#1 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been meaning to do this thread for a long long time, then I saw someone else do it and got excited but it wasn't done right. http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/debunking-the-wank-comic-feat-fact-check/712866/

It actually was upsetting as no one was "allowed" to discuss, share or debate with one another.

For this discussion I would like users to post a feat they think is controversial and discuss it with fellow users. I will post it under a characters name and post where the question was brought up and where it was settled with others. Feel free to share and discuss feats here.

Rules:

1. Respect the persons analysis. If you disagree, explain why. You guys must discuss why the feat is valid or invalid. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT take this personal. Share and educate with one another. If you need to PM and curse at each other then do so.

2. If your feat is debunked or contradicted, then you must, YOU MUST edit your post at the bottom and explain how your feat is valid, invalid, bunked or debunked.

3. Before you challenge a statement from another person, please reread what they wrote. In your own post, before you question it reexplain what that person is trying to convey and then point out what contradicts it. This is how debating should be done, flame wars start from misinterpretations or people refusing to understand where the other person is coming from. Even if you know they are wrong, but yourself in their shoes. Understanding what they are conveying perfectly will only make your counter stronger.

Index:

A

B

Batman

- Batman did not kick a full powered Spectre by Citzenbane PAGE 1

-Batman has never truly beaten Superman with prep. By Citizenbane PAGE 1

-Batman did not defeat Deathsroke straight up head to head by SlimJ87D PAGE 6

Black Adam

-Black Adam and Captain Marvel are not the same power level by Beatboks PAGE 4

-Superman, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, etc do not battle (move their limbs) at FTL SlimJ87D PAGE 6

Boba Fett

-Boba Fett did not beat Darth Vader by Silver2467 PAGE 2

C

Captain America

-Captain America is not peak human. He is enhanced human by SlimJ87D PAGE 1, 8

-Black Widow did not ONE SHOT Captain America PAGE 20

Captain Marvel

-Captain Marvel Wields magic that's why he can hurt Superman by Beatboks PAGE 4, 19, 20

-Superman, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, etc do not battle (move their limbs) at FTL SlimJ87D PAGE 6

-Captain Marvel can be depowered by lightning by Killemall PAGE 6

D

Dragonball Z

-Dragonball Z characters can or can’t destroy planets PAGE 21, 24, 25, 26

E

F

Flash

-The Flash does have an increase in durability. Deathstroke tagging him is PIS. By SlimJ87D and Citizenbane PAGE 4, 14

G

Gambit

-Gambit can charge Organic matter PAGE 14

H

Hulk

-Hulk is fast, but he does not have the mindset to control his speed by SlimJ87D PAGE 2, 3, 4, 9

-Hulk (green scar, World War Hulk, World Breaker, etc) emits gamma energy when he is angry by SlimJ87D PAGE 2, 9

-Hulk destroyed actually destroyed asteroid PAGE 27, 28, 30

I

Iceman

-Iceman never beat Oblivion by Marksman PAGE 1

J

K

L

M

Mace Windu

-Mace Windu did not beat Palaptine by Silver2467 PAGE 2

Miscellaneous

- How to compare explosion survivals as feats PAGE 22

N

O

Odin

-Odin and Zeus are around the same level by SlimJ87D and Killemall PAGE 7

P

Phoenix Force

-Phoenix Force did not affect whole Universe PAGE 20

Q

R

S

Spider-Man

-Spider-man did not lift the whole daily bugle by SlimJ87D PAGE 6

Silver Surfer

-Silver Surfer gets tagged often by slower people by Killemall PAGE 4

-Silver Surfer can’t switch of X-Gene PAGE 20

Superboy-Prime

-Superboy-Prime does not have Silver Age Superman's powers by SlimJ87D and Killemall PAGE 7, 11

Superman

-Superman didn't move a machine the size of Jupiter. PAGE 1

-Superman does have combat experience and training by Jayfourmines PAGE 3

-Superman (DCnU) can fly FTL by Citizenbane PAGE 5

-Superman, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, etc do not battle (move their limbs) at FTL SlimJ87D PAGE 6

