkated version that he created (half helmet) was still a superman type of hero, but with psychic senses etc. he also had the ability to do minor spells and levitate things.
@capfan80 said:
At different times Fate has done crap that all together would probably own Darkseid but he is an inconsistent character. Its kinda like putting Dr Strange across from certain enemies. When writers want to prolong the story he never unleashes the kind of power we expect of him. Seems like that happens to a lot of magic characters. We always hear about all the awesome stuff they can do but rarely do they use it when it would come in handy.
Based on supposed power sets, Dr Fate. Based on how comics tend to go, Darkseid.
Actually Fate's feats across all version are quite consistent. In all versions he can raise the dead, animate objects, warp reality etc. Mystic characters aren't always capable of their peak feats because of how magic works in both companies. Non magic characters have power to a certain limit and that's it. With magic characters they access power from outside themselves, in some cases also having a certain level of their own inner power. Often they have to build the spell to build up the power. That's why mystics often do better against other mystic powers (of high order) because their power works the same way. If you look at for example Dr Strange defeating Shuma-Gorath he did so by drawing on the power of the realms of his enemy. Fate has like wise drawn on the power of many god's (lords of order) to defeat high level entities. According to the laws of Magic in the 9th age (DC) mortal mystics could only draw power through the Lords of Order and Chaos, talismans, or familiars, to draw the power through themselves would mean their destruction. The 10th age still seems to have the same but there is now also a price for magic.
Darkseid on the other hand has access to his full level of power from the outset of every encounter. he can unleash an assault on a level that Dr Fate would need to build up to or entreat others to achieve. So by the time fate would be at DS's level he would have already lost.
@beatboks1: I would say the magic level provided by the helm compared to the wearer's innate ability is pretty dang extreme. Fate is WAY more powerful with the full helm.
However, in the training of Kent Nelson (20 years in pre-crisis while 1 day in post-crisis), Nabu taught Kent to use the following powers without the helmet: (goes on to say flight, strength, etc.)
So he used to need the helmet but has learned to go it without. But that still means the helmet CAN provide those tools.
I still say his ability to go intangible would give him time to develop an attack.
@beatboks1: I would say the magic level provided by the helm compared to the wearer's innate ability is pretty dang extreme. Fate is WAY more powerful with the full helm.
Absolutely, which I already covered in the simple line " According to the laws of Magic in the 9th age (DC) mortal mystics could only draw power through the Lords of Order and Chaos, talismans, or familiars,". the level of power a mortal can use without a talisman in DC is always limited.
@capfan80 said:
@beatboks1: Here is what the DC Wiki says
However, in the training of Kent Nelson (20 years in pre-crisis while 1 day in post-crisis), Nabu taught Kent to use the following powers without the helmet: (goes on to say flight, strength, etc.)
So he used to need the helmet but has learned to go it without. But that still means the helmet CAN provide those tools.
I still say his ability to go intangible would give him time to develop an attack.
That's correct "in training". he had all those powers before the Helm was given him. no mention of the Helm "giving" powers did it. In fact he had those powers before the Helm was given him. The training was before he left Nabu's Tomb and went to the world to become Dr Fate. He could even work vast magic in the valley of power (Nabu's tomb) just as he could in his Salem Tower, without the Helm. The only places he could work vast magic in fact. Pre COIE it was a thing in DC that a mage couldn't use a host and work magic unless the host could work magic. There was a perfect example of this in one of Felix Faust early appearances. Faust was taken over by a powerful mystic (stated as a said the reason he waited for someone like Faust). It was ended when Green Arrow put an arrow through the book of power of the ancient mage.
Trust me as someone who's collection is only missing about 7 of Dr Fates appearances (that includes golden Age with heaps of more fun comics and All Star). I think I can call myself an authority.
The 1st. 3rd 4th and 5th scans are from the no/half helmet era. clearly no need for the Helmof Nabu for his strength and invulnerability. The rest (except 7th - a mistake) from various tellings of his origin.
Didn't Nabu go the distance for a while with Spectre? Before Spectre beat him?
I think Dr. Fate could give Darkseid a rough time here. He may not win, but given what I've seen when both went up against Spectre, clearly Nabu gave him a much harder time then Darkseid did.
Didn't Nabu go the distance for a while with Spectre? Before Spectre beat him?
I think Dr. Fate could give Darkseid a rough time here. He may not win, but given what I've seen when both went up against Spectre, clearly Nabu gave him a much harder time then Darkseid did.
