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#1 Edited by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio

fight takes place in a deserted las vegas,morals on for all, fight is to the K/O no gear for any, bear hands only. Colossus doesn't have the juggernaut power who wins?

#2 Posted by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

Doc and Colossus for the win

#3 Posted by mrtrevorguy (1198 posts) - - Show Bio

any reasons why?

#4 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

The Thing and Sasquatch

#5 Posted by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stronger said:

The Thing and Sasquatch

Moderator
#6 Posted by Hyperlight (5455 posts) - - Show Bio

i like the first team more... but sasquatch is stronger than samson( i think)

#7 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyperlight said:

i like the first team more... but sasquatch is stronger than samson( i think)

I doubt it.

This Guy has fought Savage Hulk 6 different times and match him every time.

Heck he in 4 panels beat Unas the Untouchable. A Guy who gave the X-Men a hard time twice.

Here Samson fights Hulk Buster Team by SHIELD. EASY win.

Samson 1st Battle with the Mindless Savage Hulk (Same Hulk who got the best of the Avengers 3 out of 4 Battles).

Second Battle and boy does Samson really held on against this Enraged Mindless Savage Hulk.

Samson first battle against Savage Hulk When Re powered. Does more than well.

Samson again holding his own very easily against Savage Hulk who is **** off.

I would go far to say Doc S is way more skilled than anyone on Team 2.

All in all Sasquatch is a HORRIBLE Jobber who lost to Sabertooth rather easily.

Meanwhile Doc Savage is Starting stats of Savage Hulk in strength and Durability and proves to be faster, agile, and more skill than Thing or Sasquatch.

#8 Edited by Hyperlight (5455 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: well last time I checked Colossus and Sasquatch were 100+ and Thing is doing that as well ( when initially he was weaker then colossus). However,Samson is somewhere between 75 and 90 tons unless i looked over a power-up he got.

I believe it was always said that samson wasnt as strong as hulk but could win if he hit him fast and hard. could be wrong though

#9 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyperlight said:

@CadenceV2: well last time I checked Colossus and Sasquatch were 100+ and Thing is doing that as well ( when initially he was weaker then colossus). However,Samson is somewhere between 75 and 90 tons unless i looked over a power-up he got.

I believe it was always said that samson wasnt as strong as hulk but could win if he hit him fast and hard. could be wrong though

No Samson is infact 100 toner. His power is that of a starting Savage Hulk. He is no where below 100 toner and his near even fights with Mindless Savage (the second strongest Hulk form who breaks adamantium) is legendary.

#10 Posted by Hyperlight (5455 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: so did he get at boost in the last couple of years?

#11 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyperlight: He was Depowered and Re Empowered. I dont have the Issue Numbers again and might have to load those one day. Bur he was depowered from the Leader if I remember right and re empowered with the more stronger and currrent Svage hulk a few years later. He has been a 100 toner since.

#12 Posted by Hyperlight (5455 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Hyperlight: He was Depowered and Re Empowered. I dont have the Issue Numbers again and might have to load those one day. Bur he was depowered from the Leader if I remember right and re empowered with the more stronger and currrent Svage hulk a few years later. He has been a 100 toner since.

oh well thats really dope and you just gave me some good news

#13 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyperlight: @CadenceV2

I see this as a pretty even fight. They're all approximately at the same level of overall formidability, when taking their different strengths, invulnerabilities, and fighting abilities together.  I honestly don't know who would win.

But I'd like to discuss Sasquatch and Samson. Sasquatch is sometimes a jobber as Cadence says (losing to Sabretooth, which I've heard of but haven't seen, is ridiculous). But at Sasquatch's best? He's very good. These aren't my scans, I think they're Sandiego008's: 
Sasquatch vs Hulk, in which he gets better real hits in than Samson ever does (Hulk annual 8).  Sasquatch fights Hulk for fun.  I should point out that much has been made of Hulk's backhanding of Sasquatch at the end, but if you read it, you'll realize Sasquatch decided to stop fighting before then.

AND
Sasquatch vs Juggernaut, in which he also does a pretty darn good job (Uncanny X-Men 422).  He knocks Jugg's helmet off, and stands pretty even with him as the fight progresses:

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p20.jpg

2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p21.jpg

3. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...Sama/p22-23.jpg

4. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p24.jpg

5. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p25.jpg

6. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p26.jpg

7. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p29.jpg

8. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p31.jpg

9. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p33.jpg

10. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p34.jpg

11. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p35.jpg

12. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p36.jpg

13. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...me-Sama/p38.jpg

 
His strength has gone up and down, as everyone's has, but he's got some of the more impressive strength feats for classic Marvel (I believe these are Jashro44's scans):
Lifting an ~5000 ton destroyer out of the water, and then catching a passenger jet and throwing it backwards:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/79822/2142922-hulk_annual_1979_008_11.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/79822/2142920-sasplane1.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/79822/2142921-uncannyx_men120b.jpg
 
I've rarely seen these other guys do something of that strength level.
 