-Superman can survive in a black hole unharmed PAGE 20

T

Thor

-Thor did not fight Tutinax at the speed of light by Citizenbane PAGE 1

-Thor does have but a way to fight speedsters by SlimJ87D PAGE 1

-Thor's hammer strikes are not just blunt force but magically amped strikes by SlimJ87D PAGE 1

-Thor lacks speed PAGE 4, 11, 14

-Thor did not lift 1/3 of Earth’s mass PAGE 20

U

V

W

Wolverine

-Adamantium in the 1610 (Ultimate Universe) is not weaker than 616 adamantium. By CadenceV2 PAGE 7

-Wolverine's healing factor indeed relies on his health state by God_Spawn pAGE 10

X

Y

Z

Zeus

-Odin and Zeus are around the same level by SlimJ87D and Killemall PAGE 7

#2 Posted by Killemall (18461 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: I like this :) i really really like this. You might wanna tag CitizenBane he wanted to debunk few feats on the other thread but was just disappointed by the OP.

#3 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

This one came from a user in the hall of fame, @CitizenBane . It isn't much to debunk as the argument is valid in itself.

Batman did not kick a full powered Spectre

#4 Posted by Killemall (18461 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: wouldnt it be good to get some debunking from Blinder's thread? He did a good job debunking Megaddon scan, Superman/wonder woman and green lantern moving earth scan etc.

#5 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall: What page was that on? Or was it on his first page? 
#6 Posted by Killemall (18461 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Page 11.

Superman didn't move a machine the size of Jupiter. He was being dominated telepathically and chained. When the telepathic link was severed he broke the chains and flew off to stop Maggedon. It would seem you're going for a record for most feats debunked.

#7 Edited by Saren (25560 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Now, this is much better. There's another misconception that I addressed a long time ago, I'll post it here.

Batman has beaten Superman with or without prep

Batman has never once beaten Superman in canon, Post-Crisis or Post-Flashpoint continuity. People like to bring up Batman taking down Superman with prep in stories like TDKR/TDKSA, but none of that is canon. In canon stories, Batman has lost virtually every fight he's ever had with Superman, even when he had prep or real superpowers. Below is a list of most of their fights. I think it might be all of their fights, but I might have missed a few, and either way if I did Batman didn't win those either.

Batman #428

Batman's trying to bring the Joker to justice for beating Jason to death and blowing him and his mother up, but Joker was conferred diplomatic immunity by Iran (don't ask), so Superman's telling him to calm down since there's nothing he can do. Batman gets angry, and...

End result: Batman punches Superman and is saved from being Oracle before Oracle because Superman rolled with the punch. Advantage Kal-El.

JLA #44

The infamous Tower of Babel incident, where Ra's al Ghul steals Batman's contingency plans for bringing down the JLA and employs them against the various members. Turns out Batman's plan for taking down a rogue Superman was a specially engineered form of red kryptonite that wreaked havoc with Superman's ability to metabolize sunlight.

End result: This is probably the only canon incident that could be used to claim any kind of win for Batman over Superman. And it's not even a direct encounter. A lot of people claim that since Ra's could easily pull this off, Batman should also be able to. Couple of points regarding that:

  • Ra's has resources that dwarf Batman's. In The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul he told Tim Drake that comparing the Wayne fortune to his own wealth would be akin to comparing a drop of water to the ocean or something along those lines. He also has an army at his beck and call that he can deploy to achieve his desired effect. It would be much easier for Ra's to do something like this than it would be for Batman.
  • Batman is a member of the League, and thus under constant scrutiny from the people he's plotting against. Ra's operates in the shadows, he does not have to worry about Superman finding out about what he's up to. Especially since he's not even a League villain.

I guess if you stretch a little, Batman is potentially capable of this. Very well, advantage Batman.