Yes Nabu has fought the spectre and lasted, as has classic Fate back in All Star Squadron 27 (IIRC) . Nabu however isn't Dr fate. Nabu in his energy state has advantages that a physical Dr Fate doesn't.
As you can see the fact that the power of a Lord of order in a human form has weaknesses that a spirit doesn't also means that the energy form of Nabu who fought Spectre would be stronger than Fate.
A Darkseid doppleganger has already defeated not one but two Dr fates and they couldn't prevail.
The real Darkseid has dictated terms to the combined Lords of Order and Chaos (of which Fate is but 1)
Like i said I don't see Fate getting the upper hand and I'm a Fate fanboy. To get the real answer to the question @AtPhantom would be the one to ask. he's also a Dr fate fan but a Darkseid one as well so he'd be the most informed on both and the least biased. For me Fate would give him a hell of a fight but he can't win. For one thing even teh Spectre couldn't kill Darkseid because he's needed. Also when the presence was "missing" Spectre was being coy around DS because he feared what he might do if he was aware that the highest power was nowhere to be found. So even Spectre has concerns where DS is concerned.
Didn't Nabu go the distance for a while with Spectre? Before Spectre beat him?
I think Dr. Fate could give Darkseid a rough time here. He may not win, but given what I've seen when both went up against Spectre, clearly Nabu gave him a much harder time then Darkseid did.
Yes Nabu has fought the spectre and lasted, as has classic Fate back in All Star Squadron 27 (IIRC) . Nabu however isn't Dr fate. Nabu in his energy state has advantages that a physical Dr Fate doesn't.
As you can see the fact that the power of a Lord of order in a human form has weaknesses that a spirit doesn't also means that the energy form of Nabu who fought Spectre would be stronger than Fate.
A Darkseid doppleganger has already defeated not one but two Dr fates and they couldn't prevail.
The real Darkseid has dictated terms to the combined Lords of Order and Chaos (of which Fate is but 1)
Like i said I don't see Fate getting the upper hand and I'm a Fate fanboy. To get the real answer to the question @AtPhantom would be the one to ask. he's also a Dr fate fan but a Darkseid one as well so he'd be the most informed on both and the least biased. For me Fate would give him a hell of a fight but he can't win. For one thing even teh Spectre couldn't kill Darkseid because he's needed. Also when the presence was "missing" Spectre was being coy around DS because he feared what he might do if he was aware that the highest power was nowhere to be found. So even Spectre has concerns where DS is concerned.
Yeah, dude as I was saying earlier I never said Fate would win, just perhaps give him a rough time for a while. Also, I know Nabu is the source of Fate's power, but more or less the same character when the helmet is on someone, it's Nabu controlling the host to a degree. Know what I mean? Or that's what I always thought, like a bond some what between the host and helmet of nabu.
I do think if Spectre wasn't jobbing and went all out, he could deal with Darkseid if not kill him. But you know, both are key characters especially Darkseid as a villian so obviously they won't kill him off.
Yeah, dude as I was saying earlier I never said Fate would win, just perhaps give him a rough time for a while. Also, I know Nabu is the source of Fate's power, but more or less the same character when the helmet is on someone, it's Nabu controlling the host to a degree. Know what I mean? Or that's what I always thought, like a bond some what between the host and helmet of nabu.
It depends. Fate is generally a symbiosis between Nabu and the host, but at times Nabu has both overridden the host and been subdued and shut down by him. There is also a difference is power. Nabu, in his duel with the Spectre, makes a point in differentiating himself, as the last and most powerful lord of order, from the ultimately mortal sorcerer using his power that is Doctor Fate.
Yeah, dude as I was saying earlier I never said Fate would win, just perhaps give him a rough time for a while. Also, I know Nabu is the source of Fate's power, but more or less the same character when the helmet is on someone, it's Nabu controlling the host to a degree. Know what I mean? Or that's what I always thought, like a bond some what between the host and helmet of nabu.
It depends. Fate is generally a symbiosis between Nabu and the host, but at times Nabu has both overridden the host and been subdued and shut down by him. There is also a difference is power. Nabu, in his duel with the Spectre, makes a point in differentiating himself, as the last and most powerful lord of order, from the ultimately mortal sorcerer using his power that is Doctor Fate.
