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#251 Posted by Saren (25122 posts) - - Show Bio

What's the point of this thread, seriously? Ostensibly it's to "debunk" myths and misconceptions about various feats, but that's hardly happening here. Most of the time the OP is either cherrypicking showings that favor his own confirmation bias about said "misconceptions", or twisting logic in admittedly inventive (bizarre, though) ways, and when someone tries to address the debunking, he either dismisses said debunking for reasons that are stupid (really no other word for it), or declares that only his standards of proof are infallible and should be accepted, or says that he's not interested in "debating semantics" (get real) and then goes around claiming everything has been debunked. Then the thread falls to the 3rd or 4th page because people get tired of this garbage, until the OP for reasons known only to him dredges it up again and replays the tired Romney schtick. I've seen actual Debunk-A-Feat threads on other sites, and this one is as ineffectual as they can get. Perhaps if someone more open to alternative interpretations was doing the debunking, but I doubt anyone cares enough to get further involved in this mess of a thread. Shame, I thought I'd post my Batman-kicks-Spectre rebuttal here, but it would be a waste of time.

Seriously, the Romney schtick is cute for a couple of comments, but come on. Going on about dem goddamn liberals gets old quickly.

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#252 Posted by beatboks1 (7533 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Yay Bane's back on the battle boards (for however briefly that lasts), all is good in the world

#253 Posted by Saren (25122 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: I'm only back for a few days until my exams kick into full swing :(

@Hyper_God: I did chuckle at the part about Sue's "celestial-busting energy".

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#254 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18812 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@beatboks1: I'm only back for a few days until my exams kick into full swing :(

@Hyper_God: I did chuckle at the part about Sue's "celestial-busting energy".

darn...well at least you pop up once in a while with awesome arguments, like the one i saw a couple days ago about mm vs supes

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#255 Posted by Lvenger (21239 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Hallelujah the voice of reason is back!

#256 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1 said:

I'd love to know when this alleged debunking of my scans occurred. Thus far you haven't responded to my post at all. I saw some reference to a micro singularity or some such but since my scans were of Supers reaching escape velocity of an actual Black whole I just don't think that applied to me. As I said in that post I admit it takes quite a bit ( almost everything he has) to accelerate to that point but he clearly did.

Actually artificial or otherwise, all black hole works the same to be honest contrary to what OP is trying to debunk. The whole reason its called a black hole and its black is because its escape velocity is greater than c. It has little to nothing to do with size. You can shrink the earth down to a black hole or you can compare the supermassive blackhole at the center of the galaxy which would be some billion time bigger.

#257 Posted by Lvenger (21239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@beatboks1 said:

I'd love to know when this alleged debunking of my scans occurred. Thus far you haven't responded to my post at all. I saw some reference to a micro singularity or some such but since my scans were of Supers reaching escape velocity of an actual Black whole I just don't think that applied to me. As I said in that post I admit it takes quite a bit ( almost everything he has) to accelerate to that point but he clearly did.

Actually artificial or otherwise, all black hole works the same to be honest contrary to what OP is trying to debunk. The whole reason its called a black hole and its black is because its escape velocity is greater than c. It has little to nothing to do with size. You can shrink the earth down to a black hole or you can compare the supermassive blackhole at the center of the galaxy which would be some billion time bigger.

Forgive my lack of knowledge on physics but are you saying that it is or isn't impressive that Superman escaped a black hole?

#258 Posted by Mattersuit (4274 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

What's the point of this thread, seriously? Ostensibly it's to "debunk" myths and misconceptions about various feats, but that's hardly happening here. Most of the time the OP is either cherrypicking showings that favor his own confirmation bias about said "misconceptions", or twisting logic in admittedly inventive (bizarre, though) ways, and when someone tries to address the debunking, he either dismisses said debunking for reasons that are stupid (really no other word for it), or declares that only his standards of proof are infallible and should be accepted, or says that he's not interested in "debating semantics" (get real) and then goes around claiming everything has been debunked. Then the thread falls to the 3rd or 4th page because people get tired of this garbage, until the OP for reasons known only to him dredges it up again and replays the tired Romney schtick. I've seen actual Debunk-A-Feat threads on other sites, and this one is as ineffectual as they can get. Perhaps if someone more open to alternative interpretations was doing the debunking, but I doubt anyone cares enough to get further involved in this mess of a thread. Shame, I thought I'd post my Batman-kicks-Spectre rebuttal here, but it would be a waste of time.

Seriously, the Romney schtick is cute for a couple of comments, but come on. Going on about dem goddamn liberals gets old quickly.

Points to the part where I debunked Iceman beating Oblivion.

I did my part in the spirit of the thread...

#259 Edited by God_Spawn (38367 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane:

Ostensibly it's to "debunk" myths and misconceptions about various feats, but that's hardly happening here.

I did my part with the WWH event >:D....since you didn't :P.

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#260 Edited by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

Forgive my lack of knowledge on physics but are you saying that it is or isn't impressive that Superman escaped a black hole?

Lol you dont have to be so formal. To put it in simple words, it does not matter whether the black hole in question was huge, small, artifical or made in china, you need faster than light speed to escape a black hole.

So its impressive and does show superman can go FTL and did in that instance.

The reason i brought up artificial black hole was no different because the OP tried to pretend what Steve said earlier on page no 8 was no valid, i.e.

@Pokeysteve said:

Even light can't escape a black hole there for he would HAVE to have been going faster to escape it.

And in reply the OP said

@Binder_full_of_Women said:

I'm not ignoring science. I'm ignoring people who think they know science. Mini black holes are nothing like astrophysical black holes. They do not swallow matter and light like their cosmic vacuum cleaner brothers do. So I don't feel it's necessary to counter someones claims that Superman is FTL because he flew out of a mini black hole.

And this is nonsense, be it mini, micro, nano whatever the whole reason black hole is black to begin with is because its escape velocity > c.

Not to mention its funny how no-body even addressed this from the OP: Nanoseconds and picoseconds are not superluminal speed feats. Nano and pico seconds are used to measure the distance light has traveled. I don't know why writers continue to use them in regards to speedsters in comics. But nevertheless they don't really make much sense.

