#51 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7611 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Mr_Ingenuity: Thanks, I have those scans right in front of me, and those were the ones I was about to post. he blitzes through and rips every machine apart before the people a few feet behind him can see what is going on. This is indestructible Hulk #1

I'll try to have input even though it will not equate to much.

I have not purchased the comic yet so I wouldn't know the context. But moving at a blur seems like street level speed feat in the least.

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#52 Posted by RudeBomberBoy01 (1840 posts) - - Show Bio

This is AWESOME! Much more better than the last one.

And is it true Juggernaut can falcon punch realities?

#53 Posted by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Mr_Ingenuity: Thanks, I have those scans right in front of me, and those were the ones I was about to post. he blitzes through and rips every machine apart before the people a few feet behind him can see what is going on. This is indestructible Hulk #1

I'll try to have input even though it will not equate to much.

I have not purchased the comic yet so I wouldn't know the context. But moving at a blur seems like street level speed feat in the least.

that's very true, and one of the reasons I haven't posted that scan since it doesn't state how fast exactly he is moving. But it does show he's not slow as anyone thinks.

#54 Posted by laflux (16191 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

Captain America is NOT just a peak human. He is what humans will be one day when we evolve and he is at the peak of that.

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

"Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph."

Here, this is what Brubaker was talking about.

And finally this is Ed Brubakers writing here where he clearly puts it out there in his own dialogue, no artist is determining an obscure feat here. Cap is clearly running 5 miles in 5 minutes.

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can."

This is very good. I actually used the same logic in and CaV debate, with the same scans and quotes. So good on you :D

#55 Edited by Dextersinister (6197 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Your still giving me real world examples of how the Hulk is capable of superspeed when they don't apply, if it worked to the letter the vibrations from some of those punches would be enough to kill some of the opponents.In their universe what he does is considered a feat of strength, if he where to throw a punch many characters with simply peak human refelxes could avoid it while it was in mid swing where if it worked the way you said it does they wouldn't have time to react.

The Hulk is not the same example people as unlike Cap they where ok with what he does because it's within his powerset superspeed was not needed to pull it off because as I've said to you a few times before how it works is not important. Your examples would not be classified as comic book feats of speed they are comic book feats of strength.

I am fine with Cap is long as they admit he is superhuman and stop with the peak human label which is the same one they use for badass normal's. If I where to apply as much real world thought into Cap as you do the Hulk then I would call bull on this idea that his muscles are the peak of what humans will become as that's not how evolution works. You will not have 2 equally built humans and one being faster, stronger and having more endurance as real world physiology doesn't short change you, you pay for advantages either it be with increased size which comes with it's own disadvantages or a need to eat more or in are case a smaller mouth that has trouble containing all the teeth we have because of are larger cranium.

#56 Edited by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dextersinister:  
 
This is in plane site and dialogue. It has NOTHING to do with real world. It's a plot in the comic, the artist shows it and the writer writes it. 
 
A shaker device would take 40 hours to shake this mixture. These shakers shake 100s of times faster than the human hand. Hulk is able to shake his hand so fast that it takes minutes.   
 
@RudeBomberBoy01 said:

This is AWESOME! Much more better than the last one.

And is it true Juggernaut can falcon punch realities?

You're going to have to show the scans for it. He can transverse dimensions that's all I know. But he lost those abilities at some point when he gave up magic or something like that. 
#57 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@SlimJ87D said:

I've been meaning to do this thread for a long long time, then I saw someone else do it and got excited but it wasn't done right. It actually was upsetting as no one was "allowed" to discuss, share or debate with one another.

It was done how i felt it should be done. I didn't have a problem with people discussing the feats mentioned. I had a problem with people using faulty physics and logic to try and wank their way into saying a feat is valid. People were debating on whether a moon could be considered a planet, just to say Superman could destroy a planet. Some users lied about feats and people were discussing things that never happened in the first place. One guy argued that picoseconds aren't sued to measure distance, another argued it did, and somehow they both thought they were agreeing with each other. Not exactly the type of productive debating you're trying to imply was happening. Which is why I asked for it to be locked. I wish your thread the best of luck.