Batman #612

Probably the most famous fight between the two. Or given that the only image from this fight that ever sees the light of day is the one where Batman punches Superman, it's probably the most famous fight between the two that no one bothers actually reading before posting "LOL SUPERMAN GOT PUNCHED OUT BY BATMAN, SO HULK SMASH PUNY KRYPTONIAN".

End result: First and foremost, this was written by Jeph Loeb. 90% of the things Jeph Loeb writes require a liberal suspension of disbelief, even for comics. He thinks a tiny piece of kryptonite stuck in a ring is enough to lower Superman's durability to the point where Batman can make him bleed. Why Superman even gave Batman that ring, I'll never be able to figure out. If he ever actually went rogue, a kryptonite ring is not going to stop him from simply nuking Bruce with his heat vision. But ok, I'll play along. Note three things: that Batman himself says that if Superman wanted he could kill him with superspeed, that Batman himself says that if he continually punches Superman every bone in his hand will shatter, and that Batman himself says that Superman is holding back as much as he can while fighting Ivy's control. Even so, after hitting Kal with all the electricity in Metropolis, the battle still comes down to Catwoman putting Lois in danger, forcing Superman to break Ivy's control and save her instead of beating Batman to death with a car. Look at that scan. If Catwoman had been a few seconds late, Superman would have brought a car weighing several tons down on Bruce's head, and exactly what could he possibly do about that? Advantage Kal-El.

Superman/Batman #2

The first of a series of fights between the two in this series. Here Superman and Batman fight an alternate future version of Superman. I've included this because technically, it's still Superman vs Batman in canon content.

End result: Evil Supes backhands Batman and is about to throw a car at him, something Bruce a) cannot do anything about, and b) cannot survive. He runs out of time before that happens and fades away to his own timeline. Advantage evil Kal-El.

Adventures of Superman #642

Superman is mind-controlled by Max Lord and placed in an illusion where he thinks he's fighting Darkseid (he says it's Ruin, but that might simply be an error), but in reality he's fighting Batman. He's enraged because he saw Darkseid kill Lois in the illusion, so he's taking it out on Batman.

End result: While fighting off the Watchtower's defenses, Superman nearly murders Batman, who is saved by the intervention of Wonder Woman. Advantage Kal-El. Duh.

Superman/Batman #23

Bats is possessed by the Kryptonite Man. That's right. He's literally glowing with kryptonite.

End result: While literally glowing with kryptonite, Batman still loses to Superman. Advantage Kal-El.

Superman/Batman #33

Here Batman was under the control of an alien life form called the Blackrock. He had super powers. Legit super powers!

End result: With legit superpowers, Superman still beat him so hard the Blackrock got scared and abandoned him. Advantage Kal-El.

Justice League #2

This fight is the first face-to-face encounter between Superman and Batman post-Flashpoint. I've only included the Batman stuff since the rest of the fight is mostly GL and Flash, so it's irrelevant.

End result: Batman throws literally everything he has at Superman and it doesn't do squat. Who do you think has the advantage here?

Batman: The Dark Knight #5

This is their most recent fight, and already the single image of Batman punching Superman is circulating everywhere as if that's what the fight actually was. Batman is on Bane's new Venom, and with it he somehow hits Superman hard enough to make him bleed. That in itself is PIS, mainly because if this new Venom amps your strength to the point where you can hurt a Kryptonian, then Batman should have been splattered across the wall when Clayface, Deathstroke and Bane hit him while they were on the drug. Towards the end of the fight, Batman starts channeling Frank Miller, so Superman goes like:

End result: Even with the PIS strength and durability increase, Superman still wins with one punch. Advantage Kal-El.

Even with all the prep money can buy, Batman is going to need a whole lot of plot to fight Superman (let alone beat him) even with prep. Am I saying it's impossible for Batman to ever beat Superman, no matter what the circumstances are? No. I'm just saying it's extremely unlikely. Odds are that in 99% of their encounters, there's only going to be one real outcome.