Yeah, one of those things where I guess depending on the host and story determines who has more control or power I suppose. The current Fate isn't nearly as powerful as classic Fate so it seems on what I gather. I'm curious to see how the new 52 levels Fate and Spectre once we see more into them.
A Darkseid doppleganger has already defeated not one but two Dr fates and they couldn't prevail.
It was actually retconned into being Desaad, not a doppelganger. Citizenbane should know this as well, since I've seen him bring it up before.
I actually don't know a lot about Dr. Fate, but those scans do not look like a victory for Darkseid to me. To me it looks like they run like so:
Scan 2: Darkseid attacks Linda and misses. Linda hits Darkseid and knocks him over. The text also explicitly states that she is only at half power, and that Erik is weak with fever.
Scan 3: Text states that Darkseid is "stunned" and "shaken," and views her as a threat. Linda attacks again and knocks him off a ledge.
Scans 4-6 are the Fates having a hard time fighting off a pack of Parademons.
Scan 8: Darkseid animates a stone hand to grab them. You don't have the scan here, but on the next page, Linda shatters the hand.
The only thing Darkseid actually did to them was use the stone hand, but Linda broke it pretty quickly. Otherwise, he only attacked once, but missed, while Darkseid himself was shot twice, but didn't seem all that hurt. So it seems more like a stalemate up to that point (after which they pulled that "power of love" stunt; can't believe an editor OK'd that). On top of that, Erik was already dying, and Linda was explicitly stated to be at half strength (at least for the first part of the battle; looks like they might have changed that after holding hands). The preceding issues also gave me the impression that Linda was extremely new to being fate, and didn't even particularly want or like it.
Now, I don't really know how they compare to Kent Nelson as Fate, since these are the only issues I've seen of them, but between the sickness, split power, and inexperience, I would assume that he is a vastly more formidable version of Fate.
Now, I'm not saying Fate should win, I just don't think that this fight is a very good showcase of Fate's power. Of course, it isn't a particularly good showcase of Darkseid's power either, and with it being retconned to Desaad anyway, it loses a lot of its relevance.
For one thing even teh Spectre couldn't kill Darkseid because he's needed.
Final Crisis (amongst other things) pretty thoroughly disproved the idea that Darkseid is "needed" in the universe. Normally Himon and Metron would be fairly reliable testimony, but in this case, they are just wrong. The Spectre was prevented from killing Darkseid, of course, but the Spectre operates under different rules from other characters. There is no reason to believe the presence would prevent anyone else from destroying Darkseid. Plus, this isn't actually a fight to the death, and DS can definitely be defeated, so it shouldn't be an issue anyway.
Also when the presence was "missing" Spectre was being coy around DS because he feared what he might do if he was aware that the highest power was nowhere to be found. So even Spectre has concerns where DS is concerned.
I really need to find those issues someday. Honestly though, it seems like kind of bad writing to me (assuming that's what was actually going on). The Presence was the only thing preventing the Spectre from killing Darkseid; had it not been around to regenerate Darkseid, Spectre would have killed him right there. Plus, in the Fourth World books themselves, the Presence is never a factor in limiting Darkseid's behavior, New Genesis is, and they should still be around even if the Presence is gone.
A Darkseid doppleganger has already defeated not one but two Dr fates and they couldn't prevail.
It was actually retconned into being Desaad, not a doppelganger. Citizenbane should know this as well, since I've seen him bring it up before.
I actually don't know a lot about Dr. Fate, but those scans do not look like a victory for Darkseid to me. To me it looks like they run like so:
Scan 2: Darkseid attacks Linda and misses. Linda hits Darkseid and knocks him over. The text also explicitly states that she is only at half power, and that Erik is weak with fever.
Scan 3: Text states that Darkseid is "stunned" and "shaken," and views her as a threat. Linda attacks again and knocks him off a ledge.
Scans 4-6 are the Fates having a hard time fighting off a pack of Parademons.
Scan 8: Darkseid animates a stone hand to grab them. You don't have the scan here, but on the next page, Linda shatters the hand.
The only thing Darkseid actually did to them was use the stone hand, but Linda broke it pretty quickly. Otherwise, he only attacked once, but missed, while Darkseid himself was shot twice, but didn't seem all that hurt. So it seems more like a stalemate up to that point (after which they pulled that "power of love" stunt; can't believe an editor OK'd that). On top of that, Erik was already dying, and Linda was explicitly stated to be at half strength (at least for the first part of the battle; looks like they might have changed that after holding hands). The preceding issues also gave me the impression that Linda was extremely new to being fate, and didn't even particularly want or like it.
