#1 Posted by chiq (1965 posts) - - Show Bio

Dormammu, Mephisto, Umar, Blackheart and Hellstrom

VS

Odin, Bor, Hela Thor and Loki

Everyone at full power and fighting to their best. To the death ( if some of them can't die then KO)

Who wins the individual matchups and who's team wins as a whole?

Dormammu vs Odin

Mephisto vs Bor

Umar vs Hela

Blackheart vs Thor

Hellstrom vs Loki

#2 Edited by ShootingNova (17199 posts) - - Show Bio

Dormammu claimed to be around skyfather level, but Odin has better feats. I don't think I'd like to say Dormammu has a chance of winning this yet.

Bor wins.

I'm not sure on this one. I don't know a whole lot about either.

Is Blackheart revealing his true form?

Hellstrom, maybe?

#3 Posted by oceanmaster21 (8039 posts) - - Show Bio

demons win bc loki wud aid the deoms to get rid of thir n odin plus the deomns r to jyst as powerful as the gods

#4 Posted by BigCimmerian (8314 posts) - - Show Bio

demons win bc loki wud aid the deoms to get rid of thir n odin plus the deomns r to jyst as powerful as the gods

Mephisto, Blackheart and Hellstrom are non factors, gods win because of Odin.

#5 Posted by oceanmaster21 (8039 posts) - - Show Bio

@bigcimmerian: cnt help it im a blackheart fanboy but i think loki wud aid the demons n that helps demons

#6 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

Dormammu vs Odin

Mephisto vs Bor

Umar vs Hela

Blackheart vs Thor

Hellstrom vs Loki

In other, I am not sure. But thanks to Mephisto's win, Team 1 should take it.

#7 Edited by Killemall (18580 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont see how Odin could possibly kill Dormammu or Bor manage to kill Mephisto , given one always lives as long as there is someone who believes in Dormammu in the whole universe, while the other is a class 2 demon who cant die of conventional means and Bor has shown nothing in his arsenal that would be a threat to Mephisto's life.

The way i see it.

Round 1 : Dormammu, while Odin has better feats Odin cant kill Dormammu, Dormammu can kill Odin and its not like there is a huge gap between the two in terms of power level.

Round 2: Mephisto would win same as round 1.

Round 3: Umar, she is Dormammu's equal in terms of power, Hela a good deal short of Odin.

Round 4: PIS aside Blackheart nearly everytime

Round 5: Close, pretty close is what i am thinking but i am not as well versed with Helstorm so will wait for someone to add to that.

#8 Edited by Killemall (18580 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh i missed the team vs team, team Demons would win. Odin is not going to be able to take Dormammu and Umar together.

#9 Posted by BigCimmerian (8314 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh i missed the team vs team, team Demons would win. Odin is not going to be able to take Dormammu and Umar together.

BUT ODIN IS SKYFADER!!!!!!!!1

#10 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont see how Odin could possibly kill Dormammu or Bor manage to kill Mephisto , given one always lives as long as there is someone who believes in Dormammu in the whole universe, while the other is a class 2 demon who cant die of conventional means and Bor has shown nothing in his arsenal that would be a threat to Mephisto's life.

The way i see it.

Round 1 : Dormammu, while Odin has better feats Odin cant kill Dormammu, Dormammu can kill Odin and its not like there is a huge gap between the two in terms of power level.

Round 2: Mephisto would win same as round 1.

Round 3: Umar, she is Dormammu's equal in terms of power, Hela a good deal short of Odin.

Round 4: PIS aside Blackheart nearly everytime

Round 5: Close, pretty close is what i am thinking but i am not as well versed with Helstorm so will wait for someone to add to that.

1.I am not sure how immortality gives Dormammu advantage there. Deadpool is also immortal, but he isn't a threat, to let say Colossus.

2.I agree, but Mephisto was almost putted down Alejandra, who ripped his heart from his body. In Hell.

3.Umar's feats?

4.As above - I've heard a lot about him, but IDK any of his feats outside of hell. That is why I couldn't pick a winner there (and in Umar vs Hela).

5.Similar there.

#11 Posted by Killemall (18580 posts) - - Show Bio


1.I am not sure how immortality gives Dormammu advantage there. Deadpool is also immortal, but he isn't a threat, to let say Colossus.

Thats more to do with i did not see the (if they cant die KO part).

2.I agree, but Mephisto was almost putted down Alejandra, who ripped his heart from his body. In Hell.

Alexendra had a huge boost in Ghost Rider 07 from the old rider and his magical amulet.

3.Umar's feats?

