#151 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby:

I agree...that whole "Mile a minute" run thing is pretty impressive...and Batman doesn't have any feats where he specifically says "I can run "X"mph" and then is shown to do just that. My point is more that Batman also has feats that would place him beyond the abilities of modern day humans without any kind of physical enhancements whatsoever. I would not say "Batman and Captain America are exactly the Same". All I have been saying is that a statement from one writer of Captain America is not usable as evidence any more than an entry on the Captain America Wiki. We've all seen what happens when someone tries to bring up Wikis as evidence...they get laughed at, insulted, or just completely ignored.

I disagree. Ed Burbaker wrote cap for 8 years and he has written a good chunk of caps modern stuff if I'm not mistaken. It shows how has been written to a higher standard then your average peak human has in recent showings.

Shawnbaby, One thing I need to point out is that evolution is generally defined by differences not similarities. There are many things humans seem to replicate through some "PIS" training or side effects, but look for things Captain can do that non of these other non-enhanced peak humans can do despite their training.

#152 Edited by Shawnbaby (10789 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: You are nitpicking again. That was posted by Ed Brubaker at CBR because people were saying Batman and Captain America were physically equal. All Ed Brubaker wanted to do was clear the air on a few things.

1. Everyone says that Captain America is just an Olympic Athlete

2. The SSS only made him a very physically fit human.

3. Captain America cannot perform no greater than current olympic athletes.

Again, all Ed Brubaker wanted to express was that Captain America is a enhanced human, he is physically stronger than Batman, Daredevil and Punisher regardless of what feats they produce, Captain America will always be stronger. He furthers this by saying why else would dozens of people try and replicate a SSS for 50 years if it just gave them a peak human. It was not his goal or purpose to point out anything about human evolution, which again could be left to interpretation as to what he meant.

"If the next Writer comes along with the understanding that Captain America can only perform at Olympic Levels...that will be the new paradigm."

Yes, and that is why Ed Brubaker referenced two other writers on the top of his head that showed him outperforming others that could be considered olympic athletes on panel.

"Daredevil is also enhanced...but not physically...Batman has no enhancements at all and yet they have both been seen performing feats on an equivalent level to Cap"

Besides the scan of DD sprinting and Captain America outsprinting him, I have never seen Batman nor have I seen DD sprint and run at 60 MPH for 5 minutes.

He's done it on another instance where he was being chased by giant mechanical birds (don't ask, silly story) and they were said to run at 60 MPH+.

Where has DD or Batman survived a bullet to the head?

Yes, DD and Batman have done impossible feats for most humans to do, but Brubakers point again is that Steve is physically above them. Plain and simple.

So, We disregard any and all feats that put Daredevil and Batman at the same level as Captain America simply because Ed Brubaker says Cap is physically superior to both of them? Feats speak louder than words to me. Let me show you what I mean. Here are some scans showing each of them dealing with Bullets:

Now, And I give this to you in the "Cap is Enhanced" Column...Cap says he can see Faster than Bullets. But the others have no more trouble dealing with them then he does. I would say of these 3 feats...Matt has the most impressive display by not only being able to deflect the bullet with nothing but his Billy Club...but by perfectly redirecting it back between the eyes of the guy who shot it.

Now, I don't want to give the impression that I'm in the "Cap is only Peak Human" Category...I'm just really against this idea that "because Brubaker said so" is any kind of admissible evidence. I've stated multiple times that I believe Cap is enhanced. My "Overclocked" Theory is basically that Cap is a Comic Book Peak Human (which is already leagues beyond "Olympic Level" Athletes) "Tuned up" to the optimal level. His Dials go all the way up to 11. All I've been trying to get across this entire time is If you want to prove that Cap is beyond Peak Human...use feats...not a quote from a writer.

#153 Edited by Shawnbaby (10789 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby:

I agree...that whole "Mile a minute" run thing is pretty impressive...and Batman doesn't have any feats where he specifically says "I can run "X"mph" and then is shown to do just that. My point is more that Batman also has feats that would place him beyond the abilities of modern day humans without any kind of physical enhancements whatsoever. I would not say "Batman and Captain America are exactly the Same". All I have been saying is that a statement from one writer of Captain America is not usable as evidence any more than an entry on the Captain America Wiki. We've all seen what happens when someone tries to bring up Wikis as evidence...they get laughed at, insulted, or just completely ignored.

I disagree. Ed Burbaker wrote cap for 8 years and he has written a good chunk of caps modern stuff if I'm not mistaken. It shows how has been written to a higher standard then your average peak human has in recent showings.

Shawnbaby, One thing I need to point out is that evolution is generally defined by differences not similarities. There are many things humans seem to replicate through some "PIS" training or side effects, but look for things Captain can do that non of these other non-enhanced peak humans can do despite their training.

Differences?...like the fact that Spider-Man can crawl on walls and sense danger, Daredevil can feel a laser sight on his forehead and identify a person from 20 feet away by the sound of their heart beat, and Susan Richards can turn invisible and create force-fields? Cap can't do any of those things...yet all of them are also "enhanced humans". Evolution has nothing to do with any of them. All of their powers come from an outside influence, such as a bite from a radioactive Spider, exposure to radioactive chemicals, Cosmic Storms... or a Super Soldier Serum and exposure to Vita Rays.

#154 Posted by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

"So, We disregard any and all feats that put Daredevil and Batman at the same level as Captain America simply because Ed Brubaker says Cap is physically superior to both of them?"

Who else are we suppose to believe? (Yes, I'm waiting on your response to respond to it).

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#155 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

@drgnx said:

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby:

I agree...that whole "Mile a minute" run thing is pretty impressive...and Batman doesn't have any feats where he specifically says "I can run "X"mph" and then is shown to do just that. My point is more that Batman also has feats that would place him beyond the abilities of modern day humans without any kind of physical enhancements whatsoever. I would not say "Batman and Captain America are exactly the Same". All I have been saying is that a statement from one writer of Captain America is not usable as evidence any more than an entry on the Captain America Wiki. We've all seen what happens when someone tries to bring up Wikis as evidence...they get laughed at, insulted, or just completely ignored.

I disagree. Ed Burbaker wrote cap for 8 years and he has written a good chunk of caps modern stuff if I'm not mistaken. It shows how has been written to a higher standard then your average peak human has in recent showings.

Shawnbaby, One thing I need to point out is that evolution is generally defined by differences not similarities. There are many things humans seem to replicate through some "PIS" training or side effects, but look for things Captain can do that non of these other non-enhanced peak humans can do despite their training.

Differences?...like the fact that Spider-Man can crawl on walls and sense danger, Daredevil can feel a laser sight on his forehead and identify a person from 20 feet away by the sound of their heart beat, and Susan Richards can turn invisible and create force-fields? Cap can't do any of those things...yet all of them are also "enhanced humans". Evolution has nothing to do with any of them. All of their powers come from an outside influence, such as a bite from a radioactive Spider, exposure to radioactive chemicals, Cosmic Storms... or a Super Soldier Serum and exposure to Vita Rays.

