#1 Posted by BigCimmerian (8571 posts) - - Show Bio

- Both Despero and Darkseid are bloodlusted, no omega beams for Darkseid

- Team is consisted of Beta Ray Bill, Post Annihilation Surfer, Full confidence Gladiator, Void Sentry, Thor and WB Hulk

- Team is bloodlusted, Thor has belt of strength, who wins and why?

#2 Posted by Bo88gdan (4414 posts) - - Show Bio

Марвелов тим побеђуje :)

#3 Posted by BigCimmerian (8571 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan said:

Марвелов тим побеђуje :)

Нисам очекивао другачији одговор од тебе :D

#4 Posted by spawn_123 (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel team wins Post Annihilation Surfer, Full confidence Gladiator, Void Sentry, are not a joke

#5 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

Despero vs. Surfer in Astral plane
Void takes out DS and then Despero.

#6 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

Despero and Darkseid take this. PC Darkseid is not the powerhouse he was pre-crisis....but with Despero? I don't see how team Marvel wins? Particularly with Robert's fragile psyche and Despero's TP? Team DC takes this.

#7 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
@Malevolent1 said:
Despero and Darkseid take this. PC Darkseid is not the powerhouse he was pre-crisis....but with Despero? I don't see how team Marvel wins? Particularly with Robert's fragile psyche and Despero's TP? Team DC takes this.
Surfer is unbeatable in astral plane.  And Sentry would have to be against Void here, when they aren't.
#8 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Malevolent1 said:
Despero and Darkseid take this. PC Darkseid is not the powerhouse he was pre-crisis....but with Despero? I don't see how team Marvel wins? Particularly with Robert's fragile psyche and Despero's TP? Team DC takes this.
Surfer is unbeatable in astral plane. And Sentry would have to be against Void here, when they aren't.

Surfer's prone to hyperbole, and he's hardly ever used the Astral Plane. If he was really unbeatable there, wouldn't he have beaten people on it more than, like, twice?

#9 Posted by blackadamFTW (7867 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

Despero vs. Surfer in Astral plane Void takes out DS and then Despero.

How many times has Surfer fought someone in the astral plane? I'd like to know.

Also, Void vs Despero should end up in Void being BFR'd by Darkseid.

#10 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5119 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 wins. Post annihilation SS puts team over the top.

#11 Edited by dondave (38407 posts) - - Show Bio

Despero controls Gladiator,Thor,Beta Ray Bill and Hulk onto their side.Then proceed to fight Sentry & Silver Surfer

#12 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

#13 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Malevolent1 said:
Despero and Darkseid take this. PC Darkseid is not the powerhouse he was pre-crisis....but with Despero? I don't see how team Marvel wins? Particularly with Robert's fragile psyche and Despero's TP? Team DC takes this.
Surfer is unbeatable in astral plane. And Sentry would have to be against Void here, when they aren't.

Ah. You're referring to this:

I always took that to mean it was simply the source of the power cosmic...which never really harmonized (in my mind...) with the statement that the power cosmic was a reference to the whole universe's ambient energies.

#14 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
@dondave said:

Despero controls Gladiator,Thor,Beta Ray Bill and Hulk onto their side.Then proceed to fight Sentry & Silver Surfer

Despero won't do it, since he will fight with Surfer in Astral Plane. And scan above just prove that he can't win.
 
@blackadamFTW said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

Despero vs. Surfer in Astral plane Void takes out DS and then Despero.

How many times has Surfer fought someone in the astral plane? I'd like to know.

Also, Void vs Despero should end up in Void being BFR'd by Darkseid.


No OB for DS, look at the OP. 
I am not sure how many. Vermin didn't even try to affect him, he won with Dire Wraiths'' queen and this demon above, as well as he broke Godess control and resisted Moondragon's TP in the same story. There was also somekind of psionic affection on Galador, when Dire Wraiths attacked Spaceknights and Surfer calmed them down.
#15 Posted by Simon_the_digger (3061 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2

#16 Edited by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackadamFTW said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

Despero vs. Surfer in Astral plane Void takes out DS and then Despero.

How many times has Surfer fought someone in the astral plane? I'd like to know.

Also, Void vs Despero should end up in Void being BFR'd by Darkseid.

Two times that i know of, once against Prof X where they only talked , and second against an un-named alien in the series In Thy Name, and that is the series where surfer made a one off statement that Astral Plane is the source of his powers and that he cannot be harmed here rather than be beaten. There have been other instances where he has dealt with a telepath, but i think those are the only 2 instance with "astral plane" that i am familiar with.

so what he actually says is "You could leach me dry with ease out there, but this plane is source o the power cosmic, you cant hurt me here", which i interpreted as Surfer cant be physically drained in the astral plane rather than he is absolutely unbeatable.