Also, to answer the question about relative strength levels, I believe they are probably all functionally around class 100 now.  But IF Sampson is up there--and we'll get to that in a minute--he's the weakest of the four.
 
Back in the 80s, when most of Cadence's scans are from (and also when the Sasquatch scans immediately above are from, so there's some accuracy for ya!), the OHOTMU of the time listed the characters at these levels:
Colossus: 70 tons
Thing: 85 tons
Sasquatch: 70 tons
Samson: 25 tons.
The Hulk of that period, incidentally, had an at-rest strength level of 70  tons himself, and only went to class 100 when enraged.
 
Samson's lower strength was not an inaccuracy, it was an official part of his character.  He always somehow managed to survive, but was never good enough to beat the Hulk.  This inferiority came to affect him psychologically, so that when Fall of the Hulks came around a couple years ago, he became totally unstable specifically for that reason.  In the next scans, he's having a delusional psychological confessional within his own split personality.  He points out that he could only beat the Hulk in his dreams, and that losing so many times made him feel impotent.  (These are obviously out of a much longer story, but they get across the basic context which is that even Samson doesn't think he's done well against the Hulk.)
 
Samson only wins in his dreams
Samson always loses

 

.

Now, Samson did eventually have his strength amped, as has every heavy-hitter in the MU.  Thing, Colossus, Sasquatch, they're all considered 100+ tonners now.  Interestingly however, this Marvel entry on Samson, included especially in the 2010 Fall of the Hulks Gamma along with entries on the various other Hulks of the time, shows him as a class 7 in strength, but then specifically lists him as a 75 tonner.  I'm willing to give him some benefit of the doubt here, since these things are never perfectly accurate, but it seems reasonable to assume that he is the weakest of the 4 combatants in this thread.  I believe Samson died soon after and then there was some folderol about his ghost, but I don't think he got any more strength amps after this.  If he has, I'm happy to hear details.
 
Samson is a 75 tonner

 

.

Now, I don't think Samson is a total loser--I have a certain respect for him, and he has grown as a fighter.  Even his old losses to Hulk were still noble losses.  In these Fall of the Hulk scans, we see the end of a fight against a Hulked-up marine that Samson made.  Samson was losing pretty badly (before the scans), but comes back and beats him.  In doing so, he talks about how his constant losses eventually taught him to fight, not duel.  He became more ruthless.  This is a quality that I think would add to Samson's outcome in this fight. 
 

 
However, let's talk about CadenceV4's scans now.
 
The first one (splash page) is meaningless.
 
The second set with Unus?  Unus is a tough villian, but here Samson beats him by giving him airsickness!  Come on.  This is ridiculous and means nothing.
 
The third set with the Hulkbuster?  Yes, easy win--against losers, as he calls them in this later reminiscence (which they certainly are).  You'll note that he also comments on losing badly to the Hulk later in the same scan. 
 
Samson recalls losing to Hulk

 

.

The fourth set, against the Hulk: This is a good, solid fight.  Samson gets some good licks in.
 
The fifth set, against the Hulk: Not as impressive.  Around scan #10 we see how he gets really trashed by Hulk.  The cover for this comic really says it all.
 
The sixth set, against the Hulk: He doesn't do anything really worthwhile here at all.
 
The seventh set, against the Hulk: he trades a few blows but nothing amazing. Samson ultimately falls to the gas, showing less than Hulk durability.
 
The final large scans are better, much more real solid hitting.

However, I don't really see any amazing skill anywhere.  The Thing is a skilled pugilist and boxer and is known for his fighting ability even when he doesn't have his powers.  Colossus also has gained a lot of skills and had trained in the Danger room constantly, and with people like Wolverine as teachers.  Samson has had no formal fighting training as far as I know.  If we had a match between a depowered Thing, Colossus, and Samson, there's no way he could stand up to either of the other two.  I don't think his durability is near the Hulk's, nor Thing's or especially Colossus's: again the whole point of his character is that he is less than the Hulk in his stats, but manages to survive their fights through his brains.  (Sasquatch's durability is probably less, but he has a healing factor.)  Samson's agility, on the other hand, is much better than the others here.
 
I wanted to pump up Sasquatch here, and somewhat deflate Samson from what I think was Cadence's somewhat overly-high estimation.  But at the end, I want to reiterate my original point, which is that either team could win this.  Samson's brains and agility would help him against the stronger strength/durability stats and skills that the others have.
#14 Edited by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: Damn good arguement

#15 Posted by Hyperlight (5455 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie:that was a good argument..... where did you get all those scans? hahah rhetorical

#16 Posted by PrinceIMC (5421 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Sasquatch and Thing win this one.