You've got a great idea, but You can't limit people in this way in debate thread. When I've said that You should have made a blog I wasn't joking. There were people who were making respect threads in blogs and they were pretty popular.

Why can't I? It solves so many problems. Despite my pleas people were debating in the thread anyway. One of the longest debates were about Superman and the black hole feats. I informed everyone that in one instance it wasn't a black hole and superman accelerated to light speed only to escape the gravity. The other was about a mini black hole. I informed people that mini black holes are very different from astrophysical black holes; miniature black holes could have the event horizon the size of an atom and wouldn't be able to suck superman in. People continued using these arguments anyway. Some users said one thing in my thread and the complete opposite in another. People were lying about feats and getting debates started. Some changed their arguments to the complete opposite of views they held in another thread. Some didn't know the science behind the things they were saying. You cant have a productive debate this way. Who would have seen this blog? I didn't have any followers.

While I do agree that it would solve problem, I can tell you easily why you can't limit people...

...because they won't listen to you at all.

It's as simple as that. People do not like feeling censored; the instant you try to "enforce" your own rules in a public thread in a public forum...well, it all goes downhill. One can argue that it's illogical and impractical...but...eh, that's the way we (and by we I mean people all over the world) are. What you did, as in the thread itself, was a great idea; poorly executed IMO, but a great idea.

#58 Posted by Scarlet_Spyder (119 posts) - - Show Bio

I have one I'd like to see discussed, but I don't have the scans and I am sure someone does. The whole, pre-52 Deathstroke tags speedsters bit.

I have seen a scan where Kid Flash seemed to be running around toying with Slade, and Slade to me looks to be using that calculating talent of his to calculate where KF would travel to and then blasted some ground in front of KF, not actually tagging him directly.

The other scan is where he blasts I think it was Wally who for some reason was on the ground and looking the other direction talking to a cop, then DS runs around a corner, and sets up his staff, which Wally then runs around the corner and trips over.

Both instances that I have seen show some amount of setup/prep/calculation against speedsters not going all out, and are less about him actually pulling out some amazing amount of speed and reflex to actually tag a speedster.

So, can someone prove or disprove this? I am curious to learn the truth of these "feats".

#59 Posted by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jayfournines: That's not the reason. There are rules that over rule all rules regardless of what you write in your OP. Those rules are the stickies.  
 
You can't make a topic here, which is a debate forum, and tell people they are not allowed to debate. The stickies say we're suppose to debate and learn and educate one another here. 
#60 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Jayfournines: That's not the reason. There are rules that over rule all rules regardless of what you write in your OP. Those rules are the stickies. You can't make a topic here, which is a debate forum, and tell people they are not allowed to debate. The stickies say we're suppose to debate and learn and educate one another here.

which is exactly my point, people don't like being censored when it comes to their opinion; doing so makes you -gasp- a nazi.

#61 Posted by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio
@Scarlet_Spyder said:

I have one I'd like to see discussed, but I don't have the scans and I am sure someone does. The whole, pre-52 Deathstroke tags speedsters bit.

I have seen a scan where Kid Flash seemed to be running around toying with Slade, and Slade to me looks to be using that calculating talent of his to calculate where KF would travel to and then blasted some ground in front of KF, not actually tagging him directly.

The other scan is where he blasts I think it was Wally who for some reason was on the ground and looking the other direction talking to a cop, then DS runs around a corner, and sets up his staff, which Wally then runs around the corner and trips over.

Both instances that I have seen show some amount of setup/prep/calculation against speedsters not going all out, and are less about him actually pulling out some amazing amount of speed and reflex to actually tag a speedster.

So, can someone prove or disprove this? I am curious to learn the truth of these "feats".