Now, I don't really know how they compare to Kent Nelson as Fate, since these are the only issues I've seen of them, but between the sickness, split power, and inexperience, I would assume that he is a vastly more formidable version of Fate.
Now, I'm not saying Fate should win, I just don't think that this fight is a very good showcase of Fate's power. Of course, it isn't a particularly good showcase of Darkseid's power either, and with it being retconned to Desaad anyway, it loses a lot of its relevance.
For one thing even teh Spectre couldn't kill Darkseid because he's needed.
Final Crisis (amongst other things) pretty thoroughly disproved the idea that Darkseid is "needed" in the universe. Normally Himon and Metron would be fairly reliable testimony, but in this case, they are just wrong. The Spectre was prevented from killing Darkseid, of course, but the Spectre operates under different rules from other characters. There is no reason to believe the presence would prevent anyone else from destroying Darkseid. Plus, this isn't actually a fight to the death, and DS can definitely be defeated, so it shouldn't be an issue anyway.
Also when the presence was "missing" Spectre was being coy around DS because he feared what he might do if he was aware that the highest power was nowhere to be found. So even Spectre has concerns where DS is concerned.
I really need to find those issues someday. Honestly though, it seems like kind of bad writing to me (assuming that's what was actually going on). The Presence was the only thing preventing the Spectre from killing Darkseid; had it not been around to regenerate Darkseid, Spectre would have killed him right there. Plus, in the Fourth World books themselves, the Presence is never a factor in limiting Darkseid's behavior, New Genesis is, and they should still be around even if the Presence is gone.
That's right Desaad was the doppelganger. A doppelganger in modern vernacular only refers to any double or look-alike of a person not the traditional folklore meaning.
As a fan of Dr Fate not Darkseid most of the scans i have saved are to show him looking good (which is the way I usually use them). In the issue prior he defeated Erik (who at that point didn't have a fever) and had him at his mercy. After casting him aside like chaff Erik was then easily taken by a band of parademons. In the same issue he manhandled Nabu (who at the time was in the original Kent Nelson's body and called himself Kent, not really a major feat Nabu in a mortal host was always pretty limited). he had both Fates at his mercy at the end of that issue and they pulled off a win through a plot device of making him feel love and mercy.
For the next few pages he was being trounced by parrademons and then DS again. DS was about to deliver the finishing blow when Linda Attacked, and his fever began to develop from a parrademon's bite.
I suggest you look at the scans again. The first one is Linda firing at DS and missing then him almost hitting her and her finally tagging him. The page before the first scan as i recall she actually hit him from behind with a full blast and it did nothing. It says nothing at all about her being at half power only that she is the other half of Fate. When both Linda or Erik form Fate alone they have the same level of power. The same level that every other Fate has had access to. Their peak feats solo match those of Inza, and of Hector. There are possibly five showings of "classic Fate" that could be considered higher if you exclude the merged Kent Inza ( which is where the whole concept of Erik Linda came from). To face an alliance between a Lord of chaos Vaneamon and a Lord of Order Ynar Classic Fate merged with his host's wife Inza. he did this to be able to access the power not just of Order (through the Helm of Nabu) or of chaos (through his amulet of Anubis) but also the power of human emotion. It was only by doing so that he was able to defeat two gods of equal power to him.
So yes the merged Fate is more powerful with access to more sources of energy. In that sense Linda was less than she could be, however this thread has the battle with Current Kent. He isn't a merged Fate and has never had access to more power than that which Linda did in this issue. In fact as she was fueled by her love for Erik she probably had more.
So my point was that a more powerful version of Fate was unable to defeat (without a plot device) one of Darkseid's lackeys mascarading as him. How would the current Fate with less showings less experience and less power fare against the real deal. I think he'd be found wanting.
My whole point in the Spectre thing was in countering an argument given that Nabu fared well against the Spectre so Fate should win against DS. I was simply pointing out that taking a,b,c logic like that you could also show that Spec' couldn't kill DS but he could kill Nabu. Since Nabu is the source of Fate's power that not a great comparison. Do I think Spectre's inability to destroy DS has any bearing on this match ? NO, that was what I was also trying to say about the statement of Nabu ( .i.e it's irrelevant )
I like how you completely ignored the scans where DS has all the Lords of Order and Chaos basically bending over for his will (and they are the ones who Dr fate and all other DC mystics draw their power from) and focus only on the few scans where I said it was a stand in.
