#101 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: you're not getting attacked I just don't understand where you're going with this. The point was Steve is stronger than a peak human, simple as that. I don't understand what else you are trying to prove. The whole"evolved" term has nothing to do with the main point.

It's like my family asking me what's in the bowl, and I try it with my brother and I say "it's ice cream, taste like vanilla bean" then my brother says "it taste like french vanilla actually." Does this change the fact that it's ice cream? no. So you dont agree with the term evolved, butdoes that change the main point that hes above peak human? No.

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#102 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: That actually makes sense, 100 percent.

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#103 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: holy crap, so New52 Superman is turning out to be ridiculously powerful.

#104 Posted by Saren (25088 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines: I think it's mainly because of Scott Lobdell. He wrote this issue of RHatO and the issue of Superman where Clark benchpressed the weight of the Earth for five days nonstop. Superman's showings under other writers aren't anywhere near this good.

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#105 Edited by Binder_full_of_Women (85 posts) - - Show Bio

I read some early 52 Superman and Action Comics and gave up on them. Last I checked he was getting taken out by trains; now he's bench pressing planets. That's a crazy leap of power for such a short amount of time.

#106 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6615 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

Only according to other mutants. Just because someone like Cyclops or Magneto state they are the next stage, a so-called 'superior' species, far more evolved than common man, doesn't make it so.

They have (oft times extremely odd and undeniably undesirable) abilities from a mutated 'X' gene. They are mutants.

I'd like to see a showing with either Hank, High Evolutionary, or some other authority type on the matter, clearly and scientifically proving in Marvel 616 continuity that mutants are indisputably the next chain in human evolution. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of "blah blah blah" elitist crap.

That said, all semantics aside, it can be safely said that Steve Rogers is an enhanced human in every regard ... strength, speed, senses, healing, intellect ... all have been shown to be significantly beyond what any top human athlete could ever dream of achieving.

#107 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

I read some early 52 Superman and Action Comics and gave up on them. Last I checked he was getting taken out by trains; now he's bench pressing planets. That's a crazy leap of power for such a short amount of time.

Action was supposed to take place about 10 years ago (Clark is young and his powers are developing). It's been mentioned through the New52 verse that Superman's powers are growing every day with sun exposure.

@CitizenBane: So now that Lobdell's taking the reigns of Superman, I guess that's what we're going to see, an uber-powered Superman...which I guess can be interesting depending on how his writing turns out. Eh, at least I enjoy Rocafort's pencils.

#108 Edited by Scarlet_Spyder (120 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@Scarlet_Spyder said:

I have one I'd like to see discussed, but I don't have the scans and I am sure someone does. The whole, pre-52 Deathstroke tags speedsters bit.

I have seen a scan where Kid Flash seemed to be running around toying with Slade, and Slade to me looks to be using that calculating talent of his to calculate where KF would travel to and then blasted some ground in front of KF, not actually tagging him directly.

The other scan is where he blasts I think it was Wally who for some reason was on the ground and looking the other direction talking to a cop, then DS runs around a corner, and sets up his staff, which Wally then runs around the corner and trips over.

Both instances that I have seen show some amount of setup/prep/calculation against speedsters not going all out, and are less about him actually pulling out some amazing amount of speed and reflex to actually tag a speedster.

So, can someone prove or disprove this? I am curious to learn the truth of these "feats".

He does tag speedsters, but that's a result of CIS on their part more than anything else. For example, when he tagged Wally in Identity Crisis, you can see that Wally wasn't moving any faster than the speed of sound, because several explosions go off in the time it takes him to reach Slade:

His enhanced reflexes allow him to tag speedsters moving at low mach speeds, but if Flash decides to vibrate his skull out of his head, Slade's screwed. There are several other instances of Slade tagging speedsters, but you can apply this general principle to all of them and it'll still fit.

Basically, by this assessment, it is really not too much different than many others who have been shown to be able tag a speedster (many, not all).

Although, and maybe it is a point of debate, but still to me that scene seems to be more of a planned thing for Slade, and of course some heavy CIS (from a discussion I've had with a bit of a Flash expert in the past, speedforce users are supposed to be able to detect changes in the air, like a bullet or a blade moving through the air...so Wally should have detected that blade before he got there). Sure, his speed/reflexes helped against low mach speedsters, but I still see it as being more his planning/calculating (and of course the aforementioned CIS). I just don't think his enhanced reflexes alone could get the job done, like I have seen some claim (not directed at anyone on this board in particular, just a general observation I have made).

Ah well, again thanks for the further intel and food for thought. It is appreciated=)

#109 Posted by Binder_full_of_Women (85 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

I read some early 52 Superman and Action Comics and gave up on them. Last I checked he was getting taken out by trains; now he's bench pressing planets. That's a crazy leap of power for such a short amount of time.

Action was supposed to take place about 10 years ago (Clark is young and his powers are developing). It's been mentioned through the New52 verse that Superman's powers are growing every day with sun exposure.

@CitizenBane: So now that Lobdell's taking the reigns of Superman, I guess that's what we're going to see, an uber-powered Superman...which I guess can be interesting depending on how his writing turns out. Eh, at least I enjoy Rocafort's pencils.

Magnificent
#110 Posted by beatboks1 (7526 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

Regarding the "does Black Adam strike with magic or not?" thing, he punched Superman in the face and Clark wasn't affected by that to any notable extent, other than being ticked off. Considering Superman is vulnerable to magic, a magic strike should definitely have at least hurt him a bit, if it actually was that.

Yeah his Superman fights were what I was referring to in him not using it much. Like I said his knowledge from the god Zehuti does include the knowedge of magic, maybe he just used it for SBP because he knew of normal Supes weakness and figured his normal approach wouldn't cut it. Definitely inconsistent though, he's only used magic three (maybe four) times I can think of.