This one is easy. It's all PIS. The Flashes are only using 1/10 of their abilities. There is absolutely no way Deathstroke should be able to tag or even if he did, harm the Flashes. The Speed force is suppose to increase their durability, that's hwy Wally can take a hit from Mogul, and it's suppose to place them in a time where people are motionless and not even moving. They're like statues.  
 
 
 
 
 
So it doesn't make sense unless the Flashes are not speeding up their minds but just running. And lowering their durability down. 
#62 Posted by Scarlet_Spyder (119 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: That was pretty much my thought on things, but I just wanted to see if there was some bit of insight that I was missing. Thanks for the response=)

#63 Posted by beatboks1 (7249 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Nice that one of your first is BA's speed limitations ( a big bane of contention for me)

Captain Marvel Wields magic that's why he can hurt Superman

Cap ( note Cap not Lord ) does not wield magic in any way, he never has. he is magically powered and his strength, speed etc comes from magic but when he strikes Superman it is just with a fist that has strength (granted magically). In every battle they have had it has only been a strength contest which waxes and wans as to possible victor.

No mention in any of these of his punches have magic or more potency because of it. For the record the arm wrestle with Supes winning is when all three Marvel family were powered up (meaning Cap was 1/3 power). They were even until the page before when Mary and Freddy went Marvel.

The only feats of Cap ever using magic are from non canon children's line books like Shazam and the monster Society of Evil.

The only magical attack Cap has is to summon the magic lightning that transforms him. Something he isn't likely to do against Superman unless the situation is extremely dire. He does after all have the wisdom of Solomon and would know that making him ortal would put him at risk against someone with Supe's speed.

Black Adam and Captain Marvel are not the same power level

I have seen in so many threads where the feats for Black Adam are offered to debate for Captain marvel. Contrary to popular belief BA get's his powers from a completely different source to Captain marvel. Yes the magic of Shazam activates them but courtesy of a deal done by Shazam's daughter Lady Blaze with the evil elder god Set his powers come from completely different god's

It was her hope to pervert her fathers new champion to evil which didn't initially happen as she'd hoped (it took a lot more time).

Black Adam as a rule is stronger and has greater physical and mental durability. Cap has greater speed and endurance. Cap has Wisdom Ba has Knowledge. In a battle between the two it's usually Cap's endurance that allows him to keep on taking the punishment BA dishes out and keep coming back until he is eventually victorious. His endurance is such that he can usually keep on coming even when he's at 1/3 power because the other Marvels are powered up. That in and of itself is another proof that BA's power source is different as his power level isn't lowered each time another draws on the power of Shazam.

#64 Posted by Shawnbaby (10799 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

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#65 Posted by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio
@beatboks1: But does BA strike with magic?  Because SBP comments on the magic not hurting him. 
 
 
 
This is similar to Thor's hammer strikes where the artist displays them clearly. But then you have the comment from the writer as well. 
 
For the record, I showed proof that Thor's hammer strikes strike with magic amp, like they are enchanted. So if the Hammer ever hit Superman it would hurt like hell. Check it out a few pages back.  
 
@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D: I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

Not much I can say besides just go with what Ed Brubaker, a writer for DC and Marvel and Cap's writer for 8 years says. Cap is the peak of human potential, what humans can one day be, not what they are right now. 
#66 Posted by beatboks1 (7249 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: BA , is directly powered by the bod's his powers come from (unlike Cap) so even Shazam is limited in how he can restrict him as was Lord Marvel. from the God Zehuti he does get knowledge including knowledge of magic, and he has used magic in the past (most notably to return his dead love Isis to him). I haven't seen many instances of him using a "magic strike" (most notably absent in all his fights with Superman) but he is capable of that and more with magic. One of the god's that powers him also gives him resistance to magic and to mental assaults (TP etc)

#67 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

There's something that always bothers me with the "magic hurts Superman because he is weak to it" debate. While magic does indeed hurt Clark, doesn't it hurt him like it would any other being with his level of durability? I mean, Hulk doesn't have any magic soaking abilities, but whenever he is hit by it, it only affects him as it would anyone else with his level of power

Does this apply to Clark as well? I have heard many times that Superman is not weak to magic but simply vulnerable to it (keep in mind i'm talking about DCU Superman and not N52 Supes).