Also TP has worked just fine on surfer in quite a few occasions. Loki rather easily entered his mind, The Other one shotted him with a TP bolt, Psycho Man had surfer crying in pain because of his TP before Rulk chopped his head off, Supernalia using celestial mindwave has mindcontrolled Surfer, Pyscho man has mindcontrolled surfer and made him evil and fight Spiderman, Hebe made Surfer see Shalla Bal instead of Sersi. There are just too many instances of Surfer going down by TP, for me to somehow interpret this sentence as I am unbeatable in astral plane.

Agree? Disagree??

#17 Posted by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1 said:

Despero and Darkseid take this. PC Darkseid is not the powerhouse he was pre-crisis....but with Despero? I don't see how team Marvel wins? Particularly with Robert's fragile psyche and Despero's TP? Team DC takes this.
#18 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

@blackadamFTW said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

Despero vs. Surfer in Astral plane Void takes out DS and then Despero.

How many times has Surfer fought someone in the astral plane? I'd like to know.

Also, Void vs Despero should end up in Void being BFR'd by Darkseid.

Two times that i know of, once against Prof X where they only talked , and second against an un-named alien in the series In Thy Name, and that is the series where surfer made a one off statement that Astral Plane is the source of his powers and that he cannot be harmed here rather than be beaten. There have been other instances where he has dealt with a telepath, but i think those are the only 2 instance with "astral plane" that i am familiar with.

so what he actually says is "You could leach me dry with ease out there, but this plane is source o the power cosmic, you cant hurt me here", which i interpreted as Surfer cant be physically drained in the astral plane rather than he is absolutely unbeatable.

Also TP has worked just fine on surfer in quite a few occasions. Loki rather easily entered his mind, The Other one shotted him with a TP bolt, Psycho Man had surfer crying in pain because of his TP before Rulk chopped his head off, Supernalia using celestial mindwave has mindcontrolled Surfer, Pyscho man has mindcontrolled surfer and made him evil and fight Spiderman, Hebe made Surfer see Shalla Bal instead of Sersi. There are just too many instances of Surfer going down by TP, for me to somehow interpret this sentence as I am unbeatable in astral plane.

Agree? Disagree??

1.How he can be physically present in AP? ;-) This monster tried to harm him with completly no effect.
2.Magic  =/= TP. Look at Thor, who is also immune to normal TP, while he can't resist magic control too often. So Hebe and Loki could do it.
3.The Other could stand against Galactus, like Hunger. They aren't limited to one plane of existance, so it is possible that even with power of whole Astral Plane Surfer would be taken out. 
4.Is Psycho Man using TP or is he using somekind of pheromones? Something similar to Tuttinax. Besides, this Surfer clearley wasn't in this level of power or connection to power cosmic. A specially that he could be so easily drained. Remember that it is Surfer from the beginning of him being a herald.
5.Here are some Surfer TP feats:
A)fight with Dire Wraiths queen, she was a psionic vampire, yet she couldn't handle Surfer's mind in Annihilators 03: 

B)Surfer calmed down Galandorians in Annihilation 02: 

C)Watcher claimed that Goddess TP is beyond his knowledge, later Surfer breakes her control over him and resist to Moondragon's TP:
#19 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

1.How he can be physically present in AP? ;-) This monster tried to harm him with completly no effect.

Certainly not that i remember of, no. He doesnt do anything to surfer in the Astral plane, at all.

2.Magic =/= TP. Look at Thor, who is also immune to normal TP, while he can't resist magic control too often. So Hebe and Loki could do it.

Thats not true, if Loki can enter surfer's mind that has to be TP isnt it? Also Thor isnt immune to TP, i do not know where you are getting that from, heck even Doc Ock mindcontrolled Thor during Worlds End, which of course is canon

3.The Other could stand against Galactus, like Hunger. They aren't limited to one plane of existance, so it is possible that even with power of whole Astral Plane Surfer would be taken out.

The Others are extra-dimensional beings. As the Other prime , which is how it is often referred, can stand against Galactus it was the minion that TPed Surfer.

Silver Surfer Volume 3, Issue 130

4.Is Psycho Man using TP or is he using somekind of pheromones? Something similar to Tuttinax. Besides, this Surfer clearley wasn't in this level of power or connection to power cosmic. A specially that he could be so easily drained. Remember that it is Surfer from the beginning of him being a herald.

Psycho Man has a device called Psycho Box (not very creative) and he uses that to control people. Its the same box he used on surfer twice and both the times it worked.

Hulk 11

Certainly shows his mind can be breached.

5.Here are some Surfer TP feats:

Once you start using TP feats from Surfer to suggest he can resist Despero's mind control you are at a loss. Martian Manhunter has far better TP feats than Surfer yet Despero has mindcontrolled him three times.

