@beatboks1: But you gotta admit that way to debate is cool from Blinder_full_of_fails. Anyone who disagrees with me is wanking, that sounds like a perfect counter in most debate.
I ask for actual evidence to support an unfounded claim and that somehow makes me the bad guy? Yeah, Sounds like a bunch of wankers to me. If one of you could actually post a scan to support Slim's claims about flash you'd have more to show for your efforts than juvenile name calling.
@Lvenger: It's okay, we're all wankers here and we will perform wank debates. He can go and participate in a none wanker thread if he chooses to make one. Here I am wanking away with Countdown 48.
Acknowledging that you're wanking doesn't make it okay. You should change your wicked ways before it's too late. Superman was near Vega when he got Jimmy's Signal. It doesn't say or show how Superman got back from Vega. He owns a spaceship for when he needs to travel to other solar systems which was shown in action comics 847. Or he could have been teleported by Watchtower. People can interpret things differently than how you choose to interpret something. Inferring from other post you've made that seems to bother you. You're suggesting he flew 24 times faster than light, yet on the very next page failed to fly fast enough to catch Lightray's attacker before they stepped into a boomtube?
In For Tomorrow Superman was also cut by titanium; failed to to move faster than bullets.
How did he fail to move faster than bullets? I'm assuming that you are referring to the incident when Equus unloads an LMG onto all those captives? Superman overheard Equus' words on the General's radio and began to move the instant he pulled the trigger. He moved fast enough to travel the entire distance and pin-point where Equus was, but was unable to stop the attack because the bullets were already in motion.
In For Tomorrow Superman was also cut by titanium; failed to to move faster than bullets.
How did he fail to move faster than bullets? I'm assuming that you are referring to the incident when Equus unloads an LMG onto all those captives? Superman overheard Equus' words on the General's radio and began to move the instant he pulled the trigger. He moved fast enough to travel the entire distance and pin-point where Equus was, but was unable to stop the attack because the bullets were already in motion.
Which means he failed to move faster than a bullet. I'm not suggesting superman is slower than a bullet, I'm just mentioning this happened in the same comic someone was referring to. He was unable to match the speed of bullets before they gunned down a group of men. This is the same superman who moved pretty quickly to stop a bullet from killing lois who was miles away.
In For Tomorrow Superman was also cut by titanium; failed to to move faster than bullets.
How did he fail to move faster than bullets? I'm assuming that you are referring to the incident when Equus unloads an LMG onto all those captives? Superman overheard Equus' words on the General's radio and began to move the instant he pulled the trigger. He moved fast enough to travel the entire distance and pin-point where Equus was, but was unable to stop the attack because the bullets were already in motion.
Which means he failed to move faster than a bullet. I'm not suggesting superman is slower than a bullet, I'm just mentioning this happened in the same comic someone was referring to. He was unable to match the speed of bullets before they gunned down a group of men. This is the same superman who moved pretty quickly to stop a bullet from killing lois who was miles away.
No! Speed is measured measured by distance/time he does not have to catch up to them to surpass their speed, he just has to travel a further distance than them over the same time frame.
Which means he failed to move faster than a bullet. I'm not suggesting superman is slower than a bullet, I'm just mentioning this happened in the same comic someone was referring to. He was unable to match the speed of bullets before they gunned down a group of men. This is the same superman who moved pretty quickly to stop a bullet from killing lois who was miles away.
The distance was undetermined and from the appearance, it was in the middle of the desert, a decent distance away from the city where Superman was an instant before making the move to stop Equus. Regardless, the spread was too large to stop and he moved too late to stop the bullets.
I ask for actual evidence of someones to support an unfounded claim and that somehow makes me the bad guy? Yeah, Sounds like a bunch of wankers to me. If one of you could actually post a scan to support Slim's claims about flash you'd have more to show for your efforts than juvenile name calling.
Ugh, fine. I get the feeling efforts like this are wasted on someone like you, but then again if it'll stop you from ruining this thread......Flash's durability usually increases in tandem with higher rates of speed and occasionally, depending on the writer, he possesses enhanced durability even without moving. Deathstroke stabbed him in the lung because he was demonstrably moving slower than sound. Slade's claim of being "just that fast" is rubbish (and I'm curious as to why you seem to give it some level of credence) given that he has also been blitzed by Superman, who is slower than any Flash you care to mention (except Max Mercury, screw that guy).
From Flash #136-137: Wally gets pulled into a black hole with a radius of 50 AU and resists the stress of it before using the Speed Force to break free of its gravity. Anything not superhumanly durable would have been ripped apart instantly. This is also one of those instances where the writer chooses to make FTL speeds a lethal option for Flash.
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Note how in the first scan, Wally remarks that his suit "absorbs unimaginable G-forces". A trained astronaut can only resist up to 6g before running the risk of death, but Wally's suit (which is constructed entirely out of Speed Force energy) absorbs vastly more than that.
This is also another thing that I'm curious about; in your first thread you posted a scan from this issue while trying to argue that Flash cannot go superluminal without dying. Did you actually read the issue first? If so, did it skip your attention that Flash resisted the stress of a black hole in this issue, something no object without enhanced durability can do? The only time when he even expresses any pain is when he scratches the Speed Force wall. The black hole wasn't even the dangerous part.
From Green Lantern #44 and Blackest Night #2: Barry Allen gets hit twice by the Black Lantern Martian Manhunter and the second hit lands him in a vat of chemicals. None of that even slows him down ultimately and he is still able to lure J'onn into a trap that Hal springs. Barry also endures the heat of a chemical explosion while creating the furnace that surrounds MMH.
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From Flash #220: Zoom punches Jay Garrick so hard he flies all the way from New York to Dallas and all Jay has to show for it are some bruises. I would dearly love to see you try and argue that someone who does not possess, at the least, enhanced durability can endure a punch like that. It's also a bit telling that Zoom wasn't even trying to kill Jay when he did that; so he knew Jay would survive.
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From JLA Classified #50: Wally gets punched right in the face by Titus, someone stronger than Superman and Wonder Woman put together. It doesn't knock him out or kill him; he just gets floored for a while and 2 pages later, he's back on his feet again until Titus hits him with a beam that BFR's him away.
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Titus was so strong a weaker version of him did this to Superman:
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And the version that punched Flash did this to Superman AND Wonder Woman:
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I have dozens more examples, but will these suffice? Or will you only be satisfied by a scan of Wally pinning down an innocent bystander and explaining how his powers work with every conceivable detail? Flash has enhanced durability.
I also laughed when you took Slim's shock-wave example and tried to claim that since Linda was hit by a shock-wave and didn't die, clearly the waves weren't much. Anyone who has actually read the comic in question would know that Zoom himself said it would only be a matter of time before Linda died from the injuries he inflicted, and the only reason she survived was because Flash was fast enough to rush her to the hospital where the doctors could stabilize her in time, and even in stabilized condition she was described as being "hurt pretty bad".
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Flash bore the shock-waves in addition to getting punched through skyscrapers, and that's not enough for you?
Your method of debunking is pitiful, honestly. You get an idea stuck in your head and decry any and all other claims to the contrary as "wanking". All you're doing here is ruining the discussion of this thread the way you ruined your own. If you can't be civil or courteous while debating, at least make some vague attempt to be reasonable and rational. Otherwise, no one's compelling you to post.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have a management exam to cram for...
Now if you'll excuse me, I have a management exam to cram for...
lmao ... good luck
Phase 2: Binders Full of S**t!
Honestly the guy is a joke. His reveals are being torn down left right and center, and he still wants more. Well at least he's making writing my essay more interesting.
I have indexed the thread as best as possible. As of right now there are not enough discussions to separate the sections by character and alphabetical order although that is my next step.
Also, new rule.
