Discuss and Debunk a feat with a Viner

@beatboks1: Bump. I just really want to add to this point, magic does make Superman and Captain Marvel even when they fight (this writer wrote one of their fights).

@frozen said:

@beatboks1: Bump. I just really want to add to this point, magic does make Superman and Captain Marvel even when they fight:

I disagree completely. What makes them equal is their close levels of Strength and durability, Cap's greater stamina, etc. This is caused by magic but it isn't the magic itself that does it.

Answer me this, is Cap powered by magic when his sister and Freddy are also powered?? The answer is obviously yes. And yet we have seen in Power of Shazam 46 that while he is Superman's equal and they were stalemated arm wrestling, once his sister and Freddy also draw on the power he is no longer Superman's equal. He is still magic and Superman is still vulnerable to magic, yet suddenly Superman easily beats him in arm wrestling.

It's not the magic that makes Cap Superman's equal, it's the power the magic gives him WHEN it's powering him alone. Superman's lack of resistance to magic has nothing what so ever to do with the degree of it. If it did than some of the VERY low end mystics in DCU would not have affected him since the power they wield is well below the magic that powers a 1/3 powered member of the Marvel Family.

@beatboks1: Jurgens said they were close, he wrote this fight:

Superman #102 --- neither held back IIRC.

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Now, he did say ''to me'' and clearly other writers have emphasized them as equal in strength. However, Superman's lack of resistance to magic always seems to be played whenever he fights Captain Marvel. Why? Because...the writers do it anyway

A similar thing happened in Public Enemies:

And, Jurgens does believe Superman has a ''weakness'' to magic (whether he doesn't, just throwing this out there on his opinion).

In this interview, he states Superman has a ''weakness'' to magic.

http://www.comicboards.com/jurgens-rc.php

When Geoff Johns was asked whether Ultraman vs Black Adam = Superman vs Shazam, he said the difference is ''Ultraman doesn't have a weakness to magic''.

http://www.newsarama.com/19569-geoff-johns-big-changes-in-forever-evil-leads-to-a-very-different-new-phase-new-52.html

Now I do acknowledge - Earth 3 Shazam/Mazahs may stomp Ultraman (by the looks of it) - we'll have to wait and see whether the dark lightning affects him.

However, Mark Waid said in response to Superman's fight with Captain Marvel in Kingdom Come, is that Captain Marvel could ''physically stand up to him''

http://www.popgunchaos.com/2010/11/16/talking-shazam-with-mark-waid/

Now, he did say ''to me'' and clearly other writers have emphasized them as equal in strength. However, Superman's lack of resistance to magic always seems to be played whenever he fights Captain Marvel. Why? Because...the writers do it anyway

So again I ask if it was "superman's lack of resistance to magic" and not Cap's strength that makes them equals then why is he not bothered at all when Cap (still powered by magic) is not as strong because others share the power??

Jurgans is a writer of Superman and yes that makes him an expert on the character but he isn't on Cap. he has only written Cap's very few appearances in a Superman comic under his pen. There are countless appearances and pairings of the characters where there has been no such reference to magic being in effect. One very pertinent one comes to mind. Some evil force made Superman believe that Cap was Cyborg Supes and made Cap See Supes as Black Adam. During that entire encounter Superman only felt the blows of his adversary as being those of Cyborg Supes. He felt them as being the blows of a guy who is physically in his league. Considering how often he has faced magic I would think he would tell the difference quite easily. He didn't in fact the only reason he cottoned onto the fact it was Cap is the looks in the faces of the passers bye and civilians.

A similar thing happened in Public Enemies:

No offense but bringing up a story written by Loeb ( the best known creator of PIS in comics beside Bendis ) hardly aids your cause.

And, Jurgens does believe Superman has a ''weakness'' to magic (whether he doesn't, just throwing this out there on his opinion).

Of course superman has a "weakness to magic" I have never refuted this. Well actually it's not (according to cannon ) a weakness so much as not having any special invulnerability to it. That is to say he is affected by magic as much as anyone. Just coming into contact with magic doesn't and never has made superman weak or powerless the way Kryptonite does. Any physical damage or blunt force that is delivered by magic he can still tank just as well. But a spell used against him will affect him just like anyone else.