Its funny because nano as a prefix in science means (1/ 1,000,000,000) and second is second. And nanosecond has always been a measure of speed :p and so has picosecond. Light year and parsec are measure of distance nanosecond and picosecond are NOT.

Also before out OP starts asking me a scan let me post one =)

#261 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@Binder_full_of_Women:

I can add to your Superman part. He doesn't battle at FTl like a lot of people claim, far below that actually. Taken from my previous posts.

Superman, Black Adam, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel do not battle at FTL.

Taken from my blog of Speed vs Strength here:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/speed-vs-strength-common-misconceptions/608680/

How fast is Superman? Sure he can fly at faster than light (FTL), but can he actually move his body at such speeds?

By speculation maybe he can. But from what we have seen, he cannot. Not like the Flash has.

First I will address this notorious scan of Superman chasing Wally.

People try and use this scan and the calculation above to show that they are running FTL. Now they misinterpret the scan and ignore all the narration and dialogue that Wally states before he approximates his calculation. He says that if he steals Superman's speed and turns him into a statue like he did to inertia, then it the speed and momentum they are moving at would make it so like he is moving much faster than FTL. Don't believe me, I have more evidence.

This is Superman running after Flash, people have used this scan to try and say Superman easily runs at light speed. He is not flying and using his biosphere. Therefore lets accept that he is using his superspeed with his limbs. Look at his facial expression, he is struggling to catch the Flash while the Flash barely seems to exert himself. Now how fast are they actually moving? Here is the scan that people FAIL to post when they are claiming FTL again.

Read what Superman says there. He hears something speaking a hypersonic speeds meaning that the Flash, who can use his powers of the speed force to add speed to almost anything even sound itself, is not running near the speed of light here. Superman running slower than Hypderspeeds, scale how fast someone can run to how fast they can punch and you can at least have a good rough estimate of how fast Superman can battle at. I'm currently too lazy to perform the research and claculations.

Lastly, we know what happens when Barry is serious.

To be continued: As of March 3, 2012 a user ( ) has pointed an awesome scan to me of Black Adam moving at Mach 500. Might debunk or give another analysis as to how fast Superman can actually move his limbs.

Spider-man did NOT support the whole Daily Bugle by himself. He took the place of a single column.

Taken from page 8 and 9 of my debate here.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/the-most-powerful-character-spiderman-can-beat/648283/?page=8

@MagneticShockwave:

Again, everything you showed me is vague and ambiguous. Without a proper gauge on what is going on with the feat we DON'T know how much Peter is actually supporting or lifting. All we know is that the building is falling due to a domino effect. Peter is just supporting that first domino that is falling down. How much that single domino weighs is the ambiguous part.

And even more ambiguity in the scans you showed us (thanks for sharing them BTW)

Peter is ONLY shown putting up one single I-Beam. When he sets that one up, it is shown that there was one next to him. The picture is angled so we can only see what was on one of his sides. How do we know that there is not another one right next to him? Or a few behind him? Or around him?

His spider-sense could have lead him to where that single and most important I-Beam was.

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#262 Posted by Lvenger (21239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Lvenger said:

Forgive my lack of knowledge on physics but are you saying that it is or isn't impressive that Superman escaped a black hole?

Lol you dont have to be so formal. To put it in simple words, it does not matter whether the black hole in question was huge, small, artifical or made in china, you need faster than light speed to escape a black hole.

So its impressive and does show superman can go FTL and did in that instance.

The reason i brought up artificial black hole was no different because the OP tried to pretend what Steve said earlier on page no 8 was no valid, i.e.

But..but that's how I roll ;( Lol jks it's just how I phrase things. Glad you've explained it to me now! Plus Superman has FTL combat speed to boot shown by his fight with Wonder Woman. So the OP's Superman debunking is pretty much void now.

#263 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger:

I disagree, Superman can fly at FTL no problem. Flying is not the same as fighting. Debunk my post right above yours.

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#264 Edited by jashro44 (25512 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Lvenger:

I disagree, Superman can fly at FTL no problem. Flying is not the same as fighting. Debunk my post right above yours.

I don't think we are hearing any arguments about superman fighting faster than light. The op was saying that superman can't fly at faster than light speeds until scans of wonder woman 219 were posted. All though I think we moved on past that as well.

#265 Edited by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Lvenger:

I disagree, Superman can fly at FTL no problem. Flying is not the same as fighting. Debunk my post right above yours.

I don't think we are hearing any arguments about superman fighting faster than light. The op was saying that superman can't fly at faster than light speeds until scans of wonder woman 219 were posted.

LVenger said this. "Plus Superman has FTL combat speed to boot shown by his fight with Wonder Woman. So the OP's Superman debunking is pretty much void now."

That's what I'm disagreeing with. Only because it doesn't go with what I posted directly above his post.

BTW, this thread is long. Where is that WW scan?

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#266 Posted by Lvenger (21239 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: The scans Jashro44 provided do just that. I count combat speed as partaking in a combat scenario. We've discussed this before and I defer to you that Superman cannot run at FTL speeds. He can fly FTL speeds however and the OP has not conceded this yet so you might want to take that up with him. As the fight with Wonder Woman, it happened in 1 minute and 44 seconds according to Maxwell Lord

@jashro44 said:

@Binder_full_of_Women: Understandable. Here is a more clear cut indecent though if you want of superman flying at faster than light speed.

From wonder woman 219. He flies wonder woman to the sun and maxwell lord says the fight took place in 1 minute and 44 seconds.

This was a combat scenario that happened in 1 minute and 44 seconds according to Maxwell Lord. This was a fight that occurred at FTL speeds. I won't debunk your scans as I have deferred to you on this issue before.

#267 Posted by jashro44 (25512 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@jashro44 said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Lvenger:

I disagree, Superman can fly at FTL no problem. Flying is not the same as fighting. Debunk my post right above yours.

I don't think we are hearing any arguments about superman fighting faster than light. The op was saying that superman can't fly at faster than light speeds until scans of wonder woman 219 were posted.