3. Before you challenge a statement from another person, please reread what they wrote. In your own post, before you question it reexplain what that person is trying to convey and then point out what contradicts it. This is how debating should be done, flame wars start from misinterpretations or people refusing to understand where the other person is coming from. Even if you know they are wrong, but yourself in their shoes. Understanding what they are conveying perfectly will only make your counter stronger.
Ugh, fine. I get the feeling efforts like this are wasted on someone like you, but then again if it'll stop you from ruining this thread
Flash's durability usually increases in tandem with higher rates of speed and occasionally, depending on the writer, he possesses enhanced durability even without moving. Deathstroke stabbed him in the lung because he was demonstrably moving slower than sound. Slade's claim of being "just that fast" is rubbish (and I'm curious as to why you seem to give it some level of credence) given that he has also been blitzed by Superman, who is slower than any Flash you care to mention (except Max Mercury, screw that guy). From Flash #136-137: Wally gets pulled into a black hole with a radius of 50 AU and resists the stress of it before using the Speed Force to break free of its gravity. Anything not superhumanly durable would have been ripped apart instantly. This is also one of those instances where the writer chooses to make FTL speeds a lethal option for Flash.
Do you have evidence that proves that this is anything other than conjecture? Why can't you show me is a scan that actually states the speed force increases durability? What you're saying doesn't add up. Flash increases his durability when he gains speed, but sometimes he doesn't need to move at all? It sounds like you're just looking at instances in which flash survived things he shouldn't have and then wrote a nice little story to go with it. Batman survived an attack from Superman, heat vision and all. Slade has shot, punched, and stabbed a Flash; managed to hurt them all. That was a to for one deal in case you didn't notice. Flash has been injured by significantly less than Superman pounding evildoers so your argument falls apart. Unless you want to cherry-pick. You're not a cherry-picker are you? The speed force protects it's speedsters from the effects of speed. Which would mean G-forces. Nullifying the effects of speed is a known Flash power. Increasing a persons durability to my knowledge is not.
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I have dozens more examples, but will these suffice? Or will you only be satisfied by a scan of Wally pinning down an innocent bystander and explaining how his powers work with every conceivable detail? Flash has enhanced durability.
A dozen examples but not a one on statement from flash saying he has this power? No other flash saying they have this power? Anyone from DC saying he has this power? Flash has been injured by much less. So no this argument wont suffice.
I also laughed when you took Slim's shock-wave example and tried to claim that since Linda was hit by a shock-wave and didn't die, clearly the waves weren't much. Anyone who has actually read the comic in question would know that Zoom himself said it would only be a matter of time before Linda died from the injuries he inflicted, and the only reason she survived was because Flash was fast enough to rush her to the hospital where the doctors could stabilize her in time, and even in stabilized condition she was described as being "hurt pretty bad".
Maybe you wouldn't have laughed if you understood the context. I mentioned Linda because Slim compared Zoom's sonic booms to Doomsday and Superman punching each other. If Linda was hit by Superman or Doomsday she would be dead. There wouldn't be a matter of time. She would be dead on the spot.
Your method of debunking is pitiful, honestly. You get an idea stuck in your head and decry any and all other claims to the contrary as "wanking". All you're doing here is ruining the discussion of this thread the way you ruined your own. If you can't be civil or courteous while debating, at least make some vague attempt to be reasonable and rational. Otherwise, no one's compelling you to post. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a management exam to cram for...
My method of debunking meant that people had to have evidence to go along with their claims, so I can see why you disliked it. The only idea I got was to create a thread in which I would debunk popular feats that people liked to wank. Clearly that has upset some of you who take these discussions more seriously than others. I didn't post my ideas, I showed people pages from comic books. I've been consistent in mentioning that any claims that are unsupported by actual evidence is wank. If that offends you, that probably means you're pretty good at wanking. Name calling and Bravado is an excellent show but do you have any concrete evidence of your claims? One user of the speed force saying they have this ability? How can you expect me to disregard the scans of Flash being injured by less than what you're claiming, when you don't have evidence he actually has the power to begin with? Good luck on your exam.
Thanks to McNiven and Asmus, I've noticed some people have been denying Gambit's ability to charge organic matter and for some people who have been out of the loop don't know he can. So this blog is to set the record straight and to bring those that have been away from Gambit or the X-Men for awhile up to speed.
AvX Versus 2
The fight that started it all.
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Now here we have Gambit charging Cap's uniform. Steve says with Gambit not being able to charge organic matter to which Remy replies with "fish don't make them scales." Now 1) this issue implies that Gambit CAN'T charge organic matter. 2) That statement is false. There are at least 4 other instances of Gambit charging organic material so let's present them.
Gambit issue 5:
Gambit says he cannot charge organic matter. I expect this to be a similar situation to what happened with McNiven.
X-Men Legacy 214
So we rewind a few years and we get this.
So Gambit charges Shaw. Now I've argued before that it is Shaw's power to absorb kinetic energy which Remy is just a giant battery of. But due to further events and further interpretation to Gambit's own statements and in the situation they are in why would he lie to Shaw? Gambit said he can put his charge into anything or anyone. He also showed genuine concern for Shaw if he could convert it into energy. If Gambit couldn't charge organic material then there would be no energy building on or inside Shaw for him to absorb it.
The next scan I believe it to be in X-23's series issue 5 or 6?
Gambit self charge.
Here we have Gambit charging his own fist. This scan is possibly the most questionable since it could be argued he charged his glove instead. But this is why we have further evidence.
Daken: Dark Wolverine # 8
Gambit charges Daken's fist.
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Now Daken's fist was caught. Gambit clearly charges it and his whole arm just goes boom.
X-Men vs Vampires 2
Now I've seen this instance mentioned, but he is just charging her choker..
X-Men Vol 3 # 10
So Gambit is turned into a lizard like creature along with Wolverine and Storm due to Dark Beast and an invention of his. Gambit grabs the lizard and well you'll see what happens.
Lizard Gambit grabs a smaller lizard with his tail. He charges the lizard and throws it using it as a bomb against Emma Frost. Nothing inorganic on that lizard and Gambit was even in a feral state. Charged a living thing perfectly fine once again.
So that's it. We have a questionable instance with McNiven whom probably didn't simply do his research in the first place and one mention by Asmus in Gambit issue 5 vs 4 other instances that Gambit showed charging something organic and the latter 3 happened within the past couple of years so they are fairly recent. I simply blame the fact that it isn't something that has been officially stated and can be very easily overlooked.
@Gambler: Agreed it has and I was hoping for that too. It's honestly one of those things that writers probably just haven't picked up on due to only a few occurrences. Kind of like how there used to be multiple narrations of Cyclops' optic blasts have been stated to go light speed yet you hardly hear of that anymore. At least the Gambit fact has been happened quite a bit and recently too. You never know if Remy is gonna appear in another book and do it which might throw Asmus for a loop or something. He's got him down to a tee otherwise.
A dozen examples but not a dozen on panel statements from flash saying he has this power? No other flash saying they have this power? Anyone from DC saying he has this power? Flash has been injured by much less. That's the only argument I need.
My method of debunking meant that people had to have actual feats, so I can see why you disliked it. The only idea I got was to create a thread in which I would debunk popular feats that people like to wank. Clearly that has upset some of you who take these discussions more seriously than others. I didn't post my ideas, I showed you all some pages in a comic books. I've been consistent in saying that any claims that are unsupported by actual evidence is wank.
Do you not see the contradiction here? On-Panel statements are all well and good, but feats trump statements. Like in God_Spawn's post above, where Gambit has stated that he can't charge organic matter, but he's actually charged it several times. Feats trump statements. Bane showed feats, which is what you're asking for. He "showed you some pages in a comic book." But now you're saying the feats and pages aren't good? That you don't want examples, you want statements? Do you not see the contradiction?