There are literally hundreds of times that Superman has endured physical attacks from magical characters. Dr Chaos first appeared in Superboy vol 2 issue 25. he was the evil or "Chaos" counterpart to classic Fate. using spells he created hands of water that held Superboy and then turned them into flames. The flames never burned Superboy, the containment he created couldn't hold him. The physical onslaughts he did had no more effect that any normal physical onslaught would. Silver age Superboy had a MUCH more pronounced weakness to magic than any post crisis version of Superman and physical "magical" attacks still didn't defeat him.

Conversely in Vietch's mini series about Vic Sage having become an urban shaman using very basic magic we are shown that magic far below the level of that used to power Captain Marvel even at 1/3 his power can have profound effect on Superman.

However, Superman's lack of resistance to magic always seems to be played whenever he fights Captain Marvel. Why? Because...the writers do it anyway

But that's incorrect. I've just given you two examples where it wasn't shown as that at all. Another would be in All Star Squadron. There are countless more. The greater consistency actually shows them as equals with neither truly greater than the other. So the simple fact is IF as you say "superman lack of resistance to magic" were being played whenever he fights Captain Marvel than I would ask why he hasn't lost all??? or at least more???

I'll email Roy Thomas to get his take on it and maybe through him get Jerry Ordway's take. They are both writers of Captain marvel and I'm sure i remember letters columns where their statements support my take. Can't guarantee I'll get a reply. Roy was nice enough to return a fan email to me many years ago thanking me for nice comments. Considering the enmity between him and DC over recent years he'll likely not reply, but can't hurt to ask.

@beatboks1: That's the thing. I AGREE magic should not be the reason. However, writers always play that when Superman and Captain Marvel specificallyfight. (Kingdom Come, Superman #102, Public Enemies)

. One very pertinent one comes to mind. Some evil force made Superman believe that Cap was Cyborg Supes and made Cap See Supes as Black Adam. During that entire encounter Superman only felt the blows of his adversary as being those of Cyborg Supes. He felt them as being the blows of a guy who is physically in his league. Considering how often he has faced magic I would think he would tell the difference quite easily. He didn't in fact the only reason he cottoned onto the fact it was Cap is the looks in the faces of the passers bye and civilians.

...I already posted the scans to this? That's the fight Jurgens replied to me on.

I'll post again:

Gallery

No offense but bringing up a story written by Loeb ( the best known creator of PIS in comics beside Bendis ) hardly aids your cause.

I actually don't like Loeb's stories at all. However, his fight seemingly correlates with Jurgens statement and Geoff Johns who both think Superman has a ''weakness'' to magic.

But that's incorrect. I've just given you two examples where it wasn't shown as that at all.

I'll say it again.

I agree that Superman has magical resistance but why do writers not hold this standard against Captain Marvel?

Your encounters are non-Captain Marvel fights. However writers who write the fights state magic tips the tables to be equal. In two instances, the magic card is played. All Star Squadron, is out of continuity and isn't mainstream Superman...

Only when the two fight,

The greater consistency actually shows them as equals with neither truly greater than the other

Again, I agree with this. However - I'm simply trying to obtain writer opinion on the subject. In similar instances, they are shown to be physical equals, case in point:

In this comic, he states he has magical connections after he punches Felix Faust' shield.

I'll email Roy Thomas to get his take on it and maybe through him get Jerry Ordway's take. They are both writers of Captain marvel and I'm sure i remember letters columns where their statements support my take. Can't guarantee I'll get a reply. Roy was nice enough to return a fan email to me many years ago thanking me for nice comments. Considering the enmity between him and DC over recent years he'll likely not reply, but can't hurt to ask.

I tried emailing Ordway, he didn't reply. Jurgens replied the next day. Though...I'll check out the columns.

@saren your thoughts? I agree Superman has a high magical resistance yet is it only used in Captain Marvel fights because of plot or are they genuinely equal? Because the writers reply surprised me.

@beatboks1: Don't think there is a writer column for Power of Shazam #46, when Superman fought Captain Marvel.

The WWHulk incarnation actually does use his speed

This feats backs @slimj87d post on regular Hulks mindset statement

and also gives an incarnation where he does uses speed more effectively

god no I'm talking about the old letters to the editor that there used to be in comics back in the 80's and before where editors would answer questions.

You can find them?

@frozen: honestly I wouldn't even know which issues to look into for the letter columns I'm thinking about (and may jest be remembering it completely different as well which often happens to me - old age affecting memory and all that)

I got a reply from Roy ( bloody gentleman and scholar and IMHO the best god damn writer to ever grace the pages of comics. His pen on Thor was the best issues ever, not to mention early Avengers , FF, Invaders, etc etc)

*edit* Hoping that this 6th attempt to load the bloody image works this time.