LVenger said this. "Plus Superman has FTL combat speed to boot shown by his fight with Wonder Woman. So the OP's Superman debunking is pretty much void now."

That's what I'm disagreeing with. Only because it doesn't go with what I posted directly above his post.

Oh I agree superman can't punch at light speeds or anything like that.

#268 Posted by Lvenger (21239 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

LVenger said this. "Plus Superman has FTL combat speed to boot shown by his fight with Wonder Woman. So the OP's Superman debunking is pretty much void now."

That's what I'm disagreeing with. Only because it doesn't go with what I posted directly above his post.

By this I meant the OP's efforts of debunking Superman not being able to fly at FTL speeds. You never said that and I'm not quibbling with your scans either.

#269 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@SlimJ87D: The scans Jashro44 provided do just that. I count combat speed as partaking in a combat scenario. We've discussed this before and I defer to you that Superman cannot run at FTL speeds. He can fly FTL speeds however and the OP has not conceded this yet so you might want to take that up with him. As the fight with Wonder Woman, it happened in 1 minute and 44 seconds according to Maxwell Lord

@jashro44 said:

@Binder_full_of_Women: Understandable. Here is a more clear cut indecent though if you want of superman flying at faster than light speed.

From wonder woman 219. He flies wonder woman to the sun and maxwell lord says the fight took place in 1 minute and 44 seconds.

This was a combat scenario that happened in 1 minute and 44 seconds according to Maxwell Lord. This was a fight that occurred at FTL speeds. I won't debunk your scans as I have deferred to you on this issue before.

@jashro44: I'm at work, so I can't really open those scans up. But does anywhere in those scans say that they are moving at even light speed or faster?

@Lvenger: Just because the whole fight took place in 1 minute and 44 seconds doesn't mean anything. We could have a whole fight where we were running at Mach 500 and a lot could happen.

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#270 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Lvenger:

I disagree, Superman can fly at FTL no problem. Flying is not the same as fighting. Debunk my post right above yours.

Forgive me for asking but i do not see anything there that shows superman cant fly or run FLT, unless you are saying this because there is lack of evidence to show he can. It shows superman was able to hear something at hypersonic, and the whole term hypersonic is loosely defined. hypersonic simply is faster than sound, can be any speed. While a common measure (at least according to wikipedia is mach 5, which certainly isnt an assumption you will see on physics text book), that doesnt actually show he cant.

Also sorry but i have little trouble with people interpreting facial expression to mean something, because it has pretty much always been inconsistent.

Lets look at one example, including Superman.

Look at his facial expression , his body strain while trying to pull a moon alongside wonder woman and green lantern. Even given him a huge leeway and assuming superman was moving 99.99% of the moon, this should show Superman cant move much more than that. And we know weight of moon is 2% of the earth, and we have an instance during Faces of Evil: Starbreaker, where superman moves the earth alongside Green Lantern (Hal Jordan).

I generally dont think its prudent to see at side effect of the battle or facial expression of the character to draw a conclusion.

#271 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Okay, you know what, NVM. You said he FLEW tot he sun. This is not combat like I said. You never addressed my analogy in our previous debate.

Taken from our previous debate "So because a human being can fly a plan at Mach speeds, does that mean we have Mach combat speeds?"

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#272 Posted by jashro44 (25512 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: Maxwell Lord timed the fight between superman and wonder woman at 1 minute and 44 seconds. During the fight he reached the sun and if I'm not mistaken it takes light 7 minutes to travel to the sun. Superman did it in less. All though its really just travel speed (blitzing basically).

#273 Posted by Lvenger (21239 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Lvenger: Okay, you know what, NVM. You said he FLEW tot he sun. This is not combat like I said. You never addressed my analogy in our previous debate.

Taken from our previous debate "So because a human being can fly a plan at Mach speeds, does that mean we have Mach combat speeds?"

OK now I remember. That's misinterpretation on my part. I don't think I found scans that fully countered that did I? Hmm very well I concede and agree with Jashro44 that the instance he provided and I supported was blitzing in essence, a common tactic of Superman's.

#274 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: no, hypersonic is actually a Mach number range my friend.

Hypersonic5.0-10.03,840-7,6806,150-12,3001,710-3,415Coolednickel-titaniumskin; highly integrated (due to domination of interference effects: non-linear behaviour means that superpositionof results for separate components is invalid), small wings, see X-51A Waverider

Far below the speeds of light.

And again, there are images of Black Adam giving out at Mach 500.

Superman does NOT battle at FTL. I am open to it though if someone gives more scans, but consistency wise, he couldn't even catch Flash who was moving around the hypersonic range.

@jashro44 said:

@SlimJ87D: Maxwell Lord timed the fight between superman and wonder woman at 1 minute and 44 seconds. During the fight he reached the sun and if I'm not mistaken it takes light 7 minutes to travel to the sun. Superman did it in less. All though its really just travel speed (blitzing basically).

Yes, but Superman's ability to fly is different from his actual ability to move his limbs and combat. I can believe that and it's very plausible for him to get to the sun once in space and he flies at his maximum speed.

The point of the matter is that if you took his flight away in a scenario, would he be running, battling and fighting at FTL? Probably not. His ability to fly and control himself could be an analogy between a human flying a plane ( a bit more different of course).

Now what Lvanger is saying that because he's capable of flying at FTL, he combats at FTL, but that is not true. He does not perceive time at those speeds like the Flash could if the Flash moved at his max. And if we are going to say he has the reflexes and abilities to fight at FTL because he flies at FTL, then I guess you and I possibly have the ability to combat at Mach speeds since I can fly a plane that flies at Mach speeds.

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#275 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: I think its important to the artistry as well. When reading a Novel they give details if there straining or not. In a Comic only the Art Work can tell you by Facial Emotions and Body Language. Thats a simple fact.

The truth really is some Artist and Writers write Superman having trouble with the moon and others have him Moving Planets.

Same with his Speed. Hes a Inconsistent character as the writers try there hardest to make him strain for the sake of plot.