#111 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Since its your op would you include people saying Captain Marvel can only be depowered using Shazam lightning as a feat that it worth debunking here? I am asking coz i have seen many people claim this and there are 3 direct instance that contradicts this and wanted your permission before putting it up here.

#112 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@SlimJ87D: Since its your op would you include people saying Captain Marvel can only be depowered using Shazam lightning as a feat that it worth debunking here? I am asking coz i have seen many people claim this and there are 3 direct instance that contradicts this and wanted your permission before putting it up here.

nonono...go ahead and put it up, I did not know Batson could be depowered by other instances that are not shamzam and his derivatives

#113 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines: I think i will wait for his approval, its his OP.

Also till then if you are interested, my rebuttal to that statement is the second last comment on http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/captain-marvel-vs-thor/4997/?page=20 page.

#114 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: You can put anything up you want, no worries. I am going to try and Index this thread before I go out to my thanksgiving.

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#115 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Oh cheers thanks =)

Contrary to what i have seen people state, Captain Marvel can and has been de-powered by normal lightning.

Power of Shazam 20: This is a part of Final Night Story arc, and you can see Billy turned human once hit by normal lightning. He then turns back to Captain Marvel after he yell shazam .

Superman Beyond 01: This is a part of Final Crisis story arc, where you know the whole Cosmic Armor Superman story happens. Superman and Captain Marvel try and successfully lift the book of infinite pages, but as a backlash, a lightning comes out of the book, which not only turns Captain Marvel back to Billy but also knocks him out

Power of Shazam 14: This is NOT Captain Marvel but rather Captain Marvel Junior (just wanted to make sure you dont feel like i am trying to mislead you) and he is turned back to normal human after hit by Chain Lightning's well lightning. The reason i am presenting this despite Captain Marvel Jr and Captain Marvel not being the same person is because while they power level is different the source of their powers are similar.

@beatboks1: Since you are out reigning JSA expert, could you confirm if there are any instances that contradicts the above? Many thanks in advance.

#116 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

I tried my best, but I really hate this formatting crap when editing OPs. Parchment v2 messes up the post everytime I try to edit it and Parchment v1 has llimited abilities to edit and also messes up. 
 
Is there anyway to link to a specific post? I think that would be better. 

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#117 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn it, Parchment v2 deleted all of my posts in the first 3 I shared but kept the images... 

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#118 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: It seems to me that, during the three instances there were very specific circumstances to the depowerment...and that it may not be random lightning from that of a storm....however, this does confirm that Billy can be depowered by lightning other than the wizard Shazam's.

#119 Posted by God_Spawn (38317 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine fights like an idiot. And the freaking deer. I shall have a field day with this later.

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#120 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

Just in case the OP gets F'd up again I need this post in history till I figure out why the formatting deletes everything when editing the OP.

Batman vs Deathstroke, Batman did not defeat Deathstroke.

Slade wasn't even trying to fight Batman. He CLEARLY has a mission that is more important to him. Slade beat the snot out of Batman here and left him on the ground while holding a sniper rifle. He could have easily shot Batman in the head with it, but he didn't. He continued on with his mission. Next,

Slade floored Batman again. He could have easily took his sword and stabbed him with it, but he rather continue onto his mission. And finally, for what ever reason in a turn of events, Batman finaly gets an upper hand with a surprise attack.

Superman, Black Adam, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel do not battle at FTL.

How fast is Superman? Sure he can fly at faster than light (FTL), but can he actually move his body at such speeds?

By speculation maybe he can. But from what we have seen, he cannot. Not like the Flash has.

First I will address this notorious scan of Superman chasing Wally.

People try and use this scan and the calculation above to show that they are running FTL. Now they misinterpret the scan and ignore all the narration and dialogue that Wally states before he approximates his calculation. He says that if he steals Superman's speed and turns him into a statue like he did to inertia, then it the speed and momentum they are moving at would make it so like he is moving much faster than FTL. Don't believe me, I have more evidence.

This is Superman running after Flash, people have used this scan to try and say Superman easily runs at light speed. He is not flying and using his biosphere. Therefore lets accept that he is using his superspeed with his limbs. Look at his facial expression, he is struggling to catch the Flash while the Flash barely seems to exert himself. Now how fast are they actually moving? Here is the scan that people FAIL to post when they are claiming FTL again.

Read what Superman says there. He hears something speaking a hypersonic speeds meaning that the Flash, who can use his powers of the speed force to add speed to almost anything even sound itself, is not running near the speed of light here. Superman running slower than Hypderspeeds, scale how fast someone can run to how fast they can punch and you can at least have a good rough estimate of how fast Superman can battle at. I'm currently too lazy to perform the research and claculations.

Lastly, we know what happens when Barry is serious.

To be continued: As of March 3, 2012 a user ( ) has pointed an awesome scan to me of Black Adam moving at Mach 500. Might debunk or give another analysis as to how fast Superman can actually move his limbs.

Spider-man did NOT support the whole Daily Bugle by himself. He took the place of a single column.

@MagneticShockwave:

Again, everything you showed me is vague and ambiguous. Without a proper gauge on what is going on with the feat we DON'T know how much Peter is actually supporting or lifting. All we know is that the building is falling due to a domino effect. Peter is just supporting that first domino that is falling down. How much that single domino weighs is the ambiguous part.

And even more ambiguity in the scans you showed us (thanks for sharing them BTW)

Peter is ONLY shown putting up one single I-Beam. When he sets that one up, it is shown that there was one next to him. The picture is angled so we can only see what was on one of his sides. How do we know that there is not another one right next to him? Or a few behind him? Or around him?

His spider-sense could have lead him to where that single and most important I-Beam was.

Lets just agree to disagree or agree that the best way to gauge Peter's strength is to know that lifting anymore than 10-20 tons is out of character for him. And I'm totally fine with agreeing to disagree.