That's right Desaad was the doppelganger. A doppelganger in modern vernacular only refers to any double or look-alike of a person not the traditional folklore meaning.
I'll take your word for it. I've never seen it used that way before.
As a fan of Dr Fate not Darkseid most of the scans i have saved are to show him looking good (which is the way I usually use them). In the issue prior he defeated Erik (who at that point didn't have a fever) and had him at his mercy.
According to issue 12, Erik had had the fever ever since he "got back from India." It's also stated he had had it for weeks when Nelson reveals that his illness is actually a side-effect of his accelerated aging, and that Erik is actually dying from it.
After casting him aside like chaff Erik was then easily taken by a band of parademons.
You know, unless Fate is dramatically less powerful than I have been led to believe, the fact he couldn't defend himself from a single band of parademons should already suggest that he's not operating anywhere near his peak.
he had both Fates at his mercy at the end of that issue and they pulled off a win through a plot device of making him feel love and mercy.
How, exactly? All he did to them was animate a stone hand to grab them, which Linda destroys. He does not attack them in any way after that. The only reason they feign a surrender is because he shows them an essentially endless army of parademons, and points out that he can just keep sending wave after wave of them at the Fates until they are just overwhelmed. He does not personally subdue or harm them.
For the next few pages he was being trounced by parrademons and then DS again. DS was about to deliver the finishing blow when Linda Attacked, and his fever began to develop from a parrademon's bite.
No, DS does not attack Erik again until he uses the stone hand on both the Fates. After he lands in Apokolips, he is only attacked by Parademons until Linda saves him.
I already pointed out that the fever had been with him for sometime. He was already bed-ridden as of the beginning of issue 9, and it is mentioned many times throughout those 4 issues, and seemed to be a fairly significant plot point. Unless you can point out a line to me that I've been missing, I'm pretty sure the Parademons had nothing to do with it, and he was already barely functional before Darkseid even showed up.
I suggest you look at the scans again. The first one is Linda firing at DS and missing then him almost hitting her and her finally tagging him.
I forgot to include the first one, but it is still essentially as I said, you are just needlessly putting more emphasis on Darkseid. She shoots and misses. He shoots and misses. She shoots and hits. Darkseid gets knocked down. Next page, she shoots and hits again. Darkseid gets knocked down again. Never said she hurt him. In fact, I'm pretty sure I mentioned that he looked okay, but Darkseid missing and then being struck twice does not constitute a victory for him in any way.
The page before the first scan as i recall she actually hit him from behind with a full blast and it did nothing.
It's from the previous issue, and actually, that blast knocked him over as well. Again, not saying she is "winning" because of this, but he certainly isn't either.
It says nothing at all about her being at half power only that she is the other half of Fate.
2nd of your scans, last panel. The exact words are "half a Fate... at half power..."
So yes the merged Fate is more powerful with access to more sources of energy. In that sense Linda was less than she could be, however this thread has the battle with Current Kent. He isn't a merged Fate and has never had access to more power than that which Linda did in this issue. In fact as she was fueled by her love for Erik she probably had more.
I only have issues 9-12, so I kind of have to take your word for it. It is mentioned several times that if only one of them becomes Fate at a time, they are a much weaker Fate than they should be, but I guess that is a relative statement.
So my point was that a more powerful version of Fate was unable to defeat (without a plot device) one of Darkseid's lackeys mascarading as him. How would the current Fate with less showings less experience and less power fare against the real deal. I think he'd be found wanting.
If stalemating Desaad and being hard-pressed by perhaps 2 dozen parademons is really a legitimate showing for these Fates, and Nelson is weaker, then I am inclined to think Darkseid would completely slaughter-stomp him in a random encounter.
My whole point in the Spectre thing was in countering an argument given that Nabu fared well against the Spectre so Fate should win against DS. I was simply pointing out that taking a,b,c logic like that you could also show that Spec' couldn't kill DS but he could kill Nabu. Since Nabu is the source of Fate's power that not a great comparison. Do I think Spectre's inability to destroy DS has any bearing on this match ? NO, that was what I was also trying to say about the statement of Nabu ( .i.e it's irrelevant )
The comment about Spectre being unable to kill Darkseid came at the end of your original post, right after you said, "For me Fate would give him a hell of a fight but he can't win." Your comments on Nabu vs. Spectre were at the beginning of your post. They did not seem connected to me.