Lets face it. At the end of the day he has Low Showings and High Showings.

Dont forget to that character of Supes caliber break the laws of physics and not to many writers pass 6th Grade Science :P

This is why I hate debating High Tier characters. There full of PIS, WIS, or simply Writers who know nothing of Science.

#276 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Mach 500 is still fast as hell. If he lived within those realms then that would mean in 1 second of our time, to Superman it would be about 28030 seconds.

This is a comparison between a persons sprinting ability and Black Adam, someone that is known to be close to Superman's equal.

I'm not downplaying Superman here, but all I am saying is that he has Reflexes and the set of mind to be in the Mach 500 range to combat and do things. But he can easily fly at FTL when he needs to.

That is my consistency.

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#277 Posted by Saren (25122 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

He does not perceive time at those speeds like the Flash could if the Flash moved at his max.

He does. In Action Comics #642, Hal Jordan uses his ring to dilate time in a restricted zone down to a fraction of a nanosecond, and although it freezes everyone else in the area (except Jordan and Deadman), Superman's innate speed allows him to still perceive what's happening, move around and operate in that fraction of a nanosecond.

(Note that he says he's speeded up "for some reason", but that's in order to not give away the fact that Clark Kent is Superman). So here's an instance of him perceiving a fraction of a nanosecond while people like Guy Gardner could not.

Moderator
#278 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: no, hypersonic is actually a Mach number range my friend.

Hypersonic5.0-10.03,840-7,6806,150-12,3001,710-3,415Coolednickel-titaniumskin; highly integrated (due to domination of interference effects: non-linear behaviour means that superpositionof results for separate components is invalid), small wings, see X-51A Waverider

Far below the speeds of light.

Sorry i cant understand what you are trying to say with the definition. However, i can do better, here's a scan from NASA official publication

thats the heading of the publication.

thats the defination in the publication

Read through that and you will see

below Mach 0.75 - subsonic

0.75 - 1.25 - transonic

1.25 - 5 - Superman sonic

5+ => Hypersonic

Check any physics text book or anything you like. Its always the same. Anything above March 5 with no upper limit is considered hypersonic

Here are few not so official link that define hypersonic

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hypersonic

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypersonic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_speed

http://www.answers.com/topic/hypersonic

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypersonic

the defination is always constant, its Mach 5 or over, with no cap on top limit.

#279 Edited by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_speed

Skip down to "Classification of Mach Regimes" besides this, you are nitpicking the point now, there is still Black Adam at Mach 500. And again, Hypersonic speeds is a range or "regime" of mach speeds. Please take a look.

@CitizenBane: It's nice to see you back Bane. Building off of what I said here,

@SlimJ87D said:

@Lvenger: Mach 500 is still fast as hell. If he lived within those realms then that would mean in 1 second of our time, to Superman it would be about 28030 seconds.

This is a comparison between a persons sprinting ability and Black Adam, someone that is known to be close to Superman's equal.

I'm not downplaying Superman here, but all I am saying is that he has Reflexes and the set of mind to be in the Mach 500 range to combat and do things. But he can easily fly at FTL when he needs to.

That is my consistency.

Now lets compare to a person. When I drop a ball in a puddle of water, the water is traveling at great speeds, yet everyone is able to close their eyes in time and shield their face. That's a reaction and reflex. Now scale that to my analogy above. If Superman exist in a time where 1 second to us is around 28,030 seconds to him, then I could believe he can react in nanoseconds according to your scan. That just means someone like the Flash is a picosecond, which I think there is a scan explaining the Flash has picosecond reactions.

This actually goes inline with what I believe, because where a nano is 10^-9, a pico is 10^-12, there is a difference in magnitudes of 3 places, similar to Mach 500ish and light speeds. Flash is someone we know has combated (although not often) FTL. Superman is someone that I have not seen actually combat at FTL.

So for consistency purposes here, what can we all agree on? I just want for us to agree on something before we all agree to disagree.

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#280 Posted by Lvenger (21239 posts) - - Show Bio

See this is the way to debunk feats. Through reasonable discussion and balanced presentation of each case. The OP's way of doing it is simply ridiculous. Take a note from Bane and Slim on lessons.

#281 Posted by Saren (25122 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: I'm not sure what division of time Superman would need to operate in for FTL combat speed (which, for the record, I don't believe he possesses), but if he can move around and talk in a fraction of a nanosecond, it seems clear to me that he'd also be able to punch and kick and so on in a fraction of a nanosecond, since he's shown to be able to operate within that frame. There are two other scans I know of where Superman reacts to an exploding baby (don't ask) in a nanosecond, and another where he tells Felix Faust he can perceive his actions one nanosecond at a time. Based on consistent portrayals of Superman's speed, I would say his combat speed approaches lightspeed, but doesn't exceed it. It sounds about right and still makes him one of the fastest beings there is, barring Flashes and Zooms and so on. Flash has disarmed Mirror Master in a picosecond once and he has two or three other picosecond operational feats, so his operational speed is clearly higher than Superman's.

Moderator
#282 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Awesome, thanks. That makes sense too. So are you only chiming in once in awhile when something sparks your interest or still on the ledger?

This is how I take it. Along with this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time

Humans have reaction times in the milliseconds. If superman does indeed exist in the realms I calculated before, then he would have Light Speed reaction times. My only argument is the rate he can move his limbs and combat which are like a human running at Mach 500 again referring to the Black Adam scan.

To me it all makes sense in an order of scaling.

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#283 Posted by Saren (25122 posts) - - Show Bio

And as for the "Flash can't go faster than light because he'll enter the Speed Force and die" thing? I will admit that portrayals of that particular phenomenon are inconsistent. Some writers do in fact portray Wally as risking his own demise by exceeding light speed, some writers believe that rule can go to hell and Wally can run as fast as he wants. For example, here's Wally achieving superluminal speeds by using the Speed Force to do so and incurring no consequences. It takes him just two steps (by his second step he remarks that tachyon plankton explode and shoot back in time around him, tachyons are theoretical particles that always move faster than light, and unless Mass Effect has been lying to me, entering a "warp tide" implies FTL speed). He's not dying or suffering any adversities as a result of doing so.