A)fight with Dire Wraiths queen, she was a psionic vampire, yet she couldn't handle Surfer's mind in Annihilators 03:

I have read annihilation and i think you are mis-intepreting it. Dire Wraith does control Surfer for a while and tries to show him all their telepathic distress. Surfer physically moves away , thereby breaking the connection with her tongue.

B)Surfer calmed down Galandorians in Annihilation 02:

That is not a TP resistance feat.

C)Watcher claimed that Goddess TP is beyond his knowledge, later Surfer breakes her control over him and resist to Moondragon's TP:

I think you are mis-interpreting this instance as well. Watcher is talking about Goddess's transmission frequency, and that would make sense given she had 9 cosmic cube during Infinity Crusade. This is Moondragon trying to attack surfer, and all she actually does is hit her with a TP blast, rather than try to mindcontrol him. And he resists.

Also Moondragon has fail of a telepathic blast most often. She failed use it on Spiderman because he was too fast for her o_O , she tried to affected Thanos twice and lost, she tried a similar blast on Thor during Blood and Thunder and failed. But later under Thanos's guidance she was then able to seperate the Valkarie that Thor had made up in the real world. Shows she has great potential for TP, but her TP blast are just bad.

#20 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall:
2. Loki is using magic and that works differently. As Galactus said  - he don't understand magic. Quasar also was controlled by Enchantress, while Overmind couldn't affect him at all.
2.b)I have to read that issue, I don't read Spider-Man usually.
3.As it is stated in these scans - they're using The Other's power, thet're not on their own there. 
4.Psycho Man isn't controlling them, he is boosting one of their feelings. Exactly like Tuttinax, Spider Woman/Daken, Fear Lords or Serpent. 
5.I was using TP-feats to prove that Surfer has psionic abilities and that his fight with this demon wasn't his only showing. 
6.Watcher'swords proves that her TP is different, which means that Surfer could be controlled there, yet he still was able to resist it. Like Thor.  And Moondragon's Psi-Blast aren't weak, just Thor and Surfer can't be controlled in this way, their TP defences is too good. Moondragon in the same comic (Infinity Crusade 03) took out Xavier in way she couldn't do with Thor and Surfer. And all there actions were made in the same story.
#21 Posted by Saren (25890 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Also Thor isnt immune to TP, i do not know where you are getting that from, heck even Doc Ock mindcontrolled Thor during Worlds End, which of course is canon

There's also the fact that Xavier shut down Thor's mind with zero effort just a few weeks after his vaunted mental block against Phoenix Emma --- whose only telepathy feats while Phoenix-amped involve getting blocked by people for some strange reason, as was the case with both Thor and Rulk. Xavier then erased all memory of his involvement in the battle from the minds of all the Avengers gathered, Thor included. What I found funniest about the whole thing was the fact that Spider-Woman had better TP resistance than Thor did.

Then there was the Tutinax incident where he beat Thor by weakening him with projected fear (Tutinax's telepathy has been shown to work by digging into his target's head and pulling out their nightmares) and the famous Moondragon incident where she made him her slave.

Moderator
#22 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Killemall: 2. Loki is using magic and that works differently. As Galactus said - he don't understand magic. Quasar also was controlled by Enchantress, while Overmind couldn't affect him at all.

I think the point was his mine isnt immune to telepathy, and can be entered by say magic in this case, or technology.

2.b)I have to read that issue, I don't read Spider-Man usually.

Fair enough, also Thor was unable to weild his hammer while mind controlled because he became unworthy, which was new to me.

3.As it is stated in these scans - they're using The Other's power, thet're not on their own there.

they arnet using the power of the others, these aliens are called Others. Thats about it. Is there any particular instance where they say they are using powers from The Other, the extradimensional, multi eyed giant bad a$$ of an entity?

4.Psycho Man isn't controlling them, he is boosting one of their feelings. Exactly like Tuttinax, Spider Woman/Daken, Fear Lords or Serpent.

Doesnt that show his mind isnt beyong being controlled? tutinax hasnt done anything to Surfer, he did so to Thor :p

5.I was using TP-feats to prove that Surfer has psionic abilities and that his fight with this demon wasn't his only showing.

I think you are missing the point, the point being Surfer can try and drag him in astral plane or otherwise, he doesnt have enough TP to beat or survive Despero's TP.

6.Watcher'swords proves that her TP is different, which means that Surfer could be controlled there, yet he still was able to resist it. Like Thor. And Moondragon's Psi-Blast aren't weak, just Thor and Surfer can't be controlled in this way, their TP defences is too good. Moondragon in the same comic (Infinity Crusade 03) took out Xavier in way she couldn't do with Thor and Surfer. And all there actions were made in the same story.

I think my explanation was poor lets try again:

If you notice Watcher is talking about the goddess, rather than Moondragon. Her telepathy would be different as she is linked to Adam Warlock so its something that affects soul as opposed to mind, and she has a whole assemblage of cosmic cube.