"How else will random people on the internet stop claiming you can beat me?"
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#8 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane: Wow, I can tell that's going to be an awesome read for me to go through at lunch. 
#9 Posted by Billy Batson (57907 posts) - - Show Bio

Bane, spoiler tags, pls.
BB

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#10 Posted by Saren (25560 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, okay

Moderator
#11 Posted by Marksman (1364 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman never beat Oblivion

Oblivion took a dive, so that the woman who Bobby loved (Marge), would realised that she was Oblivion's daughter (Mirage). Oblivion gets back up instantly, picks Bobby up and (for want of a better word), consumes him. (Apparently, due to the X-Men traveling back in time, they did something that meant Bobby was never born, so Iceman never existed).

#12 Posted by Lvenger (19067 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes Binder's thread has been locked and a superior replacement has been made! Nice job @SlimJ87D:

@Killemall said:

@SlimJ87D: Page 11.

Superman didn't move a machine the size of Jupiter. He was being dominated telepathically and chained. When the telepathic link was severed he broke the chains and flew off to stop Maggedon. It would seem you're going for a record for most feats debunked.

Well there goes a strength feat I was planning to use for Superman in my upcoming debate with Backflip.

#13 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

hey Bane, could you debunk Thor fighting at lightspeed against Tutinax?

#14 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Nice. Just wanna add one thing though about the Superman/Batman #33 fight. It actually starts off in issue #32, and originally its Superman (and Supergirl) who are possessed by an Alien life form. Batman slows Superman down with K and merges with Black Rock, freeing Superman from the Aliens control (so one could call that a victory I suppose). The problem is once Superman is freed/back to normal Batman becomes overwhelmed by Black Rock and attacks Superman. So its kind of the classic the hero always wins scenario. As the hero, Batman freed Superman. In reverse, Superman as the hero has to beat Black Rock out of Batman.

Moderator
#15 Posted by Saren (25560 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines: Sure thing,

Thor fought Tutinax at the speed of light

People who claim this usually only post one scan (second in the series below) and omit the rest of the fight (from Thor: The Deviants Saga #2).

The fight appeared strange visually (afterimages and pauses and so on) because Thor and Tutinax were fighting in a chamber where an Eternal scientist named Phaestos had slowed down the speed of light, not because the two of them were fighting at lightspeed. If Thor were actually fighting at lightspeed (something he isn't capable of anyway), he would have wrecked Tutinax easily, since the latter is a slow brick with peak human speed at best. Yet Tutinax won the fight quite convincingly.

Moderator
#16 Posted by TDK_1997 (14648 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a nice thread!

#17 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines: I don't really think that needs debunking lol, Thor can't fight a speedster. But if you want to discuss it, Thor's hammer is sentient. It is capable of moving 2 times the speed of light if it wants to and it's pretty damn heavy too. So if Thor asked it to strike someone at its maximum speed, like the Hulk, it could if it wanted to. Heck it killed the THING posses.

Thor DOES have a way to fight a speedster.

Thor's hammer strikes are NOT just blunt strikes, they are magically amped.

#18 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: thanks so much for the scans

#19 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20117 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D:

Great job!

#20 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America is NOT just a peak human. He is what humans will be one day when we evolve and he is at the peak of that.

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

"Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph."

Here, this is what Brubaker was talking about.

And finally this is Ed Brubakers writing here where he clearly puts it out there in his own dialogue, no artist is determining an obscure feat here. Cap is clearly running 5 miles in 5 minutes.

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can."

#21 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23798 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Nice thread:) I will debunk love to debunk The "He-Man went toe-to toe with PC Supes" but I'm to lazy.

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#22 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7403 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Great redo on the original idea of the thread.

I have nothing to debunk so I will keep browsing.

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#23 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: pretty cool scans. I don't doubt Thor's AoE attacks are capable of taking down speedsters. What I was trying to debunk is that Thor fights and reacts at super speed.

#24 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been meaning to do this thread for a long long time, then I saw someone else do it and got excited but it wasn't done right. It actually was upsetting as no one was "allowed" to discuss, share or debate with one another. 