Maybe you wouldn't have laughed if you understood the context. I mentioned Linda because Slim compared Zoom's sonic booms to Doomsday and Superman punching each other. If Linda was hit by a punch from Superman or Doomsday she would be dead. There wouldn't be a matter of time. She would be dead on the spot.
Slim compared the sonic booms produced by Zoom to the sonic booms produced by Doomsday. He wasn't saying the sonic booms themselves were doing the damage, he was saying the punches were as strong as Doomsday and Superman's, and Flash was tanking them. Wonder Woman has stated on-panel that Zoom's hits hurt more than Superman's, (There, a statement. Happy?), and Flash tanked Zoom's punches. So Slim used that as more evidence of Flash's superhuman durability.
So a flash can take blows from Titus, and get hurt by bullets?
Why not? He'd hardly be the first character to have good durability against blunt trauma and not penetration. Wolverine? Wonder Woman? Spider-Man? The Hulk, even? Need I go on? And at least from my perspective, blunt trauma durability makes sense within the Speed-Force Protection umbrella. When Flash runs at supersonic speeds, he's pushing against air so hard that its density increases to that of steel. By the time he gets up to near-light, that's about as solid a surface as anything in the universe, and he's pushing against it at well over 150,000 MPH. Seems like blunt force to me, and the Speed Force protects him from that impact. So it protecting him from other blunt force makes sense to me, even if it doesn't to you.
Do you not see the contradiction here? On-Panel statements are all well and good, but feats trump statements. Like in God_Spawn's post above, where Gambit has stated that he can't charge organic matter, but he's actually charged it several times. Feats trump statements. Bane showed feats, which is what you're asking for. He "showed you some pages in a comic book." But now you're saying the feats and pages aren't good? That you don't want examples, you want statements? Do you not see the contradiction?
No I don't considering I was being sarcastic, but I understand your confusion. Actually feats don't trump statements, because feats can be taken out of context. I'm not the biggest gambit expert in the world but I know he has gained and lost the ability to effect organic matter. He has had the power taken away by Sinister. Before that I believe it was a mental block. With that said I had a mod lock my thread because people wanted to cry and "interpret" statements rather than present me on panel evidence. They go hand in hand.
Why not?
Because I posted a scan of Kid Flash being hurt by blunt trauma.
No I don't considering I was being sarcastic but I understand your confusion. Actually feats don't trump statements, because feats can be taken out of context. I'm not the biggest gambit expert in the world but I know he has gained and lost the ability to effect organic matter. He has had the power taken away by Sinister. Before that I believe it was a mental block. With that said I had a mod lock my thread because people wanted to cry and "interpret" statements rather than present me on panel evidence.
IF your entire post was sarcastic, does that mean that you don't have an effective response? The fact remains that you consistently ask for in-context feats. Bane gave you several feats, and also provided the context surrounding them. Do you question the legitimacy of the feats? If not, then why would you disagree with Flash's durability? If so, why do you question something that's been consistently demonstrated in a variety of situations and contexts?
Because I also posted a scan of Kid Flash being hurt by blunt truama
Sounds suspiciously like *gasp* cherry-picking to me. In my intermittent reading of the thread, I've seen six feats of Flash taking amounts of blunt trauma that would have killed or done serious damage to anyone with normal human durability. You apparently posted one feat of Kid Flash being hurt, (where, by the way? I didn't see it in the last five pages of discussion, and I don't remember you posting before that.), someone who's less adept with the Speed Force than Wally. I'm more inclined to go with the six than the one, surprisingly enough.
Do you have evidence that proves that this is anything other than conjecture? The only thing you have yet to show me is a scan that actually states the speed force increases durability. What you're saying doesn't add up. Flash increases his durability when he gains speed, but sometimes he doesn't need to move at all? It sounds like you're just looking at instances in which flash survived things he shouldn't have and then wrote a nice little story to go with it. Batman survived an attack from Superman, heat vision and all. Slade has shot, punched, and stabbed a Flash; managed to hurt them all. Two for one. Since Flash has been injured by significantly less than a black hole and Superman pounding evildoers your argument falls apart. Unless you want to cherry-pick. You're not a cherry-picker are you?
LOL, this is exactly what I said. You want a scan where it's explicitly stated that the Flash's durability increases in tandem with his speed, and I'll get to that. But first, what exactly have I said that doesn't make sense? Slade has only hurt Flashes moving at low mach speeds, and as per what I said Flash's durability increases in tandem with his speed. In Identity Crisis, Slade hurts Wally when he's moving slower than sound, judging from how several explosions go off in the time it takes Wally to reach him:
In Teen Titans #2, Slade hurts Bart Allen by first depowering him with a tranquilizer when Bart comes to a halt and then shooting him while he's unable to access his speed:
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So I'm not entirely sure what you find so impressive about Slade shooting a powerless teenager while he's standing still, but whatever.
A few issues after that, you can see Bart moving so fast that Slade can't even see him:
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And in the issue right afterwards, Bart slows down (Robin can actually see him move, whereas in the previous issue even Superboy and Wonder Girl couldn't perceive his movements) while fighting Slade, and while moving at that speed, he gets kicked away.
Bart's speed in this instance was also hampered by the fact that he had an artificial kneecap in place to replace the one Slade blew away, when he fights Dr. Light twenty issues later it's still a problem for him and even when he became the Flash, he was talking about how Slade's kneecapping forced him to slow down for a while.
In Deathstroke #13, Slade gets blitzed by a weaker version of Wally. Where was his I'm-just-that-fast speed there? Once he recovers, Slade pushes a cop on Wally and then makes a getaway. Once Wally turns the corner, Slade trips him up, but considering that Slade managed to run that far and turn around the corner before Flash got up from the power-staff cheap shot and arrived there, it's just another indication that Flash wasn't moving at any kind of really significant speed......unless, of course, you want to argue that Deathstroke can run and cover a distance faster than the Flash.
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None of your Deathstroke examples even begin to criticize any part of what I said. I said Flash's durability increases in tandem with his speed, you said "Deathstroke has hurt Flashes so that's wrong!", even though it's very easy to infer the Flash's speed from what happened in each instance: either they're moving at speeds that are pitiful in comparison to their full potential, or they're not even moving at all like Bart was. So in opposition of a statement relating Flash's durability with his speed at the time of the attack, why on Earth would any of your Deathstroke examples have any relevance?
Batman survived an attack from Superman because Wonder Woman showed up in the nick of time and pulled him off. And even so, he was injured so badly he almost died, and probably would have without Diana's purple ray. There's another instance where a groggy, weakened Superman punches Batman and shatters his ribs as a result, another instance where Batman punches a Kryptonite-weakened Superman and states that he can only punch him so many times before every bone in his hand shatters (and considering Flash has regularly punched Class 100 bricks and has done so thousands of times in a second while never so much as wincing, that should be ample proof that his durability holds up), and others where superpowered versions of Batman are thrashed to within an inch of their lives by Superman or one-shotted. In all of these cases, Batman may have survived the hits, but he was at the very least severely wounded and there were always extenuating circumstances behind his survival. You cannot even say that much for Flash. Titus punches him square in the face and he doesn't even get a nosebleed. Martian Manhunter hits Barry repeatedly and it doesn't put him down. Zoom punches Jay so hard he flies thousands of miles away (honestly, explain that one to me) and Jay only has a few bruises to show for it). Here's the kicker from one of those dozen instances I was talking about: Bart gets repeatedly hit by Darkseid's uncle Steppenwolf, even taking hits that send him flying the course of a football field (Batman can totally do that, right?).......
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........and Bart states explicitly that he can take that much punishment because of the momentum the Speed Force provides him.