I'm talking about Captain America and non-mutated humans. All of those guys you brought up are genetically mutated even if it was not through natural evolution, they are clearly mutants, with no indication of being related to normal human evolution. Also, as we have discussed, there are different branches of evolution possible and the same applies to mutations, so bringing them up serves no purpose for your argument as they are clearly genetically enhanced as you yourself pointed out. Since they were mutated in different way, they were enhanced in different way, and that is why Cap A can't do their feats, but what is your line of reasoning here with this point?

You used Batman as your example of a peak human (specifically a non enhanced one) that has replicated some of Cap A's feats and that is who I'd want you to compare the differences between Captain America to.

You said

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

You responded to

Huh. So Cap is the highest possible point of human evolution, without being a Mutant?

With

Which would mean he is not the highest possible point of human evolution.

This has been you're main argument so far

  1. You discredit comic book sources that indicate C.A. is a more evolved form of human, because it is mentioned once
  2. Then you try to argue that the X gene is what Mankind are supposed to evolve into, until I pointed out that it is possible for mankind to evolve into multiple branches, like any other species
  3. Then you're trying to argue that other humans can replicate some of C.A feats, which means little, hence why I said look at what they (peak humans can't do) compared to C.A.
  4. Now you're trying to state that other mutations can do other things, that Cap A. can't do, which has nothing to do with peak humans, and also has nothing to do with the Captains experiments (different conditions, not to mention his was intended while the ones you mentioned were all accidents)

Here is what you're not addressing, has Captain A ever been refereed to anything other than human (peak/evolved/otherwise)? Because if Cap A has never been refereed to as a mutant, but as a peak human, but can do things no other human can do, then he is obviously more evolved or enhanced beyond Olympic levels. And on that note; you can't say that he as only been refereed to an evolved (or beyond Olympic) human once and discredit that statement, but then turn around and classify him as a mutant unless he been refereed to as one in the comics or officially several times.

Here was your first post

I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

You have gone from arguing if Cap America was the top of human evolution to arguing if he is even part of natural/intended evolution just for the sake of arguing...So he is an overclocked human above peak, not really a mutant (spiderman, x-men, Fantastic four), still human, but yet not more evolved ... srsly?

#156 Posted by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

Ed Brubaker is credited for writing such super heroes such as Batman, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Catwoman and Iron Fist.

Ed Brubaker

Preceded by
Larry Hama
Batman writer
2000–2002
Succeeded by
Jeph Loeb
Preceded by
John Francis Moore
Catwoman writer
2002–2005
Succeeded by
Will Pfeifer
Preceded by
Greg Rucka
Detective Comics writer
2003–2004
Succeeded by
Andersen Gabrych
Preceded by
Robbie Morrison
The Authority writer
2004–2005
Succeeded by
Grant Morrison
Preceded by
Robert Kirkman
Captain America writer
2005–2012
Succeeded by
Rick Remender
Preceded by
Brian Michael Bendis
Daredevil writer
2006–2009
(with Greg Rucka in 2008)
Succeeded by
Andy Diggle
Preceded by
Chris Claremont
Uncanny X-Men writer
2006–2008
(with Matt Fraction in 2008)
Succeeded by
Matt Fraction

I trust Ed Brubaker, he is a very creditable writer. You can tell the man does his research, he does it and he does it well. He remembers specific issues in the past that inspired him to write the characters he does. You can tell he doesn't "disregard" what other writers have done like Loeb and Bendis.

He even referenced 2 scans on the reason why he chose to have Captain America be able to run 60 MPH. It's because he's done it in the past, and because he completely outran Daredevil and Punisher, two totally different writers doing a direct comparison with CA, DD and Punisher. So it's not just Brubaker that displayed this , . Ed Brubaker did his research here and he did it well. He doesn't just write characters. He wrote Batman for years, he wrote Daredevil for years, he wrote Catwoman for years. I think he would know how to explain what these characters can and can do to us.

So you like feats, okay. Here's from my debate with Dex_Starr on Batman and Captain America comparison.

Just a little bit more to share with you and going a little off topic, he is definitely enhanced human, more than just the peak of man. Behold the ridiculous O_O

Ed Brubaker:

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/vie...pl=060330214926

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."

"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER. He's not superman, but clearly, he's been shown to be much faster and stronger than a well-trained athlete, many many times. One of everyone's favorite Cap appearances seems to be DD: Born Again, where he's shown running to fast that he's a breeze."

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/vie...q=ed%20brubaker

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

So here Shawnbaby, he explains that it's just a evolutionary next step, exactly what my post meant. It's just a step of many possibly steps.

Ripping chains

Throws a 100 to 150 lb steel concrete composite 20 to 30 feet high knocking the shooters out of the building.

Jumping up 2 stories:

Extreme acrobatics, this one he uses acrobatics to lose a special ops scout team and then uses gymnastic pull bar methods to leap 10 to 12 stories high which is completely ridiculous as you can see the water basin on the roof he is heading towards and he lands right next to it in front of the team:

Lol, have you seen this one? Does a front flip with about 100 lbs of ice on his legs and hits iceman with it then beats up beast:

I don't think I need to convince you. I think you need to convince us on why we shouldn't believe Captain America is enhanced human. To everyone else, Happy Thanksgiving. I hope you enjoyed this long elaborate post.

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#157 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Nowhere in the Ultimate Comics was it said what Cap's Shield is made from. Hank Pym merely Commented he "made a Shield and everything" for Cap. Never was it said anywhere it was Adamantium or any other Comic in the Ultimate Verse I have read.

#158 Posted by Vengance101 (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

who wants to debunk the Death Stroke v.s JL battle?

#159 Posted by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Didn't you stop reading after Ultimates 2 though? Somewhere it was revealed maybe even after. I'll look it up for you when I get a chance.

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#160 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Please do. Also you said Valkyrie cut it with her Magic Sword? Magic >>> Adamantium either way. Thors Hammer screwed up 616 Caps Shield and its more unbreakable than Adamantium.

My point stands either way. :)

I still like to see the actual proof of Caps Shield is Adamantium if ya can.

Also I have stop Reading after Ultimantum.

#161 Posted by beatboks1 (7236 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@SlimJ87D: Oh cheers thanks =)

Contrary to what i have seen people state, Captain Marvel can and has been de-powered by normal lightning.

@beatboks1: Since you are out reigning JSA expert, could you confirm if there are any instances that contradicts the above? Many thanks in advance.

I've never seen it occur with anything other than magic lightning, but I can't think of anything that precludes it.

@Killemall said:

@Jayfournines: I dont think there was anything unusual during Final Crisis and the being that was the cause of the lighting and other horrible weather during that time was Sun Eater who should have no magical connection, it should be normal lightning.

Also i am missing the scan, but there is one more instance like this during Eclipso Rising.

Yeah Sun eater has no magical background. he was created as a "cosmic cleaner" of sorts to destroy evil civilizations by the Multan race the Controllers ( brother race of the Guardians). LIke all the Multan races they have a loathing and mistrust of magic.