I realize when I types that was before you told me you agree with me as to Superman's magic "weakness". Seems Roy's in agreement with us. He does however pretty much say everyone's entitled to their take on it.

@beatboks1: Thanks for the information.

It seems that writers do change it often, one writer will write their fight and use ''magic'' while another will have them slugging it out as physical equals (just as they did in the Pre-Crisis days). Personally, I prefer the latter, the idea of them being equal (which luckily, has been supported due to statements, arm-wrestles, Superman's own admission, etc) has been like that for years.

Mark Waid also said Cap can stand up to him physically, so I guess it supports our agreement.

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-Thanos was primed to deliver a punch, he swung just in time for Surfer to miss.

-It says "Surfer missed his mark"(not any other variation of Thanos reacting, or anything besides. THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS).

-It's not a feat for Thanos or Surfer, besides the latter's travel speed(if his reaction were similar, he would've just corrected himself, and yanked it anyway before Thanos willed himself back to full power).

-Just because I'm about to punch a dude in the face, and a sniper is aimed at my raised fist, he misses just because I managed to swing when he shot, and I turn my head because the bullet whizzed past it, doesn't make me a bullet timer. It's honestly one of the dumbest arguments I consistently read on here.

Yeah the problem is too many writers don't care enough about what came before them to even be aware of it. That's one reason I used to like Roy Thomas as a writer so much. yes he made changes to characters and developed them, but he first knew where they came from and came up with plausible stories for the change. Hell so may of his retconns over the years were to rewrite poorly written crap that was inconsistent with the majority of showings so that it still existed AND was explained. His idea of giving Hitler the spear of destiny and Tojo the holy grail so that super heroes couldn't oppose them was brilliant. his explanation of why Hourman and Alan Scot suddenly disappeared from the JSA ( because of the publishers mandate over how JSAers were chosen at the time - top line sales characters but not ones who had their own solo book)and the JSA were still very active and vital as senior citizens also bloody genius.

More writers need to take us on this type of journey like Grell did with Green Arrow, Denny O'Neil did with Question and Ostrander did with Suicide Squad and Spectre. Explore changes but through character driven reasons. having them go through experiences that change them through growth. makes for a far more interesting read

I'm just going to do a quick debunk with Cassandra Cain and her move reading not working on meta humans but this isn't true. People use the example with deathstroke to prove this however it has been stated that Slade can control every molecule in his body, making him immune to move reading. Ravagar would be similar but she doesn't have the same level of control I suppose. Anyways here are scans of her reading super boy, sorry that there links but comicvine isn't letting me upload scans right now:

http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag52/jashro/ScreenShot2014-05-25at54613PM_zpsa041907e.png

http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag52/jashro/ScreenShot2014-05-25at54618PM_zps93662932.png

http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag52/jashro/ScreenShot2014-05-25at54620PM_zps3ab89929.png

@jashro44: Reading Superboy, sounds like PIS.

It wasn't a fight. He was just standing there in civies and she figured out he was superboy by reading his body language.

@jashro44: But...is that a testament for her ability to fight?

I just used it as a showing of her move reading working on super humans. People seem to think that being superhuman pretty much makes you immune to it for some reason.

Cassandra isn't capable of fighting superboy.

Is Sentry depowered? How was he challenged by Namor?

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@xxxddd: No, that was just PIS. Sentry tore Ares in two. Ares and Namor are supposed to be around 70 tonners.

Also, Namor threw a bus at civilians, if anything, Sentry was probably trying to protect citizens.

@slimj87d: Is that from Dark Reign? Because I have a feeling it is...that entire arc was PIS.

Does anyone have that Wally West punching Anti Monitor feat at hand? I was wondering why so many people disregard it out right. Maybe there was something I'm missing?

Yeah, why does everyone just disregard those?

@sophia89: Namor punched Sentry in the face and Sentry felt it...that's stupid.

Also, here is Namor with the Time Gem.

And here is Namor with the Power Gem.

*Did Namor get the Power Gem when Iron Man redistributed the gems to the Illuminati after taking them from a defeated Hood?

@slimj87d: why does it have stuff like

DBZ planet busting pasge 21, if theres only 18 pages?

I am interested in the explosion survivals and other stuff but the pages seem off in the index.