Personally, I think the simplest response to that issue is that Nabu =/= Fate.
I like how you completely ignored the scans where DS has all the Lords of Order and Chaos basically bending over for his will (and they are the ones who Dr fate and all other DC mystics draw their power from) and focus only on the few scans where I said it was a stand in.
I don't really see the relevance, to be honest. All it shows is political power, not personal power. Darkseid does not actually overpower them, damage them, or force them to do anything. Adam Warlock has "dictated terms" to Eternity and a small army of Abstracts. I've never heard anyone use that as an argument to imply a certain level of power for him.
cmon man, you know fate wasn't winning this six months ago, why you bump it now?
Cause I'm learning so much from reading the thread... I want more. =)
just ask beatbox, he was the one owning this thread anyway. Oh, and from what I hear, It was an avatar of darksied that beat fate and ms fate, the real one spoke on equal terms with the lords of chaos and order themselves to their formless faces...told them to shut up and they did
@Ancient_0f_Days: Did you actually read the thread? Just about everything you mentioned was addressed.
1) Even with the retcon, it was not an avatar, it was Desaad. So anyone arguing the Fates legitimately lost, are basically arguing that Dr. Fate is weaker than Desaad.
2) The scans of Darkseid addressing the Lords of Chaos and Order are from the same story arc as the Fates, so if you're going to insist it was Desaad who fought the Dr's, then it was also Desaad who spoke on equal terms with the Lords of C&O, not Darkseid.
3) That part is irrelevant anyway; Adam Warlock has told Eternity to "begone" to his face... does that mean Adam Warlock is on Eternity's level?
4) The male Dr. Fate was severely ill and dying of fever. Had been for at least 3-4 issues. The female Fate was stated to be at half power, and from what I can tell from the previous issues, was still quite new to being Fate and not particularly masterful or confident in her abilities.
5) The biggest problem is that Darkseid/Desaad did not defeat them anyway. Even before the plot device, it was more of a stalemate. Darkseid did not harm or overpower Linda at all. The closest he comes is summoning a stone hand to grasp her, which she destroys almost immediately. Erik was shot once, which was when DS knocked him into the Boomtube, and after that, is not directly attacked by him again (except the stone hand, which was quickly broken, as I said).
Seriously, pretty much the whole fight has been posted. Exactly which scan shows Desaad clearly beating them? He is shot 3 times. Linda isn't shot at all. Erik gets shot once, but that just gets him to Apokolips, and he was severely ill anyway.
Frankly, the Parademons did far more damage to the Fates and presented a far greater threat than Desaad did. Which, funnily enough, actually helps the retcon make a little more sense, since Desaad isn't actually a very powerful character.
@entropy_aegis: I really have no idea how you could interpret anything I said as leading to a victory for Darkseid. If anything, it should lead to the conclusion that people should simply stop bringing up this battle because it is irrelevant; neither Fate was Kent Nelson, one was a dying, one was a half-powered rookie, they weren't fighting Darkseid anyway, just Desaad, and they won.
So really, people should just be bringing up actual feats for Kent Nelson and Darkseid, not a battle that didn't involve either character.
@entropy_aegis: I really have no idea how you could interpret anything I said as leading to a victory for Darkseid. If anything, it should lead to the conclusion that people should simply stop bringing up this battle because it is irrelevant; neither Fate was Kent Nelson, one was a dying, one was a half-powered rookie, they weren't fighting Darkseid anyway, just Desaad, and they won.
So really, people should just be bringing up actual feats for Kent Nelson and Darkseid, not a battle that didn't involve either character.
Erik wasn't Dying ( he lived for quite some time afterward, and was rebirthed into a new magical life form to save humanity at the end of the Straus Run), Linda was no less a neophyte than Kent V has been in every showing he's had. In fact with her time in the merged Fate and access to the entity that is fate she was vastly more experienced. The two of them together access the same power to exact levels Kent V does and between them at that point had several times the experience he has.They were clearly at the mercy of Desaad at the end and only won through a plot device. If a more powerful, more experienced version of fate couldn't defeat an underling of Darkseid ( and they couldn't they convinced him to have mercy on them- =/= a win) and his lowly para demons, how is Kent V supposed to??