#25 Posted by Lvenger (19067 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

I've been meaning to do this thread for a long long time, then I saw someone else do it and got excited but it wasn't done right. It actually was upsetting as no one was "allowed" to discuss, share or debate with one another.

And this is why your one is so much better. Once I have time to spare, I might partake in some debunking myself.

#26 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7403 posts) - - Show Bio

Also.

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#27 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D:

Congratulations, this is a very good thread and I like the way it is being done.

If I can find a way to use my digital (entirely legal) collection to add to the work being done here, I'll try my best.

#28 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio
@DocFatalis: Well I found a lot of my scans from google images. I'm sure you can do the same. It was quite easy actually. 
#29 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been meaning to ask all viners who know something about the subject...

Just how good Hulk really is? Does he belong in the top tiers like Supes and Thor? I know there's a lot of "hate" (or so they say) in the Vine for the green guy, but i'd like to see some actual feats that would debunk the myth that Hulk is a slow, useless brick.

Also, i'd like to see if anyone can debunk the whole "Hulk has limitless strength" thing.

#30 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Boba Fett has beaten Darth Vader

Mace Windu has beaten Palpatine under his own power

#31 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jayfournines said:

I've been meaning to ask all viners who know something about the subject...

Just how good Hulk really is? Does he belong in the top tiers like Supes and Thor? I know there's a lot of "hate" (or so they say) in the Vine for the green guy, but i'd like to see some actual feats that would debunk the myth that Hulk is a slow, useless brick.

Also, i'd like to see if anyone can debunk the whole "Hulk has limitless strength" thing.

Well I had a reasonable explanation for Hulk. He is strong and he is actually fast. And he emits gamma energy when he strikes. 

  Hulk's is fast, but he does not have the mindset to control his speed like Flash, Superman and Sentry, etc. 

Hulk emits gamma radiation as energy projectile when he is really angry. Thus making his strikes stronger. 

 
So with all this together, Hulk is actually pretty damn deadly. He can move his limbs fast, it makes absolute sense for him to perform these feats. With him being able to move his limbs quickly, he also emits ENERGY PROJECTILE at a rating of 5. This puts him on levels as these guys.  
 
http://marvel.wikia.com/Category:Long_range_Energy_Projection
#32 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467: man that is insane. i remember reading those posts a few years back!
#33 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: dude thanks so much, This put Hulk on a whole different level then.

#34 Posted by DCsuperman0007 (515 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: thanks a lot for the debunks you did it right the other guy who did it was an idiot. but i disagree about spider man it seemed that with the help of his web he was able to hold up the building.

#35 Edited by God_Spawn (37568 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

I've been meaning to ask all viners who know something about the subject...

Just how good Hulk really is? Does he belong in the top tiers like Supes and Thor? I know there's a lot of "hate" (or so they say) in the Vine for the green guy, but i'd like to see some actual feats that would debunk the myth that Hulk is a slow, useless brick.

Also, i'd like to see if anyone can debunk the whole "Hulk has limitless strength" thing.

Hulk can hang with Thor in character. He has on multiple occasions. They just haven't had many decisive conclusions. Thor KO'd Hulk once with a lightning bolt and almost killed him Hammer and Sinew. Likewise, Hulk once KO'd Thor in a rather embarrassing fight in Let the Battle Begin and in Avengers Assemble, he grabbed Thor's hand under Thanos' telepathic control and smashed him in the face with Mjolnir keeping him out of the fight for a bit before he got back up. So whether he briefly KO'd him or stunned him long enough while he recovered seems to be open to interpretation. However, in Let the Battle Begin and Hammer and Sinew, we don't really know when the story takes place or what versions of characters were really being used. Outside of those, one usually ends up running away or someone gets beat up but an outside occurrence happens and stops it. Outside of character morals though and due to how big of a plot device and variety Mjolnir has, Thor could potentially beat Hulk every time if he used his upper attacks or energy drain attacks.