#17 Posted by mypasswordis1234 (1106 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1. Doc Samson was capable to KO Hulk with his strongest punch. If it's evil Samson, he is even stronger. Colossus vs Thing is hard to decide, but if the fight starts Samson vs Thing, Samson could win and then 2 against 1. I may be wrong, but Samson fought against She Hulk well, and I saw a scan where Thing watched She Hulk train and surprised how much stronger than he.

#18 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

Samson was never an honest match for Hulk.

Hulk coming remotely close to losing against Doc is a definitive low end showing and a Hulk at the lower scale of his strength amp. Most I've seen in their more common showings, Samson's barely been able to contain Hulk at best. There were a few scan orgies shown herein wherein certain pics were cherry picked to make Samson look far better than the actual outcome of the battle denotes.

I feel that the Thing defeats either Samson or Colossus (close fight) one on one where Sasquatch could go either way in each battle ... probably losing a slight majority to Piotr in this day and age whilst breaking even enough with Samson due to superior physical strength.

#19 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Thing wins

#20 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: The point of my scans is he easily takes on a enrage Savage Hulk and held his own more so than most.

As for the Feats of Mindless Hulk, well MH trashed the Avengers with Namor, Wonder Man, Herculese, and Centurion Iron Man easy multiple times.

This is Mindless Hulk had to be BFRed. Broke pure Adamantium!

Then tha Avengers tried to put Mindless Savage down with their Heaviest Hitters! Including Centurion Iron Man, Namor, Hercules, and Wonder Man.

Yet as powerful Mindless Savage Hulk was Samson consistently thru Skill and Agility lasted by himself.

Samson First Match against Mindless Hulk.

Samson Second Match vs Mindless Hulk. He was still conscious after all this as well. Never KOed.

Heck Samson even easily brushed of Namor, Hercules, Wonder Man, and Iron Man trying to hold him down!

There is no reason AT ALL to say samos is the weakest link when he does this when angry!

@Super_SoldierXII: You say Samson should never match Hulk. We all know Thing, Colossus, and Dr. S cant match Savage Hulk at all. at least Samson (as I showed) was more than capable lasting against Savage Hulk and more importantly survive by his lonesome vs Mindless Savage Hulk.

He deserves credit.

#21 Posted by 18hunt (2891 posts) - - Show Bio

Squach and thing Dom... Colossus needs to go to the recycling

#22 Posted by hyiena (1790 posts) - - Show Bio

Sasquatch seems to be lacking in the durability department. I think he could be a weak link.

#23 Posted by 18hunt (2891 posts) - - Show Bio

Squach trashes colossus as the thing holds off Doc, then due to speed and strength (speed of sassy), team 2 wins.

#24 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

Bah ... to which I say Wolverine's had better showings against Hulk than this lot.

The writer above was trying to suggest the others were somehow 'tired' after their fight with Hulk. It's old, tired and lazy writing really. Kinda silly. (I know I own that very book somewhere ...)

Samson's done 'OK' until the Hulk gets amped enough and angry enough ... even taking just Savage Hulk incarnations, the whole "the angrier he gets, the stronger he gets" schtick leaves a lot of leeway in discerning what 'kind' of Hulk Samson was scrapping with. He certainly doesn't have better showings against ole greenskin than Ben does. And yet, just because Grimm went a few rounds with Hulk, doesn't mean there was never a doubt in our minds about the outcome. Same with Samson. Only the ultimate outcome is even clearer IMHO.

Though I will give an agility advantage to Colossus and Samson that could definitely play to their advantage ...

#25 Posted by jashro44 (19616 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

All in all Sasquatch is a HORRIBLE Jobber who lost to Sabertooth rather easily.

To be fair Sampson was one shotted by Luke Cage in Black Panther #25. Not saying he should be one shotted by cage but Sampson has jobbed before.

#26 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: To be fair.

100 Toner Dr. S >>>>> 2 Toner Sabertooth

100 Toner Doc S >>> 20 Toner Luke Cage.

:)

#27 Edited by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

Samson's also been KO'd by a bomb that Wolverine tanked. His durability as far as bricks go is lackluster.

And Hulk never broke true adamantium. -_-.

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#28 Posted by jashro44 (19616 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@jashro44: To be fair.

100 Toner Dr. S >>>>> 2 Toner Sabertooth

100 Toner Doc S >>> 20 Toner Luke Cage.

:)

Adamntium sabretooth (the version Sasquatch fought) would curbstomp luke cage. He would also probably beat doc sampson as well to be honest.