The Image in the OP wasn't classic Kent. Kent V ( the pre Flashpoint Fate) only has three real feats and frankly their not impressive. Defeating a never before heard from demon ( and never heard again) defeating Lady Blaze, and bringing a soul back from the afterlife ( which by all accounts almost killed him, and Inza Fate accomplished the same with Consummate ease). Everything else about Kent V is simply alluded to in terms of power.
Seriously if we want to talk feats for Kent V Nelson Dr fate vs Darkseid it becomes a slaughter stomp. I'd love to say it was anything but because I had DS and am a Fate fanboy but the facts are the facts. Now DS (even Pre COIE) Vs Classic Fate that would be a completely different story. Classic fate would wipe the floor with him.
@entropy_aegis: I really have no idea how you could interpret anything I said as leading to a victory for Darkseid. If anything, it should lead to the conclusion that people should simply stop bringing up this battle because it is irrelevant; neither Fate was Kent Nelson, one was a dying, one was a half-powered rookie, they weren't fighting Darkseid anyway, just Desaad, and they won.
So really, people should just be bringing up actual feats for Kent Nelson and Darkseid, not a battle that didn't involve either character.
Erik wasn't Dying ( he lived for quite some time afterward, and was rebirthed into a new magical life form to save humanity at the end of the Straus Run), Linda was no less a neophyte than Kent V has been in every showing he's had. In fact with her time in the merged Fate and access to the entity that is fate she was vastly more experienced. The two of them together access the same power to exact levels Kent V does and between them at that point had several times the experience he has.
Erik was shown to be very ill for several issues, and it was stated by Nabu that he was dying. That they managed to cure or bring him back later isn't at all surprising, but to claim he wasn't dying at the time is like saying Doomsday didn't beat Superman to the brink of death just because he was okay later.
Although, what I find more confusing about your statement about him living for a while afterwards is that he's actually dead at the end of the issue, killed by a spear to the side, and he even has a grave and tombstone in the next issue, and Linda goes to the after life to talk to his spirit.
If Kent Nelson is less experienced than Linda, that's fine. All I can say is in the issues I read, which are like a half-dozen, she didn't seem especially proficient or confident in her powers, and from what I can tell, she first became Dr. Fate in late 1987, and the story arc in question was printed late 1989, so two years real time. I don't know how many appearances she had as Fate in those two years though (it doesn't seem to be many, since it looks like there was a bit of a publication gap between the miniseries she became Fate, and the series where they fought Desaad).
This is largely basing it on the idea that a fully proficient Fate is at least roughly as learned and competent as Dr. Strange, which tends to be the assumption that is often made. I can't really speak to the accuracy of the comparison.
The other common assumption to me seems to be that Kent Nelson is kind of viewed as being the quintessential Dr. Fate in sort of the same way that Hal Jordan is viewed as being the quintessential Green Lantern (I'm assuming that's the only reason the OP chose him for this battle, because I really can't see the sense of deliberately choosing a weak version of a character to fight someone like Darkseid). Again, I can't really speak to how accurate this assumption is. Going by what you're saying, it seems like this would only be true of the Silver Age Nelson, and the post-crisis incarnation is actually much more puny than most people probably think.
They were clearly at the mercy of Desaad at the end and only won through a plot device. If a more powerful, more experienced version of fate couldn't defeat an underling of Darkseid ( and they couldn't they convinced him to have mercy on them- =/= a win) and his lowly para demons, how is Kent V supposed to??
They were not at Desaad's mercy, they were pretty much at the mercy of what appeared to be an endless army of Parademons (although I'm not entirely certain why they couldn't try to escape via teleportation, flight, invisibility, etc). Desaad by himself was getting the worse of his exchange with Linda.
Now, I'm not entirely sure just how powerful you are claiming Linda is supposed to be (i.e. how she ranks against guys like Green Lantern or Superman or what have you), or what their full abilities are. If it were Dr. Strange, for example, I'd think he could just teleport away or open a portal home or something (or just turn invisible or intangible). Not sure if Dr. Fate can do those kinds of things (though I could swear he has), but I do think that if you were to start a "Dr. Fate vs. Desaad" thread, just about everyone would say Fate stomps. Desaad is not a powerful character, and unless Dr. Fate in general is much weaker than I've been lead to believe, Desaad overpowering a Fate (which didn't actually happen here, but I'm just stating hypothetically) would be PIS. So basically, before the retcon, we had a PIS low-showing for Darkseid, and after the retcon, we have a PIS high-showing for Desaad.