The one with Eclipso though is a little more skeptical, he's about as magic as you get with his soul based powers. It wasn't when he had possession of Superman was it and he was trying to rattle Cap to obtain his mystical body? If so that was billy calling the lightning to ensure he could not get Cap's power.@SlimJ87D said:

@god_spawn: I meant if there are specific URLs that will take you to a post. Like lets say the 25th post in this thread. Is there anyway I can URL to that specific post?

I think the best you can do is to the page, sorry

#162 Posted by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@SlimJ87D: Please do. Also you said Valkyrie cut it with her Magic Sword? Magic >>> Adamantium either way. Thors Hammer screwed up 616 Caps Shield and its more unbreakable than Adamantium.

My point stands either way. :)

I still like to see the actual proof of Caps Shield is Adamantium if ya can.

Also I have stop Reading after Ultimantum.

I don't know if the sword is magical or not, but Hulk also broke an adamntium needle remember? Here are some occurrences.

" the Hulk was able to break an Adamantium needle. Another incident regarding Adamantium's durability involved Sabretooth. He possesses four Adamantium claws implanted within each forearm. Through circumstances yet to be revealed, one of the claws implanted within his left forearm is broken. Lady Deathstrike, possessing an Adamantium laced skeleton, had her neck broken during a battle with Longshot when he used his ability to affect probability. Valkyrie destroyed Captain America's Adamantium shield."

Tis from a wikia entry though. But I actually recall all these events, except the Lady Deathstrike part, not familiar with the Ultimate version of her.

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#163 Posted by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's some more things that support Hulk's speed.

Describing his reflexes.

Spins his arm so fast underwater it causes a underwater Typhoon.

Beats a jetliner to China with his leaps. Come on, your legs have to propel you equally as fast to travel just as far.

These are really old scans, but along with the stuff I described before, the scans I showed, and the interview with the current Hulk writer. I think it shows that Hulk can clearly move his limbs very fast. Not fast like Superman or anything, but pretty damn fast.

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#164 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@SlimJ87D: Please do. Also you said Valkyrie cut it with her Magic Sword? Magic >>> Adamantium either way. Thors Hammer screwed up 616 Caps Shield and its more unbreakable than Adamantium.

My point stands either way. :)

I still like to see the actual proof of Caps Shield is Adamantium if ya can.

Also I have stop Reading after Ultimantum.

I don't know if the sword is magical or not, but Hulk also broke an adamntium needle remember? Here are some occurrences.

" the Hulk was able to break an Adamantium needle. Another incident regarding Adamantium's durability involved Sabretooth. He possesses four Adamantium claws implanted within each forearm. Through circumstances yet to be revealed, one of the claws implanted within his left forearm is broken. Lady Deathstrike, possessing an Adamantium laced skeleton, had her neck broken during a battle with Longshot when he used his ability to affect probability. Valkyrie destroyed Captain America's Adamantium shield."

Tis from a wikia entry though. But I actually recall all these events, except the Lady Deathstrike part, not familiar with the Ultimate version of her.

Wikiais way wrong on every account.

1) Death Strike had her neck broken. Long Shot Reality Warps with his Luck Powers.

2) Again no one knows why Sabertooth one claw was broken, that's how he was drawn from his first showing with the claws. Maybe they ran out of Adamantium (its precious you know) and again never been stated or touch on as to why one claw is unfinished.

3) Hulk Broke a Admantium Needle from the Injection Tube. Not the Needle itself. So Hulk broke the non Adamantium Needle parts.

4) Caps Shield is not Adamantium. They dont even reference anywhere when it was said to be. Its all Assumption on this lie from a wikia.

All debunk man.

Its all misinformation from a wikia (which is Unreliable as cannon and opinion base) to begin with. I posted the facts.

#165 Posted by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Yeah, all my scans are at home so I can't pull them up. But I swear I've read Cap's shield is adamantium, I've had that fact in my mind for years. It has to come from somewhere. We can search for it together somewhere later.

Online
#166 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: sounds good but Valerkrie was given magic power by Loki. So Magic > adamantium either way. All debunk with facts :).

#167 Posted by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: No problem. Address the needle and everything. It'll only make your argument stronger.

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#168 Posted by jashro44 (21875 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: There is a scan in amazing spider-man 687 where red hulk is leaping from missile to missile in order to get into outer space with iron man and thor. If you want I can get the scan tomorrow (or maybe Saturday)? I know its technically not hulk but there isn't much of a difference between red hulk and green hulk.

#169 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Edited on Page 7 :)

#170 Posted by Oni_Bane (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@Oni_Bane said:

@drgnx said:

@Oni_Bane: Maybe he (SBP) was bracing himself

I don't think bracing yourself is going to be enough.

Unfortunately the only time I recall that working wasn't cannon (superman vs hulk)

Black Adam is a Superman-level character, in the next couple of panels Superboy-Prime unintentionally BFR'd Black Adam. He didn't seem hurt from the punch when you see him back on Earth-S.

#171 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

Can someone discuss the feat of Squirrel Girl beating Doom and Thanos? Is it PIS or is it canon?

#172 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Oni_Bane said:

@drgnx said:

@Oni_Bane said:

@drgnx said:

@Oni_Bane: Maybe he (SBP) was bracing himself

I don't think bracing yourself is going to be enough.

Unfortunately the only time I recall that working wasn't cannon (superman vs hulk)

Black Adam is a Superman-level character, in the next couple of panels Superboy-Prime unintentionally BFR'd Black Adam. He didn't seem hurt from the punch when you see him back on Earth-S.

Thats fine, they don't weigh that much, I'm pretty sure they can send each other flying without actually hurting each other. I'm merely pointing out that if SBP braced himself (more) with his flying powers, it could explain why Adam didn't send him flying where as MMH did.

#173 Posted by Shawnbaby (10789 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby:

"So, We disregard any and all feats that put Daredevil and Batman at the same level as Captain America simply because Ed Brubaker says Cap is physically superior to both of them?"

Who else are we suppose to believe? (Yes, I'm waiting on your response to respond to it).

I've already answered that question...We don't go by what any one Writer says...we go by feats. If Daredevil has feats that consistently put him on a level of equivalency with Captain America...Then it doesn't matter what Brubaker, or any other writer, might say. Same goes for Batman.

#174 Edited by Saren (25681 posts) - - Show Bio

My two cents? Cap is an enhanced human and possesses a physical edge over people like Batman and Daredevil. Ultimately, there's no denying that. But both Wayne and Murdock's own physical abilities as well as Cap's record with people not on his physical level indicate that in a fight with Rogers, his physical attributes are not going to be a gamechanger, and any physical edge is slight at best. If Steve's enhanced physicals don't make as much of a difference in an actual fight as much as, say, his H2H skills or shield do, and if street levelers from Batroc to Deadpool can all cope with his enhanced stats despite being (on paper) physically inferior, why would those stats be a gamechanger against Batman or Daredevil? The only time Cap's stats advantage has ever made a difference against Daredevil, for instance, is in Streets of Poison, where Daredevil was out of practice and Cap was out of his mind on drugs. When they fought recently in Daredevil #2, Matt didn't have a problem contending with or disarming Steve despite the latter's physical edge. I put very little stock in what one writer says. Dwayne McDuffie once said Static was as powerful as Magneto --- doesn't make it so.