There are other examples as well but I can't dig right now. When Flash fought Zoom, he wasn't getting that speed boost to reach light speed ---- he was getting to reach light speed instantaneously, an edge he needed against Zoom. In that fight they circled the Earth a dozen times in less than a second, which is FTL combat seeing as light circles the Earth only seven times in a second.

@SlimJ87D: Still on the Ledger. I just have a few days with nothing to do.

Moderator
#284 Posted by laflux (17548 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

Read what Superman says there. He hears something speaking a hypersonic speeds meaning that the Flash, who can use his powers of the speed force to add speed to almost anything even sound itself, is not running near the speed of light here. Superman running slower than Hypderspeeds, scale how fast someone can run to how fast they can punch and you can at least have a good rough estimate of how fast Superman can battle at. I'm currently too lazy to perform the research and claculations.

Lastly, we know what happens when Barry is serious.

To be continued: As of March 3, 2012 a user ( ) has pointed an awesome scan to me of Black Adam moving at Mach 500. Might debunk or give another analysis as to how fast Superman can actually move his limbs.

Spider-man did NOT support the whole Daily Bugle by himself. He took the place of a single column.

Taken from page 8 and 9 of my debate here.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/the-most-powerful-character-spiderman-can-beat/648283/?page=8

@MagneticShockwave:

Again, everything you showed me is vague and ambiguous. Without a proper gauge on what is going on with the feat we DON'T know how much Peter is actually supporting or lifting. All we know is that the building is falling due to a domino effect. Peter is just supporting that first domino that is falling down. How much that single domino weighs is the ambiguous part.

And even more ambiguity in the scans you showed us (thanks for sharing them BTW)

Peter is ONLY shown putting up one single I-Beam. When he sets that one up, it is shown that there was one next to him. The picture is angled so we can only see what was on one of his sides. How do we know that there is not another one right next to him? Or a few behind him? Or around him?

His spider-sense could have lead him to where that single and most important I-Beam was.

Urghh. That thread was made by me back when I was a noob- man I wish someone would lock it. I remember someone using the dynamics of exploding building to show that Spider-Man was supporting the whole building, but he even flat out says he is not. Its on the thread somewhere. What estimate would you put on how much he is lifting. Looking back at the feat its a clear out-liner feat for Spider-Man.

#285 Posted by laflux (17548 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

What's the point of this thread, seriously? Ostensibly it's to "debunk" myths and misconceptions about various feats, but that's hardly happening here. Most of the time the OP is either cherrypicking showings that favor his own confirmation bias about said "misconceptions", or twisting logic in admittedly inventive (bizarre, though) ways, and when someone tries to address the debunking, he either dismisses said debunking for reasons that are stupid (really no other word for it), or declares that only his standards of proof are infallible and should be accepted, or says that he's not interested in "debating semantics" (get real) and then goes around claiming everything has been debunked. Then the thread falls to the 3rd or 4th page because people get tired of this garbage, until the OP for reasons known only to him dredges it up again and replays the tired Romney schtick. I've seen actual Debunk-A-Feat threads on other sites, and this one is as ineffectual as they can get. Perhaps if someone more open to alternative interpretations was doing the debunking, but I doubt anyone cares enough to get further involved in this mess of a thread. Shame, I thought I'd post my Batman-kicks-Spectre rebuttal here, but it would be a waste of time.

Seriously, the Romney schtick is cute for a couple of comments, but come on. Going on about dem goddamn liberals gets old quickly.

I basically said the same thing a few pages back, in a less coherent way.

#286 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_speed

Skip down to "Classification of Mach Regimes" besides this, you are nitpicking the point now, there is still Black Adam at Mach 500. And again, Hypersonic speeds is a range or "regime" of mach speeds. Please take a look.

Ok firstly i do not understand what i am nitpicking about o_O

What i am surprised is Re-entry speed is generally the speed at which a high speed shuttle enters earth atmosphere which is generally less than Mach 25. In fact try and google re-entry speed and you will get none. The same thing is even said on NASA's official site which addresses both mach and re-entry speed, and they are not seen as 2 different sets, at least not as far as i know.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/mach.html

Also i have never seen a cap being placed on hyperspeed apart from apparently in wikipedia which is weird.

Also what has the underlined part got to do anything with what i am saying?

My point was:

1. How does that particular scan show Superman cannot fight at FTL speed? Are you saying so based on lack of evidence of Superman fighting at FTL speed or is there anything in particular that you saw on the scan that shows Superman cant fight at FTL speed?

2. You seem to be comparing their facial expression, and all i said that is not generally not accurate.

I really dont see what Black Adam travelling at Mach 500 has anything to do with what i am saying o_O

#287 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: To be honest, I cannot estimate the I-Beam and how much weight Spider-man is supporting. But it should be not be much more than his max lifting power at that time which was 10 tons.

He sure the hell isn't lifting the whole building like everyone thinks or thought. I just wanted to debunk that feat.

And i just wanted to explain what was happening when Superman was chasing Wally.

Online
#288 Posted by Saren (25122 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@god_spawn: Yet the Secret Invasion Skrulls have shown on par or more so. Spider Woman, Electra, and even the Skrull who took on both Wolverine and Echo with X-men Powers are all prime examples how much more amped they were.

There are also Skrulls that were miserable third-rate copies of the original heroes. Elektra (the real one) fought Skrulls that had the powers of Wolverine and Reed Richards, and killed them by stabbing them in the face, despite the fact that neither Logan nor Reed would die if they were stabbed in the face. She was blasted by a Skrull that had Cyclops' powers and recovered, despite the fact that a blast from the real Cyclops can do vastly more damage than that and the Skrull in question was actively trying to kill her. Black Panther fought a Skrull that had the combined abilities of Wolverine, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Bullseye and the combined skills of Moon Knight, Shang Chi, Daredevil, Elektra, Captain America and T'Challa himself and won, despite the fact that Captain America alone has stalemated Black Panther. He then beheaded, with the Ebony Blade, a Skrull with the powers of Thor, Beta Ray Bill and Loki, and then later he and Storm singlehandedly slaughtered (with just swords, no powers) an entire Skull spaceship. There are valid arguments that can be raised for Skrull copies being on par with their originals, and there are just as valid arguments for the contrary.