#29 Edited by laflux (14159 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@jashro44: To be fair.

100 Toner Dr. S >>>>> 2 Toner Sabertooth

100 Toner Doc S >>> 20 Toner Luke Cage.

:)

Adamntium sabretooth (the version Sasquatch fought) would curbstomp luke cage. He would also probably beat doc sampson as well to be honest.

Yeah losing to 5-10 tonner with Adamantuim claws, a lighting quick healing factor, advanced combat skills, indestructible skeleton and who is much faster than you are is terrible jobbing isn't it?@jashro44 said:

@CadenceV2:

All in all Sasquatch is a HORRIBLE Jobber who lost to Sabertooth rather easily.

To be fair Sampson was one shotted by Luke Cage in Black Panther #25. Not saying he should be one shotted by cage but Sampson has jobbed before.

In all honesty I don't think being one-shotted by Luke Cage is as horrible jobbing as some would make it out to be. He did one shot Rhino after all as well- as well as fight him evenly in another event. I do believe he's got some type of amp IMO . If we go by his Bio of 25 tonnes, then in all honesty he is an fairly under-powered character. 25 tonnes is nothing to write home about at the top end of street-levelers, and characters with much more balanced stats have strength feats on that level (Spider-Man, BT, Kaine, Flash to give some Spider examples). I haven't seen anyone with feats around such a level perform thunderclaps. Granted it didn't really harm Victoria Hand, but who said he was trying to? Likewise, while Luke Cage is known for his durability, I don't recall mere class 25 bricks falling thousands of feet from a plane just for the fun of it. I'd put Cage as closer to 50, and more power to him. In his early classic days he lost to Peter twice in one issue and was roflstomped by classic Scorpion of all people, so its refreshing I guess

Anyways, my Opinion is that all the characters mentioned are 100 tonners. While Doc Samson is not on Hulk's level, fighting him continually for 6 hours means he is either a very good H2H combatant or very strong- and he is stated as having a natural skill for combat. For me, I'd say a mixture of both. He's the weakest but probably the most nimble.

As the for outcome, the Thing swings it for me. He's an above average H2H combatant with the highest strength feats of anyone here. I'd say he could even beat a base savage Hulk if he got his licks in quick, of which I'm fairly certain none of the others could do under normal situations. Doc Samson sucker punched the Hulk to KO him, and Ptior took Hulk by surprise to K.O him IIRC.

#30 Posted by jashro44 (19616 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Luke Cage one shotting the rhino is really just pis. They had another fight where rhino was without his hide and rhino did all right (and it was post upgrade cage I believe). Even if Cage is a 50 tonner it would still probably be a low showing for Sampson. I don't think Luke cage should have much of a chance let alone actually stomping Sampson.

#31 Posted by Captain_Awesome85 (452 posts) - - Show Bio

Doc may not be the tank these other characters are, but he does have them easily in the brains department. In the end I think with a little strategy The Doc and Colossus use thing as a bat to beat down Sasquatch and take this. One on one I think he is the weakest link in this fight but putting him on a team opens up possibilities.

#32 Posted by SupremeHyperion (1523 posts) - - Show Bio

Doc is no slump and has thrown down with many hulks and held his own. he is smart and powerful along with colossus I think they are too strong and battle tested for Thing and Sasquatch.

#33 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@jashro44: To be fair.

100 Toner Dr. S >>>>> 2 Toner Sabertooth

100 Toner Doc S >>> 20 Toner Luke Cage.

:)

Adamntium sabretooth (the version Sasquatch fought) would curbstomp luke cage. He would also probably beat doc sampson as well to be honest.

And I know it's contested, but Creed's strength levels do not cap at 2 tons. His strength feats far outweigh that limitation. The real McCoy, written the way Claremont had intended (i.e. the only non cloned version running around) KO'd a Ms. Marvel enhanced Rogue back in the day by swinging her around like a baseball bat ala BAM BAM from the Flintstones.

"BANG baby-doll. You dead."

Classic.

#34 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio
@CadenceV2 said:

@Owie: The point of my scans is he easily takes on a enrage Savage Hulk and held his own more so than most.


There is no reason AT ALL to say samos is the weakest link when he does this when angry!

@Super_SoldierXII: You say Samson should never match Hulk. We all know Thing, Colossus, and Dr. S cant match Savage Hulk at all. at least Samson (as I showed) was more than capable lasting against Savage Hulk and more importantly survive by his lonesome vs Mindless Savage Hulk.

He deserves credit.

No one's arguing about how tough the Hulk is, of course.
 
Most of those Samson scans are ones you already posted.
 