#68 Posted by dondave (37919 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines: He's not weak to it but it affects him like it would affect any normal human being

#69 Posted by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@Jayfournines: He's not weak to it but it affects him like it would affect any normal human being

i keep hearing this but what does that mean? if there was a magic spell to transform a person into a frog he would turn into a frog?

#70 Posted by YoungJustice (6862 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Just saying, I only see the Specter bat kick thing whenever there is a Batman vs (Living Tribunal, TOAA. etc.). I dont think anyone (But N00bs) use it as an actual feat.

#71 Edited by dondave (37919 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Yes, it would work on him thats why magic is often cited as weakness because it effects him

#72 Edited by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@Dextersinister: Fond this scan. It proves nothing (just 1 feat) but will appear in the battle form no the less.

@Dextersinister:

Okay, while driving I remembered an interview and it explains why Hulk sped blitzes here. This is an interview with the writer and I believe artist about the new series which this scan comes from.

""One of the things that Leinil's artwork made me realize is we tend to think of the Hulk as this lumbering brute who stomps around when he's angry," said Waid. "I think that's because a lot of us grew up with the Lou Ferrigno TV show, but those are giant muscles on that guy. The Hulk is fast. … Leinil does such a good job at capturing the Hulk as a force of nature." Waid said that Yu was drawing the Hulk in a way he felt nobody else ever has."

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=41812

So pretty much they are expressing that the Hulk is not just a giant Brute but rather he is fast indeed. How fast, I don't know. But it would make it more consistent and more sense on why he is able to perform the feats I listed, including the vibration of the mixture.

#73 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@SlimJ87D: Yes, it would work on him thats why magic is often cited as weakness because it effects him

but a spell like that would affect everyone else who has no magic resistance. So should we classify it as a universal weakness? Batman or Spiderman would also suffer the same fate but no one calls them "weak" to magic.

#74 Posted by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

@dondave said:

@SlimJ87D: Yes, it would work on him thats why magic is often cited as weakness because it effects him

but a spell like that would affect everyone else who has no magic resistance. So should we classify it as a universal weakness? Batman or Spiderman would also suffer the same fate but no one calls them "weak" to magic.

Superman has been classified as having a weakness to magic before.

I don't think it drains him or anything. It just hurts him more than normal attacks.

#75 Edited by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see anything about thor so I am just going to copy and paste killemalls post in this thread as well.

I know people tend to make a big deal out of it, but fact is its perfectly in character for Silver Surfer to not use his speed in combat. I honestly cant remember anyone failing to actually tag Surfer when they have fought.

Starting with a fight Surfer actually won

Silver Surfer, Volume 3, Issue 65: Reptly prime has aboslutely no trouble tagging Surfer, all his blast easily tag sufer as well, and we have 2 confirmation that Surfer can react faster than nanosecond (light speed) , so do we assume Reptly (whose speed in marvel bio is 5) and his energy blast travel much faster than the speed of light?

Silver Surfer, Volume 1, Issue 14: Silver Surfer fights Spiderman, and he doesnt seem to have a problem tagging Surfer either with both his kicks and his webs, and i we know for certain neither Spiderman, nor his kicks or his webs are even as fast as Superman, let alone faster.

Silver Surfer volume 3 , 125 - Hulk has no problem tagging surfer

I could just go on, Silver Surfer has fought Fantastic Four 4 times and they have managed to tag him pretty much every encounter, Silver Surfer has fought Superskrull twice and he has managed to tag him both encounters, being tagged and not to use his speed to is advantage is perfectly in character for Silver Surfer.