Read that a couple of times, let it sink in. All good? Bart directly links his durability with the momentum that the Speed Force provides him. Momentum is directly related to a body's mass and its velocity. You know what the layman calls velocity? Speed, because the layman doesn't know that velocity is speed in a particular direction. Digression aside, could you possibly require any more proof that Flash's durability increases in tandem with his speed or are you just going to be irrational for the heck of it?
A dozen examples but not a dozen on panel statements from flash saying he has this power? I have just as many instances of the flash being injured by much less than what you're claiming he can take.
Oh snap, you got me there. Sure, there are a dozen instances of the Flash being hurt by much less. I'd even say hundreds, and I can provide them if you want. But none of them are relevant to the argument that Flash has superhuman durability that rises with his own speed. I believe I've already proven my point with the example above. Am I claiming that Flash can survive a black hole while moving at Mach 10? No, he'd get shredded. Can he survive a black hole while moving at the speed of light? Yes. And here's another example of him doing just that:
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If Flash was moving at the speed of light, Slade's sword would shatter upon contact with him. Probably Slade too just by being near him. I've said Flash has also taken hits while not moving at all and shrugged them off, and you pounced on that to go off on some nonsense about cherrypicking despite the fact that I stated it depends on the writer.
My method of debunking meant that people had to have actual feats, so I can see why you disliked it. The only idea I got was to create a thread in which nothing but facts would be allowed. I didn't post my ideas, I showed you all some pages in a comicbooks. I've been consistent in saying that any claims that are unsupported by actual evidence is wank. If that offends you, that must mean you only know how to wank. Good luck on that test
Whatever, man. I've already proven my point to a more than sufficient degree if I do say so myself, and I doubt there's anyone here who'd disagree with the notion that you're just an irrational troll. It takes more than that to offend me, lol. I've always surprised by the people who think their posts on a comic book site have the capacity to offend. Get over yourself. All you ever did was post some ideas and then try to shut down discussion from people who disagreed even though literally everyone other than you thought the discussion was fine. You can have the last word, I already know it will be of little worth. I'm done, I've posted the scan that shows I'm right, and your rants while endlessly amusing get old quick.
IF your entire post was sarcastic, does that mean that you don't have an effective response?
Did I say my entire post was sarcastic or did I say that statement was? I believe the scans I posted was an effective enough response don't you?
The fact remains that you consistently ask for in-context feats. Bane gave you several feats, and also provided the context surrounding them. Do you question the legitimacy of the feats? If not, then why would you disagree with Flash's durability? If so, why do you question something that's been consistently demonstrated in a variety of situations and contexts
"but do you have any concrete evidence of your claims? One user of the speed force saying they have this ability? How can you expect me to disregard the scans of Flash being injured by less than what you're claiming, when you don't have evidence he actually has the power to begin with?"
Sounds suspiciously like *gasp* cherry-picking to me.
You'll have to explain how that's cherry-picking. Quick while you're still fixated with me.
In my intermittent reading of the thread, I've seen six feats of Flash taking amounts of blunt trauma that would have killed or done serious damage to anyone with normal human durability. You apparently posted one feat of Kid Flash being hurt, (where, by the way? I didn't see it in the last five pages of discussion, and I don't remember you posting before that.), someone who's less adept with the Speed Force than Wally. I'm more inclined to go with the six than the one, surprisingly enough.
You've also seen 4 feats showing different Flash's being hurt like a normal men. If you wont knowledge my argument a conversation between us would be pointless.
I'm not the biggest gambit expert in the world but I know he has gained and lost the ability to effect organic matter. He has had the power taken away by Sinister.
I was typing up a nice big response when I saw Bane's new post above, including on-panel statements and proper contexts in all their radiant glory. So I decided it wasn't worth it. I genuinely hope you enjoy the rest of your time here on the Vine, and I apologize if you felt I was offensive or attacking in my previous posts.
@SlimJ87D: Both the feat presented as not as impressive as they make it sound.
1. Superboy Prime's retcon punch: It was revealed that before Superboy even punched through reality, the reality itself was already crumbling. The scan posted below is from Infinite Crisis, Issue 02, Page 18, third panel (so if anyone wants to check it out they are more than welcome).
1. He survived a guardian's explosion: this argument is undermined by 2 simple facts:
a. Prime was actually KOed by the blast
Green Lantern Volume 4, Issue 35 (pages 50-56)
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b. Hal Jordan, alongside Sinestro and Atrocitus did exactly the same thing. The difference being, they were neither Koed nor did they show any sign of real damage. And this was the most powerful guardian (Krona) who at the time was wielding all 7 emotional entity.
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hope this helps.
PS. sorry had to edit the OP 3 times, my scans kept disappearing. I think comicvine hates me =(. You will probably get 3 pms so.....
One thing I would point out is the distance Hal and Atrocitus were during the explosion, if you look at SBP he was point blank, but the real thing to compare is that there were guardians and other Superheroes not too far back from SBP's explosion who were also not hurt. They were not too far back either compared to Hal and Atrocitus scan.
It also looked like the guardains were using their power to contain the blast (they were certainly channeling something, maybe enhancing the blast?). Regardless of what they were doing, this was not done/needed for Karona's death.
Also, Karona's death didn't atomize his body but instead spawned the emotional entities (corps was still there), so it might have been a less destructive explosion, or at least a more controlled one as the entities might have started to form from the explosion they could have absorbed the brunt of the energy before it reached they bystanders (as they formed their bodies).
It could just be the art but Karona's death seemed to give of more light (which makes sense if he had seven color entities - white-ish/brighter light) then the whirlwind of destruction that SBP guardian did. Rather than a raw explosion, part of the effects might just have been the effect of the emergence of the entities, which makes sense when you consider Karona's body was intact. (Yes I realized the guardians shirt somehow survived SBP's explosion...I don't have all the answers...probably done for artistic reasons)
Remember one Guardian committed suicide with the intent of blowing up Superboy, he didn't explode by dying, he blew himself up by charging his energy, while Karona's 'explosion'/light-show was a result of his death. That too could have a major impact on the blast damage.
Basically there is a lot going on there and a lot of possibilities.
As for SBP being knocked out, there is also the consideration that Atorcitus and Hal were not atomized and moved atom by atom to another dimension.
One thing I would point out is the distance Hal and Atrocitus were during the explosion, if you look at SBP he was point blank, but the real thing to compare is that there were guardians and other Superheroes not too far back from SBP's explosion who were also not hurt. They were not too far back either compared to Hal and Atrocitus scan.
Certainly does not look like a huge distance between the two at least to me
It also looked like the guardains were using their power to contain the blast (they were certainly channeling something, maybe enhancing the blast?). Regardless of what they were doing, this was not done/needed for Karona's death.
Certainly doesnt look like they were trying to channel something into the blast. Contain it, perhaps, because there were human bystandards as the battle took place on earth.
The same wasnt needed in Krona's instance because there were no human bystandards.
Also, Karona's death didn't atomize his body but instead spawned the emotional entities (corps was still there), so it might have been a less destructive explosion, or at least a more controlled one as the entities might have started to form from the explosion they could have absorbed the brunt of the energy before it reached they bystanders (as they formed their bodies).
This mostly looks like a whole fan made assumption. Firstly the purpose of the post was to show those 2 feats, by themselves, do not potray Superboy Prime to be anywhere close to PC Superman level, like at all.
Also while Krona's body wasnt atomized there was a boom and this is what his body looks like.
Everything else you are pointing here is fan based assumption, and without a clear hard and fast proof to show that the magnitude of the two attacks were indeed different, the value of the aforementioned feats does wane off significantly.
One thing I would point out is the distance Hal and Atrocitus were during the explosion, if you look at SBP he was point blank, but the real thing to compare is that there were guardians and other Superheroes not too far back from SBP's explosion who were also not hurt. They were not too far back either compared to Hal and Atrocitus scan.