I was actually going to post some scans from that last issue you just posted (above) but decided not to because I didn't want to get in a tnagential argument about why he could toss those guys off him.  Just remember Byrne specifically had him say that he could only do it because they were already tired from fighting the Hulk.
 
I'll just post the two excerpts I was going to show the other day, one of which is actually in your scans, and one of which comes right after.  They specifically point out that Samson has only a "fraction" of the Hulk's power, and that he is much weaker than all the other guys who are there in that battle (whereas the '80s Sasquatch, Colossus, and Thing are pretty close in strength to the '80s Iron Man, Wonder Man, and Namor, and I would argue that that is also the case today.  I can run those exact numbers by you if you want). Despite all this, I do think Samson has done remarkably well against the Hulk considering his weaker strength.  I'm not trying to put him down too much, but even Samson thinks he's been a pretty consistent loser in all his major conflicts, as evidenced by all his mental imbalance due to exactly that.
 
Samson has only a fraction of the Hulk's strength
Samson is less powerful than any of them
#35 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks!

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@jashro44 said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@jashro44: To be fair.

100 Toner Dr. S >>>>> 2 Toner Sabertooth

100 Toner Doc S >>> 20 Toner Luke Cage.

:)

Adamntium sabretooth (the version Sasquatch fought) would curbstomp luke cage. He would also probably beat doc sampson as well to be honest.

And I know it's contested, but Creed's strength levels do not cap at 2 tons. His strength feats far outweigh that limitation. The real McCoy, written the way Claremont had intended (i.e. the only non cloned version running around) KO'd a Ms. Marvel enhanced Rogue back in the day by swinging her around like a baseball bat ala BAM BAM from the Flintstones.

"BANG baby-doll. You dead."

Classic.

Ha ha--that was a classic line from Creed. Although I don't personally think Claremont generally wrote Sabretooth as being too much over 2 tons. He usually had him and Wolvie scuffle around pretty evenly, with them both agreeing that Sabretooth was bigger, faster, and stronger, with Wolvie's claws and bones being all that saved him. But if Sabretooth was much more than 2 tons, he would have had way too much of an advantage over Wolverine. I know Wolverine's strength is also highly debated, but I'd argue that at least classically, he was normal human strength. That's why his wins over people like Shingen meant something. So if Logan was normal human, then Creed couldn't be that much above him.

Of course, while we're talking old-school Sabretooth, he was also beaten by Black Cat!

#36 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6170 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie:

Correction; old school Sabes written to job by other writers jobbed to Black Cat ;)

He was not written thus by Chris, unless a clone of him was assumed (I daresay).

While I agree, Wolverine was written as peak human for a time, I don't think this fact automatically implies Creed was not stronger than 2 tons. The adamantium and martial training was, during such times, always meant to compensate and justify Wolverine being able to hang with these far physically stronger blokes. Physically Creed was, in actuality, tossing Wolverine around through walls, through roofs, as though he were little more than a child's plaything.

And Shingen is a skill showing. I don't think strength mattered a wit against him. Whether Wolverine was a 1-2 tonner or peak human, Shingen was, and ever will be, all about skill.

#37 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17297 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: he did, when he was mindless, with his hide.( pure)

as savage he only bent it multiple times. (secondary)

#38 Edited by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAcidSkull: All previous instances of adamantium breaking were retconned into secondary adamantium. Otherwise, it is still PIS considering all of its other showings since Wolverine isn't a crumbled up metal ball.

Moderator
#39 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17297 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@TheAcidSkull: All previous instances of adamantium breaking were retconned into secondary adamantium. Otherwise, it is still PIS considering all of its other showings since Wolverine isn't a crumbled up metal ball.

As far as i know , the mindless hulk is a part of hulks history, so i don't know weather it was retconned or not, there was a mention of PURE adamantium in world was hulk i think.

#40 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Owie:

Correction; old school Sabes written to job by other writers jobbed to Black Cat ;)

He was not written thus by Chris, unless a clone of him was assumed (I daresay).

Ha! True dat.

While I agree, Wolverine was written as peak human for a time, I don't think this fact automatically implies Creed was not stronger than 2 tons. The adamantium and martial training was, during such times, always meant to compensate and justify Wolverine being able to hang with these far physically stronger blokes. Physically Creed was, in actuality, tossing Wolverine around through walls, through roofs, as though he were little more than a child's plaything.

And Shingen is a skill showing. I don't think strength mattered a wit against him. Whether Wolverine was a 1-2 tonner or peak human, Shingen was, and ever will be, all about skill.

Oh, I agree it was all about skill...I just don't strength to muddy the waters. I think it's reasonable to say that a skilled sword fighter (with either a katana or longsword) can defeat someone much stronger, although I'm constantly having to argue that fact against those who want to say that stronger characters' strength comes into play because can parry so hard that they'll knock the other person back, break their sword, etc. But skill is skill.