She has soloed Classic Dr. Strange and Ancient One together, with their only option being releasing a bigger demon Zom (which honestly was just wrong , thankfully LT showed up), it was stated that an all out battle between Umar and Dormammu had the potential to destroy all of neither realm, Umar has defeated Dormammu himself in the past (has lost as well, goes both ways), stomped Dr. Strange when they fought.

She power has been described as being "as great or greater" than Dormammu, by Dr. Strange.

4.As above - I've heard a lot about him, but IDK any of his feats outside of hell. That is why I couldn't pick a winner there (and in Umar vs Hela).

Will wait for someone a little more well versed with Blackheart, like CadanceV2, to answer that.

#12 Posted by chiq (1965 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#13 Posted by KingOfAsh (3611 posts) - - Show Bio

Dormammu would beat Odin.

Not sure who Blackheart is, but can he handle Rune King Thor?

#14 Posted by chiq (1965 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingofash: He is Mephisto's son. I actually wanted to know what level Blackheart is operating at. Is normal Thor powerful enough to face him or do I have to use more powerful versions of Thor for this battle.

#15 Edited by chiq (1965 posts) - - Show Bio

@bigcimmerian said:

@oceanmaster21 said:

demons win bc loki wud aid the deoms to get rid of thir n odin plus the deomns r to jyst as powerful as the gods

Mephisto, Blackheart and Hellstrom are non factors, gods win because of Odin.

Why would Meph, Blackeart and Hellstrom be non factors in the team battle? They could certainly hold their own vs the less powerful gods. I made everyone fully powered.

#16 Posted by BigCimmerian (8314 posts) - - Show Bio

@chiq said:

@bigcimmerian said:

@oceanmaster21 said:

demons win bc loki wud aid the deoms to get rid of thir n odin plus the deomns r to jyst as powerful as the gods

Mephisto, Blackheart and Hellstrom are non factors, gods win because of Odin.

Why would Meph, Blackeart and Hellstrom be non factors in the team battle? They could certainly hold their own vs the less powerful gods. I made everyone fully powered.

Well, yeah, they are actually more powerful than the less powerful gods, but against Odin they are screwed.

#17 Posted by GhettoSwag (150 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Dormammu = Odin

Bor>odin

Bor beats mephisto if odin can.. Dormammu and odin stalemate

It is said that bors magic (aka borforce) is greater than odins..

#18 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghettoswag: I think Bor on his own is greater than Odin on his own however odin with the odinforce (or the power of his brothers Vili and Ve) is above Bor. We saw that Thor with the Odin Force was about equal to Bor and Thor was not as powerful as odin was with it.

#19 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Dormammu = Odin

Bor>odin

Bor beats mephisto if odin can.. Dormammu and odin stalemate

It is said that bors magic (aka borforce) is greater than odins..

I would hardly go into discussion about Dormammu, because I, by myself have two different opinions about him. It depends on my mood, which factor is stronger. One tells me that has to be between Odin and Mephisto, other that he is much above "old-Odin's" feats and I can't compare him to his new feats.

Bor is not above Odin, since Bor could be hypnotized by Loki. Something that is pretty much imposible to Odin.

@ghettoswag: I think Bor on his own is greater than Odin on his own however odin with the odinforce (or the power of his brothers Vili and Ve) is above Bor. We saw that Thor with the Odin Force was about equal to Bor and Thor was not as powerful as odin was with it.

Hard to judge OF before Vili and Ve gived him his power. IIRC, it was much lesser than Surtur's, but we don't know how much more powerfull Surtur was compared to Bor.

We also know that Thor normally don't use full OF, that is why so called OF Thor is weaker than Odin, but in theory he should be more powerfull than him, since he has Odin's power, Mjolnir and his own energies.

#20 Posted by Killemall (18580 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Ok what Old feat from Dormammu are you talking about, i would be interested to hear. I am pretty sure i have read every issue where Dormammu has made an appearences in 616 and most of his alternate reality appearances as well.

#21 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Ok what Old feat from Dormammu are you talking about, i would be interested to hear. I am pretty sure i have read every issue where Dormammu has made an appearences in 616 and most of his alternate reality appearances as well.

"Old-Odin" ;-)

Old-Odin, Classic Odin - I think about times when we belived that he is only multi-galaxy level.

Now, after manipulating Surtur's energy, he is universal level energy manipulator.

BTW, which of these feats were made without prep? Which of them are the best and in which comics I can find them?

#22 Posted by Killemall (18580 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: First you are asking about Dormammu's feats?

I am hoping the scans still work (i know the second half of it work, or you have to click on the scans invididually and copy it into your computer) and comicvine f*%ked up my thread but here i have a Dormammu chronology thread that cover, every major feat, both good and bad, done by Dormammu (616) till date.

The thread took me nearly 2 weeks to upload, so its pretty long and boring.

http://www.comicvine.com/dormammu/4005-2205/forums/dormammu-chronology-757462/#4

Also if you are interested i can quote few old feats from Odin, which is pretty much Odin himself talking about his and Sutur's power who explains both there power as universal (although we have a instance of Surtur claiming he has powers to bust galaxies and then saying he is going to melt ice caps to destroy Earth.. o_O)

Also honestly multi galaxy buster is more to sufficient to go up against Dormammu.

#23 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: First you are asking about Dormammu's feats?

I am hoping the scans still work (i know the second half of it work, or you have to click on the scans invididually and copy it into your computer) and comicvine f*%ked up my thread but here i have a Dormammu chronology thread that cover, every major feat, both good and bad, done by Dormammu (616) till date.

The thread took me nearly 2 weeks to upload, so its pretty long and boring.

http://www.comicvine.com/dormammu/4005-2205/forums/dormammu-chronology-757462/#4

Also if you are interested i can quote few old feats from Odin, which is pretty much Odin himself talking about his and Sutur's power who explains both there power as universal (although we have a instance of Surtur claiming he has powers to bust galaxies and then saying he is going to melt ice caps to destroy Earth.. o_O)

Also honestly multi galaxy buster is more to sufficient to go up against Dormammu.

1.I know many of them, but I always have problem which ones were made thanks to prep.

2.Odin saying that he is universal/omnipotent never really intrested me, because he and other Asgardians were always overestimated OF, since Odin for sure isn't omnipotent as we both know. I belive that Odin was talking about Surtur, when he told Thor about his brothers and how they combined their power and created OF, am I right?

3.So Dormammu isn't multi-galaxy level in You opinion? I thought that You will be the first person to stand with Dormie in this thread.

P.S. I am going to check that thread of Yours now ;-)

#24 Posted by Killemall (18580 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: 1. Very few feats quote from Dormammu are done with prep, commonly quoted ones are him beating Mephisto in Hades and him beating and taking the power of Eternity where he was ridiculously boosted.

2. Yes thats the instance and fair point. Although Odin IS omnipotent, by marvel defination of omnipotent, would you like scans with level of infinity and marvel defination of omnipotent to go with it?

3. Dormammu hasnt busted a single galaxy and his best feat is beating Mephisto in Hades, so not really. With full power of Dark Dimension, he probably will be, but thats a different issue because it is heavy speculation.

Also before some says classic Dormammu fought and beat Eternity lets put up scans to show what really happened , because that actually isnt true.

First Dormammu vs Eternity fight, note how what happen to Eternity is left vague

The very next issue Doctor Strange is contemplating what happened to Eternity after the fight

To quote Dr. Strange:

"And what of Deathless Eternity. Though i know he could not have perished yet i cant fathom why he suddently vanished. Did he choose to disappear for some reason of his own?"

Weird as it may be Eternity apparently "let" nightmare trap him after Dormammu's fight despite knowing neither nightmare nor Dormammu was anywhere close to him in power level

To quote Eternity:

"Nightmare you bound me after my battle with Dormammu. Why should i not have allowed you, where months you held me was nothing to me"

Dr. Strange: "What is he saying? That he could have freed himself all along?"

So thats what happened Eternity fought Dormammu, Dormammu got banished Eternity was ok. Nightmare held Eternity captive because Eternity allowed him to.

This is backed by the bio as well

In fact the next time Dormammu met Eternity, after ungodly being boosted, Eternity fought his previous encounter dismissiable

I could most certainly put up some more scans and some more bios supporting this stance, if anyone is interested , but thats the full picture :)

#25 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Levels of infinity? But isint Infinity well... infinite? And Infinite power = omnipotence?

#26 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

2.I don't see how Marvel can change definition of ominpotence...

3.Seems that I have overestimated Dormammu a lot. Yet, last version of Dormammu, with Eye of Agamotto and Umar's power seems to be multiversal level in terms similar to Insane Gennis-Vell (I would still give win to IGV, since DRM depends on energies that aren't fully under his control).

#27 Posted by terry2012 (5218 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Posted by Killemall (18580 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: Normally yes. But there was this mathematician called Georg Cantor, who came up with stuff like level of Infinity, and Transfinite (beyond infinite) level.

His argument was based on a hypothetical hotel. A hotel that has infinite number of room.

When the hotel is half filled how many customers are there? - Infinity (1)

When the hotel is completely filled how many customers are there? - Infinity (2)

Georg argues Infinity (1) and Infinity (2) are both infinities, but 1 is twice as big as 2, therefore they while they are both infinities they are different "levels" of infinity.

Honestly a f%*king weird concept, but marvel adopts it.

Dr. Strange trying to explain level of infinity:

So not only does he site an example very similar to what Georg Cantor did, his name is outright mentioned on panel.

Second mention of Cantor's level of infinity, when Kubik explains why Kubik and Kosmos, despite being omnipotent themselves are less powerful than Celestials, again exactly same example as Cantor used.

Kosmos's reaction to level of infinity is hilarious, she totally goes :o

Among other instances , cant remember off head, when explaining about Shaper of Worlds and Abstract, they were said to transact at "transfinite" level

So infinity and omnipotent in marvel itself is relative, and hence there are so many people with infinite powers and omnipotence. Odin is omnipotent, Galactus is omnipotent, Celestials are omnipotent, Eternity is omnipotent, Cosmic Cube beings like Kubik, Kosmos and Shaper are omnipotent, Living Tribunal is omnipotent and so on.

Marvel Handbook 1985 gives us a definition of omnipotent

Most importantly "The teams is used generically to describe numerous beings possessing vast powers, which, although not unlimited, by far surpasses that of most sentient beings"

So omnipotent in marvel doesnt really have to be omnipotent, just powerful.

#29 Posted by Killemall (18580 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

2.I don't see how Marvel can change definition of ominpotence...

3.Seems that I have overestimated Dormammu a lot. Yet, last version of Dormammu, with Eye of Agamotto and Umar's power seems to be multiversal level in terms similar to Insane Gennis-Vell (I would still give win to IGV, since DRM depends on energies that aren't fully under his control).

Its there comics they can do whatever. Also they dont say omnipotence is different, they say they use the terms omnipotence differently, scan spammage is above from me.

And it wasnt just Eye of Agamotto and Umar's power, those where minor boosts, the biggest boost was, there was s shift in multiversal axis. The multiversal axis is the alignment of all cosmic and mystical energy, that can significantly amp people. The bio backs they were mega amped.

#30 Edited by Bronze_Surfer (2979 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Edited by GhettoSwag (150 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: Bor has his own magic that is said to surpass odins..

#32 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@killemall:

2.I don't see how Marvel can change definition of ominpotence...

3.Seems that I have overestimated Dormammu a lot. Yet, last version of Dormammu, with Eye of Agamotto and Umar's power seems to be multiversal level in terms similar to Insane Gennis-Vell (I would still give win to IGV, since DRM depends on energies that aren't fully under his control).

Its there comics they can do whatever. Also they dont say omnipotence is different, they say they use the terms omnipotence differently, scan spammage is above from me.

And it wasnt just Eye of Agamotto and Umar's power, those where minor boosts, the biggest boost was, there was s shift in multiversal axis. The multiversal axis is the alignment of all cosmic and mystical energy, that can significantly amp people. The bio backs they were mega amped.

1.Not enteirly, but I am not going into this, since as it was saif on Your scan from handbook - omnipotence is a term used in certain situations, but it doesn't mean that it really means it. Rather than that, this HB explain to readers why they shouldn't belive to people like Odin, when they claim omnipotence, simply because many powerfull beings do it.

2.Do You know wher I can find something mroe about this multiversal axis? Is it similar to matrix of all realities used in Cap Britian or Excalibur series, when some sorceror was trying to manipulate Phoenix Force?

#33 Posted by dondave (37459 posts) - - Show Bio

Demons

#34 Posted by Killemall (18580 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: Fair enough.

Details of multiversa axis you must have read before, it has always been explained vaguely, it was explained during starbrand story arc as well, which i am pretty sure you have read.

So yeah thats the best i can remember off head

#35 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Edited by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

What about Surtur!?

#37 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

@perezite: What about him? He is weaker than Dormammu.

#38 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Edited by Hyperlight (5839 posts) - - Show Bio

im going with the demons... hellstrom loses to loki though

#40 Posted by GhettoSwag (150 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: UMM NO! Surtur is a little bit more powerful than odin.. Odin >= Dormammu

#41 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghettoswag: Surtur was more powerful than Odin without the OF. Dormammu is = to odin with the OF. He has already killed Surtur in his own realm right after he immprisond Mepheisto.

#42 Posted by lol (5132 posts) - - Show Bio

Demons

#43 Posted by Killerwasp (4829 posts) - - Show Bio

@oceanmaster21 said:

demons win bc loki wud aid the deoms to get rid of thir n odin plus the deomns r to jyst as powerful as the gods

Mephisto, Blackheart and Hellstrom are non factors, gods win because of Odin.