Moderator
#175 Posted by Shawnbaby (10789 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@drgnx said:

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby:

I agree...that whole "Mile a minute" run thing is pretty impressive...and Batman doesn't have any feats where he specifically says "I can run "X"mph" and then is shown to do just that. My point is more that Batman also has feats that would place him beyond the abilities of modern day humans without any kind of physical enhancements whatsoever. I would not say "Batman and Captain America are exactly the Same". All I have been saying is that a statement from one writer of Captain America is not usable as evidence any more than an entry on the Captain America Wiki. We've all seen what happens when someone tries to bring up Wikis as evidence...they get laughed at, insulted, or just completely ignored.

I disagree. Ed Burbaker wrote cap for 8 years and he has written a good chunk of caps modern stuff if I'm not mistaken. It shows how has been written to a higher standard then your average peak human has in recent showings.

Shawnbaby, One thing I need to point out is that evolution is generally defined by differences not similarities. There are many things humans seem to replicate through some "PIS" training or side effects, but look for things Captain can do that non of these other non-enhanced peak humans can do despite their training.

Differences?...like the fact that Spider-Man can crawl on walls and sense danger, Daredevil can feel a laser sight on his forehead and identify a person from 20 feet away by the sound of their heart beat, and Susan Richards can turn invisible and create force-fields? Cap can't do any of those things...yet all of them are also "enhanced humans". Evolution has nothing to do with any of them. All of their powers come from an outside influence, such as a bite from a radioactive Spider, exposure to radioactive chemicals, Cosmic Storms... or a Super Soldier Serum and exposure to Vita Rays.

I'm talking about Captain America and non-mutated humans. All of those guys you brought up are genetically mutated even if it was not through natural evolution, they are clearly mutants, with no indication of being related to normal human evolution. Also, as we have discussed, there are different branches of evolution possible and the same applies to mutations, so bringing them up serves no purpose for your argument as they are clearly genetically enhanced as you yourself pointed out. Since they were mutated in different way, they were enhanced in different way, and that is why Cap A can't do their feats, but what is your line of reasoning here with this point?

You used Batman as your example of a peak human (specifically a non enhanced one) that has replicated some of Cap A's feats and that is who I'd want you to compare the differences between Captain America to.

You said

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

You responded to

Huh. So Cap is the highest possible point of human evolution, without being a Mutant?

With

Which would mean he is not the highest possible point of human evolution.

This has been you're main argument so far

  1. You discredit comic book sources that indicate C.A. is a more evolved form of human, because it is mentioned once
  2. Then you try to argue that the X gene is what Mankind are supposed to evolve into, until I pointed out that it is possible for mankind to evolve into multiple branches, like any other species
  3. Then you're trying to argue that other humans can replicate some of C.A feats, which means little, hence why I said look at what they (peak humans can't do) compared to C.A.
  4. Now you're trying to state that other mutations can do other things, that Cap A. can't do, which has nothing to do with peak humans, and also has nothing to do with the Captains experiments (different conditions, not to mention his was intended while the ones you mentioned were all accidents)

Here is what you're not addressing, has Captain A ever been refereed to anything other than human (peak/evolved/otherwise)? Because if Cap A has never been refereed to as a mutant, but as a peak human, but can do things no other human can do, then he is obviously more evolved or enhanced beyond Olympic levels. And on that note; you can't say that he as only been refereed to an evolved (or beyond Olympic) human once and discredit that statement, but then turn around and classify him as a mutant unless he been refereed to as one in the comics or officially several times.

Here was your first post

I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

You have gone from arguing if Cap America was the top of human evolution to arguing if he is even part of natural/intended evolution just for the sake of arguing...So he is an overclocked human above peak, not really a mutant (spiderman, x-men, Fantastic four), still human, but yet not more evolved ... srsly?

Yes, I discredit the "Comic Book Sources" that mention Cap is a more evolved form of human...because its never actually been mentioned in a Comic Book. It's a possible interpretation of what One writer said about Captain America in an Interview.

The actual intent of the procedure doesn't matter. Captain America gained his abilities through outside interference and not because of any evolutionary imperative. In effect there's no difference between how Captain America got his Powers than how Spider-Man, Daredevil, and Fantastic Four got theirs. They all started as regular Baseline Humans and, due to an outside factor (Radioactive Spider, Over-exposure to Radiation, or a Super Soldier Serum working in conjunction with Vita Ray Exposure) developed abilities beyond the scope of regular humans. There's no "Evolution" involved there.

You say I'm not addressing that Captain America has always been referred to as Human (peak/evolved/otherwise). Well, Steve Rogers is officially classified as an Enhanced Human...and So is Matt Murdock..so what does that prove exactly? It certainly doesn't prove evolution.

Yes, Ive stated that Captain America is a "Tuned Up" or "Over-Clocked" Human. And that doesn't mean he's evolved. It's like when you bore out a Corvette Engine...you haven't created an entirely new car...you've just optimized it. That's how I see Captain America. Where his actual Super Powers come in is that his muscles do not build up with Lactic Acid...which means he can push himself harder and for longer periods of time.

Yes, I'm saying that Captain America is, evolutionarily speaking, still Human...an enhanced Human...but not a member of a different Species. Just like Ben Grimm, Peter Parker, Reed Richards, Johnny Storm, Susan Richards and Matt Murdock are all still Human. They may all have genetic differences...but those were not the product of evolution. Mutants, however, are an example of evolution. They were born with a different chromosomal make-up than regular Home Sapiens. The X-Gene may create different powers in each of them...but it's still present in each and every one of them. There's a commonality with mutants. No such commonality exists between altered humans.

#176 Edited by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby:

"So, We disregard any and all feats that put Daredevil and Batman at the same level as Captain America simply because Ed Brubaker says Cap is physically superior to both of them?"

Who else are we suppose to believe? (Yes, I'm waiting on your response to respond to it).

I've already answered that question...We don't go by what any one Writer says...we go by feats. If Daredevil has feats that consistently put him on a level of equivalency with Captain America...Then it doesn't matter what Brubaker, or any other writer, might say. Same goes for Batman.

You sound very stubborn at this point... My patience with you is running out because you are not paying attention to my post and just writing what you feel. I honestly don't even think you read 1 word that I wrote because if you did I wouldn't have to repeat myself 5 times already.

Shawnbaby says "We should go by feats, not what Ed Brubaker says" even though Ed Brubaker specifically references 2 feats that happened from 2 other writers that put him above Daredevil and Punisher. Ed Brubaker based his writing off of what he has seen. Look again, this time I won't put the spoiler tags because I feel that you're not even looking at them. Captain America sprints far past DD.

Then he mentions Steve running past Punisher who had a clear head start and even a sucker punch.

So yes, Brubaker is using feats in his arguments too, he's not just playing his word out as god. Earlier you said that Batman and Daredevil have strength feats and healing feats on par with Captain America. Show me.

Show me if they are capable of falling out of a plane so high it causes a crater on the ground or smashes a car in half.