#41 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: He kinda did.

Its stated its pure Adamantium.

Plain as day :) Hulks Durability Cracked it all over and his Fingers smashed into more of it.

@TheAcidSkull said:

@god_spawn: he did, when he was mindless, with his hide.( pure)

as savage he only bent it multiple times. (secondary)

Bamsky!

@TheAcidSkull said:

@god_spawn said:

@TheAcidSkull: All previous instances of adamantium breaking were retconned into secondary adamantium. Otherwise, it is still PIS considering all of its other showings since Wolverine isn't a crumbled up metal ball.

As far as i know , the mindless hulk is a part of hulks history, so i don't know weather it was retconned or not, there was a mention of PURE adamantium in world was hulk i think.

There never was a Retcon for Savage Hulk feats.

@Owie said:

I'll just post the two excerpts I was going to show the other day, one of which is actually in your scans, and one of which comes right after. They specifically point out that Samson has only a "fraction" of the Hulk's power, and that he is much weaker than all the other guys who are there in that battle (whereas the '80s Sasquatch, Colossus, and Thing are pretty close in strength to the '80s Iron Man, Wonder Man, and Namor, and I would argue that that is also the case today. I can run those exact numbers by you if you want). Despite all this, I do think Samson has done remarkably well against the Hulk considering his weaker strength. I'm not trying to put him down too much, but even Samson thinks he's been a pretty consistent loser in all his major conflicts, as evidenced by all his mental imbalance due to exactly that.

Samson has only a fraction of the Hulk's strength
Samson is less powerful than any of them

You say they were tired yet Herculese hangs with WWH easy. Iron man doesn't get tired its a machine he operates.So again you have these 2 guys getting thrown off by Samson.

Also Samson does only have a Fraction of Hulks power! The Fraction of a Starting Hulk witch is 100 tons. He cant get stronger like Hulk does which is why Samson had a fraction of Mindless Savage Hulk.

BAMSKY!

#42 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Owie said:

I'll just post the two excerpts I was going to show the other day, one of which is actually in your scans, and one of which comes right after. They specifically point out that Samson has only a "fraction" of the Hulk's power, and that he is much weaker than all the other guys who are there in that battle (whereas the '80s Sasquatch, Colossus, and Thing are pretty close in strength to the '80s Iron Man, Wonder Man, and Namor, and I would argue that that is also the case today. I can run those exact numbers by you if you want). Despite all this, I do think Samson has done remarkably well against the Hulk considering his weaker strength. I'm not trying to put him down too much, but even Samson thinks he's been a pretty consistent loser in all his major conflicts, as evidenced by all his mental imbalance due to exactly that.

Samson has only a fraction of the Hulk's strength
Samson is less powerful than any of them

You say they were tired yet Herculese hangs with WWH easy. Iron man doesn't get tired its a machine he operates.So again you have these 2 guys getting thrown off by Samson.

Also Samson does only have a Fraction of Hulks power! The Fraction of a Starting Hulk witch is 100 tons. He cant get stronger like Hulk does which is why Samson had a fraction of Mindless Savage Hulk.

BAMSKY!

Huh? The Hulk's starting strength in that era, as I pointed out before, is 70 tons. In that era, Samson has a fraction of that starting strength--25 tons. It's kind of clear.

#43 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@Owie said:

I'll just post the two excerpts I was going to show the other day, one of which is actually in your scans, and one of which comes right after. They specifically point out that Samson has only a "fraction" of the Hulk's power, and that he is much weaker than all the other guys who are there in that battle (whereas the '80s Sasquatch, Colossus, and Thing are pretty close in strength to the '80s Iron Man, Wonder Man, and Namor, and I would argue that that is also the case today. I can run those exact numbers by you if you want). Despite all this, I do think Samson has done remarkably well against the Hulk considering his weaker strength. I'm not trying to put him down too much, but even Samson thinks he's been a pretty consistent loser in all his major conflicts, as evidenced by all his mental imbalance due to exactly that.

Samson has only a fraction of the Hulk's strength
Samson is less powerful than any of them

You say they were tired yet Herculese hangs with WWH easy. Iron man doesn't get tired its a machine he operates.So again you have these 2 guys getting thrown off by Samson.

Also Samson does only have a Fraction of Hulks power! The Fraction of a Starting Hulk witch is 100 tons. He cant get stronger like Hulk does which is why Samson had a fraction of Mindless Savage Hulk.

BAMSKY!

Huh? The Hulk's starting strength in that era, as I pointed out before, is 70 tons. In that era, Samson has a fraction of that starting strength--25 tons. It's kind of clear.