Certainly does not look like a huge distance between the two at least to me
If that is your example than that wasn't much of an explosion (which for the record, does not show atrocitus),
Certainly doesnt look like they were trying to channel something into the blast. Contain it, perhaps, because there were human bystandards as the battle took place on earth.
The same wasnt needed in Krona's instance because there were no human bystandards.
They were in the sky, and last time I checked Superman wasn't a human bystander nor were any of the people (or lanterns) next to him, and containing the blast would mean SBP faced more concentrated energy
This mostly looks like a whole fan made assumption. Firstly the purpose of the post was to show those 2 feats, by themselves, do not potray Superboy Prime to be anywhere close to PC Superman level, like at all.
That's fine, i just didn't get that from the actual post.
Also while Krona's body wasnt atomized there was a boom and this is what his body looks like.
Yeah, guns go "boom" too, they even leave a hole in you, but the other guardians Boom made giant circular whirlwind and left nothing of his body, less damage of the blower-uper indicates "to me" less damage, when I look at the other details I've outlined in my last post.
Everything else you are pointing here is fan based assumption, and without a clear hard and fast proof to show that the magnitude of the two attacks were indeed different, the value of the aforementioned feats does wane off significantly.
Fan based assumptions??? Last time I check the point of this thread was to allow us challenge others interpretations of debunk attempts, I'm not making anyassumptions, I'm showingalternate interpretations. So you look at 2 booms and say they are equal, but I try to point out the different circumstances, but I'm just making fan based assumptions?
Point was in was near the city, where you have human bystandards. And unlike GLs and Superman a small blast should be more than potent enough to kill them.
That's fine, i just didn't get that from the actual post.
Ok lets see.
The reason i posted to begin with is:
@SlimJ87D said:
One of my favorite things to debunk in the past.
Superboy-Prime has the same strength as Silver Age Superman so therefore all of Silver Age Superman's feats can be used for Superboy-Prime
This stems from one of my longest debate with two members, @NeonNemesis and @Dex_Starr
Now the argument is that Superboy-Prime was never retconned by the COIE Anti-Monitor and that he has retained all his powers since then. So many users in the past have tried to come on here and state ridiculous feats like SUperboy-Prime being on SIlver Age Superman's level and therefore he's 100 times stronger than Superman. This statement simply does not make sense. I bet you dozens of users can chime in on this, @Killemall and @CitizenBane just to name a few off the top of my head.
o_O People actually agrue that ^^^^^, i mean the whole magic invulnerability would have been a dead give away wouldnt it? Not to mention we have another Pre-Crisis Kryptonian running around in DcU who sure as hell doesnt look as powerful as PC Supergirl (Boobgirl, or was it powergirl, i get distracted at times). Also Pre-crisis generally refers to Bronze Age rather than Silver Age more often that not.
Then slim posts:
@SlimJ87D said:
@Killemall: Yes, and there are quite a bit of them. BUt they have disappeared. He had a cult following for awhile when he was popular here.
"prime= silver age
prime has strength feats that not even SA superman has and great durability feats"
That's one of the users that support Superboy-Prime being SA level. He was a big advocate on proving that Superboy-Prime was and more durable than Silver Age Superman due to his punches "altering" reality, survivng a Guardian explosion, etc.
And you are really telling me the intent wasnt clear?? O_o
Yeah, guns go "boom" too, they even leave a hole in you, but the other guardians Boom made giant circular wwhirlwind and left nothing of his body
I for one dont see how this pertains to out argument. It was the death of 2 guardians, both resulted in an explostion. Without an on panel proof there is nothing to actually show the magnitude of the two attack were Significant different.
Last time I check the point of this thread was to allow us challenge others interpretations of debunk attempts, I'm not making anyassumptions, I'm showingalternate interpretations.
I think you misunderstand what i am trying to say. I am neither angry, nor offended you posted an alternate assumption, nor am i saying you did anything wrong. What i am however saying is, given that there really isnt a much of an on panel evidence to show there is a huge difference between the two instances.
It kind of feels you though i was offended or angry, i am really not. We are discussing thats what the whole thread is about. I see no problem in that nor do i see anything in my post that would have lead you to believe i did. My point was regardless of how you interpret it, the fact that there is the presence of similar instance with GL does diminish the value of feat performed by Superboy Prime. Had there been no such instance the feat would have been regarded a lot higher than it would be now.
You are telling you you see that as a huge distance?
Again, he is not point blank or enveloped in the concentrated whirlwind that SBP was and that looks more like a light show than the clear whirlwind of destruction seen in the other Guardians death (yes there is some blast coming from it)
Point was in was near the city, where you have human bystandards. And unlike GLs and Superman a small blast should be more than potent enough to kill them.
Well hey if you look at the scan with Atrocitus, he was about the same distance from Hal then the buildings were from SBP, and none of the scans showed the explosions going past Hal, just the light given off, so if the guardians were that worried about the explosion reaching the buildings and doing significant damage, they only strengthen my argument.
Now the argument is that Superboy-Prime was never retconned by the COIE Anti-Monitor and that he has retained all his powers since then. So many users in the past have tried to come on here and state ridiculous feats like SUperboy-Prime being on SIlver Age Superman's level and therefore he's 100 times stronger than Superman. This statement simply does not make sense. I bet you dozens of users can chime in on this, @Killemall and @CitizenBane just to name a few off the top of my head.
o_O People actually agrue that ^^^^^, i mean the whole magic invulnerability would have been a dead give away wouldnt it? Not to mention we have another Pre-Crisis Kryptonian running around in DcU who sure as hell doesnt look as powerful as PC Supergirl (Boobgirl, or was it powergirl, i get distracted at times). Also Pre-crisis generally refers to Bronze Age rather than Silver Age more often that not.
Then slim posts:
@SlimJ87D said:
@Killemall: Yes, and there are quite a bit of them. BUt they have disappeared. He had a cult following for awhile when he was popular here.
"prime= silver age
prime has strength feats that not even SA superman has and great durability feats"
That's one of the users that support Superboy-Prime being SA level. He was a big advocate on proving that Superboy-Prime was and more durable than Silver Age Superman due to his punches "altering" reality, survivng a Guardian explosion, etc.
And you are really telling me the intent wasnt clear?? O_o
As I said, i was not clear in your post,that you had to go and quote an entire conversation proves my point!
I for one dont see how this pertains to out argument. It was the death of 2 guardians, both resulted in an explostion. Without an on panel proof there is nothing to actually show the magnitude of the two attack were Significant different.
I would say the effect of the explosion and circumstanced bare quite a bit or relevance to this argument, I read your statement as them both going boom meant something. I'm just clarifying that many weapons go boom without having the same damaging effects.
I think you misunderstand what i am trying to say. I am neither angry, nor offended you posted an alternate assumption, nor am i saying you did anything wrong. What i am however saying is, given that there really isnt a much of an on panel evidence to show there is a huge difference between the two instances.
It is half empty half full argument, if you're going to debunk Superboy's 'feat', you need solid proof. Just saying the both endured a Guardian's explosion is not only vague, but potentially misleading, if you over look certain details (like a point blank contain explosion vs an explosion where the person surviving was shown clearly outside the concentrated blast radius in 2 separate frames). I can just as easily turn around and say you can't clearly prove they are equal so you didn't debunk it...see how that works?
It kind of feels you though i was offended or angry, i am really not. We are discussing thats what the whole thread is about. I see no problem in that nor do i see anything in my post that would have lead you to believe i did. My point was regardless of how you interpret it, the fact that there is the presence of similar instance with GL does diminish the value of feat performed by Superboy Prime. Had there been no such instance the feat would have been regarded a lot higher than it would be now.
I'm just pointing out that I'm not making fan made assumptions, I'm looking at the events and making interpretations based on the variance of details.