I personally don't think he can hang with Superman and that is a speed thing which I will get to. To answer one of your questions, Hulk is slow but he has some decent reflex feats for a brick. He's caught tank shells before, jets flying at him and someone will always post the Quicksilver one. But in a fight, he is slow compared to the likes of Spider-Man, Wolverine and Captain America who have all danced around him. They would probably get hit eventually being the keyword. Superman's combat is far above Hulk's and he should be able to land more hits and faster than what Hulk defend against. Superman should realistically have Hulk beat before he realizes what happens. Just my opinion on that though. No sense in why Superman seeing faster than Hulk by quite a bit should have to throw punches at his speed considering Superman has fought and traded blows with people close to his own level of speed like Wonder Woman for example, whom is undoubtedly faster than Hulk. Their perceptions and ability to attack are at very different speeds.

And Hulk's strength is limitless but dependent on his anger as like most of his stats are. But, he has to constantly find a stimulus to reach that point of anger. And to debunk how some of his fanatics think he can't he can't be KO'd. Just because he is mad doesn't mean he can't be KO'd when people like Iron Man, Thor, Namor, and even Colossus have knocked out Savage Hulk and Rhino KO'd Grey Hulk. So he can be knocked out, even if for brief periods of time and dependent on the incarnation of course.

Hope this helps and if you want scans on these instances, I will find some.

Moderator
#36 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: thanks so much for the analisis; I know his base level is far inferior than Superman, but his healing factor is actually one of the best (if not the best) in the Marvel U.

#37 Posted by jashro44 (20515 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

Captain America is NOT just a peak human. He is what humans will be one day when we evolve and he is at the peak of that.

From the words of Ed Brubaker himself. The man who wrote Captain America for 8 years.

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

"Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph."

Here, this is what Brubaker was talking about.

And finally this is Ed Brubakers writing here where he clearly puts it out there in his own dialogue, no artist is determining an obscure feat here. Cap is clearly running 5 miles in 5 minutes.

Again, what Ed Brubaker is saying is that Steve is not just the peak of man, but evolution wise he is the absolute peak of what a human can be physically in evolution. Whatever physical potential we have in evolution, he already is.

"My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can."

I believe there was a bio released some time after siege which actually was labeled cap super human. I can't confirm if cap was labeled super human but black panther was labeled super human and in the same bio Cap states they are equals.

#38 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jayfournines:  
 
Yeah, honestly Thor has a lot of different attacks he can take the Hulk with like GS said. He could send the hammer at 2 times the speed of light if he wanted to. He can BFR the Hulk. But Thor has great sportsmanship and respect to fight on even levels with hulk. But we'll see what happens when Hulk starts to use technology. Banner is going to start putting tech on the Hulk, the Hulk might start flying too, or hovering who knows. But Hulk with Banner Tech might be something to be excited about. 
 
#39 Posted by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44: That's interesting. It would probably be Ed Brubaker who wrote the bio. But it just explains why Steve has all these high end feats and people like to deny them and say that Steve should only be an olympic athlete. Bucky is like an olympic athlete and he commented that Steve is about 3 times everything he is, speed, strength and durability. I have that scan at home.  
#40 Posted by jashro44 (20515 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: i don't think it was written by Brubaker. it was the heroic age card (basically what is supposedly in shields files according to steve rogers) which listed black panther as super human and in the same file he stated they were equals.

I'm still trying to find Steves. All though i have found this which labels him as an enhanced human being.

#41 Edited by Dextersinister (5921 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: You've put to much real world logic behind the idea that the Hulk can move fast, yes a fist would have to go at a tremendous speed as well as be incredibly durable to be considered to be a super powered punch in real life but when it comes to bricks like the Hulk powers are simply those that fall within the theme, thunderclaps, space tosses and super jumps are all staples but a street leveler will still be fast enough to dodge the punch as real world science doesn't apply to their actions.

For example anyone with a healing factor should have a power that works like the Flash where they would need to consume large quantities of food to explain where this extra flesh comes from but as it is they currently regrow flesh and limbs from thin air.