Except ypur totally wrong on that by alot.

I work construction Equipment and my D7 Dozer alone weighs 53 tons. That is twice as large and made of Up Armor materials to beat Hulk. Its also pressing down on Samson with its Hydralics meaning more than 50 tons alone there.

So wrong again on the guess work.

#44 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Owie said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@Owie said:

I'll just post the two excerpts I was going to show the other day, one of which is actually in your scans, and one of which comes right after. They specifically point out that Samson has only a "fraction" of the Hulk's power, and that he is much weaker than all the other guys who are there in that battle (whereas the '80s Sasquatch, Colossus, and Thing are pretty close in strength to the '80s Iron Man, Wonder Man, and Namor, and I would argue that that is also the case today. I can run those exact numbers by you if you want). Despite all this, I do think Samson has done remarkably well against the Hulk considering his weaker strength. I'm not trying to put him down too much, but even Samson thinks he's been a pretty consistent loser in all his major conflicts, as evidenced by all his mental imbalance due to exactly that.

Samson has only a fraction of the Hulk's strength
Samson is less powerful than any of them

You say they were tired yet Herculese hangs with WWH easy. Iron man doesn't get tired its a machine he operates.So again you have these 2 guys getting thrown off by Samson.

Also Samson does only have a Fraction of Hulks power! The Fraction of a Starting Hulk witch is 100 tons. He cant get stronger like Hulk does which is why Samson had a fraction of Mindless Savage Hulk.

BAMSKY!

Huh? The Hulk's starting strength in that era, as I pointed out before, is 70 tons. In that era, Samson has a fraction of that starting strength--25 tons. It's kind of clear.

Except ypur totally wrong on that by alot.

I work construction Equipment and my D7 Dozer alone weighs 53 tons. That is twice as large and made of Up Armor materials to beat Hulk. Its also pressing down on Samson with its Hydralics meaning more than 50 tons alone there.

So wrong again on the guess work.

It's not guesswork, it's what Samson is rated in the OHOTMU from that time period. Obviously characters of all strength levels lift things exceeding their official levels all the time. For instance I showed those scans of Sasquatch lifting a 5000 ton destroyer, and also a jumbo jet, and yet he was rated 70 tons at that period. The ratings were intended to give a sense of relative strength level--a way to compare characters to each other--more than they were really intended to show the exact amount they could lift. I mean, do you need me to scan in his entry?

#45 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

@CadenceV2 said:

It's not guesswork, it's what Samson is rated in the OHOTMU from that time period. Obviously characters of all strength levels lift things exceeding their official levels all the time. For instance I showed those scans of Sasquatch lifting a 5000 ton destroyer, and also a jumbo jet, and yet he was rated 70 tons at that period. The ratings were intended to give a sense of relative strength level--a way to compare characters to each other--more than they were really intended to show the exact amount they could lift. I mean, do you need me to scan in his entry?

Yet I showed over 6 different instances of this 100 toner holding his own on a 100+ and rising toner Savage Hulk. I showed him tossing off Iron Man, Namor, Herculese, and Wonderman easy.

You provided nothing but excuses for these CONSISTENT Feats.

You also provide no Scan or Bio showing he is below 100 tons (which I still am looking for) and I bet his current Bio puts him at a easy 100 toner which is what were using for this battle.

Why argue the facts and proof?

#46 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio
@CadenceV2 said:

@Owie said:

@CadenceV2 said:

It's not guesswork, it's what Samson is rated in the OHOTMU from that time period. Obviously characters of all strength levels lift things exceeding their official levels all the time. For instance I showed those scans of Sasquatch lifting a 5000 ton destroyer, and also a jumbo jet, and yet he was rated 70 tons at that period. The ratings were intended to give a sense of relative strength level--a way to compare characters to each other--more than they were really intended to show the exact amount they could lift. I mean, do you need me to scan in his entry?

Yet I showed over 6 different instances of this 100 toner holding his own on a 100+ and rising toner Savage Hulk. I showed him tossing off Iron Man, Namor, Herculese, and Wonderman easy.

You provided nothing but excuses for these CONSISTENT Feats.

You also provide no Scan or Bio showing he is below 100 tons (which I still am looking for) and I bet his current Bio puts him at a easy 100 toner which is what were using for this battle.

Why argue the facts and proof?


I didn't show you any scans of the old bios because you didn't ask, and because I assumed you don't think I'm making it up.  But since you ask, here they are.  I'm including the other people in this thread for comparison, because as I said I think the main point of these handbook entries is to show the characters' comparative strengths.  If Thing is shown as having about 3 times Samson's strength then, then that's also probably true now.  Here we go once more: Sasquatch at 70, Thing at 85, Colossus at 70, and Samson at 25.  And once again for comparison, the Hulk's resting strength is 70.  I gave you the whole entry for Samson since that's who we're focusing on.