Again, he is not point blank or enveloped in the concentrated whirlwind that SBP was and that looks more like a light show than the clear whirlwind of destruction seen in the other Guardians death (yes there is some blast coming from it)
I fail to see how those bolded statement makes a difference at all. Point was similar things have been endured by a character a lot less durable, which byitself does not warrent Superboy Prime being as durable as pre-crisis superman.
TO be honest, i for one have no clue what you are debating about, might i ask you to put it in simple terms?
How does me showing , since the guardian explosion has been faced by Hal Jordan certainly undermines the argument made in Superboy favor of him being as durable of Pre Crisis Superman?
Well hey if you look at the scan with Atrocitus, he was about the same distance from Hal then the buildings were from SBP, and none of the scans showed the explosions going past Hal, just the light given off, so if the guardians were that worried about the explosion reaching the buildings and doing significant damage, they only strengthen my argument.
None of the scan shows full explosion to being with. I have no idea how that shows a difference between two attacks, its not like the explosion in Superboy Prime case shows a big difference.
You made a clear fan assumption seeing guardian on the page of the explosion, i made another similar assumption saying the guardian was there to contain the explosion if need be.
The bolded part really doesnt actually, that was the first time guardians were dealing with an explosion of a guardian, maybe be they were putting in pre-caution, then seeing how the blast wasnt any impressive they decide not to worry about in the second instance.
The thing i am point at is , you are making a lot of assumption, sure everyone can make assumption, I can do too, the problem being as there is no on panel confirmation that two explosion were of different magnitude, so treating them as entire difference sounds a little off.
As I said, i was not clear in your post,that you had to go and quote an entire conversation proves my point!
When i have clearly but my post as a reply to slim's, and thats evident by the fact that the post starts with@slimi do not see what you are arguing about here like at all, sorry.
I would say the effect of the explosion and circumstanced bare quite a bit or relevance to this argument, I read your statement as them both going boom meant something. I'm just clarifying that many weapons go boom without having the same damaging effects.
There certainly isnt anything on panel that shows a difference between the two explosion, apart from few hypothesis you are making. Hypothesis are good, it helps explain your case, but like i said, give the fact that there is no on panel evidence to actually substantate your hypothesis, it undermines your argument, and serves the purpose of my reply , which simply was this those feats are not as impressive as they are often made out to be. You should know that was the core of my argument as its the first sentence.
Maybe weapons go boom, the difference between its 2 guardinas going boom, as oppose to a pistol and a nuke. Further undermined by the fact that Green Lantern source book clearly puts Krona as the most powerful guardian. I dont see hwo the analogy of many weapons go boom applies. Unless you can show me a clear on panel evidence to show the two explosion are different.
It is half empty half full argument, if you're going to debunk Superboy's 'feat', you need solid proof. Just saying the both endured a Guardian's explosion is not only vague, but potentially misleading, if you over look certain details (like a point blank contain explosion vs an explosion where the person surviving was shown clearly outside the concentrated blast radius in 2 separate frames). I can just as easily turn around and say you can't clearly prove they are equal so you didn't debunk it...see how that works?
Since you have made statement like this might i ask you to re-read my original post once again, with a little caution this time please. Let me re-quote my post and see if i can get you to agree with what i am saying.
@Killemall said:
@SlimJ87D: Both the feat presented as not as impressive as they make it sound.
1. Superboy Prime's retcon punch: It was revealed that before Superboy even punched through reality, the reality itself was already crumbling. The scan posted below is from Infinite Crisis, Issue 02, Page 18, third panel (so if anyone wants to check it out they are more than welcome).
1. He survived a guardian's explosion: this argument is undermined by 2 simple facts:
a. Prime was actually KOed by the blast
Green Lantern Volume 4, Issue 35 (pages 50-56)
b. Hal Jordan, alongside Sinestro and Atrocitus did exactly the same thing. The difference being, they were neither Koed nor did they show any sign of real damage. And this was the most powerful guardian (Krona) who at the time was wielding all 7 emotional entity.
hope this helps.
The thing i am trying to say is, the core of my post was:
1. The two instances presented are NOT as impressive as they make it sound. Not saying its not impressive at all, or that the feat itself is invalid. Furthermore, this was post in relation to debunking some entirely different that what you see to be getting at, and the thing i am trying to debunk is Superboy Prime is not more durable than SA Superman and these feat which as Slim mentioned as used to prove his superiorit to SA Superman, which i am debunking. In simple words, these 2 feats do not show Superboy Prime as either stronger or more durable than SA Superman.
2. The only thing i have said in relation to GL surviving Krona is that it undermines the argument made. Not totally makes it invalid, doesn't not take away that surviving a guardian is a good feat by Prime, something i have used it to support his durability in the past, but the existence of Hal Jordan does reduce the weight you would have given to this particular feat, had there been no such instance.
Also you are trying to make a big deal out of a small difference between the distance between the Guardian's explosion, which certainly doesnt look more bigger than say a two feet radius. The point being, if the explosion is big enough warrant a comparison with Pre Crisis Superman, a small distance like that shouldnt make a huge difference between the explosion. You can be one feet away from a nuke, or 10 feats, you will still be obliterated wouldnt you agree?
I fail to see how those bolded statement makes a difference at all. Point was similar things have been endured by a character a lot less durable, which byitself does not warrent Superboy Prime being as durable as pre-crisis superman.
TO be honest, i for one have no clue what you are debating about, might i ask you to put it in simple terms?
How does me showing , since the guardian explosion has been faced by Hal Jordan certainly undermines the argument made in Superboy favor of him being as durable of Pre Crisis Superman?
The guardian actually grabbed SBP's arm to keep him within, what is clearly a definable explosion, that in itself is very telling that he took the brunt of the explosion as it appears the guardians were containing keeping the intensity focused on him. This is not an assumption: The closer you are to the blast of an explosion, the more intense the forces are, as you move away for pressure lessons as the force disperses across a larger volume. You drop a grenade, it kills one but not the other, does that mean one is more durable? It doesn't if one was next to it and the other was 10 feet away and only got blown a few feet(if they get blown away at all).
Your scans just show the light coming from the guardian (which could also be interpreted as the emergence of the entities), and while they show some force blast around Hal, they are not shown as intense as it was shown in the SBP scan. And one clear measurable damage comparison (like the bodies) are not as high, it could be attributed to the purposeful detonation, but then Krona didn't exactly send anyone to another dimension. The scan seriously looks like little more happened than entities busting from Krona, the scan before them shows their coloring emerging from his back and the later shows the entities bleed out behind him.
So in case I'm not clear on what I'm debating, I don't think the scans you've posted clearly shows that Hal withstood sufficient damage from Krona's "explosion" to debunk or diminish SBP feat of surviving it.
None of the scan shows full explosion to being with. I have no idea how that shows a difference between two attacks, its not like the explosion in Superboy Prime case shows a big difference.
You made a clear fan assumption seeing guardian on the page of the explosion, i made another similar assumption saying the guardian was there to contain the explosion if need be.
The bolded part really doesnt actually, that was the first time guardians were dealing with an explosion of a guardian, maybe be they were putting in pre-caution, then seeing how the blast wasnt any impressive they decide not to worry about in the second instance.
The thing i am point at is , you are making a lot of assumption, sure everyone can make assumption, I can do too, the problem being as there is no on panel confirmation that two explosion were of different magnitude, so treating them as entire difference sounds a little off.
Okay If 'm making Fan assumptions, your making hater assumptions, are we cool guys now????
Except I'm not he one trying to debunk SBPs feat, I'm pointing out there are too many variables to just assume they under went the same thing including the on panel effects. What in panel confirmation are you expecting to confirm the magnitude of the blasts? Someone comparing them on a chart? Also "no on panel confirmation that two explosion were of different magnitude" does not mean they are equal either.