Furthermore, the reason i believe Thor is slow are based on these showings

1. Blitz by Mongoose (The Mighty Thor 391), who cant even tag spiderman

.2. Blitz by Mongoose again (The Mighty Thor 408)

3. Captain America commenting on Thor's Lack of speed (while the person on the scan is Erik Masterson, read Captain America's comment on the right, second last panel) - Thor 447

4. Blitz by Spiderman (this is Erik Masterson) - The Mighty Thor 448

5. Fight with Wolverine - Thor himself admits Wolverine is faster than him, fourth scan last panel, fifth scan first panel.

6. Chulain (a footsoldier of Mikaboshi, someone with no superspeed whatsoever to talk about) comments on how slow Thor is before he KOs him with one bast (Thor Blood Oath 05) - read second scan, second last and last panel.

We could always try and drag Thor's decade old feats of apparent microsecond reaction time, shown against an opponent with absolutely no superspeed so to speak of, catching his own hammer which he can subconsciously control to say Thor is fast, problem is he has consistently been shown to be a slow brute rather than some fast nimble guy.

#76 Posted by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: That's my take on it. I think they just introduced that to SA Superman as a plot device because the guy was just too damn powerful and began to not be that interesting.

#77 Posted by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@jashro44: That's my take on it. I think they just introduced that to SA Superman as a plot device because the guy was just too damn powerful and began to not be that interesting.

Pretty much.

#78 Posted by joeagentofhand1 (4362 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Jayfournines said:

@dondave said:

@SlimJ87D: Yes, it would work on him thats why magic is often cited as weakness because it effects him

but a spell like that would affect everyone else who has no magic resistance. So should we classify it as a universal weakness? Batman or Spiderman would also suffer the same fate but no one calls them "weak" to magic.

Superman has been classified as having a weakness to magic before.

I don't think it drains him or anything. It just hurts him more than normal attacks.

In Kingdom Come it is said that magic affects him like any normal human(KC Superman though does gain invulnerability to magic). An example is when he cuts himself with Wonder Woman's sword.

#79 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Could you spoilertag and title the Killemall post you pasted? Thanks a bunch.

#80 Posted by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

@joeagentofhand1: More or less what I said. It hurts him more than regular attacks. Doesn't do much else to my understanding.

@Esquire: Done. Sorry about that.

#81 Posted by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio

Well the spoiler tags are used just to make it easier to spot a debunking or misconception.

#82 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7611 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: You also might want to make a index it was a great idea from the last thread. My two cents.

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#83 Posted by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity: I'm waiting for it to fill up a little bit.

#84 Posted by Shawnbaby (10799 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D: I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

Not much I can say besides just go with what Ed Brubaker, a writer for DC and Marvel and Cap's writer for 8 years says. Cap is the peak of human potential, what humans can one day be, not what they are right now.

I never put too much faith in what any one writer says. The "Peak of Human Potential" theory is just Ed Brubakers Theory and that's how he writes Cap...If the next writer comes on and says "Cap is just Peak Human" and writes from that perspective...than all those rules change. Cap should be judged by Feats...and his feats show that he is certainly more than Peak Human...but they don't show anything to represent "The Peak of Human Potential". It just seems silly to throw around this idea he's the epitome of max human evolutionary potential when he's still physically inferior to someone like Wolverine.

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#85 Posted by ComicStooge (13059 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D: I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

Not much I can say besides just go with what Ed Brubaker, a writer for DC and Marvel and Cap's writer for 8 years says. Cap is the peak of human potential, what humans can one day be, not what they are right now.

I never put too much faith in what any one writer says. The "Peak of Human Potential" theory is just Ed Brubakers Theory and that's how he writes Cap...If the next writer comes on and says "Cap is just Peak Human" and writes from that perspective...than all those rules change. Cap should be judged by Feats...and his feats show that he is certainly more than Peak Human...but they don't show anything to represent "The Peak of Human Potential". It just seems silly to throw around this idea he's the epitome of max human evolutionary potential when he's still physically inferior to someone like Wolverine.

Wolverine's a Mutant, that makes him non-human, right?

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#86 Posted by Shawnbaby (10799 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComicStooge said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D: I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

Not much I can say besides just go with what Ed Brubaker, a writer for DC and Marvel and Cap's writer for 8 years says. Cap is the peak of human potential, what humans can one day be, not what they are right now.

I never put too much faith in what any one writer says. The "Peak of Human Potential" theory is just Ed Brubakers Theory and that's how he writes Cap...If the next writer comes on and says "Cap is just Peak Human" and writes from that perspective...than all those rules change. Cap should be judged by Feats...and his feats show that he is certainly more than Peak Human...but they don't show anything to represent "The Peak of Human Potential". It just seems silly to throw around this idea he's the epitome of max human evolutionary potential when he's still physically inferior to someone like Wolverine.

Wolverine's a Mutant, that makes him non-human, right?

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

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#87 Posted by ComicStooge (13059 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby said:

@ComicStooge said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D: I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

Not much I can say besides just go with what Ed Brubaker, a writer for DC and Marvel and Cap's writer for 8 years says. Cap is the peak of human potential, what humans can one day be, not what they are right now.

I never put too much faith in what any one writer says. The "Peak of Human Potential" theory is just Ed Brubakers Theory and that's how he writes Cap...If the next writer comes on and says "Cap is just Peak Human" and writes from that perspective...than all those rules change. Cap should be judged by Feats...and his feats show that he is certainly more than Peak Human...but they don't show anything to represent "The Peak of Human Potential". It just seems silly to throw around this idea he's the epitome of max human evolutionary potential when he's still physically inferior to someone like Wolverine.

Wolverine's a Mutant, that makes him non-human, right?

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

Huh. So Cap is the highest possible point of human evolution, without being a Mutant?

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#88 Edited by Shawnbaby (10799 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComicStooge said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@ComicStooge said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@SlimJ87D: I don't really like the "Peak of Human Evolution" explanation. Evolution is an ongoing process and is quite often triggered by environmental changes. Its impossible to say what the peak of human evolution could be because there might not actually be a "peak". That being said, Cap is clearly a cut above most other Comic Book Peak Humans. My own personal opinion is that what Cap is is like an "Overclocked" Peak Human. Essentially, he's running the same Hardware as everyone else...but all his dials are set to 11.

Not much I can say besides just go with what Ed Brubaker, a writer for DC and Marvel and Cap's writer for 8 years says. Cap is the peak of human potential, what humans can one day be, not what they are right now.

I never put too much faith in what any one writer says. The "Peak of Human Potential" theory is just Ed Brubakers Theory and that's how he writes Cap...If the next writer comes on and says "Cap is just Peak Human" and writes from that perspective...than all those rules change. Cap should be judged by Feats...and his feats show that he is certainly more than Peak Human...but they don't show anything to represent "The Peak of Human Potential". It just seems silly to throw around this idea he's the epitome of max human evolutionary potential when he's still physically inferior to someone like Wolverine.

Wolverine's a Mutant, that makes him non-human, right?

Mutants are the Next phase of Human Evolution.

Huh. So Cap is the highest possible point of human evolution, without being a Mutant?

Which would mean he is not the highest possible point of human evolution.

This is why I prefer my "Overclocked" Theory...he's running on the same Hardware as regular Humans...he just has all his settings tweaked out and part of what the Super Soldier Serum does is to be the Cooling System which keeps his hardware from burning out.

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#89 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: @ComicStooge:

Perhaps, Captain America represents peak Homo Sapiens, in M.U., where as mutants are Homo Superior. After Humans evolve past a certain point, we won't be Homo Sapiens anymore, Captain might be where they draw the line in M.U. without the enhancement of genetic mutations (DC seems to draw theirs at Icon). Humans evolved from something and will perhaps evolve to something else, the end of our race does not mean the end of our evolution tree.

#90 Posted by SlimJ87D (10045 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shawnbaby: you are just nitpicking at a term a writer used and have strayed away from the main point. Captain America is above what we currently define as the peak of man. It's as simple as that. You said it yourself, the feats support it. There's really nothing else besides not agreeing with a "term", a writer used to describe something he and others have displayed right before our eyes. what I'm trying to say is that it adds nothing to this thread.

#91 Posted by Oni_Bane (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@beatboks1: But does BA strike with magic? Because SBP comments on the magic not hurting him.

I believe he does strike with magic. The whole SBP tanking 5 solid punches and shrugging then off is PIS when Martian Manhunter, and Superboy hit him, he feels it. Black Adam is just as strong as MMH and stronger then Superboy. So why did they make BA look like a complete jobber in Infinite Crisis? I'm not saying he should have won the fight, but to say it tickles is a complete contradiction to everything else that had been written on Black Adam.

#92 Posted by Saren (25694 posts) - - Show Bio

@Scarlet_Spyder said:

I have one I'd like to see discussed, but I don't have the scans and I am sure someone does. The whole, pre-52 Deathstroke tags speedsters bit.

I have seen a scan where Kid Flash seemed to be running around toying with Slade, and Slade to me looks to be using that calculating talent of his to calculate where KF would travel to and then blasted some ground in front of KF, not actually tagging him directly.

The other scan is where he blasts I think it was Wally who for some reason was on the ground and looking the other direction talking to a cop, then DS runs around a corner, and sets up his staff, which Wally then runs around the corner and trips over.

Both instances that I have seen show some amount of setup/prep/calculation against speedsters not going all out, and are less about him actually pulling out some amazing amount of speed and reflex to actually tag a speedster.

So, can someone prove or disprove this? I am curious to learn the truth of these "feats".

He does tag speedsters, but that's a result of CIS on their part more than anything else. For example, when he tagged Wally in Identity Crisis, you can see that Wally wasn't moving any faster than the speed of sound, because several explosions go off in the time it takes him to reach Slade:

His enhanced reflexes allow him to tag speedsters moving at low mach speeds, but if Flash decides to vibrate his skull out of his head, Slade's screwed. There are several other instances of Slade tagging speedsters, but you can apply this general principle to all of them and it'll still fit.

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#93 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Oni_Bane: Maybe he (SBP) was bracing himself

Your Superman vs mind control debunk would be perfect for this thread.

@SlimJ87D:Can we link to posts? that would be great for your indexing...

#94 Posted by Oni_Bane (1596 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@Oni_Bane: Maybe he (SBP) was bracing himself

I don't think bracing yourself is going to be enough.

#95 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Oni_Bane said:

@drgnx said:

@Oni_Bane: Maybe he (SBP) was bracing himself

I don't think bracing yourself is going to be enough.

Unfortunately the only time I recall that working wasn't cannon (superman vs hulk)

#96 Posted by Shawnbaby (10799 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Shawnbaby: you are just nitpicking at a term a writer used and have strayed away from the main point. Captain America is above what we currently define as the peak of man. It's as simple as that. You said it yourself, the feats support it. There's really nothing else besides not agreeing with a "term", a writer used to describe something he and others have displayed right before our eyes. what I'm trying to say is that it adds nothing to this thread.

@SlimJ87D said:

I've been meaning to do this thread for a long long time, then I saw someone else do it and got excited but it wasn't done right. http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/debunking-the-wank-comic-feat-fact-check/712866/

It actually was upsetting as no one was "allowed" to discuss, share or debate with one another.

For this discussion I would like users to post a feat they think is controversial and discuss it with fellow users. I will post it under a characters name and post where the question was brought up and where it was settled with others. Feel free to share and discuss feats here.

Hmm...and yet I get attacked because I don't agree with you and Ed about Captain America being the epitome of Human existence...Seems Legit. You used Brubakers quote as part of your evidence...as soon as you did that you opened up the door for people to discuss it. That's all I've done here.