Sasquatch 1986 stats
Thing 1986 stats
Colossus 1986 stats
Samson entry #1
Samson entry #2
Hulk 1986 stats

.
.

.

When it comes to his current bio, you'll recall I showed it to you in my first post.  But since you don't remember, here it is again.  You'll note that its says right there that he's currently at 75 tons.

Samson is a 75 tonner

.

When it comes to his feats, I completely disagree, as I said in my first post, that all those fights you posted are of equal worth, or that they are consistent with each other.  One or two of them show him actually doing well against the Hulk.  The others don't show anything special at all.  Those good fights are easily Samson's best fights and I wouldn't necessarily use them as a yardstick for the rest of his career or being indicative of his standard capabilities.  As I showed in all kinds of scans, even Samson doesn't think he's done well against the Hulk overall, and in fact the whole point of his character is that he wants to be able to really fight Hulk, but can't quite do it.  If you really want me to break it down punch by punch I can, but I think it's pretty obvious that he's really not doing much of anything in some of them.

Throwing off Herc etc. was explained right in the comic as being because they're tired.  Also, obviously, they're not trying too hard because he's a good guy.  Also, they say right there in the comic that he's not as powerful as any of them.  I mean, I assume you don't think he's actually tough enough to fight all those guys.

Finally, fighting the Hulk is in no way an indication of exactly what strength level someone has.  The Thing, as you've pointed out, has lost to Hulk, but has given him a decent punch or two.  Yet that doesn't mean the old classic Thing was a 100 tonner.  Hell, Sabra used to fight the Hulk.  She's a 50 tonner.  So did Woodgod (50 tonner) and all sorts of other far-below-100-tonners.  All those scans of Samson knocking Hulk up in the air, or whatever, don't mean much.  The Hulk only weighs about a thousand pounds, it doesn't take much to knock him around.  What it takes a lot of strength to do is to damage him, and that is something Samson hasn't done a hell of a lot of.  Samson was a 25 tonner.  Now he's a 75 tonner.  If I want to be charitable and call him a 100 tonner despite his bio, he is still the weakest of the guys in this thread.
 
And yet you'll recall that I'm not saying his team will lose, or that he's not capable of fighting these other guys.  He's just not the strongest.  If you think he can lift a jumbo jet, or a navy destroyer, show me some scans that put him on the strength level of these other guys.
 

#47 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie said:

I thanks for the Current Bio which states "can lift over 75 tons" and has a rating 7 meaning 100+ toner.

That proves he is a 100+ toner.

That alone is a couple 1000 tons.

Add to this the SUPERIOR Agility and Speed and you have the best fighter here IMO.

Were not getting anywhere anymore and thanks for the Bios.

#48 Posted by God_Spawn (37316 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

He kinda did.
Its stated its pure Adamantium.
Plain as day :) Hulks Durability Cracked it all over and his Fingers smashed into more of it.

Which as I said before was all retconned and a purpose for the introduction of secondary adamantium. The scan is null.

Moderator
#49 Posted by laflux (14159 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Nice scan. As I said, I think Samson is a 100 Tonner too. I'd still say he's weaker than Thing and Sas, but has more agility and speed to make up for it.

Also for the last entry, wasn't that Samson, rather than Doc Samson being used. I know both are 100 tonners based on feats, but Samson, which is Doc Samson's dark personality is supposed to be stronger IIRC.

#50 Posted by Owie (3620 posts) - - Show Bio
@CadenceV2 said:

@Owie said:

I thanks for the Current Bio which states "can lift over 75 tons" and has a rating 7 meaning 100+ toner.

That proves he is a 100+ toner.

That alone is a couple 1000 tons.

Add to this the SUPERIOR Agility and Speed and you have the best fighter here IMO.

Were not getting anywhere anymore and thanks for the Bios.

OK, agreed we're not getting anywhere, I'll stop. I will give props for that scan.  Kind of ridiculous in an old-school way, but still impressive.  I would note that when a bio like Samson's current one says over 75 tons, it still means in the vicinity of 75.  Others bios that were in the same collection listed higher numbers for different characters, it's not like they stopped counting at 75; if they meant 100, they would have said 100.  There is a discrepancy between the 7 rating and the 75 ton description; I think the 7 rating is the "typo," so to speak.  I'm sure you think the opposite, and there's no proving that one way or the other, so we can let that drop.  And I would just point out that I've agreed that Samson is faster and more agile than anyone in this thread from the beginning, which is why I still think he's more or less an equally formidable fighter as all of the rest of them, despite being somewhat weaker.