#42 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd like to somewhat debunk the fact that Pre-N52 Superman had no fighting experience.

Superman had AT LEAST a thousand years of experience along with Wonder Woman since they were trapped and took part in a war in Valhalla. This was referenced in following Superman and Wonder Woman titles as well. Apologies, Scans are out of order.

#43 Edited by Binder_full_of_Women (85 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

I've been meaning to do this thread for a long long time, then I saw someone else do it and got excited but it wasn't done right. It actually was upsetting as no one was "allowed" to discuss, share or debate with one another.

It was done how i felt it should be done. I didn't have a problem with people discussing the feats mentioned. I had a problem with people using faulty physics and logic to try and wank their way into saying a feat is valid. People were debating on whether a moon could be considered a planet, just to say Superman could destroy a planet. Some users lied about feats and people were discussing things that never happened in the first place. One guy argued that picoseconds aren't sued to measure distance, another argued it did, and somehow they both thought they were agreeing with each other. Not exactly the type of productive debating you're trying to imply was happening. Which is why I asked for it to be locked. I wish your thread the best of luck.

#44 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dextersinister said:

@SlimJ87D: You've put to much real world logic behind the idea that the Hulk can move fast, yes a fist would have to go at a tremendous speed as well as be incredibly durable to be considered to be a super powered punch in real life but when it comes to bricks like the Hulk powers are simply those that fall within the theme, thunderclaps, space tosses and super jumps are all staples but a street leveler will still be fast enough to dodge the punch as real world science doesn't apply to their actions.

For example anyone with a healing factor should have a power that works like the Flash where they would need to consume large quantities of food to explain where this extra flesh comes from but as it is they currently regrow flesh and limbs from thin air.

Flash can punch with great amounts of force due to his speed. Flash facts state this in his dialogue.   

Hulk performs thunderclaps, and that can't just be due to strength alone. There has to be some speed behind his feats. Spider-man even has pre-cog is in his bio he is 16 times faster than a human. With his reflexes and pre-cognition he could dodge and do things about 40 times that of a person.   
So I do not think it's fair to say that the Flash gets to perform his feats even though he has strength but Hulk doesn't perform his feats due to speed. So if we accept one of these we have to accept the other. Otherwise it absolutely does not make sense for Hulk to perform a Thunderclap if he clapped his hands at 90 mph (arbitrary number) like a normal human. You have a guy here that escapes orbit with his legs, throws objects that are multiple tons to the moon, mixes a formula that would take a centrifuge 40 hours in a few minutes by shaking his hand, thunderclaps cars and people threw buildings. Then we have to ignore it and say he's slow. I don't think that's right. 
#45 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17145 posts) - - Show Bio
@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@SlimJ87D said:

I've been meaning to do this thread for a long long time, then I saw someone else do it and got excited but it wasn't done right. It actually was upsetting as no one was "allowed" to discuss, share or debate with one another.

It was done how i felt it should be done. I didn't have a problem with people discussing the feats mentioned. I had a problem with people using faulty physics and logic to try and wank their way into saying a feat is valid. People were debating on whether a moon could be considered a planet, just to say Superman could destroy a planet. Some users lied about feats and people were discussing things that never happened in the first place. One guy argued that picoseconds aren't sued to measure distance, another argued it did, and somehow they both thought they were agreeing with each other. Not exactly the type of productive debating you're trying to imply was happening. Which is why I asked for it to be locked. I wish your thread the best of luck.

You've got a great idea, but You can't limit people in this way in debate thread. When I've said that You should have made a blog I wasn't joking. There were people who were making respect threads  in blogs and they were pretty popular.
#46 Edited by Dextersinister (5921 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: In the real world yes you would be correct but moving quickly is not part of the Hulk's powerset or fit in with his characters theme it is part of Spiderman's, he is faster and more agile because he's not just a brick like the Hulk. You would have been better comparing him with quicksilver who has rarely shown the ability to throw more than the standard punch, when they introduced the speedforce there was almost no limit to what the Flash couldn't do as long as it had some vague connection to superspeed

The Flash doesn't lift buildings or mountains because it doesn't fit in with his theme much like superspeed doesn't fit in with the Hulk's, you are trying to apply real world logic to comic book superstrength and if it worked that way it would mean every brick is capable of superspeed but countless examples of them throwing sluggish punches against more agile street levelers show that they are not.