While the person who is blasting Surfer is Moondragon, that also from all the way out in Goddesses world , far far away.

Also she just hits him with a TP blast much like she did Thor.

I for one see no reason why Surer should be able to resist a full fledged blast from Moondragon specially when she has mind gem, coz that the telepathic ability of a god.

Also Thor really doesnt have much a TP defense contrary to what people believe.

The only thing she does to Xavier is make him scream, thats about it

#23 Posted by Nefarious (21211 posts) - - Show Bio

Da Team winz.

#24 Posted by capall2 (1428 posts) - - Show Bio

Despero and Darkseid's combined tp powerset should be greater than what team Sufer can actully resist here...

#26 Posted by beatboks1 (7305 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure on outcome hete just yet ( will watch debate 4 a bit). I will however point out the Despero has two ways to control people that are not TP related. his hypnotic stare and his soul possession. All the TP resistance in the universe doesn't help afainst these. So even if SS can defeat him psionically in astral plane he'd have to get him there quick enough to get arond those and find sime way of keeping him there for the battle.

#27 Posted by jobbernos (1420 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1 said:

Despero and Darkseid take this. PC Darkseid is not the powerhouse he was pre-crisis....but with Despero? I don't see how team Marvel wins? Particularly with Robert's fragile psyche and Despero's TP? Team DC takes this.
#28 Posted by lol (5388 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Posted by reaverlation (16358 posts) - - Show Bio

Despero TP's BRB,Thor,Surfer,Gladiator,and Hulk while Darkseid sends Void to the source wall

#30 Posted by lol (5388 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by dondave (38407 posts) - - Show Bio

I still stand by my initial comment

#32 Posted by laflux (16770 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

I still stand by my initial comment

I can agree with younger dondave too

#33 Posted by Jbourne_32 (1446 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel Team Stomps. Here's why. Void Sentry and Surfer will be going for Despero, since surfer has telepathic powers mind rape isn't an option, not to mention both Void Sentry and Surfer are faster than light. As those two proceed to kick the crap out of Despero. Darkseid then gets completely overwhelmed by the sheer power of Thor, Full confidence glads, BRB, and WB Hulk.

#34 Posted by dondave (38407 posts) - - Show Bio

@jbourne_32 Martian Manhunter has telepathic powers too. Far greater than that of Silver Surfer. It still didn't stop Despero from mindr*aping him and even mind controlling him. They doesn't stand a chance of resisting him

#35 Posted by laflux (16770 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@jbourne_32 Martian Manhunter has telepathic powers too. Far greater than that of Silver Surfer. It still didn't stop Despero from mindr*aping him and even mind controlling him. They doesn't stand a chance of resisting him

you pretty much failed censoring rape here :P

#36 Posted by XiiX (8698 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@dondave said:

I still stand by my initial comment

I can agree with younger dondave too

#37 Edited by dondave (38407 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by Hulkman123 (1706 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@jbourne_32 Martian Manhunter has telepathic powers too. Far greater than that of Silver Surfer. It still didn't stop Despero from mindr*aping him and even mind controlling him. They doesn't stand a chance of resisting him

They can at least resist Despero's TP for a while, however Despero or DS cannot resist Voids Matter Manipulation.

Marvel team stomps.

#39 Posted by eternityx (2782 posts) - - Show Bio

Mismatch, Marvel team stomps.

#40 Posted by reaverlation (16358 posts) - - Show Bio

@hulkman123: No they can't. The team is damn near hopeless at resisting Despero's TP.

#41 Posted by Hulkman123 (1706 posts) - - Show Bio

@hulkman123: No they can't. The team is damn near hopeless at resisting Despero's TP.

And Despero is helpless against Void's matter manipulation.

#42 Posted by reaverlation (16358 posts) - - Show Bio

@hulkman123: Guess what will happen 1st?Void falling to Despero's telepathy

#43 Edited by eternityx (2782 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation said:@hulkman123: Guess what will happen 1st?Void falling to Despero's telepathy

Nope. Surfer or Gladiator blitz Despero, or Void disintegrates him with his mm due to his superior reaction/thinking speed.

#44 Posted by reaverlation (16358 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternityx: Doubt it.Both Surfer and Kallark will fall to Despero's telepathy with little to no effort.Same with Void

#45 Edited by eternityx (2782 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation:

Same argument can be made for Despero and Darkseid falling to Void's matter manipulation.

#46 Posted by Jbourne_32 (1446 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave as stated below Void can transmute Despero and so can surfer. Surfer can project him into astral plane. Void and Surfer beat the crap out of him befor he knows whats going on. SS uses black hole Despero goes bye bye. Silver Surfer and Void Sentry are way out of this guys league speed wise and are definitely more versatile.

#47 Posted by lol (5388 posts) - - Show Bio