Destruction vs. The Anti-Monitor

Destruction of the Endless:

vs.

The Anti-Monitor (Crisis on Infinite Earths):

Who wins?

Destruction has very few feats. The whole point of his character is that he gave up his role. Of all the Endless, Destruction and Despair have the least amount of feats.

Going by that, Anti-Monitor.

he is destruction personified, anti monitor destroys, of course the endless guy wins, anti monitor is almost stalemated by spectre

Anti-Monitor has better feats.

Still an interesting fight though.

@jwwprod: Feat wise sure Anti Monitor wins but what can he really do to Destruction? The events of COIE should have powered Destruction up to unimaginable levels if he was present.

he is were destruction is, and he already is unimaginably powerful, nigh-omnipresent

Destruction

Destruction

True.

Bump!

even though the anti monitor is powerful, he is not enough to beat an unbound magic stealing spectre, much less someone leagues more powerful than him. destruction is just what he does. pure destruction. he is the forth most powerful endless. or third. do not bump these threads please

@loseup: He was the Destruction of one universe personified

The Endless are merely patterns. The Endless are ideas. The Endless are wave functions. The Endless are repeating motifs. The Endless are echoes of darkness, and nothing more...And even our existences are brief and bounded. None of us will last longer than this version of the Universe.

--Destruction

AM, on the other hand, ate many, many universes

@betatesthighlander1: not one universe, they are mutiversal if not omniversal. yeah, omniversal because they control both vertigo multiverse and the dc multiverse.

@betatesthighlander1:

Eh, in the same arc Death disagreed with his description of the Endless. So I wouldn't trust Destruction's word on his own existence, given that he has very little knowledge as to his own purpose, hence why he left to begin with.

The Endless have all been called multiversal at other instances, not to mention that a small portion of Dream's powers were capable of creating/destroying universes at a whim.

While this is not a testament to Destruction's ability, I find it hard to believe that someone like the Anti-Monitor would be able to destroy the personification of Destruction with brute force.

It's a bit counter productive imho.

OK, you are lying

blatantly lying

the Endless are not multiversal, this has been stated on multiple occasions,. they have domain over a single universe, as was stated by Destruction

please know what your talking about before saying it

@betatesthighlander1: it seems that you are quoting wiki and had not actually read the sandman or JLA files. then you can ME a liar. man, you are funnily weird

@betatesthighlander1: now I read the second part of your, well, argument. he meant he abandoned his REALM, not his universe. and he has influence on the DC omniverse.

funny you mention her, because Death has stated

• When the first living thing existed, I was there, waiting. When the last living thing dies, my job is finished. I'll put the chairs on tables, turn out the lights and lock the universe behind me when I leave.
  • Death, in Sandman #20: "Façade

SHe also agrees that the Endless only have domain over one universe

when have they ever been called multiversal?

I mean, he destroyed tons of other universal personifications of destruction with brute fore, not sure how this would be different

I have read Sandman, and geus what...There is no mention of a mulrtiverse

DC didn't even have a multiverse when that series was published

and no, I didn't read JLA files, but you don't seem very big on offering factual information, so I'm gonna ask for some solid evidence before I buy it even a little bit

what?

who abandonned his realm?

are you talking about Destruction...because he was talking about the Endless as a whole when he talked of them being a crystallization of the universe

@betatesthighlander1: just read the JLA files and this

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/original-ion-vs-destruction-the-endless-26392/?page=1

@baron_von_santa: referring to someone else's anecdote is not evidence

@betatesthighlander1: it is better than referring to wiki

@betatesthighlander1:

funny you mention her, because Death has stated

• When the first living thing existed, I was there, waiting. When the last living thing dies, my job is finished. I'll put the chairs on tables, turn out the lights and lock the universe behind me when I leave.
  • Death, in Sandman #20: "Façade

SHe also agrees that the Endless only have domain over one universe

Nowhere does that quote imply that she's only universal. It simply says that once the universe ends, she will be there to clean up everything. Nowhere does it state that she would cease to exist once that universe is over.

when have they ever been called multiversal?