@jashro44: What's so hard abotu believe Black Panther has only mastered 1 martial art? Just because one is rated at a 5, 6 or 7 doesn't mean one is surely better than the other. Black Panther was raised primly in Wakanda. Sure he may know multiple martial arts, but he completely mastered only 1.

Example:

Black Panther might have mastered 1 but is familiar with techniques from 20 other ones.

Cap may have mastered 7, but those 7 may be all he knows.

I do believe that Spider-man can beat Wolverine in certain scenarios, but there are other scenarios he wouldn't be able to. This fight really depends on the set up.

As for who is the strongest Spider-man can beat, this would mean people he can beat anyone anytime anywhere.

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#121 Edited by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: That would be nice. Do one on Wolverine's healing factor as well. I think people need to understand that the lack of food and maybe alcohol could depower his healing factor a bit.

Lastly, do you know how to get at URL to a specific post? Lets say I want to post a URL to this one here and it will always take me there.

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#122 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines: I dont think there was anything unusual during Final Crisis and the being that was the cause of the lighting and other horrible weather during that time was Sun Eater who should have no magical connection, it should be normal lightning.

Also i am missing the scan, but there is one more instance like this during Eclipso Rising.

#123 Posted by God_Spawn (38317 posts) - - Show Bio
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#124 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I meant if there are specific URLs that will take you to a post. Like lets say the 25th post in this thread. Is there anyway I can URL to that specific post?

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#125 Edited by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (84704 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

Just in case the OP gets F'd up again I need this post in history till I figure out why the formatting deletes everything when editing the OP.

Batman vs Deathstroke, Batman did not defeat Deathstroke.

Slade wasn't even trying to fight Batman. He CLEARLY has a mission that is more important to him. Slade beat the snot out of Batman here and left him on the ground while holding a sniper rifle. He could have easily shot Batman in the head with it, but he didn't. He continued on with his mission. Next,

Slade floored Batman again. He could have easily took his sword and stabbed him with it, but he rather continue onto his mission. And finally, for what ever reason in a turn of events, Batman finaly gets an upper hand with a surprise attack.


@MagneticShockwave:

Again, everything you showed me is vague and ambiguous. Without a proper gauge on what is going on with the feat we DON'T know how much Peter is actually supporting or lifting. All we know is that the building is falling due to a domino effect. Peter is just supporting that first domino that is falling down. How much that single domino weighs is the ambiguous part.

And even more ambiguity in the scans you showed us (thanks for sharing them BTW)

Peter is ONLY shown putting up one single I-Beam. When he sets that one up, it is shown that there was one next to him. The picture is angled so we can only see what was on one of his sides. How do we know that there is not another one right next to him? Or a few behind him? Or around him?

His spider-sense could have lead him to where that single and most important I-Beam was.

Lets just agree to disagree or agree that the best way to gauge Peter's strength is to know that lifting anymore than 10-20 tons is out of character for him. And I'm totally fine with agreeing to disagree.

@jashro44: What's so hard abotu believe Black Panther has only mastered 1 martial art? Just because one is rated at a 5, 6 or 7 doesn't mean one is surely better than the other. Black Panther was raised primly in Wakanda. Sure he may know multiple martial arts, but he completely mastered only 1.

Example:

Black Panther might have mastered 1 but is familiar with techniques from 20 other ones.

Cap may have mastered 7, but those 7 may be all he knows.

I do believe that Spider-man can beat Wolverine in certain scenarios, but there are other scenarios he wouldn't be able to. This fight really depends on the set up.

As for who is the strongest Spider-man can beat, this would mean people he can beat anyone anytime anywhere.

This is somewhat misleading for the simple fact that Batman didnt win "at the end with a surprise attack." There are also a couple spots in which Batman (if he were a killer) could have ended Slade. He could have killed him in the beginning so I dont really count what Slade could have done but didnt as examples of why Batman didnt beat him.

But I say Batmans first attack was clearly by surprise, Slade downs him (though whether or not he believes Batman is finished and no longer a threat is highly questionable). Batman comes back and attacks while Slade's concentrating on lining up another shot. And again he knocks Batman down (after Batman was clearly taking it to him), but theres a scan that you didnt show that clearly illustrates Batman coming up the ladder shortly after Slade. He then uses a Bat-a-Rang to warn Slade's target. We see the two in the background scuffling, then in another scan that is absent Batman clearly downs Slade. The scan I just mentioned is the one directly before the scan you claim is Batman taking Slade by surprise to finish the fight. Only problem is, it clearly shows Slade being fully aware of Batman, and the fight, before getting laid out. Slade had long since recovered from any surprise attacks displayed in the opening of the conflict. In my opinion Batman won.

you can see the page number at the bottom.
#127 Posted by God_Spawn (38317 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: You can only link to a specific page of the thread, not an exact post. So count whatever post you are on and then link the page to the thread. Since you want post number 25 for example, link page 2 to the thread.

Moderator
#128 Posted by jashro44 (25426 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D:

Batman vs Deathstroke, Batman did not defeat Deathstroke.

I know Gambler all ready stated the same thing but I figured the full showing should go here so people can make up there own opinions.

Point being is batman does have a win on deathstroke....Slade just has 3 over batman (counting there other fight).

#129 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Im going to contribute here.

Ultimate Wolverine or Adamantium is not weaker than its 616 Counter Part.

All these Scenes seem to be taken Ultimate Adamantium is weaker. This is false. Its stated as "Unbreakable" as Adamantium is suppose to be.

Even Mention in his Official Bio as unbreakable Adamantium.

The Top 2 scans show Wolverines fight vs Ultimate Hulk. Last is Ultimate Colossus. all these guys are Mutli THOUSAND Toners in feats. Not 100 Tons. 1000 Tons. Also look at where his Body parts been pulled off. all in joint areas.

Yuri here is explained by Professor Cornelius (who made ultimate Wolverine Skeleton) that some parts of his Body has not been Ossified. This stands to reasons unlike 616 Wolverine who has IMPOSSIBLE Adamntium Joints Ultimate Wolvie does not. Only his Bones (except the one above) are coated. He can be with GREAT strength ripped apart.

Also misinformation from Wikias.

1) Death Strike had her neck broken. Long Shot Reality Warps with his Luck Powers.

2) Again no one knows why Sabertooth one claw was broken, that's how he was drawn from his first showing with the claws. Maybe they ran out of Adamantium (its precious you know) and again never been stated or touch on as to why one claw is unfinished.

3) Hulk Broke a Admantium Needle from the Injection Tube. Not the Needle itself. So Hulk broke the non Adamantium Needle parts.

4) Caps Shield is not Adamantium. They dont even reference anywhere when it was said to be. Its all Assumption on this lie from a wikia.

Its all misinformation from a wikia (which is Unreliable as cannon and opinion base) to begin with. I posted the facts.

#130 Edited by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

@Gambler:

Point being is that Batman really didn't defeat Slade head on all by himself, Slade beat himself when he chose to not incapacitate Batman with lethal force the first 2 times. It's not a feat that should be used in a debate like old use to try and do.

People try and say Batman can beat Captain America because he "clearly" beat Deathstroke, but is it really that clear?

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#131 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@SlimJ87D: Im going to contribute here.

Ultimate Wolverine or Adamantium is not weaker than its 616 Counter Part.

All these Scenes seem to be taken Ultimate Adamantium is weaker. This is false. Its stated as Indestructable as Adamantium is suppose to be.

The Top 2 scans show Wolverines fight vs Ultimate Hulk. Last is Ultimate Colossus. all these guys are Mutli THOUSAND Toners in feats. Not 100 Tons. 1000 Tons. Also look at where his Body parts been pulled off. all in joint areas.

Yuri here is explained by Professor Cornelius (who made ultimate Wolverine Skeleton) that some parts of his Body has not been Ossified. This stands to reasons unlike 616 Wolverine who has IMPOSSIBLE Adamntium Joints Ultimate Wolvie does not. Only his Bones (except the one above) are coated. He can be with GREAT strength ripped apart.

I feel better now. :)

But didn't Ultimate Captain America, who had his shield replaced with an adamantium one, had his Shield

That was an adamantium shield from my memory, and Valkyrie broke it, with her enchanted sword or something like that.

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#132 Edited by God_Spawn (38317 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine's healing factor is indeed dependent on his health state.

Logan's healing factor can be taxed in fights and the severity of the damage tends to lessen. Most people like to claim that the adamantium is responsible for Wolverine's damage soak, but that is only partly true. His healing factor is what lets him take certain hits and keep on ticking. Bone claw Wolverine has tanked being hit by cars, hits from Hulk and Roughhouse to name a few.

This damage soak stems to his children as well.

Daken has been fine after massive explosions, a face slam from an enraged Thing, and hits from Skaar.

Note: Daken does not possess any adamantium and solely has a healing factor.

Examples of Wolverine's healing being depleted.

Wolverine volume 2 issue 88.

Deadpool manages to KO Wolverine not too long after Magneto ripped his adamantium out and almost burned out his healing factor, so it is still a near dead state. Note: Wolverine has been pierced by bullets galore, stabbed plenty of times, has had his throat slashed etc and healed with being KO'd. So Wade definitely can't KO him as easily as he did under normal circumstances.


Wolverine Origins 4.

In his fight with Captain America in Origins, Wolverine is tired. He has not eaten or slept and has been on a non-stop kick butt fest. After he beats Nuke, he encounters Captain America.

Wolverine couldn't even heal crushed tendons to pop his claws.

Wolverine vol 3 issue 45

After this healing feat from Nitro (Wolverine vol 3 # 43) Wolverine he did end up exchanging with Namor. In the end, Namor "one shotted" him by getting a hit on Wolverine from behind off of a distraction.



Wolverine when better rested has tanked hits from Namor and ones that even liquified his organs but remained conscious.


Another instance, Logan after being mind controlled, he ended up facing many a superhero ranging from the Thing to Daredevil. Logan was tired and damaged meaning his HF wasn't up to par and Cap KO'd him in one hit.

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#133 Edited by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio
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#134 Edited by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (84704 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@jashro44:

@Gambler:

Point being is that Batman really didn't defeat Slade head on all by himself, Slade beat himself when he chose to not incapacitate Batman with lethal force the first 2 times. It's not a feat that should be used in a debate like old use to try and do.

People try and say Batman can beat Captain America because he "clearly" beat Deathstroke, but is it really that clear?

Same thing can be said about Batman really. His very first attack is a drop down kick that obviously takes Slade by surprise. Applying the same logic, Batman unnecessarily draws out the fight instead of incapacitating Slade with lethal force. Of course, Batman's character doesnt use lethal force but even still, Batman could have employed any number of gadgets to end the fight without turning it into a physical confrontation. I get what you're saying, and agree about the using it as a "definitive" example of why Batman could beat Character A. But really ABC logic should never be the entire foundation of ones argument anyway. Even when its an example of a clear cut winner. I also agree that this fight is not a "clear" example of Batman defeating Deathstroke but I would say its a defeat none the less.

I was also thinking that Debunking the idea that comicbook fights have a definitive clear cut winner would be a good one to try and tackle. Its one of the fundamental reasons why debating comicbook fights are so addictive and easy to argue over. Not always, but I'd say 95% of the time there will always be one key phrase, some pre-existing context, an injury from a previous issue, an unexplained out of character mistake, etc, that hinders a decisive victory.

#135 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Shawnbaby:

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

Only according to other mutants. Just because someone like Cyclops or Magneto state they are the next stage, a so-called 'superior' species, far more evolved than common man, doesn't make it so.