Show me where they have lifted a 100 lb piece of concrete and demolished a portion of a building with it.

Show me where they have performed a 2 story vertical leap.

Show me where they have performed pole gymnastics to launch themselves up several stories. Or performed a front flip with a 50 to 100 lb block of ice on their legs.

Extreme acrobatics, this one he uses acrobatics to lose a special ops scout team and then uses gymnastic pull bar methods to leap 10 to 12 stories high which is completely ridiculous as you can see the water basin on the roof he is heading towards and he lands right next to it in front of the team:

Lol, have you seen this one? Does a front flip with about 100 lbs of ice on his legs and hits iceman with it then beats up beast:

Extreme acrobatics, this one he uses acrobatics to lose a special ops scout team and then uses gymnastic pull bar methods to leap 10 to 12 stories high which is completely ridiculous as you can see the water basin on the roof he is heading towards and he lands right next to it in front of the team:

Lol, have you seen this one? Does a front flip with about 100 lbs of ice on his legs and hits iceman with it then beats up beast:

The slab of ice is a very important feat because he clearly didn't use his legs to perform the front flip. It was all upper core and he did it with the weight of the ice block.

Or where they have survived a bullet to the head.

It's time for you to put your money where your mouth is. You keep talking about these feats that put them physically on par with Captain America, lets see them. Two of them I got thanks to Ed Brubaker mentioning them. For once, quit writing us up a long paragraph and show us these feats that you care so dearly about.

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#177 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

@drgnx said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@drgnx said:

@jashro44 said:

@Shawnbaby:

I agree...that whole "Mile a minute" run thing is pretty impressive...and Batman doesn't have any feats where he specifically says "I can run "X"mph" and then is shown to do just that. My point is more that Batman also has feats that would place him beyond the abilities of modern day humans without any kind of physical enhancements whatsoever. I would not say "Batman and Captain America are exactly the Same". All I have been saying is that a statement from one writer of Captain America is not usable as evidence any more than an entry on the Captain America Wiki. We've all seen what happens when someone tries to bring up Wikis as evidence...they get laughed at, insulted, or just completely ignored.

I disagree. Ed Burbaker wrote cap for 8 years and he has written a good chunk of caps modern stuff if I'm not mistaken. It shows how has been written to a higher standard then your average peak human has in recent showings.

Shawnbaby, One thing I need to point out is that evolution is generally defined by differences not similarities. There are many things humans seem to replicate through some "PIS" training or side effects, but look for things Captain can do that non of these other non-enhanced peak humans can do despite their training.

Differences?...like the fact that Spider-Man can crawl on walls and sense danger, Daredevil can feel a laser sight on his forehead and identify a person from 20 feet away by the sound of their heart beat, and Susan Richards can turn invisible and create force-fields? Cap can't do any of those things...yet all of them are also "enhanced humans". Evolution has nothing to do with any of them. All of their powers come from an outside influence, such as a bite from a radioactive Spider, exposure to radioactive chemicals, Cosmic Storms... or a Super Soldier Serum and exposure to Vita Rays.

I'm talking about Captain America and non-mutated humans. All of those guys you brought up are genetically mutated even if it was not through natural evolution, they are clearly mutants, with no indication of being related to normal human evolution. Also, as we have discussed, there are different branches of evolution possible and the same applies to mutations, so bringing them up serves no purpose for your argument as they are clearly genetically enhanced as you yourself pointed out. Since they were mutated in different way, they were enhanced in different way, and that is why Cap A can't do their feats, but what is your line of reasoning here with this point?

You used Batman as your example of a peak human (specifically a non enhanced one) that has replicated some of Cap A's feats and that is who I'd want you to compare the differences between Captain America to.

You said

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

You responded to

Huh. So Cap is the highest possible point of human evolution, without being a Mutant?

With

Which would mean he is not the highest possible point of human evolution.

This has been you're main argument so far

  1. You discredit comic book sources that indicate C.A. is a more evolved form of human, because it is mentioned once
  2. Then you try to argue that the X gene is what Mankind are supposed to evolve into, until I pointed out that it is possible for mankind to evolve into multiple branches, like any other species
  3. Then you're trying to argue that other humans can replicate some of C.A feats, which means little, hence why I said look at what they (peak humans can't do) compared to C.A.
  4. Now you're trying to state that other mutations can do other things, that Cap A. can't do, which has nothing to do with peak humans, and also has nothing to do with the Captains experiments (different conditions, not to mention his was intended while the ones you mentioned were all accidents)

Here is what you're not addressing, has Captain A ever been refereed to anything other than human (peak/evolved/otherwise)? Because if Cap A has never been refereed to as a mutant, but as a peak human, but can do things no other human can do, then he is obviously more evolved or enhanced beyond Olympic levels. And on that note; you can't say that he as only been refereed to an evolved (or beyond Olympic) human once and discredit that statement, but then turn around and classify him as a mutant unless he been refereed to as one in the comics or officially several times.

Here was your first post

I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

You have gone from arguing if Cap America was the top of human evolution to arguing if he is even part of natural/intended evolution just for the sake of arguing...So he is an overclocked human above peak, not really a mutant (spiderman, x-men, Fantastic four), still human, but yet not more evolved ... srsly?

Yes, I discredit the "Comic Book Sources" that mention Cap is a more evolved form of human...because its never actually been mentioned in a Comic Book. It's a possible interpretation of what One writer said about Captain America in an Interview.

The actual intent of the procedure doesn't matter. Captain America gained his abilities through outside interference and not because of any evolutionary imperative. In effect there's no difference between how Captain America got his Powers than how Spider-Man, Daredevil, and Fantastic Four got theirs. They all started as regular Baseline Humans and, due to an outside factor (Radioactive Spider, Over-exposure to Radiation, or a Super Soldier Serum working in conjunction with Vita Ray Exposure) developed abilities beyond the scope of regular humans. There's no "Evolution" involved there.

You say I'm not addressing that Captain America has always been referred to as Human (peak/evolved/otherwise). Well, Steve Rogers is officially classified as an Enhanced Human...and So is Matt Murdock..so what does that prove exactly? It certainly doesn't prove evolution.

Yes, Ive stated that Captain America is a "Tuned Up" or "Over-Clocked" Human. And that doesn't mean he's evolved. It's like when you bore out a Corvette Engine...you haven't created an entirely new car...you've just optimized it. That's how I see Captain America. Where his actual Super Powers come in is that his muscles do not build up with Lactic Acid...which means he can push himself harder and for longer periods of time.

Yes, I'm saying that Captain America is, evolutionarily speaking, still Human...an enhanced Human...but not a member of a different Species. Just like Ben Grimm, Peter Parker, Reed Richards, Johnny Storm, Susan Richards and Matt Murdock are all still Human. They may all have genetic differences...but those were not the product of evolution. Mutants, however, are an example of evolution. They were born with a different chromosomal make-up than regular Home Sapiens. The X-Gene may create different powers in each of them...but it's still present in each and every one of them. There's a commonality with mutants. No such commonality exists between altered humans.