The fact that the dreamstone allowed for the creation of infinite universes and destruction of them at a whim wouldn't insinuate that? The Red King only had a small portion of Dream's total power and Death is stronger than he is. (JLA Classified 33-36)

Destiny's domain has been stated to be over all universes (History of the DC Universe, 1986).

Madame Xanadu (Issue 6) states that Death is "the eldest of them all, the one who trumps and defines all existence".

Silk Man tries to escape Death by entering a realm outside of space and time, only to have Lucifer tell him that Death would still claim him irregardless.

All credit goes to CitizenBane, since he already explained everything to Cadence, when he claimed that the Endless were only universal as well.

All info can be found in this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/the-endless-vs-chaos-gods-690617/?page=2

I mean, he destroyed tons of other universal personifications of destruction with brute fore, not sure how this would be different

When has he destroyed any personification of anything? He simply destroyed universes over an undisclosed amount of time. It would be like trying to destroy Oblivion by hitting him. The very act of destroying something or attempting is within Destruction's domain.

every time anti monitor does something, boom, destruction.

@baron_von_santa: I was referring to the seventh volume of Sandman, Brief Lives, Delirium and Morpheus go on the roadtrip to find Destruction......Destruction explains that the Endless aren't everything they say they are......

@betatesthighlander1: he just said that they have no right to interfere, not powerless to. oh, then he said that their power is not limited to just their names.. they even hold relative nigh omnipotent power over their ant

because she specifies a universe in her speech, if she were multiversal, she would ahve said her job was to close teh door to the multiverse

1. Kind of keptical, seems like PIS

2. that seems to disagree with what was stated about him in the last issue of teh series

3. At that point in time DC only had one universe, because, as you will recall, AM ate the rest

4. a statement from the lord of lies is not a fact

5. someone else's anecdotes are not facts

OK, have you even a single pice of evidence taht Destrction's powers work taht way?

because, as you will recall, Deaths of the Universe is not Destruction's Domain, it is Death's.

so, no, I don't think him eating a universe would feed Destruction

as for periods of time, he didn't seem to take more that a few minutes to eat Earth 3

no, that is not how it works

@betatesthighlander1: dc is left with 52, get your facts right. and vertigo is not part of the dc multiverse, dc multiverse plus vertigo multiverse is dc omniverse, and it seems you are arguing with everyone and you are the only one who thinks the endless are universal

@betatesthighlander1: then how? try to twist what they said again. it is SHOWN that they are omniversal before, not stated

Argumentum ad Populum my friend, Argumentum ad Populum

@betatesthighlander1: just because you use big words that does not mean you know about dc and vertigo. appeal to the people is what you meant you said, then just say it.

@betatesthighlander1:

1. Kind of keptical, seems like PIS

2. that seems to disagree with what was stated about him in the last issue of teh series

3. At that point in time DC only had one universe, because, as you will recall, AM ate the rest

4. a statement from the lord of lies is not a fact

5. someone else's anecdotes are not facts

1. I don't see how it's PIS.

2. Contradictions always exist given that DC and Vertigo don't explain away the differences set up by both universes.

3. Uh, I guess the fact that an anti-matter universe still existed evaded your mind? Or that the Vertigo universe was still present as well. Not to mention there was the paradise reality that Superboy Prime was in or the real world, which is considered an alternate universe as well, in order to explain how writers can appear in comics. There is also areas like Limbo, Hell, etc. present.

4. I see no reason why Lucifer would lie about a man dying, given that it doesn't further his agenda or warrant him lying to begin with. To simply assume he's lying every time he opens his mouth would mean a lot of stated canon facts are not true then.

Not to mention that Destiny has dominion over Lucifer's actions also goes to show their level of power. He already knew what Lucifer was going to do before he did it, such as when he burned Destiny's book to a crisp.

5. Yet somehow your anecdotes are fact? A little hypocritical don't you think? If I had to choose someone's words to believe in, I would go with the guy who has a very in-depth knowledge of DC and Vertigo, and is universally accepted on comicvine as one of the best debaters out there.

@omgomgwtfwtf: he reminds me of baby face Nelson; at war with the world

Vertigo isn't its own universe. Some Vertigo titles take place in DC. Sandman takes place in DC, as shown when it featured cameos of Mr. Miracle, Martian Manhunter, Superman, Batman, Phantom Stranger, and others.