#47 Edited by Binder_full_of_Women (85 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

@SlimJ87D said:

I've been meaning to do this thread for a long long time, then I saw someone else do it and got excited but it wasn't done right. It actually was upsetting as no one was "allowed" to discuss, share or debate with one another.

It was done how i felt it should be done. I didn't have a problem with people discussing the feats mentioned. I had a problem with people using faulty physics and logic to try and wank their way into saying a feat is valid. People were debating on whether a moon could be considered a planet, just to say Superman could destroy a planet. Some users lied about feats and people were discussing things that never happened in the first place. One guy argued that picoseconds aren't sued to measure distance, another argued it did, and somehow they both thought they were agreeing with each other. Not exactly the type of productive debating you're trying to imply was happening. Which is why I asked for it to be locked. I wish your thread the best of luck.

You've got a great idea, but You can't limit people in this way in debate thread. When I've said that You should have made a blog I wasn't joking. There were people who were making respect threads in blogs and they were pretty popular.

Why can't I? It solves so many problems. Despite my pleas people were debating in the thread anyway. One of the longest debates were about Superman and the black hole feats. I informed everyone that in one instance it wasn't a black hole and superman accelerated to light speed only to escape the gravity. The other was about a mini black hole. I informed people that mini black holes are very different from astrophysical black holes; miniature black holes could have the event horizon the size of an atom and wouldn't be able to suck superman in. People continued using these arguments anyway. Some users said one thing in my thread and the complete opposite in another. People were lying about feats and getting debates started. Some changed their arguments to the complete opposite of views they held in another thread. Some didn't know the science behind the things they were saying. You cant have a productive debate this way. Who would have seen this blog? I didn't have any followers.

#48 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7403 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister: Fond this scan. It proves nothing (just 1 feat) but will appear in the battle form no the less.

Online
#49 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dextersinister: Again, it is the Hulk's mindset that doesn't classify him as a speedster of any sort. For example, we humans have millisecond reaction times, but it's not like we live in those realms. I could ask you to rapidly poke a piece of paper as fast as you can, it could be so fast that cameras back in the days (the ones that couldn't catch Bruce Lee's punches) could not catch it, but there would be no control or accuracy to your pokes. You can swing your hands faster than a fly can fly, yet it's not like you can catch the fly easily or most times at all. 
 
That's how the Hulk is. He can move his limbs fast, he doesn't have the control or ability to control it. That's why he does things like thunderclaps and uses objects to throw at people because that's where he can use that brute strength and speed. It doesn't need accuracy.  
 
It's not something expressed in his power set because it's not something useful for him to use. His mind is slowed down, like the human struggling to catch a fly even though we can swing our arms faster than them. It's something he can do but it's something that is not consistent or controllable for him to do.  
 
Refer back to the medical device example again. There are shakers that can shake 100s if not 1000s of times faster than us. Yet this mixer would take 40 hours to mix something where with the Hulk's ability to shake his hands very fast reduced 40 hours of mixing to a few minutes.  
 
So again, your argument is just like the Captain America one. People pointing out that Captain America shouldn't be able to perform all of his feats, they are PIS. He should only be peak human, yet he runs sprints at 60 MPH for 5 minutes straight. So now it's the Hulk who performs thunderclaps that levels cars, buildings and sand off of beaches but he's not suppose to be fast because "I don't want him to or think he should" even though there are plenty of feats and instances that show so. 
#50 Edited by SlimJ87D (9593 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr_Ingenuity: Thanks, I have those scans right in front of me, and those were the ones I was about to post. he blitzes through and rips two machine apart before the people a few feet behind him can see what is going on. This is indestructible Hulk #1