This thread was made before they "upgraded" (more like a downgrade to be honest) the website.

It changed the number of posts per a page and pretty much screwed this whole thread up. I haven't had the time fix the page numbers sadly.

Are we talking about my DBZ posts? Damn that seems a while ago that I made them. I dug them up again for my last CAV but IIRC I made them just around the Superman vs Goku Death Battle.

Also what's happened with the page changes from the last site model?

Also, how did Sentry defeat Iron Man? Did Iron Man have prep?

Well the previous model and this one don't do the same amount of "post per a page." So when the upgrade happened, it threw everything off. I haven't been as active since I'm facing double the amount of challenges in life than I was a month ago, all for good reason of course.

@slimj87d: Damn that's sad to hear. I hope everything's all right or that it gets better soon mate. I miss seeing your awesome battle forum posts and detailed analysis on here. You're definitely a prime HOF candidate IMO.

Iron Man didn't have prep.

Iron Man was on the run and Sentry was ordered to bring him in.

@slimj87d: k I am sure I can figure the math behind it.

for example

X thing is on page Y now, and was on page Z before

and thing A is on B was on C

I should be able to figure it out from there, If you want when I am done Ill send you the re index. I dunno if it will work though.

If not ill be searching thru

@lvenger: aparently the number of post per page is what messed it up.

Are they in your 2v2 with pope? I could look there, You had some arguments I agreed with there ( and some I didnt of course)

But yeah, thats what I am looking for ( i think? XD)

@lvenger: Thanks, I really appreciate that. But I think you guys deserve to be in the HOF for sharing scans, having a lot of knowledge and most importantly, proving yourself on 1 on 1 debates which I have not ever participated in.

@slimj87d: Well I was actually recently inducted into the HOF during the last round of voting in May but people were saying that you deserved more votes too.

@easternwind: Yeah some of them are adapted and fitted into my last CAV with Pope. They're on page 18 I think since that's where I last found them.

@lvenger: Out of curiosity where do you stand in the discussion that Frozen and I have been having re Superman/magic/Captain marvel on this forum??

Hehe it's a debate we've been having on the battle forums and PMs too. I fall on your side in the discussion which is why we've been debating it. I also think that Billy's punches don't contain any obvious magical enhancements to them and that only Billy's strength of Hercules is what enables him to keep up with Superman in terms of physicals. Just because he's powered by the gods doesn't give him obvious magic though IMO.

Well, I disagree with this of course ;P

@lvenger: This is something that's always interested me (contrast between scans).

Does Captain Marvel amplify his strength with The Power of Zeus? - or does he get more powerful with age?

In the JSA series, KC Superman tanked Hercules punch like it was nothing.

However, by the same standard the same was not met with KC Captain Marvel's punch.

@frozen: I can only offer the same point as before which is that there's no clear indication of Marvel amping his punches with magic. Your example is reliant on the fact that KC Captain Marvel is a near physical equal to KC Superman meaning he could deck him and send him flying as opposed to Hercules trying and failing to accomplish a similar feat.

And people say feats don't matter :p

It was not really to do with magic, I have my thoughts on the magic punches, as I do believe they are laced (not quite the direction I'm trying to head with those scans though), the scans were to show something else. KC Captain Marvel, KC Superman both have parts of the Pre-Flashpoint timelines under their belt (or in fact, histories) so does he get more powerful with age?

It just interested me, while KC Superman was near enough equal to KC Captain Marvel in everything except durability (KC Superman far more durable), it seemed Captain Marvel also got more powerful over time.

Feats matter when you're discussing battle forum debates. My favourite current ongoing series is Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman and there have been complaints that Diana is nerfed and weak by Wonder Woman purists and others. Yet I adore that comic because of its story, tone, direction and strong handling of multiple plot lines and integration of Greek Mythology, tragedy and horror. I'd take a well written story over a feats laden story any day.

I'm not arguing against those points, I'm just saying that with all this critical thught and time spent solely on analyzing and discussing feats,then they must certainly bear some importance in the realm of comic books. Not that feats are necessary for a good story, and Azzarello's Wonder woman is certainly indicative of that, but they don't harm one either, and Jason Aaron's Thoris certainly indicative of that. I've had discussions with other folks who claim that they don't matter, and, in my estimation, threads like this prove otherwise.

@pperspectiveandreality: If a story is genuinely great, they do not matter.

You're entitled to that opinion.