Moderator
#289 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@Hyper_God: I did chuckle at the part about Sue's "celestial-busting energy".

This entire thread is chuckleworthy .

#290 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: True that. My point is what was said to be fact and then PIS and WIS (different writers of different titles) mess it all up.

Example. AvX. We know Namor would spank Thing. We know Mags would spank IM. We know Iceman would spank Rulk. It doesnt happen at all that way.

So the Skrulls being beaten by good guys is to me a showing of PIS and the simple fact Good Guys win no matter what.

I just wanted to point oyt Black Bolt Skrull power looked legit and the New Avengers books confirm Skrulls are "suppose" to be equal if not better.

#291 Posted by SlimJ87D (10777 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Killemall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_speed

Skip down to "Classification of Mach Regimes" besides this, you are nitpicking the point now, there is still Black Adam at Mach 500. And again, Hypersonic speeds is a range or "regime" of mach speeds. Please take a look.

Ok firstly i do not understand what i am nitpicking about o_O

What i am surprised is Re-entry speed is generally the speed at which a high speed shuttle enters earth atmosphere which is generally less than Mach 25. In fact try and google re-entry speed and you will get none. The same thing is even said on NASA's official site which addresses both mach and re-entry speed, and they are not seen as 2 different sets, at least not as far as i know.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/mach.html

Also i have never seen a cap being placed on hyperspeed apart from apparently in wikipedia which is weird.

Also what has the underlined part got to do anything with what i am saying?

My point was:

1. How does that particular scan show Superman cannot fight at FTL speed? Are you saying so based on lack of evidence of Superman fighting at FTL speed or is there anything in particular that you saw on the scan that shows Superman cant fight at FTL speed?

2. You seem to be comparing their facial expression, and all i said that is not generally not accurate.

I really dont see what Black Adam travelling at Mach 500 has anything to do with what i am saying o_O

He hears something speaking at Hypersonic speeds. We have an estimation of the range of hypersonic speeds. And that is MUCH lower than light speeds, so much lower that you can make it mach 5000 and it still doesn't come in range of light speeds or greater. The facial expression is an added bonus to show that Superman is struggling and Flash is not. And Flash is much faster than Superman. This was taken from my old post on who was faster, that is why that stuff is in there. So the facial expression thing wasn't something I wrote for this thread, it was like I said an old post I'm reposting.

The nitpicking is that regardless of what we are arguing about right now, there is another scan that shows Black Adam can't run faster than Mach 500 and therefore most likely Superman and Captain Marvel can't either. Comparing those two events together suggest Superman ranges in your terms hyperspeeds at around Mach 500. So what I mean by nitpicking is that you're just pointing out one part of the argument that is suppose to go along with another argument that together makes a single argument. So by nitpicking at one part and not combining it with the other, you aren't getting the full understanding of where I'm getting at.

Online
#292 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

And i just wanted to explain what was happening when Superman was chasing Wally.

Oh so the mach part was to so in that particular scan he did not go light speed? That i agree.

I though you were saying something about that scan clearly showing he cant go light speed.

My bad, i think i misunderstood what you meant =)

#293 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D: While the first part i agree, the Black Adam part i do not. Saying Superman cant fight FTL because he has never fought FTL sounded correct, but saying Superman cant go FLT because Black Adam (a completely unrelated character) cant go FTL sounds a little off to me. Is there some instance that confirms they are at the same speed level, because superman has shown a nanosecond reaction time, and has many instances of blitzing characters, some with superspeed, while Black Adam and Captain Marvel simply dont.

#294 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@CitizenBane: True that. My point is what was said to be fact and then PIS and WIS (different writers of different titles) mess it all up.

Example. AvX. We know Namor would spank Thing. We know Mags would spank IM. We know Iceman would spank Rulk. It doesnt happen at all that way.

So the Skrulls being beaten by good guys is to me a showing of PIS and the simple fact Good Guys win no matter what.

I just wanted to point oyt Black Bolt Skrull power looked legit and the New Avengers books confirm Skrulls are "suppose" to be equal if not better.

Supposed to be doesn't mean they are. In fact, you claim PIS, but the Skrull claiming them to be equals, seems to be more of their own hubris than anything. Yes, the Skrull clones sometimes have displayed powers that their originals either can't do, or are unaware they can do. Jessica Drews is a good example of that one. However, more often than not, the Skrull clones of whomever they are cloning, are defeated by their counterpart.

To me, that proves that if anything, they are less powerful than the original. Yes, they may have full awareness on how to use their powers, or may even have extra powers. But that means nothing if those extra powers are less potent than the originals. Black Bolts clone seemed to give a full shout and shattered what? A good chunk of the moon.

Black Bolts himself could distort time/space with a full blast. A mere whisper can be enough to decimate landscapes depending on his mood. I have my doubts that the Skrull clone was anywhere near him, especially seeing as it looked like the Hulk one shot him. The skrull can claim their superiority all day, but the facts don't support their claims. And why should they not claim superiority? All races in comics seem to claim to be the superior race more often than not, why would the Skrull be any different?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#295 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Well there have been instances where Skrulls have beaten their orginal counterpart. Surfer for one got beat up by Skrull surfer :p

#296 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@CitizenBane: True that. My point is what was said to be fact and then PIS and WIS (different writers of different titles) mess it all up.

Example. AvX. We know Namor would spank Thing. We know Mags would spank IM. We know Iceman would spank Rulk. It doesnt happen at all that way.

So the Skrulls being beaten by good guys is to me a showing of PIS and the simple fact Good Guys win no matter what.

I just wanted to point oyt Black Bolt Skrull power looked legit and the New Avengers books confirm Skrulls are "suppose" to be equal if not better.