How do you know that the guardians never dealt with and exploding guardian before? (Hater assumption!) And as I've pointed out, there is a difference in intensity as you move further away from a blast. And the effects of that blast seemed more one directional.
When i have clearly but my post as a reply to slim's, and thats evident by the fact that the post starts with@slimi do not see what you are arguing about here like at all, sorry.
A lot of people reply to the OP without there being a conversation. And I'm not arguing I merely pointed out what happened; I didn't get the context you mentioned from the post I quoted, you took it upon yourself to quote the whole conversation, which did prove my point. I'm not trying to point fingers, that's just how it happened. But I will point out this is a clear example of what I'm telling you about "open to interpretation".
There certainly isnt anything on panel that shows a difference between the two explosion, apart from few hypothesis you are making. Hypothesis are good, it helps explain your case, but like i said, give the fact that there is no on panel evidence to actually substantate your hypothesis, it undermines your argument, and serves the purpose of my reply , which simply was this those feats are not as impressive as they are often made out to be. You should know that was the core of my argument as its the first sentence.
Maybe weapons go boom, the difference between its 2 guardinas going boom, as oppose to a pistol and a nuke. Further undermined by the fact that Green Lantern source book clearly puts Krona as the most powerful guardian. I dont see hwo the analogy of many weapons go boom applies. Unless you can show me a clear on panel evidence to show the two explosion are different.
Krona being more powerful does not mean he creates a bigger explosion. My "hypothesis" on why the explosions could differ is that one was prepared, planned, and executed purposely while Krona's was not. Basically Krona's could have "bleed out" while the other forced a massive hemorrhage. You can't simply say they both blew up so the feats are equal, you need to prove your case, similar to 2 people moving 2 different planets.
Since you have made statement like this might i ask you to re-read my original post once again, with a little caution this time please. Let me re-quote my post and see if i can get you to agree with what i am saying.
I've seen your points, and responded on why I didn't agree with them, the only think that was missing in this response was pre-crises context.
One thing I would point out is the distance Hal and Atrocitus were during the explosion, if you look at SBP he was point blank, but the real thing to compare is that there were guardians and other Superheroes not too far back from SBP's explosion who were also not hurt. They were not too far back either compared to Hal and Atrocitus scan.
It also looked like the guardains were using their power to contain the blast (they were certainly channeling something, maybe enhancing the blast?). Regardless of what they were doing, this was not done/needed for Karona's death.
Also, Karona's death didn't atomize his body but instead spawned the emotional entities (corps was still there), so it might have been a less destructive explosion, or at least a more controlled one as the entities might have started to form from the explosion they could have absorbed the brunt of the energy before it reached they bystanders (as they formed their bodies).
It could just be the art but Karona's death seemed to give of more light (which makes sense if he had seven color entities - white-ish/brighter light) then the whirlwind of destruction that SBP guardian did. Rather than a raw explosion, part of the effects might just have been the effect of the emergence of the entities, which makes sense when you consider Karona's body was intact. (Yes I realized the guardians shirt somehow survived SBP's explosion...I don't have all the answers...probably done for artistic reasons)
Remember one Guardian committed suicide with the intent of blowing up Superboy, he didn't explode by dying, he blew himself up by charging his energy, while Karona's 'explosion'/light-show was a result of his death. That too could have a major impact on the blast damage.
Basically there is a lot going on there and a lot of possibilities.
As for SBP being knocked out, there is also the consideration that Atorcitus and Hal were not atomized and moved atom by atom to another dimension.
The two instances presented are NOT as impressive as they make it sound. Not saying its not impressive at all, or that the feat itself is invalid. Furthermore, this was post in relation to debunking some entirely different that what you see to be getting at, and the thing i am trying to debunk is Superboy Prime is not more durable than SA Superman and these feat which as Slim mentioned as used to prove his superiorit to SA Superman, which i am debunking. In simple words, these 2 feats do not show Superboy Prime as either stronger or more durable than SA Superman.
That's fine, I missed this context, I wouldn't have needed the scans to agree with this
2. The only thing i have said in relation to GL surviving Krona is that it undermines the argument made. Not totally makes it invalid, doesn't not take away that surviving a guardian is a good feat by Prime, something i have used it to support his durability in the past, but the existence of Hal Jordan does reduce the weight you would have given to this particular feat, had there been no such instance.
I don't agree, for reasons stated, you also need to consider that it was more than the blast Prime enured, he moved "Atom by atom" to another dimension (why would the guardians mention it like that if it were not to be an ordeal?) and he was actually infused with their power (which in itself might not be a feat other than oan/cosmic energy resistance/affinity or a feat for oan energy).
Also you are trying to make a big deal out of a small difference between the distance between the Guardian's explosion, which certainly doesnt look more bigger than say a two feet radius. The point being, if the explosion is big enough warrant a comparison with Pre Crisis Superman, a small distance like that shouldnt make a huge difference between the explosion. You can be one feet away from a nuke, or 10 feats, you will still be obliterated wouldnt you agree?
I don't consider them small, "the devil is in the details". Being in a contained explosion vs a non-contained one is worth exploring as well as distance from the explosion. Looking at the impacts of a guardian forcefully detonation themself vs one who seems to have bleed out, is also not subtle. And the effects of the explosion in the scan where it goes boom would certainly need to be considered when trying to estimate damage.
@drgnx: Look while i could try and counter most of what you are saying, this is simply getting ugly and i do not know why. You have labelled me as a hater, while i have never hated Superboy Prime, in fact i was among few who debate in Prime favour in Prime vs Thor, Captain Marvel and Black Adam and you are frankly trying to make it sound personal despite my attempt to not make it sound so.
One last attempt to get my point across, if you disagree fine but i am NOT going to reply to you after this because i simply see no reason to argue, i was trying to get my point across and you seem to be trying to fight, which i do not like.
The point was, what Hal Jordan did isnt exactly same as what Superboy Prime did, but was similar to the point the feat from Superboy Prime seems less impressive.
If i was so hard on debunking the feat, wouldnt i simply have asked you to show:A proof that the blast is anything substantial, or a shed of evidence to show a guardian explosion ever taking out a class 50 person let alone a superman level being?
No i did not all i simply did was to show while these 2 instances are at times show to compare Prime's durability to SA Superman, its simply not true, since Hal has tanked similar explosion. Lets go with the assumption that, in magnitude, due to the distance of explosion, the explosion faced by Prime was 100 times more potent than what Green Lantern face, seemed like a fair number? That still doesnt make him 100 times more durable than a normal GL (as one was KOed the other wasnt), making it leagues and bound below what SA Superman is capable of (example Supergirl tanking a universal blast from Blackstarr, or Superman being punched so hard by Bizzaro he went all the way to past without being knocked out).
Also if i may, dont do it right away, give this link a bookmark, and read it like a week after, i think you will see more clearly what i am trying to say. Perhaps you will not agree, which is fair enough, perhaps you will agree which is awesome but as a request please do so once.
Lastly if you agree to what i am saying, as evident by this line.
That's fine, I missed this context, I wouldn't have needed the scans to agree with this
I dont see why you would go so far to call me a hater =( and i for one, since we have debated alongside for quite a number of time now, including various thread, am very disappointed to hear that from you, because i though we were friends (as friends can be in comicvine).
@Killemall: Its fine, I'll drop it since I missed the initial context of your post (regarding primes strength vs PC superman even if we disagree with your 'proof'), I don't need a week to reanalyze your argument, I know what you saying, agree with the main point (regarding primes strength vs PC superman), but do not agree with your 'proof'.
But when I said
Okay If 'm making Fan assumptions, your making hater assumptions, are we cool guys now????
It was a joke. Basically, if you don't like hater reference (which I only used jokingly), then would it not be fair to assume I didn't like the "fan" reference from "Fan assumptions" (which I think can be interpreted as a substitute for fanboy in this context)? I don't think you meant it that way bluntly, nor did I take offense, which is why I tried to make a subtle joke about it. But since explaining to you that I wasn't just making "fan assumptions" didn't work, I tried another approach. That was all I was trying to convey when I made that remark. It was not meant to be an offensive bite as much as a retaliatory nip. But this is a perfect example of "those who live in glass houses". So you should consider this when you talk about being disappointed in 'my' conduct. It is condescending and hypocritical.
@god_spawn: Thanks man. I will update the OP once we get a few more in again.
About the Captain America and Gambit part. I don't know how the writer could have F'ed it up, but I think we could either accept it as CIS or the conversation could have went like this.
Captain America not knowing much about Gambit's recent history remarks"I thought you couldn't charge organics"
Gambit thinking in his mind *Hey dumb @$$, even if that were true, it's not like this isn't organic."
You want a scan where it's explicitly stated that the Flash's durability increases in tandem with his speed, and I'll get to that.
Well I'm going to get to it now because it's the only thing that really matters.
Any object with Momentum is going to be hard to stop. The Flash was using momentum to avoid being knocked "the length of a football fields" when hit by Steppenwolf. That's supported by
- He's referencing being backhanded.
I'd like to point out you're saying Flash can take a hit from Titus without getting hurt but reference this fight and neglect to mention his injuries.
- He's still standing because of he speed up his metabolism to heal.
You still haven't posted any concrete evidence of Flash increasing his durability. Now I can get on to the filler.
But first, what exactly have I said that doesn't make sense? Slade has only hurt Flashes moving at low mach speeds
I haven't insinuated, suggested or implied that Slade Wilson hit a Flasher who was going as fast as they possibly could. So you shouldn't have a problem with me skipping over this part of your post.
In Teen Titans #2, Slade hurts Bart Allen by first depowering him with a tranquilizer when Bart comes to a halt and then shooting him while he's unable to access his speed:
But you also claimed that Flash had this ability even when he was not moving. The tranquilizer didn't depower Bart. If it did Slade wouldn't have needed to worry about Bart's metabolism breaking down the tranquilizer too quickly. Jay also made this statement.
In Deathstroke #13, Slade
Stunned and possibly knocked out the flash which is the only thing relevant to the point I was making.
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None of your Deathstroke examples even begin to criticize any part of what I said.
I believe you said the speed force protects the flash from serious damage. Slade has stabbed, shot, and punched a Flash; they were all hurt. So this contradicts your claims. It's up to you if it's a criticism.
I said Flash's durability increases in tandem with his speed,
You also said he doesn't need to move at all.
you said "Deathstroke has hurt Flashes so that's wrong!",
I showed you scans of him stabbing shooting, and beating a Flash. They were all hurt in some way. Please elaborate
Batman survived an attack from Superman because Wonder Woman showed up in the nick of time and pulled him off.
Implying it's reasonable to believe Batman should survive an attack from an Unrestrained Superman for any amount of time. He shouldn't have had a torso after being hit with heat vision. He shouldn't have had a head after Superman got a hold of it.
Zoom punches Jay so hard he flies thousands of miles away
That's your interpretation.
Flash has regularly punched Class 100 bricks and has done so thousands of times in a second
He was hurt by Slade Wilson.
Titus punches him square in the face and he doesn't even get a nosebleed.
Bart was hit through a brick wall and broke 2 ribs.
Bart gets repeatedly hit by Darkseid's uncle Steppenwolf, even taking hits that send him flying the course of a football field (Batman can totally do that, right?).......
He can if he took blows from Superman. Steppenwolf couldn't break a simple Green lantern construct. Superman would have crushed it. If Superman hit someone full force they would trvael the length of China, not a football field. Which would suggest Stepphenwolf isn't all that powerful, but you would like me to assume he is based on who he's related to. Wasn't Steppenwolf killed by Clock King?
Read that a couple of times, let it sink in. All good?
Bart directly links his durability with the momentum that the Speed Force provides him.
Read that a couple of times, let it sink in. " Momentum is directly related to a body's mass and its velocity.layman calls velocity? Speed, because the layman doesn't know that velocity is speed in a particular direction.
Take out all the filler and this is what you're left with. The formula for momentum. I would like for you to explain how the formula for momentum increases the flash's durability? Mass rhymes with Democrat. So democrats must be Length x width. How does momentum correlate with increasing durability? It should be noted how the speed force protects its users from the effects of speed. Flash was thrown about like a frail dying African child. He then used the seed force to increase his momentum so he wouldn't be so easily tossed around. Doesn't that make more sense to you?
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Here Flash is stripped of the Speed force and crashes into the ground going over 350 miles an hour. Moments later he gets up and fights off a group of villains How are you going to pin that on the speed force?
Where is the connection between momentum and your proposed increase in Flash's durability? It would appear to be missing. Can you find it for me please?
Digression aside, could you possibly require any more proof that Flash's durability increases in tandem with his speed or are you just going to be irrational for the heck of it?
I require proof because you haven't provided any. I'm not being irrational, quite the opposite. I gave you evidence showing Flash being hurt by Slade Wilson. I've shown the connection between the momentum comment and Wolfie's backhand. Your claims are all over the place. Flash needs to speed up to be super durable but ometimes he doesnt at all. You keep denying Slade ever hurt flash despite me showing you multiple instances in which he has. And i'm still waiting for you to explain how you established a connection to an increase in durability using the equation no connection between momentum and a proposed increase in durability. You only made a connection between momentum and speed. I'll know how rational you are by responding to my evidence with something other than insults.
Oh snap, you got me there. Sure, there are a dozen instances of the Flash being hurt by much less. I'd even say hundreds, and I can provide them if you want. But none of them are relevant to the argument that Flash has superhuman durability that rises with his own speed. I believe I've already proven my point with the example above.
They're relevant because they prove the speed force has consistently shown to no increase his durability. You haven't proven your point, so that increases their relevancy.
Am I claiming that Flash can survive a black hole while moving at Mach 10? No, he'd get shredded. Can he survive a black hole while moving at the speed of light? Yes. And here's another example of him doing just that:
Did you not see the regular people also inside the "blackhole" with Flash? Was there durability increased by the speed force as well?
I was typing up a nice big response when I saw Bane's new post above, including on-panel statements and proper contexts in all their radiant glory. So I decided it wasn't worth it. I genuinely hope you enjoy the rest of your time here on the Vine, and I apologize if you felt I was offensive or attacking in my previous posts.
You shouldn't let another persons opinion make you think what you have to say isn't worth saying. Personally Bane's post left me in want. And I genuinely appreciate the warm welcome of fellow comic book Virtuoso. No hurt feelings congressman, we're all big boys. I apologize if I seemed cross.
Something I want to try an analyze and debunk is the following.
Killemall and I have had a discussion on what defines a multiverse. But from official definition, a multiverse consists of many universes that are very similar and loosely based on each other.
In the Chaos War story line, I believe this has to be a typo because honestly throughout the story we never EVER see the Chaos King actually consume other Multiverses like the Ultimate universe, etc. So what's up with this? We only see him attacking and affecting the 616 universe. Is that not strange? How does everyone else feel about this? Or did I miss the scene where he invades another Universe?
Why has no one banned Blind_and_full_of_fail yet?? Comicvine should allows flagging people who try to act smart and fail miserably =)
I don't get all the little pictures he posts trying to look cool...is it because i'm old? I mean, he actually takes the time to post pictures to increase his epenis? is that it? O_o
Why has no one banned Blind_and_full_of_fail yet?? Comicvine should allows flagging people who try to act smart and fail miserably =)
I don't get all the little pictures he posts trying to look cool...is it because i'm old? I mean, he actually takes the time to post pictures to increase his epenis? is that it? O_o
It's for you. Because you like to be all up on my E-nuts.
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