So if someone was born with Captain America's traits they too would be "born with a different chromosomal make-up than regular Home Sapiens" and would fit the definitions you just gave for mutants, because genetics as they are, would not allow them to pull off some of the feats slim has posted.

Part of the initial quote you challenged was

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can.

Where you said

I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

You've made it very clear in your initial argument that you thought X-gene was mans future where my issue with this was that it does not exclude other avenues of parallel evolution. My main points on Spiderman, the x-men, and the Fantastic 4 was because you tried to compare them as having abilities that Cap A does not have, when we are discussing Cap A vs Peak humans, not mutations.

The argument was not supposed to be about if Cap A is actually evolved or not but you but weather he represents a mile stone in which humans will some day reach through evolution (in others replicate his feats through natural evolution as a species and not random mutants). The point about the processes is whether or not it genetically altered him to such a state. Whether or not he, himself, is defined as evolved or enhanced is your play on semantics.

#178 Posted by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: For the record, I don't take ANY writers word on anything. It really depends on their credibility and what they say exactly. Ed Brubaker specifically referenced two feats, one with a direct Comparison to someone that is considered peak human and Captain America side by side outperforming him. All that together and for him to write a Eisen award winning Captain America series for 8 years was enough for me to give him the kudos.

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#179 Edited by Shawnbaby (10789 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Yes, I've read every word you have said and looked at all your pretty little pictures. I don't think you've really paid any attention at all to what I've been saying. Yes, It's great that Brubaker references a couple of times where Cap has shown superior physical attributes to Matt and Frank...I won't deny that. All I'm saying is that there are other scans in existence which puts them all on closer to equal footing.

As regards to me showing Feats...I've already shown some. Cap. Batman, and DD all dealing with Bullets in their own respective ways. Cap dodges a single gunshot while throwing his Shield and Disabling Winter Soldier, Batman blocking multiple bullets from a machine gun with his Gauntlet, and Daredevil deflecting a bullet back at the shooter...I'll post them again if you like along with some more:

#180 Edited by Shawnbaby (10789 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx: I'm not going to keep on quoting for the responses here since it's getting to be a huge brick of text. All I am saying is that there is no evidence to support that Captain America is the end result of human potential. That is just one writer's opinion. That's the only reference you'll ever find for that idea. You won't find that explanation in any comic book, Not by Hank Pym, Not by Reed Richards, not by Tony Stark. All it is a statement that Brubaker made about Captain America. I'm not being "Anti-Cap".All I said originally is that I don't like the explanation Brubaker gives about Cap's Physical Abilities. I'm not arguing any semantic difference between "enhanced" or "evolved". If people want to say Cap is more than Peak Human...I'm fine with that...honestly most Street level characters are more than Peak Human.

There is not a single shred of evidence to support this "Captain America represents a milestone in which humans will some day reach through evolution" theory.

#181 Posted by beatboks1 (7236 posts) - - Show Bio

Just for the record I could supply scans of Bat's dropping from planes but their pre Coie. coincidently more believable. uses cape as parachute to slow fall which due to size isnt slow enough, acrobatically directs his fall to things he can use to breaknhis fall etc

#182 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

@drgnx: I'm not going to keep on quoting for the responses here since it's getting to be a huge brick of text. All I am saying is that there is no evidence to support that Captain America is the end result of human potential. That is just one writer's opinion. That's the only reference you'll ever find for that idea. You won't find that explanation in any comic book, Not by Hank Pym, Not by Reed Richards, not by Tony Stark. All it is a statement that Brubaker made about Captain America. I'm not being "Anti-Cap".All I said originally is that I don't like the explanation Brubaker gives about Cap's Physical Abilities. I'm not arguing any semantic difference between "enhanced" or "evolved". If people want to say Cap is more than Peak Human...I'm fine with that...honestly most Street level characters are more than Peak Human.

"You're" argument about Human potential has been nothing more than where you draw the line in the sand between homo sapiens and homo XXXX. I deliberately didn't address this. What do street levelers have to do with this?

There is not a single shred of evidence to support this "Captain America represents a milestone in which humans will some day reach through evolution" theory.

If there was solid evidence for or against we wouldn't have a debate, but I would certainly not consider an authors take on the character "nothing". It is funny that you've been actually trying to explain why it was not possible as you've been having a theoretical debate for several pages, now you turn around with "well...there is not proof"?

#183 Posted by Saren (25681 posts) - - Show Bio

I have some Batman strength feats here, if they help: lifting a one-ton ceiling from Detective Comics #484, kicking down a tree from Batman: Year One, swinging a 600 pound Man-Bat through the air from Batman #656, benchpressing 600 pounds of earth despite being in a disastrously weakened condition at the time (drugged, starved and deprived of sleep over several days) from Batman #681.

Moderator
#184 Posted by Shawnbaby (10789 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@drgnx: I'm not going to keep on quoting for the responses here since it's getting to be a huge brick of text. All I am saying is that there is no evidence to support that Captain America is the end result of human potential. That is just one writer's opinion. That's the only reference you'll ever find for that idea. You won't find that explanation in any comic book, Not by Hank Pym, Not by Reed Richards, not by Tony Stark. All it is a statement that Brubaker made about Captain America. I'm not being "Anti-Cap".All I said originally is that I don't like the explanation Brubaker gives about Cap's Physical Abilities. I'm not arguing any semantic difference between "enhanced" or "evolved". If people want to say Cap is more than Peak Human...I'm fine with that...honestly most Street level characters are more than Peak Human.

"You're" argument about Human potential has been nothing more than where you draw the line in the sand between homo sapiens and homo XXXX. I deliberately didn't address this. What do street levelers have to do with this?

There is not a single shred of evidence to support this "Captain America represents a milestone in which humans will some day reach through evolution" theory.

If there was solid evidence for or against we wouldn't have a debate, but I would certainly not consider an authors take on the character "nothing". It is funny that you've been actually trying to explain why it was not possible as you've been having a theoretical debate for several pages, now you turn around with "well...there is not proof"?

I've said the entire time there is no proof. I've also stated the entire time that there is no way to actually predict human evolution. I agreed with you that there is the possibility for other evolutionary trees....but there is still no evidence to support that Captain America is the end all be all of Human potential. Is it a possibility? Sure. It's also possible that Spider-Man is the true potential, or Johnny Storm. Or Reed Richards, or Bruce Banner...or any one of a hundred other Altered Humans..or maybe none of them.

#185 Edited by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

For anyone that wants to post some up, here's probably the majority of Batman feats here. It's a great site.

http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/

@Shawnbaby:

"All I am saying is that there is no evidence to support that Captain America is the end result of human potential."

"There is not a single shred of evidence to support this "Captain America represents a milestone in which humans will some day reach through evolution" theory."

And there is not a single part in any of the quotes from Brubaker that says Steve reached the end of evolution. Ed Brubaker never said this directly. You are interpreting it that way. I've pointed this out to you multiple times.

A way to define human is "Humans (Homo sapiens) are primates of the family Hominidae, and the only living species of the genus Homo. They originated in Africa, where they reached anatomical modernity about 200,000 years ago and began to exhibit full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago. ^ McHenry, H.M (2009). "Human Evolution". In Michael Ruse & Joseph Travis. Evolution: The First Four Billion Years. Cambridge, Massachusetts: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. p. 265. ISBN 978-0-674-03175-3.