One can make the argument that the Endless are multiversal, but that fact that they are in Vertigo and DC means nothing.

@betatesthighlander1:

because she specifies a universe in her speech, if she were multiversal, she would ahve said her job was to close teh door to the multiverse

She states when the universe ends that she is going to pick up the pieces and close the door. Once again, I ask you where does it state that she is limited only to one universe?

I could easily say that once you leave this room, I'm going to clean it up and close the lights. Yet it doesn't mean that I'm limited to this one room, nor that I simply cease to exist once you leave the room.

You're insinuating something that is not even stated.

OK, have you even a single pice of evidence taht Destrction's powers work taht way?

because, as you will recall, Deaths of the Universe is not Destruction's Domain, it is Death's.

so, no, I don't think him eating a universe would feed Destruction

What evidence do I need? If you read the Sandman series, they stated that he represents Destruction, from the tiniest atom being torn apart to the biggest cataclysmic event that you can think of.

As for the end of the Universe not being in Destruction's domain, I don't see how that's relevant.

The end of the universe is the actual end of everything. Destruction is not the end of everything, it is simply the ruin of something. I can destroy a building, but it doesn't mean it will cease to exist. It would simply change from being a building into a pile of rubble.

as for periods of time, he didn't seem to take more that a few minutes to eat Earth 3

I don't see how this has to do with anything, given that he was eating an near-infinite amount of universes. Even if it took him only a second to eat each universe, it would still take a near-infinite amount of time to accomplish what he did.

The fact of the matter is that he took an undisclosed amount of time to shrink the multiverse into a handful of universes.

@jedixman: oh god, I can not believe I am meeting you! you are on my top 5 list of people I want to meet on comic vine, number one being Atphantom

anyway, the dc mainstream have never met lucifer and the likes. lucifer have been on earth but he has never met doc fate or zantanna and John Constantine have never met shazam too.

they rectonned the whole dc omniverse in new 52 so that everything is collapsed into 52 universes, less than the Ben 10 omniverse

1. Gaiman seemed to paint the Endless as universal whenver he could

2. OK than

3. Pretty sure Vertigo took place in the same universe. can you name anything to suggest Sandman took place outside the regular DC universe?

Heaven, Hell, Etc. are realms not universes, they exist perpendicular to their own universes, and are not multiversal plains, so that isnt actually much evidence either

4. And it is also stupid to assume literally everything the lord of lies says is a fact, any other character it would be debatable, but this is Lucifer we're talking about

presuming it was true, a place beyond time and space is not the same thing as another universe, it just describes a plane of existance different from the physical cosmos

5. I mean, your engaging in a Argumentum ab auctoritate

If you want someoen else's argument, call them over

as it stands, that isn't really a debating strategy

@omgomgwtfwtf: he has never read it before. when he pretended to have read it and stated something, you can tell because the level of understanding is limited to the surface, if he read the book, then he would not phrase it like that.

again he does this. why not use English ? Argument from authority. it is kind of sad though

By feats, Anti-Monitor.

By theory, Destruction.

Lucifer and Michael have both met with the Spectre. Lucifer has also appeared in Etrigan's series. Also, the Justice League met Dream (Daniel). All of this is prior to the reboot.

Just because they haven't met Zatanna or Fate doesn't actually mean anything. As I have shown, they have met one another. The fact is that most people are not aware of the Endless.

Also, before the reboot, Death of the Endless appeared in Action Comics.

she says "the" not "a" which strongly implies taht she isn't even aware of other universes (whuich didnt exist at that point)

and she was summing up her entire existence with that statementment, she begins describimg her beginnings, so it would be rational to assume she is ending with her ending. you wouldn't just some up your entire existance and end it wiyth a humdrum activity for no reason, if you described your entire life and than said "And eventually I would close that door" that would be a hilariously anticlimatic ending to your summary.

I am insinuating something pretty strongly implied

I ahve read teh series, when has he ever demonstrated that power?

Its relevant because AM destroys universes

And AM ends universes, glad you can agree

Ok, so you acknowledge taht ending universes is beyond destruction?

and you acknowledge that AM ends universes?