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#97 Posted by Saren (25694 posts) - - Show Bio

Regarding the "does Black Adam strike with magic or not?" thing, he punched Superman in the face and Clark wasn't affected by that to any notable extent, other than being ticked off. Considering Superman is vulnerable to magic, a magic strike should definitely have at least hurt him a bit, if it actually was that.

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#98 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm ....Maybe, BA just normally does not charge his punches...or writers with different takes on how his power works..

#99 Edited by Binder_full_of_Women (85 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@SlimJ87D said:

I've been meaning to do this thread for a long long time, then I saw someone else do it and got excited but it wasn't done right. It actually was upsetting as no one was "allowed" to discuss, share or debate with one another.

It was done how i felt it should be done. I didn't have a problem with people discussing the feats mentioned. I had a problem with people using faulty physics and logic to try and wank their way into saying a feat is valid. People were debating on whether a moon could be considered a planet, just to say Superman could destroy a planet. Some users lied about feats and people were discussing things that never happened in the first place. One guy argued that picoseconds aren't sued to measure distance, another argued it did, and somehow they both thought they were agreeing with each other. Not exactly the type of productive debating you're trying to imply was happening. Which is why I asked for it to be locked. I wish your thread the best of luck.

You've got a great idea, but You can't limit people in this way in debate thread. When I've said that You should have made a blog I wasn't joking. There were people who were making respect threads in blogs and they were pretty popular.

Why can't I? It solves so many problems. Despite my pleas people were debating in the thread anyway. One of the longest debates were about Superman and the black hole feats. I informed everyone that in one instance it wasn't a black hole and superman accelerated to light speed only to escape the gravity. The other was about a mini black hole. I informed people that mini black holes are very different from astrophysical black holes; miniature black holes could have the event horizon the size of an atom and wouldn't be able to suck superman in. People continued using these arguments anyway. Some users said one thing in my thread and the complete opposite in another. People were lying about feats and getting debates started. Some changed their arguments to the complete opposite of views they held in another thread. Some didn't know the science behind the things they were saying. You cant have a productive debate this way. Who would have seen this blog? I didn't have any followers.

While I do agree that it would solve problem, I can tell you easily why you can't limit people...

...because they won't listen to you at all.

It's as simple as that. People do not like feeling censored; the instant you try to "enforce" your own rules in a public thread in a public forum...well, it all goes downhill. One can argue that it's illogical and impractical...but...eh, that's the way we (and by we I mean people all over the world) are. What you did, as in the thread itself, was a great idea; poorly executed IMO, but a great idea.

All those "debates"were was just people wanking. They can dress it up by calling it debating but that is all it was. The guy who made up feats and had people arguing about them even after I showed them that what they were talking about never happened. Wanking. The user who thought he knew better than a NASA scientist Wanking. The users who thought they were agreeing with each other. Wanking. That's all it is. Instead of just posting scans of the feats they want to claim happening they just used poorly applied science to try and wank their way into a feat. Even when whats shown in the picture contradicted what they were saying, they never relented. It was wanking. People got mad because I took away peoples ability to wank. If they had provided the three things I asked for and given me actual contradictions we could have discussed that. Instead people just continued debating imaginary feats. I censored wanking. The only people who would have a problem with my rules would be the people who do nothing but wank. Every single thread on this forum has rules set up in the OP. My Op rules were to have evidence of your claims if you want to counter a claim I've made. Instead people wanted to debate nothing and then get mad when I didn't let them; people couldn't find/see the feats that had been debunked because of these arguments. I've said my words and I don't want to make this into a thing. I'll bring up some feats later.

#100 Posted by Saren (25694 posts) - - Show Bio

From Red Hood & the Outlaws #14:

Jason's ship was near Pluto when they teleported to Earth, and Superman was right outside the ship. He then flies back to Earth and arrives immediately after the Outlaws get there. Light takes around 4 hours to travel the distance between Earth and Pluto. Jason states that they were near Pluto just a minute before they teleported to Earth, meaning Superman flew the distance within that time. Thus, I conclude that DCnU Superman is faster than light.

Anyone see a problem with this?

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