So the word human pretty much refers to Homo sapiens, where we have reached anatomical modernity. I explained this part to you already. So in your terms, if Ed Brubaker explains that Captain America is the farthest Homo Sapiens can reach, it doesn't mean the end of where we as a species end, the next step can be homo superior for all we know.

Ed Brubaker:

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/vie...pl=060330214926

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."

"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER. He's not superman, but clearly, he's been shown to be much faster and stronger than a well-trained athlete, many many times. One of everyone's favorite Cap appearances seems to be DD: Born Again, where he's shown running to fast that he's a breeze."

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/vie...q=ed%20brubaker

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

So in a sense, he's explaining it as a step processes, he's not saying it ends there, there can be a next step.

If you are not happy with that explanation then to each his own. It still doesn't change the fact that none of your scans put them on par with the feats I posted up for Captain America. I don't understand the whole bullet dodge thing and why you are trying to say that makes them all physical equal. So is Hawkeye physically on par with Batman then? He dodges bullets too. That is a rhetorical question. If I do not respond to you in your next post it will be because I have lost interest. I'm sorry, but it has become an exhausting conversation and a battle over a technicality because the way one man interprets another man's open words.

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#186 Edited by Shawnbaby (10789 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

For anyone that wants to post some up, here's probably the majority of Batman feats here. It's a great site.

http://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/

@Shawnbaby:

"All I am saying is that there is no evidence to support that Captain America is the end result of human potential."

"There is not a single shred of evidence to support this "Captain America represents a milestone in which humans will some day reach through evolution" theory."

Ed Brubaker never said this directly. You are interpreting it that way. I've pointed this out to you multiple times.

A way to define human is "Humans (Homo sapiens) are primates of the family Hominidae, and the only living species of the genus Homo. They originated in Africa, where they reached anatomical modernity about 200,000 years ago and began to exhibit full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago. ^ McHenry, H.M (2009). "Human Evolution". In Michael Ruse & Joseph Travis. Evolution: The First Four Billion Years. Cambridge, Massachusetts: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. p. 265. ISBN 978-0-674-03175-3.

So the word human pretty much refers to Homo sapiens, where we have reached anatomical modernity. I explained this part to you already. So in your terms, if Ed Brubaker explains that Captain America is the farthest Homo Sapiens can reach, it doesn't mean the end of where we as a species end, the next step can be homo superior for all we know.

Ed Brubaker:

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/vie...pl=060330214926

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."

"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER. He's not superman, but clearly, he's been shown to be much faster and stronger than a well-trained athlete, many many times. One of everyone's favorite Cap appearances seems to be DD: Born Again, where he's shown running to fast that he's a breeze."

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/vie...q=ed%20brubaker

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

So in a sense, he's explaining it as a step processes, he's not saying it ends there, there can be a next step.

If you are not happy with that explanation then to each his own. It still doesn't change the fact that none of your scans put them on par with the feats I posted up for Captain America. I don't understand the whole bullet dodge thing and why you are trying to say that makes them all physical equal. So is Hawkeye physically on par with Batman then? He dodges bullets too. That is a rhetorical question.

Yes, I know what you said...if you read some of my other statements i actually acknowledge that Brubaker might not have actually meant evolution. Also, The First Person to interpret What Brubaker said as evolution was you right on page 1. So don't pin that whole thing on me.

@SlimJ87D said:

Captain America is NOT just a peak human. He is what humans will be one day when we evolve and he is at the peak of that.

#187 Posted by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: I'm going to smack my keyboard on my head.Human: referring to the specific sub species as homo sapien.

So even if I used that term and I'm talking about humans, I'm not talking about it's the end of our evolution, I'm talking about the end of homo sapiens where the next step in evolution can be something else like homo superior or homo (fill in the blank).

I am going to pin the whole thing on you, because you started this whole debate over a technicality. For whatever reason I feel like if I let you have the last words you will be satisfied.

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#188 Edited by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

Just for the record the second set of pics with Cap "supposedly" running past Punisher is false. You can see he actually took the fire escape stairs up. You can see the rails in the first panel/pic and with the added perspective of where Cap is standing in the second and where he starts to chase Castle from in the third, follow where he came up. He went a completely different route to reach the roof. You can even see his foot prints in the snow leading back to the rail in the third scan.

Still a nice accomplishment to beat Frank to the roof but leagues away from racing past him on the stairwell without Castle noticing.

Moderator
#189 Edited by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler: I know. I'm expressing that he beat him there. The only person he passed up side by side was DD. But in a sense, I guess he did pass him up to the finish line at least.

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#190 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Ah gotcha. My bad man, misinterpreted what you were explaining.

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#191 Posted by Shawnbaby (10789 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: I'm going to smack my keyboard on my head.Human: referring to the specific sub species as homo sapien.

So even if I used that term and I'm talking about humans, I'm not talking about it's the end of our evolution, I'm talking about the end of homo sapiens where the next step in evolution can be something else like homo superior or homo (fill in the blank).

I am going to pin the whole thing on you, because you started this whole debate over a technicality. For whatever reason I feel like if I let you have the last words you will be satisfied.

I just think it's funny that you attack me over my interpretation...when you had the same interpretation. And there is still no evidence to support the theory, whether he was talking about Humanity as a whole or just the Homo Sapiens subset. No. Proof.

Also, you seem to have Violated your own Rules:

Rules:

1. Respect the persons analysis. If you disagree, explain why. You guys must discuss why the feat is valid or invalid. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT take this personal. Share and educate with one another. If you need to PM and curse at each other then do so.

You seem to have taken this whole thing VERY personally and you haven't been all that respectful towards me at all. You've been rude and dismissive of my opinions from the get go.

#192 Edited by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: Honestly, you disrespected me first. Reread our whole conversation. I had to repeat myself multiple times to get a point through to you. This has never happen against Jashro, Super_Soldierm Citizenbane, Vance, not even with my debates with Dex_Starr. Even on this page, I had to repeat and reexplain the humans being defined as homo sapiens. I began to rewrite the same argument the same way multiple times. I am sorry for the way things turned out but I am not sorry for the way I had to handle things. If anything, I think I was quite generous for taking the time to show you all these scans and having the patience to reexplain the same argument to you over and over again. But for the sake of this thread lets just drop it please. Now moving along.

One of my favorite things to debunk in the past.

Superboy-Prime has the same strength as Silver Age Superman so therefore all of Silver Age Superman's feats can be used for Superboy-Prime

This stems from one of my longest debate with two members, and

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/superboy-prime-vs-marvel-dc/645901/?page=4

Now the argument is that Superboy-Prime was never retconned by the COIE Anti-Monitor and that he has retained all his powers since then. So many users in the past have tried to come on here and state ridiculous feats like SUperboy-Prime being on SIlver Age Superman's level and therefore he's 100 times stronger than Superman. This statement simply does not make sense. I bet you dozens of users can chime in on this, and just to name a few off the top of my head.