@jedixman: in demon knights? because that is recton. and they can meet. they are separate multiverses, even dc and marvel and that other one has crossovers, albeit not cannon. the marvel multiverse and the other marvel universes together are called the marvel omniverse, just like dc and vertigo together are the DC omniverse

In the Demon, back in the early 90s.

@jedixman: ohyeah. one of my friends from college have them and I have read it before, but that was a long time ago. I forgot it all but I remember it was real good

Even though it was a long time ago, it's still valid. The events in the Sandman took place in the DC universe. In fact, they referenced events that were happening in the Justice League comics at the time, specifically their base.

@jedixman: they are I did not say they are not. merely I forgot the contents

but if marvel has the mainstream and the other universes, why does not dc have it?

marvel multiverse + other universes = marvel omniverse

dc multiverse + vertigo multiverse = DC omniverse

in theory this should be valid, though both should be called multiverse because there is nothing bigger than infinite universes.

@betatesthighlander1:

1. Gaiman may have created the Endless, but a lot has happened since he left the series. For example, Stan Lee states that he created Thor to be stronger than the Hulk, but there is still a raging debate as to who is the stronger of the two.

This is the problem all comics get into since there are multiple writers, each who have their own opinions on subject matters, some which may differ from preceding writers.

3. I can't think of anything of the top of my head for Sandman, but there are contradictory appearances to the Presence as portrayed in Vertigo, when compared to DC. Also the fact that certain events that happened in DC are not mentioned at all in the Vertigo series were weird at times. Not to mention that Satan has appeared in numerous DC titles, but is not affiliated to Lucifer in any way shape or form. An issue that DC never really fixed, like they did with the First of the Fallen in Hellraiser.

They may be realms/dimensions, but honestly, the difference between the two is not substantial enough to change my point. If Death of the Endless can reap someone, while they are outside the boundaries of that specific universe, it would imply that she is beyond universal.

4. If the plane of existence is outside that particular universe, then it is separate. When Franklin Richard created his own universe under his bed sheets, it was indeed a separate world from Earth-616. Given that it was not connected to it any way, shape, or form. It's existence was not linked to that of the main Marvel universe.

5. Argumentum ab auctoritate would imply that I have no understanding on the subject matter, which is not true. I was merely citing Citizenbane as the source of my info, just as how you would cite any source when you are borrowing information.

Also it would only really be Argumentum ab auctoritate if I was asking Citizenbane to defend my stance, because I was unable to do so myself.

she says "the" not "a" which strongly implies taht she isn't even aware of other universes (whuich didnt exist at that point)

and she was summing up her entire existence with that statementment, she begins describimg her beginnings, so it would be rational to assume she is ending with her ending. you wouldn't just some up your entire existance and end it wiyth a humdrum activity for no reason, if you described your entire life and than said "And eventually I would close that door" that would be a hilariously anticlimatic ending to your summary.

I am insinuating something pretty strongly implied

She was summing up her duties and what her role was in the universe. I really don't see how the use of a definite pronoun or indefinite pronoun really changes the significance of the sentence. Given that the parameters of the entire series surrounded a single universe, it would only be fitting for her to speak about that universe as opposed to another one.

I ahve read teh series, when has he ever demonstrated that power?

Its relevant because AM destroys universes

And AM ends universes, glad you can agree

He has never demonstrated that power because he's rather featless, but it has nothing to do with power, but what he represents. All the Endless represent an idea that is nearly impossible to destroy. For example, the first Despair was 'killed' when someone tried to extinguish all despair from the universe, yet she was replaced by another one right away. Just as how Daniel Hall became the new Dream after Morpheus was reaped by Death.

As for your last part, I never said that the Anti-Monitor was not a universe destroyer. I was merely saying that it took him a great deal of time to whittle down the multiverse, as opposed to someone like the Beyonder, who was destroying countless worlds in mere moments.

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While I think this is an interesting debate we're having, I feel the need to respond any longer would be a waste of both our times. This is no way meant to be rude, but I tend to dislike dragging out debates if all our points are already given. It seems it would be best if perhaps you made a rebuttal to my posts, and I simply left it as that.

This wouldn't be the first time debates dragged on for no apparent reason other than that both sides didn't know when to quit lol.