They have (oft times extremely odd and undeniably undesirable) abilities from a mutated 'X' gene. They are mutants.

I'd like to see a showing with either Hank, High Evolutionary, or some other authority type on the matter, clearly and scientifically proving in Marvel 616 continuity that mutants are indisputably the next chain in human evolution. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of "blah blah blah" elitist crap.

That said, all semantics aside, it can be safely said that Steve Rogers is an enhanced human in every regard ... strength, speed, senses, healing, intellect ... all have been shown to be significantly beyond what any top human athlete could ever dream of achieving.

They actually did that...before the 198 Hank had proof that within a few generations Humanity was going to be completely replaced by Murants. The Scarlet Witch screwed up that whole deal though

#136 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: you're not getting attacked I just don't understand where you're going with this. The point was Steve is stronger than a peak human, simple as that. I don't understand what else you are trying to prove. The whole"evolved" term has nothing to do with the main point.

It's like my family asking me what's in the bowl, and I try it with my brother and I say "it's ice cream, taste like vanilla bean" then my brother says "it taste like french vanilla actually." Does this change the fact that it's ice cream? no. So you dont agree with the term evolved, butdoes that change the main point that hes above peak human? No.

And I'd say it's more like you looking at a Cat and saying "It's a Lion". Just because someone has enhanced abilities it doesn't mean they are the end all be all of human evolution.

#137 Edited by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: you're not getting attacked I just don't understand where you're going with this. The point was Steve is stronger than a peak human, simple as that. I don't understand what else you are trying to prove. The whole"evolved" term has nothing to do with the main point.

It's like my family asking me what's in the bowl, and I try it with my brother and I say "it's ice cream, taste like vanilla bean" then my brother says "it taste like french vanilla actually." Does this change the fact that it's ice cream? no. So you dont agree with the term evolved, butdoes that change the main point that hes above peak human? No.

And I'd say it's more like you looking at a Cat and saying "It's a Lion". Just because someone has enhanced abilities it doesn't mean they are the end all be all of human evolution.

That's a terrible analogy. I don't want to address this again. Ignore the EVOLUTION part. That has nothing to do with the main point. For the last time. The main point is that Captain America is not the peak of human he is a enhanced human. Fair enough you don't like the term evolution being thrown around, fair enough, but even if you replace that word with something else, Captain America regardless is a enhanced human.

If your purpose was to contradict Captain America being enhanced and you want to say he's only peak then do so.

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#138 Posted by jashro44 (25426 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: I don't think anyone else has really used that argument. I agree Slade would win and this is reflected in there fight but it does show that batman can and has beaten slade. I just don't agree that batman has never beaten deathstroke...I agree slade could have killed him twice though.

#139 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: That's fair enough. I'll update my caption to "Batman didn't defeat Deathstroke head to head evenly." I'll do this once I figure out what's wrong with the Parchment formatting.

The moment I hit EDIT in my post, it messes everything up for some odd reason.

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#140 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Shawnbaby:

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

Only according to other mutants. Just because someone like Cyclops or Magneto state they are the next stage, a so-called 'superior' species, far more evolved than common man, doesn't make it so.

They have (oft times extremely odd and undeniably undesirable) abilities from a mutated 'X' gene. They are mutants.

I'd like to see a showing with either Hank, High Evolutionary, or some other authority type on the matter, clearly and scientifically proving in Marvel 616 continuity that mutants are indisputably the next chain in human evolution. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of "blah blah blah" elitist crap.

That said, all semantics aside, it can be safely said that Steve Rogers is an enhanced human in every regard ... strength, speed, senses, healing, intellect ... all have been shown to be significantly beyond what any top human athlete could ever dream of achieving.

Even if mutants are a higher evolutionary stage than Mankind, it does not mean they are the only possible evolution path the race can take. Just like how other life forms are a result of evolution (mutations) from common ancestors, Captain America could represent one Path of evolution (him being on the brink of a new branch of evolution) while those with the X-Gene represent another path (them possibly being just over the brink of a new species).

The problem with the X gene is that is unstable, even if the gene is passed on, it seems to manifest itself differently in the offspring. I'd think there would need to be some sort of stability (as in common traits passed on from generation to generation) before they could be considered a new race, because the way I see it, each individual mutant represents a distinct branch, and we would not classify an individual as a new race.

#141 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: you're not getting attacked I just don't understand where you're going with this. The point was Steve is stronger than a peak human, simple as that. I don't understand what else you are trying to prove. The whole"evolved" term has nothing to do with the main point.

It's like my family asking me what's in the bowl, and I try it with my brother and I say "it's ice cream, taste like vanilla bean" then my brother says "it taste like french vanilla actually." Does this change the fact that it's ice cream? no. So you dont agree with the term evolved, butdoes that change the main point that hes above peak human? No.

And I'd say it's more like you looking at a Cat and saying "It's a Lion". Just because someone has enhanced abilities it doesn't mean they are the end all be all of human evolution.

That's a terrible analogy. I don't want to address this again. Ignore the EVOLUTION part. That has nothing to do with the main point. For the last time. The main point is that Captain America is not the peak of human he is a enhanced human. Fair enough you don't like the term evolution being thrown around, fair enough, but even if you replace that word with something else, Captain America regardless is a enhanced human.

It's actually a much better analogy then yours. Your analogy is about your brother making a fuss about semantics...but that's not what I'm doing here. Mine is about there being a real difference between a House Cat and a Lion...just like there is a real difference between an "enhanced human" and "The final stage of Human evolution". Spider-Man is also an enhanced Human...he is not the end of human evolution. Same goes with the Fantastic Four...and literally hundreds of other Super-Heroes and Villains. Not a single one of them have anything to do with evolution. So, while I respect Mr. Brubaker and his numerous contributions to the Marvel Universe in general and Captain America in specific, he is wrong about Captain America being the end point of Human evolution.

The thing I wanted to discuss was the Evolution statement..and before you started making a big deal about it..some of us were having a good discussion about it...if you don't want to join in on that discussion...fine...don't. If other people want to talk about it...Cool..let's do that. You said you created this thread so people could actually discuss stuff and you keep on getting in the way of that.

#142 Edited by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Shawnbaby:

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

Only according to other mutants. Just because someone like Cyclops or Magneto state they are the next stage, a so-called 'superior' species, far more evolved than common man, doesn't make it so.

They have (oft times extremely odd and undeniably undesirable) abilities from a mutated 'X' gene. They are mutants.

I'd like to see a showing with either Hank, High Evolutionary, or some other authority type on the matter, clearly and scientifically proving in Marvel 616 continuity that mutants are indisputably the next chain in human evolution. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of "blah blah blah" elitist crap.

That said, all semantics aside, it can be safely said that Steve Rogers is an enhanced human in every regard ... strength, speed, senses, healing, intellect ... all have been shown to be significantly beyond what any top human athlete could ever dream of achieving.

Even if mutants are a higher evolutionary stage than Mankind, it does not mean they are the only possible evolution path the race can take. Just like how other life forms are a result of evolution (mutations) from common ancestors, Captain America could represent one Path of evolution (him being on the brink of a new branch of evolution) while those with the X-Gene represent another path (them possibly being just over the brink of a new species).

The problem with the X gene is that is unstable, even if the gene is passed on, it seems to manifest itself differently in the offspring. I'd think there would need to be some sort of stability (as in common traits passed on from generation to generation) before they could be considered a new race, because the way I see it, each individual mutant represents a distinct branch, and we would not classify an individual as a new race.

That's a possibility as well...Captain Americacould just be along a different branch of Humanity...I'd still say that he's more likely the first example of that New branch of Humanity's Evolution rather than the End point of any.

What you say about The X-gene applies to Cap as well though...he's only one man with a certain set of abilities that put him beyond the rest of humanity...there's nothing other than Brubaker's statement that ties him in with Human Evolution. As I said above, Spidey, The Fantastic Four, etc. are also all enhanced humans with no ties at all to evolution. It takes nothing away from the fact that Captain America does perform at a level beyond that of regular humans...but then again...so does Batman...and he's not enhanced in any way at all.

#143 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: you're not getting attacked I just don't understand where you're going with this. The point was Steve is stronger than a peak human, simple as that. I don't understand what else you are trying to prove. The whole"evolved" term has nothing to do with the main point.

It's like my family asking me what's in the bowl, and I try it with my brother and I say "it's ice cream, taste like vanilla bean" then my brother says "it taste like french vanilla actually." Does this change the fact that it's ice cream? no. So you dont agree with the term evolved, butdoes that change the main point that hes above peak human? No.

And I'd say it's more like you looking at a Cat and saying "It's a Lion". Just because someone has enhanced abilities it doesn't mean they are the end all be all of human evolution.

That's a terrible analogy. I don't want to address this again. Ignore the EVOLUTION part. That has nothing to do with the main point. For the last time. The main point is that Captain America is not the peak of human he is a enhanced human. Fair enough you don't like the term evolution being thrown around, fair enough, but even if you replace that word with something else, Captain America regardless is a enhanced human.

It's actually a much better analogy then yours. Your analogy is about your brother making a fuss about semantics...but that's not what I'm doing here. Mine is about there being a real difference between a House Cat and a Lion...just like there is a real difference between an "enhanced human" and "The final stage of Human evolution". Spider-Man is also an enhanced Human...he is not the end of human evolution. Same goes with the Fantastic Four...and literally hundreds of other Super-Heroes and Villains. Not a single one of them have anything to do with evolution. So, while I respect Mr. Brubaker and his numerous contributions to the Marvel Universe in general and Captain America in specific, he is wrong about Captain America being the end point of Human evolution.

The thing I wanted to discuss was the Evolution statement..and before you started making a big deal about it..some of us were having a good discussion about it...if you don't want to join in on that discussion...fine...don't. If other people want to talk about it...Cool..let's do that. You said you created this thread so people could actually discuss stuff and you keep on getting in the way of that.

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50 plus years trying to replicate the SSS?"

He never said specifically the word "evolution." And it's really up to interpretation. To back Brubaker up, for all we know he can mean the peak of Homo Sapien potential before our genetic structure is so vastly different from our ancestors that we're considered a separate sub species of humans where homo sapiens idaltu proceeded us and the homo rudolfensis proceeded them and etc and etc.

or

We could be looking too into it, giving Brubaker a hard time and not understanding his point is that Captain America is not an Olympic athlete but an enhanced human.

Feel free to discuss evolution and how you want to interpret it, but when it comes to Captain America and the purpose of me bringing up the misconception that he can only perform at olympic levels, it has nothing to do with the word evolution and where it ends. That is all.

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#144 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6615 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

Captain America is an enhanced human. Enhanced via a serum. That's it. Not peak, not Olympic level, he's enhanced beyond human capability. Not sure why all this talk of 'evolution' is involved as Brubaker was obviously using it to impress a point more so than he was indicating that Cap might in any way, shape or form represent the next stage in human evolution. A perfected human in its penultimate form perhaps ...

And Hank stating that he believes mutants would take the place of humans in a few generations does not change what I stated. And given the effect the mutation has on some poor souls, deforming them beyond all measure, driving others insane, I'm not sure it shouldn't be considered a genetic defect more than a gift.

#145 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Shawnbaby:

Captain America is an enhanced human. Enhanced via a serum. That's it. Not peak, not Olympic level, he's enhanced beyond human capability. Not sure why all this talk of 'evolution' is involved as Brubaker was obviously using it to impress a point more so than he was indicating that Cap might in any way, shape or form represent the next stage in human evolution. A perfected human in its penultimate form perhaps ...

And Hank stating that he believes mutants would take the place of humans in a few generations does not change what I stated. And given the effect the mutation has on some poor souls, deforming them beyond all measure, driving others insane, I'm not sure it shouldn't be considered a genetic defect more than a gift.

What you said is you would like to see Hank show that Mutants are an Evolutionary branch. He did that...he showed that within a few generations Humanity would be extinct and replaced by mutants. Hank McCoy is the world's Foremost expert on Genetics and Mutation. Now, obviously when Wanda did her thing that changed the whole deal.

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: you're not getting attacked I just don't understand where you're going with this. The point was Steve is stronger than a peak human, simple as that. I don't understand what else you are trying to prove. The whole"evolved" term has nothing to do with the main point.

It's like my family asking me what's in the bowl, and I try it with my brother and I say "it's ice cream, taste like vanilla bean" then my brother says "it taste like french vanilla actually." Does this change the fact that it's ice cream? no. So you dont agree with the term evolved, butdoes that change the main point that hes above peak human? No.

And I'd say it's more like you looking at a Cat and saying "It's a Lion". Just because someone has enhanced abilities it doesn't mean they are the end all be all of human evolution.

That's a terrible analogy. I don't want to address this again. Ignore the EVOLUTION part. That has nothing to do with the main point. For the last time. The main point is that Captain America is not the peak of human he is a enhanced human. Fair enough you don't like the term evolution being thrown around, fair enough, but even if you replace that word with something else, Captain America regardless is a enhanced human.

It's actually a much better analogy then yours. Your analogy is about your brother making a fuss about semantics...but that's not what I'm doing here. Mine is about there being a real difference between a House Cat and a Lion...just like there is a real difference between an "enhanced human" and "The final stage of Human evolution". Spider-Man is also an enhanced Human...he is not the end of human evolution. Same goes with the Fantastic Four...and literally hundreds of other Super-Heroes and Villains. Not a single one of them have anything to do with evolution. So, while I respect Mr. Brubaker and his numerous contributions to the Marvel Universe in general and Captain America in specific, he is wrong about Captain America being the end point of Human evolution.

The thing I wanted to discuss was the Evolution statement..and before you started making a big deal about it..some of us were having a good discussion about it...if you don't want to join in on that discussion...fine...don't. If other people want to talk about it...Cool..let's do that. You said you created this thread so people could actually discuss stuff and you keep on getting in the way of that.

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50 plus years trying to replicate the SSS?"

He never said specifically the word "evolution." And it's really up to interpretation. To back Brubaker up, for all we know he can mean the peak of Homo Sapien potential before our genetic structure is so vastly different from our ancestors that we're considered a separate sub species of humans where homo sapiens idaltu proceeded us and the homo rudolfensis proceeded them and etc and etc.

or

We could be looking too into it, giving Brubaker a hard time and not understanding his point is that Captain America is not an Olympic athlete but an enhanced human.

Feel free to discuss evolution and how you want to interpret it, but when it comes to Captain America and the purpose of me bringing up the misconception that he can only perform at olympic levels, it has nothing to do with the word evolution and where it ends. That is all.

And as I said before...that is only one writer's opinion of Captain America. It is not proof of anything. If the next Writer comes along with the understanding that Captain America can only perform at Olympic Levels...that will be the new paradigm. Obviously Captain America has feats that put him beyond Olympic Levels...most Street Level Heroes do as well though. Batman and Daredevil, who Brubaker references in his quote, also have feats that put them beyond olympic level. All that proves is that Comic Books have a very different idea of what a "Peak Human" is. Cap dodges Bullets...but so do Daredevil and Batman. Cap heals quickly...so do Batman and Daredevil. Cap can bench Press 1000 lbs...So can Batman. I can't remember seeing Daredevil do the same but I have seen him using a loaded Barbell like it was a Staff and then tossing it across a room. Daredevil is also enhanced...but not physically...Batman has no enhancements at all and yet they have both been seen performing feats on an equivalent level to Cap.

#146 Edited by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

@drgnx said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Shawnbaby:

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

Only according to other mutants. Just because someone like Cyclops or Magneto state they are the next stage, a so-called 'superior' species, far more evolved than common man, doesn't make it so.

They have (oft times extremely odd and undeniably undesirable) abilities from a mutated 'X' gene. They are mutants.

I'd like to see a showing with either Hank, High Evolutionary, or some other authority type on the matter, clearly and scientifically proving in Marvel 616 continuity that mutants are indisputably the next chain in human evolution. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of "blah blah blah" elitist crap.

That said, all semantics aside, it can be safely said that Steve Rogers is an enhanced human in every regard ... strength, speed, senses, healing, intellect ... all have been shown to be significantly beyond what any top human athlete could ever dream of achieving.

Even if mutants are a higher evolutionary stage than Mankind, it does not mean they are the only possible evolution path the race can take. Just like how other life forms are a result of evolution (mutations) from common ancestors, Captain America could represent one Path of evolution (him being on the brink of a new branch of evolution) while those with the X-Gene represent another path (them possibly being just over the brink of a new species).

The problem with the X gene is that is unstable, even if the gene is passed on, it seems to manifest itself differently in the offspring. I'd think there would need to be some sort of stability (as in common traits passed on from generation to generation) before they could be considered a new race, because the way I see it, each individual mutant represents a distinct branch, and we would not classify an individual as a new race.

That's a possibility as well...Captain Americacould just be along a different branch of Humanity...I'd still say that he's more likely the first example of that New branch of Humanity's Evolution rather than the End point of any.

What you say about The X-gene applies to Cap as well though...he's only one man with a certain set of abilities that put him beyond the rest of humanity...there's nothing other than Brubaker's statement that ties him in with Human Evolution. As I said above, Spidey, The Fantastic Four, etc. are also all enhanced humans with no ties at all to evolution. It takes nothing away from the fact that Captain America does perform at a level beyond that of regular humans...but then again...so does Batman...and he's not enhanced in any way at all.

I think the argument is that Captain America was specifically enhanced to in a state of what humans would/could be in a further state of natural evolution (yes in itself is subjective, but is not "my" argument). I certainly wouldn't argue that this means its a final state of evolution even on that premise, but that is not the argument I see being emphasized. The thing about Batman Vs Cap A. is someone posted a running feat Batman could not replicate, so there is a difference.

#147 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@drgnx said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Shawnbaby:

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

Only according to other mutants. Just because someone like Cyclops or Magneto state they are the next stage, a so-called 'superior' species, far more evolved than common man, doesn't make it so.

They have (oft times extremely odd and undeniably undesirable) abilities from a mutated 'X' gene. They are mutants.

I'd like to see a showing with either Hank, High Evolutionary, or some other authority type on the matter, clearly and scientifically proving in Marvel 616 continuity that mutants are indisputably the next chain in human evolution. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of "blah blah blah" elitist crap.

That said, all semantics aside, it can be safely said that Steve Rogers is an enhanced human in every regard ... strength, speed, senses, healing, intellect ... all have been shown to be significantly beyond what any top human athlete could ever dream of achieving.

Even if mutants are a higher evolutionary stage than Mankind, it does not mean they are the only possible evolution path the race can take. Just like how other life forms are a result of evolution (mutations) from common ancestors, Captain America could represent one Path of evolution (him being on the brink of a new branch of evolution) while those with the X-Gene represent another path (them possibly being just over the brink of a new species).

The problem with the X gene is that is unstable, even if the gene is passed on, it seems to manifest itself differently in the offspring. I'd think there would need to be some sort of stability (as in common traits passed on from generation to generation) before they could be considered a new race, because the way I see it, each individual mutant represents a distinct branch, and we would not classify an individual as a new race.

That's a possibility as well...Captain Americacould just be along a different branch of Humanity...I'd still say that he's more likely the first example of that New branch of Humanity's Evolution rather than the End point of any.

What you say about The X-gene applies to Cap as well though...he's only one man with a certain set of abilities that put him beyond the rest of humanity...there's nothing other than Brubaker's statement that ties him in with Human Evolution. As I said above, Spidey, The Fantastic Four, etc. are also all enhanced humans with no ties at all to evolution. It takes nothing away from the fact that Captain America does perform at a level beyond that of regular humans...but then again...so does Batman...and he's not enhanced in any way at all.

I think the argument is that Captain America was specifically enhanced to in a state of what humans would/could be in a further state of natural evolution (yes in itself is subjective). I certainly wouldn't argue that this means its a final state of evolution even on that premise, but that is not the argument. The thing about Batman Vs Cap A. is someone posted a running feat Batman could not replicate, so there is a difference.

I agree...that whole "Mile a minute" run thing is pretty impressive...and Batman doesn't have any feats where he specifically says "I can run "X"mph" and then is shown to do just that. My point is more that Batman also has feats that would place him beyond the abilities of modern day humans without any kind of physical enhancements whatsoever. I would not say "Batman and Captain America are exactly the Same". All I have been saying is that a statement from one writer of Captain America is not usable as evidence any more than an entry on the Captain America Wiki. We've all seen what happens when someone tries to bring up Wikis as evidence...they get laughed at, insulted, or just completely ignored.

#148 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: You are nitpicking again. That was posted by Ed Brubaker at CBR because people were saying Batman and Captain America were physically equal. All Ed Brubaker wanted to do was clear the air on a few things.

1. Everyone says that Captain America is just an Olympic Athlete

2. The SSS only made him a very physically fit human.

3. Captain America cannot perform no greater than current olympic athletes.

Again, all Ed Brubaker wanted to express was that Captain America is a enhanced human, he is physically stronger than Batman, Daredevil and Punisher regardless of what feats they produce, Captain America will always be stronger. He furthers this by saying why else would dozens of people try and replicate a SSS for 50 years if it just gave them a peak human. It was not his goal or purpose to point out anything about human evolution, which again could be left to interpretation as to what he meant.

"If the next Writer comes along with the understanding that Captain America can only perform at Olympic Levels...that will be the new paradigm."

Yes, and that is why Ed Brubaker referenced two other writers on the top of his head that showed him outperforming others that could be considered olympic athletes on panel.

"Daredevil is also enhanced...but not physically...Batman has no enhancements at all and yet they have both been seen performing feats on an equivalent level to Cap"

Besides the scan of DD sprinting and Captain America outsprinting him, I have never seen Batman nor have I seen DD sprint and run at 60 MPH for 5 minutes.

He's done it on another instance where he was being chased by giant mechanical birds (don't ask, silly story) and they were said to run at 60 MPH+.

Where has DD or Batman survived a bullet to the head?

Yes, DD and Batman have done impossible feats for most humans to do, but Brubakers point again is that Steve is physically above them. Plain and simple.

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#149 Posted by jashro44 (25426 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby:

I agree...that whole "Mile a minute" run thing is pretty impressive...and Batman doesn't have any feats where he specifically says "I can run "X"mph" and then is shown to do just that. My point is more that Batman also has feats that would place him beyond the abilities of modern day humans without any kind of physical enhancements whatsoever. I would not say "Batman and Captain America are exactly the Same". All I have been saying is that a statement from one writer of Captain America is not usable as evidence any more than an entry on the Captain America Wiki. We've all seen what happens when someone tries to bring up Wikis as evidence...they get laughed at, insulted, or just completely ignored.

I disagree. Ed Burbaker wrote cap for 8 years and he has written a good chunk of caps modern stuff if I'm not mistaken. It shows how has been written to a higher standard then your average peak human has in recent showings.

#150 Posted by SlimJ87D (10745 posts) - - Show Bio
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