Supposed to be doesn't mean they are. In fact, you claim PIS, but the Skrull claiming them to be equals, seems to be more of their own hubris than anything. Yes, the Skrull clones sometimes have displayed powers that their originals either can't do, or are unaware they can do. Jessica Drews is a good example of that one. However, more often than not, the Skrull clones of whomever they are cloning, are defeated by their counterpart.

To me, that proves that if anything, they are less powerful than the original. Yes, they may have full awareness on how to use their powers, or may even have extra powers. But that means nothing if those extra powers are less potent than the originals. Black Bolts clone seemed to give a full shout and shattered what? A good chunk of the moon.

Black Bolts himself could distort time/space with a full blast. A mere whisper can be enough to decimate landscapes depending on his mood. I have my doubts that the Skrull clone was anywhere near him, especially seeing as it looked like the Hulk one shot him. The skrull can claim their superiority all day, but the facts don't support their claims. And why should they not claim superiority? All races in comics seem to claim to be the superior race more often than not, why would the Skrull be any different?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Well considering Electra Skrull proved to be the equal. Example was Echo felt only Electra would kill her. Electra Skrull did.

Also look at the original Super Skrull. 4 F4 Powers and all are equal to them.

Also look at Spider woman. Her Powers as I proved were BETTER than the Originals.

Captain America Skrull fought Spider Man, Kazar, Sabu, and Kazar Girl at the same time! He was put down by Blow Darts from Kazars little tribe while fighting 3 Super Powered foes and a Skilled Chick.

Point is there is more proof and solid proof in the Skrulls who had more than a cameo than the ones that were key parts of the Secrete Invasion.

Edit:

Also to add many character should not have lost to WWH but did. Sentry alone should have crushed WWH. He didnt. So Hulk survivng Black Bolt shout (skrull or not) is not far off from what the writer thought that BB power should be. If I remember correctly BB was not a Skrull at all till Bendis made the Secrete Invasion event. So this topic is now only brought up due to a Retcon for a event. For all intents and purpose WWH took a BB shout and destroying a Chunk of the Moon sounds right. I remember another Scan where BB shattered a Mountain with a full shout. So I dont see the deal with a Chunk of Moon Missing.

Heck I seen Hulk smash a Metorite twice the size of Earth!

But he never shows that kind of Strength often if at all. So BB shout is about right from what I seen.

#297 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Floopay: Well there have been instances where Skrulls have beaten their orginal counterpart. Surfer for one got beat up by Skrull surfer :p

I remember him getting beat up, but I also remember him winning. But I believe more often than not the Skrull counterparts wind up being beaten. Though their big amalgam Skrull clones seem to do well. The Godkiller and the Warriors Three clones are good examples of that. Super Skrull is another good example.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#298 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Floopay said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@CitizenBane: True that. My point is what was said to be fact and then PIS and WIS (different writers of different titles) mess it all up.

Example. AvX. We know Namor would spank Thing. We know Mags would spank IM. We know Iceman would spank Rulk. It doesnt happen at all that way.

So the Skrulls being beaten by good guys is to me a showing of PIS and the simple fact Good Guys win no matter what.

I just wanted to point oyt Black Bolt Skrull power looked legit and the New Avengers books confirm Skrulls are "suppose" to be equal if not better.

Supposed to be doesn't mean they are. In fact, you claim PIS, but the Skrull claiming them to be equals, seems to be more of their own hubris than anything. Yes, the Skrull clones sometimes have displayed powers that their originals either can't do, or are unaware they can do. Jessica Drews is a good example of that one. However, more often than not, the Skrull clones of whomever they are cloning, are defeated by their counterpart.

To me, that proves that if anything, they are less powerful than the original. Yes, they may have full awareness on how to use their powers, or may even have extra powers. But that means nothing if those extra powers are less potent than the originals. Black Bolts clone seemed to give a full shout and shattered what? A good chunk of the moon.

Black Bolts himself could distort time/space with a full blast. A mere whisper can be enough to decimate landscapes depending on his mood. I have my doubts that the Skrull clone was anywhere near him, especially seeing as it looked like the Hulk one shot him. The skrull can claim their superiority all day, but the facts don't support their claims. And why should they not claim superiority? All races in comics seem to claim to be the superior race more often than not, why would the Skrull be any different?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Well considering Electra Skrull proved to be the equal. Example was Echo felt only Electra would kill her. Electra Skrull did.

Also look at the original Super Skrull. 4 F4 Powers and all are equal to them.

Also look at Spider woman. Her Powers as I proved were BETTER than the Originals.

Captain America Skrull fought Spider Man, Kazar, Sabu, and Kazar Girl at the same time! He was put down by Blow Darts from Kazars little tribe while fighting 3 Super Powered foes and a Skilled Chick.

Point is there is more proof and solid proof in the Skrulls who had more than a cameo than the ones that were key parts of the Secrete Invasion.

Yet at the same time I remember Miss Marvel trouncing through several Skrull clones of super heroes, including one of the Hulk She was able to grab him and drag him into space. Now this was while she was having troubles re-activating her Binary powers. Again, there are a lot of Skrull clones, and there have been a few powerful ones, mostly the mixed skrulls who have multiple people's powers. But more often than not they are beaten or destroyed.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#299 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@Floopay said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@CitizenBane: True that. My point is what was said to be fact and then PIS and WIS (different writers of different titles) mess it all up.

Example. AvX. We know Namor would spank Thing. We know Mags would spank IM. We know Iceman would spank Rulk. It doesnt happen at all that way.

So the Skrulls being beaten by good guys is to me a showing of PIS and the simple fact Good Guys win no matter what.

I just wanted to point oyt Black Bolt Skrull power looked legit and the New Avengers books confirm Skrulls are "suppose" to be equal if not better.

Supposed to be doesn't mean they are. In fact, you claim PIS, but the Skrull claiming them to be equals, seems to be more of their own hubris than anything. Yes, the Skrull clones sometimes have displayed powers that their originals either can't do, or are unaware they can do. Jessica Drews is a good example of that one. However, more often than not, the Skrull clones of whomever they are cloning, are defeated by their counterpart.