Okay, so Desaad obviously had a lot of prep in this instance, and access to pretty good technology, which could at least provide some excuse for his showing, but it is still well beyond his normal capabilities (without tech, Desaad probably loses to most street level characters).
The Image in the OP wasn't classic Kent. Kent V ( the pre Flashpoint Fate) only has three real feats and frankly their not impressive. Defeating a never before heard from demon ( and never heard again) defeating Lady Blaze, and bringing a soul back from the afterlife ( which by all accounts almost killed him, and Inza Fate accomplished the same with Consummate ease). Everything else about Kent V is simply alluded to in terms of power. Seriously if we want to talk feats for Kent V Nelson Dr fate vs Darkseid it becomes a slaughter stomp. I'd love to say it was anything but because I had DS and am a Fate fanboy but the facts are the facts. Now DS (even Pre COIE) Vs Classic Fate that would be a completely different story. Classic fate would wipe the floor with him.
See, now this is a proper argument involving the proper character. Like I said, I think a lot of people make assumptions about the Nelson Dr. Fate. What you are saying here looks like there is little evidence to back up those ideas, or maybe they've got him mixed up with a different Dr. Fate. Either way, it looks like Kent doesn't have the showings to contend with Darkseid. Which is fine, and I don't think I ever said otherwise, I just don't think that a single retconned, PIS instance that didn't even involve the right characters and wasn't even being presented properly, should be brought up as the be-all-end-all of this battle.
The Image in the OP wasn't classic Kent. Kent V ( the pre Flashpoint Fate) only has three real feats and frankly their not impressive. Defeating a never before heard from demon ( and never heard again) defeating Lady Blaze, and bringing a soul back from the afterlife ( which by all accounts almost killed him, and Inza Fate accomplished the same with Consummate ease). Everything else about Kent V is simply alluded to in terms of power. Seriously if we want to talk feats for Kent V Nelson Dr fate vs Darkseid it becomes a slaughter stomp. I'd love to say it was anything but because I had DS and am a Fate fanboy but the facts are the facts. Now DS (even Pre COIE) Vs Classic Fate that would be a completely different story. Classic fate would wipe the floor with him.
See, now this is a proper argument involving the proper character. Like I said, I think a lot of people make assumptions about the Nelson Dr. Fate. What you are saying here looks like there is little evidence to back up those ideas, or maybe they've got him mixed up with a different Dr. Fate. Either way, it looks like Kent doesn't have the showings to contend with Darkseid. Which is fine, and I don't think I ever said otherwise, I just don't think that a single retconned, PIS instance that didn't even involve the right characters and wasn't even being presented properly, should be brought up as the be-all-end-all of this battle.
I think there may be some confusion here. There are Two versions of Dr fate with the name Kent Nelson.
There is the Original Kent Nelson who was the Golden Age/ Silver Age and classic Fate
He was ten when his father found Nabu's tomb in the early 1920's. When his father was killed on doing so he aged Kent to a 20year old and made him super strong/fast, impervious (except his lungs), and made him immune to all disease and never age. He then trained him for almost 20 years in the ways of ancient sectrest before he had his debut. This Kent Nelson has enough knowledge in magic to work powerful spells without the vestments or talismans of fate in areas of power like Stone henge and his Salem tower.
This version of Fate is also possessed by the essence of Nabu in the helmet whenever he dons it. Kent only has minimal memories of his actions as Fate. So basically he is a wizard older than than universe itself. He has fought gods and celestials, he has reality warped on a major scale, he is stated as being indestructible /unable to be destroyed.
He is the only one on a par with Classic Dr Strange. That version of Fate would defeat DS no question.
Kent V Nelson.
Kent V found the helmet ( or rather it found him) in 2007's 8 issue mini series countdown to mystery. He has no training and the essence of Nabu hasn't been in the helm since it entered into the body of the late Kent Nelson (original) which was before Erik and Linda were made the "joined" Fate. After that his appearances are limited ( to my knowledge) to Reign in Hell (where he really only had two fights of substance) and in Justice Society of America from issue 30, in which he only really played a part in few arks. For most of JSA he was only in cameo's and he really didn't make much of a splash. Right before the Saga where the fourth Reich take over the world he left to get training in his power. Before that he had none. Every showing of an actual feat prior he get's lucky ( not even understanding how he does it) and afterwards he has NO FEATS.
The image in the OP is of the Kent V Nelson who is supposed to be the great grand nephew or some such of the original. Kent V is by far the weakest version of Fate
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