First argument, simple mathematics, here is Silver Age Superman towing dozens of planets here.

We know that our Pre-Flashpoint Superman could barely tow a planet all by himself. He needed MM and Wonder Woman's help once, and Green Lanterns for another planet. Compared to above, this would make Silver Age Superman almost about 40 to 70 times more stronger than Superman. So if Superboy-Prime really was as strong as SA Superman, why couldn't he push back Earth 2 and New Earth Superman if he is suppose to be equal to 40 or 70 Supermen?

If he was really SA Superman and had all that awesome strength, why couldn't he break free of just 2 Supermen?

Second, if he was really 40 to 70 times more powerful than Superman, that would make it like a man fighting a baby. A punch from a Batman would probably one shot a baby and yet Superboy-Prime never really oneshotted anyone, not even Black Adam. Some weird time rift happen and Black Adam just disappeared but he was shown to be perfectly fine.

Third, If he was really as suppose to be a 40 to 70 times Superman, and had all his durability, how could Krypto, SUperboy, Flash (Bart) all draw blood from him?

In a matter of fact, he was KOed by the titans all working together. And if you believe it's PIS, think about it logically. Here is one of my old posts about the event.

"I accept that the Teen Titans were capable of KOing Prime. After all they had Supergirl, Connor, Miss Martian, Wonder Girl and Bart Allan, all capable of hitting within %75 to %100 of Superman's power hitting Prime multiple times. But for the sake of this debate I think the OP does not want to use what happen there.

But Bart was capable of drawing blood from Prime, this is a Flash though and they hit with more force than Superman does IMO due to their speed."

barrowing an old post from an old friend of mine,

said:

"

Also, as soon as Superboy Prime does anything on ^this^ level, I will admit that he stances a snowball's chance in hell."

I'd have to agree wit him.

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#193 Posted by Killemall (18582 posts) - - Show Bio

o_O People actually agrue that ^^^^^, i mean the whole magic invulnerability would have been a dead give away wouldnt it? Not to mention we have another Pre-Crisis Kryptonian running around in DcU who sure as hell doesnt look as powerful as PC Supergirl (Boobgirl, or was it powergirl, i get distracted at times). Also Pre-crisis generally refers to Bronze Age rather than Silver Age more often that not.

#194 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

smh

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#195 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

There is one thing that I would like debunked once and for all. The fact that Marvel Zeus is equal to Odin. I know that since they are both considered skyfathers, people tend to immediately assume that they are on the same power level...yet i've never actually seen a decent feat from Zeus that could place him on the same league as Thor's pappy.

So...Marvel connoisseurs....help me out here

#196 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

Superboy-Prime has the same strength as Silver Age Superman so therefore all of Silver Age Superman's feats can be used for Superboy-Prime

You can't mix feats from alternate versions of a character, you can't mix K.C Superman with A.S. Superman and New Earth Superman, so why would Earth Prime Kal-El and S.A. Kal-El be any different. (Feats are used to gauge the strength.)

#197 Edited by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Yes, and there are quite a bit of them. BUt they have disappeared. He had a cult following for awhile when he was popular here.

"prime= silver age

prime has strength feats that not even SA superman has and great durability feats"

That's one of the users that support Superboy-Prime being SA level. He was a big advocate on proving that Superboy-Prime was and more durable than Silver Age Superman due to his punches "altering" reality, survivng a Guardian explosion, etc.

@drgnx said:

Superboy-Prime has the same strength as Silver Age Superman so therefore all of Silver Age Superman's feats can be used for Superboy-Prime

You can't mix feats from alternate versions of a character, you can't mix K.C Superman with A.S. Superman and New Earth Superman, so why would Earth Prime Kal-El and S.A. Kal-El be any different. (Feats are used to gauge the strength.)

Well the users that support the theory that SBP = SAS try and claim that he worked along with SA Superman and he was never retconned so therefore he retains the strength levels he had when he encountered SAS. That is their main argument.

@Jayfournines said:

There is one thing that I would like debunked once and for all. The fact that Marvel Zeus is equal to Odin. I know that since they are both considered skyfathers, people tend to immediately assume that they are on the same power level...yet i've never actually seen a decent feat from Zeus that could place him on the same league as Thor's pappy.

So...Marvel connoisseurs....help me out here

This is really hard to debunk and no one really has been able to show either or. The biggest showings of Zeus are defeating the Avengers with minimum effort and taking on Green Scar hulk without any effort. Other times, we have Zeus or Odin saying id dialogue they are about equal, or other pantheons putting them at the same level. But there is no real hard evidence as to who is more powerful than the other or even if they are equals.

This is Mephisto describing them and the artist putting them together.

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#198 Posted by SlimJ87D (9945 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines: Here's more too.

Also, you have Thor in this scan state that Odin's equal is Zeus.

Seems that way too, the way the respect and speak to each other.

And here they even fight alongside each other, neither really outdid the other.

And when forces were assembled to take on a great threat to the 616 Universe, Zeus was placed with some of the strongest beings.

There's nothing that really supports him being above Odin, but feat wise Odin has much more feats. But it seems marvel tries their best to put them on the same level without them actually having a fight.

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#199 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D:

I kind of get their logic, they are assuming that all kryptonians across the multiverse are created equal, but it still breaks the general rule of continuity even if they did interact.

Here is an angle I tried once regarding the retconn, really just to see how far I could get...

I had a private debate with someone a while back on the same subject with earth 2 Kal-L regarding his lower showings post crises. I was trying to push a theory that while the paradise-zone saved them from being erased or losing their memory, it might not have preserved their power levels. Basically I was arguing that Kal-L's lower showings were not PIS but a result of the crises events. Powergirl was an example of someone who was retconned, but she still got her memory back when she made contact with E-2 Kal, but didn't get her strength back. I tried to make a case that E-2 Kal could have been in a similar state after leaving the dimension.

The issue is we were arguing on the premise that SBP had his pre-crisis powers, so my point there was that perhaps him being from earth prime, his world might not have actually been destroyed and recreated (I could not remember if it was actually shown blown up) since it is the world that allows the others to exists (e-3 owlman pointed this out - and I think it is somewhat relevant since its writers control the stories and owlman would be cannon on a multi-verse level).

But SBP could technically have been weakened without losing his memories as well.

It really was just a Theory, but if showings are generally lower, without any mention in comics, we would have to assume somethings changed. But even if he didn't change, Superboy fighting by S.A./B.A Superman is not a feat, since it was never established that all kryptonians were created equal across the multiverse.

#200 Edited by Picard (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

Captain America is NOT just a peak human. He is what humans will be one day when we evolve and he is at the peak of that.

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

"Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph."

Here, this is what Brubaker was talking about.

And finally this is Ed Brubakers writing here where he clearly puts it out there in his own dialogue, no artist is determining an obscure feat here. Cap is clearly running 5 miles in 5 minutes.

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can."

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

This is stupid statement for one simple reason: evolution doesn't have direction! It is simply an adaptation to very the specific type of environment

I don't know how someone can understand that? So telling that humans will somday be just like Cap America is today, is flat out wrong.