To me, that proves that if anything, they are less powerful than the original. Yes, they may have full awareness on how to use their powers, or may even have extra powers. But that means nothing if those extra powers are less potent than the originals. Black Bolts clone seemed to give a full shout and shattered what? A good chunk of the moon.

Black Bolts himself could distort time/space with a full blast. A mere whisper can be enough to decimate landscapes depending on his mood. I have my doubts that the Skrull clone was anywhere near him, especially seeing as it looked like the Hulk one shot him. The skrull can claim their superiority all day, but the facts don't support their claims. And why should they not claim superiority? All races in comics seem to claim to be the superior race more often than not, why would the Skrull be any different?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Well considering Electra Skrull proved to be the equal. Example was Echo felt only Electra would kill her. Electra Skrull did.

Also look at the original Super Skrull. 4 F4 Powers and all are equal to them.

Also look at Spider woman. Her Powers as I proved were BETTER than the Originals.

Captain America Skrull fought Spider Man, Kazar, Sabu, and Kazar Girl at the same time! He was put down by Blow Darts from Kazars little tribe while fighting 3 Super Powered foes and a Skilled Chick.

Point is there is more proof and solid proof in the Skrulls who had more than a cameo than the ones that were key parts of the Secrete Invasion.

Yet at the same time I remember Miss Marvel trouncing through several Skrull clones of super heroes, including one of the Hulk She was able to grab him and drag him into space. Now this was while she was having troubles re-activating her Binary powers. Again, there are a lot of Skrull clones, and there have been a few powerful ones, mostly the mixed skrulls who have multiple people's powers. But more often than not they are beaten or destroyed.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

And Doctor Doom is always beaten even with Beyonders or Galactus Power. Squirrel Girl beat Dr. Doom and Thanos. Spider Man KO Firelord. AvX in general.

The fact Ms Marvel trounce so many is to showcase good guys winning. The Skrulls cant win... at all. So it means little to me when a Big Sloppy Event like that is handled that way. My Facts stand as the Skrulls said as much and in Bendis Story (He came up with the stupid event) showcase that the Skrulls were equals if not better.

Otherwriters and Artist have the Good guys smaking them around like jokes.

At least my Facts have Narrated and Dialogue along with accurate showings vs the Assumption base on Showings by Bias Writers and sake of Good Guys winning.

#300 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Floopay said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@Floopay said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@CitizenBane: True that. My point is what was said to be fact and then PIS and WIS (different writers of different titles) mess it all up.

Example. AvX. We know Namor would spank Thing. We know Mags would spank IM. We know Iceman would spank Rulk. It doesnt happen at all that way.

So the Skrulls being beaten by good guys is to me a showing of PIS and the simple fact Good Guys win no matter what.

I just wanted to point oyt Black Bolt Skrull power looked legit and the New Avengers books confirm Skrulls are "suppose" to be equal if not better.

Supposed to be doesn't mean they are. In fact, you claim PIS, but the Skrull claiming them to be equals, seems to be more of their own hubris than anything. Yes, the Skrull clones sometimes have displayed powers that their originals either can't do, or are unaware they can do. Jessica Drews is a good example of that one. However, more often than not, the Skrull clones of whomever they are cloning, are defeated by their counterpart.

To me, that proves that if anything, they are less powerful than the original. Yes, they may have full awareness on how to use their powers, or may even have extra powers. But that means nothing if those extra powers are less potent than the originals. Black Bolts clone seemed to give a full shout and shattered what? A good chunk of the moon.

Black Bolts himself could distort time/space with a full blast. A mere whisper can be enough to decimate landscapes depending on his mood. I have my doubts that the Skrull clone was anywhere near him, especially seeing as it looked like the Hulk one shot him. The skrull can claim their superiority all day, but the facts don't support their claims. And why should they not claim superiority? All races in comics seem to claim to be the superior race more often than not, why would the Skrull be any different?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Well considering Electra Skrull proved to be the equal. Example was Echo felt only Electra would kill her. Electra Skrull did.

Also look at the original Super Skrull. 4 F4 Powers and all are equal to them.

Also look at Spider woman. Her Powers as I proved were BETTER than the Originals.

Captain America Skrull fought Spider Man, Kazar, Sabu, and Kazar Girl at the same time! He was put down by Blow Darts from Kazars little tribe while fighting 3 Super Powered foes and a Skilled Chick.

Point is there is more proof and solid proof in the Skrulls who had more than a cameo than the ones that were key parts of the Secrete Invasion.

Yet at the same time I remember Miss Marvel trouncing through several Skrull clones of super heroes, including one of the Hulk She was able to grab him and drag him into space. Now this was while she was having troubles re-activating her Binary powers. Again, there are a lot of Skrull clones, and there have been a few powerful ones, mostly the mixed skrulls who have multiple people's powers. But more often than not they are beaten or destroyed.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

And Doctor Doom is always beaten even with Beyonders or Galactus Power. Squirrel Girl beat Dr. Doom and Thanos. Spider Man KO Firelord. AvX in general.

The fact Ms Marvel trounce so many is to showcase good guys winning. The Skrulls cant win... at all. So it means little to me when a Big Sloppy Event like that is handled that way. My Facts stand as the Skrulls said as much and in Bendis Story (He came up with the stupid event) showcase that the Skrulls were equals if not better.

Otherwriters and Artist have the Good guys smaking them around like jokes.

At least my Facts have Narrated and Dialogue along with accurate showings vs the Assumption base on Showings by Bias Writers and sake of Good Guys winning.

So your stand here is even though they are beaten more often than not...they are still more powerful than their originals? I don't see how that makes sense. They are consistently being beaten by their counterparts, and yes there are many instances of them being equals, and sometimes even seem superior. However, in the past 50 years there have been so many skrull defeats that I would say it's more inconsistent for them to WIN or be BETTER than it is for them to be weaker than the originals. There are probably reasons why sometimes they come out better than other times, and it may have even been explained in comics. However, I think more often than not the superior Skrull Clones tend to be more amalgam than direct clones. That is, they have more in them than just one person's set of powers.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay