For me, I always had it in my head that Superman is faster than a speeding bullet... which is bloody fast. But not much faster than that.
This fast?
These are completely legit. The bullet one may be a bit of low-balling, but it clearly shows his reaction and fighting speed are not the same to his travel speed.
And Superman can hold his breathe in space, but he cannot survive in space indefinitely.
Didn't read all 8 pages so someone might have mentioned this
Superman can survive inside a black hole.
In the very few encounters superman has had with black holes in every instance it has been implied he would die if caught inside one. An artificial mini black hole was created and superman said his legs felt like they were being torn off being near it. He escapes from its pull and stops it by throwing a ship inside of it.
Even light can't escape a black hole there for he would HAVE to have been going faster to escape it.
Didn't read all 8 pages so someone might have mentioned this
Superman can survive inside a black hole.
In the very few encounters superman has had with black holes in every instance it has been implied he would die if caught inside one. An artificial mini black hole was created and superman said his legs felt like they were being torn off being near it. He escapes from its pull and stops it by throwing a ship inside of it.
Even light can't escape a black hole there for he would HAVE to have been going faster to escape it.
If that wasn't enough proof, the scan of Supes and Flash racing through a diner getting something and out before seen while talking would have been enough proof also.
Or his reaching the edge of the universe and Spectre trying to stop him
or other planet/ galaxy hoping feats (it takes 4.3 years for light to reach us from our nearest neighboring star) that clearly didn't take years to do.
Thor flew faster than light to help Rulk escape a black hole
- Thor grabbed Rulk before he flew into the event horizon. Not a superluminal feat
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Thor hurt Amatsu-Mikaboshi
- He laughed at Thor and Hercules attack
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Thor injured galactus
- Galactus didn't seem to be phased at all. He also nearly killed Thor
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Thor destroyed a planet in his fight with Beta Ray Bill
- It looks like it was an asteroid
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Thor has superluminal speed
- Like Silver surfer it would appear he can only reach superluminal speeds inside of hyperspace. Which would why his fights lack in the speed department. Most other pictures I've seen shows the usual flying around in space with no time given.
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Thor threw his hammer to the other side of the galaxy
- Thors hammer didn't get far at all before his father apparently sent it back to him to prevent Thor's suicide attempt.
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Beta Ray Bill
Beta Ray Bill can survive inside of a Sun
- The picture usually shown is out of context. Th narrator states that Beta ray Bill would have died if he had not regained consciousness before the expanded sun engulfed him.
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@Pokeysteve: @beatboks1: The rules of my thread are clear. I'm not going to debate with you the properties of a mini black hole vs the proprieties of an astrophysical black hole Nor will I debate feats that have already been debunked with scans. Especially when you don't have the comic title, issue number and the scans in question.
@Rumble Man: There have been many instances in which superman has been shown not be able to breath in space. Most writers say he just holds his breath. I know that was the case in For Tomorrow and World of New Krypton. And every time i see your name i think of this song
Thor flew faster than light to help Rulk escape a black hole
- Thor grabbed Rulk before he flew into the event horizon. Not a superluminal feat
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When you try to debunk a feat, could you at least put the full scans on rather than putting an incomplete set of scans.
Hulk Vol 4, 27
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Specially the third scan, which you are missing, certainly looks like he passed through the event horizon to me.
Also Thor hurting Galactus is from a different issue than the one you are quoting, a much earlier issue as well as a more recent issue (when he was in TP battle with Odin).
@Pokeysteve: @beatboks1: The rules of my thread are clear. I'm not going to debate with you the properties of a mini black hole vs the proprieties of an astrophysical black hole Nor will I debate feats that have already been debunked with scans. Especially when you don't have the comic title, issue number and the scans in question.
OK the whole point of debating is to discuss things. You blanking people's comments here just so it fits with your thread plus Killemall's debunking of your own inconsistency is getting on my nerves. Try some reasonable discussion rather than point blank ignorance.
Pretty sure in Blood and Thunder he destroyed a planetoid. Very similar to the thing Gladiator breaks (which others claim to be a planet as well, but it's not).
As for Thor flying through a black hole, I don't think that would be that difficult to accept.
@Killemall: correct me if I'm wrong on this. But IIRC Voidian conjured two singularities a few feet to either side of Beta Ray Bill during Godhunter #1, and he came out of that encounter pretty much unharmed. Granted, Beta Ray Bill isn't Thor, but the two are generally portrayed as relative equals (I personally believe BRB has shown to be Thor's superior, but the two never really have a one sided fight). Or was it in the Secret Invasion: Green of Eden #1? Voidian hasn't been in many comics, but I'm sure that it's in one of those story arcs.
Alright, took more than a bit of googling around, but I finally found the scans I was referring to!
@Killemall: How about you just read the pictures more carefully. In the second scan I posted it clearly stated they did not past the event horizon. It doesn't even state that they went over the event horizon in the scans you posted, making your entire post pointless. It's seems unnecessary that I need to respond to accusations because of your failure to read. Before you get the notion that I'm going to debate you on this, don't
@Floopay: An asteroid is a planetoid. Beta ray bill clearly wasny sucked into the singularities, he destroys the machine before it was able to.And then there's this
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@Lvenger: I'm not going to discuss peoples guesses. I'm not going to debate semantics. I've been clear on this. This is not a debate thread. If you want to debate there are thousands of other threads you can do that it in. I haven't blanked anyone's comments.Also Thor hurting Galactus is from a different issue than the one you are quoting, a much earlier issue as well as a more recent issue (when he was in TP battle with Odin)" From day one I've been more than clear on the rules of this thread. Rules that you both continue to ignore. Unedited scan, comic title, and issue number. Instead you both make accusations and spread more rumors. If you cant provide the three things stated in the op, then don't post here. If you don't have a question or a request, don't post here. If you have a problem with any of that, too bad. You guys arent adding much to this thread. Next time i'm flagging.
@Killemall: How about you just read the pictures more carefully. In the second scan I posted it clearly stated they did not past the event horizon. It doesn't even state that they went over the event horizon in the scans you posted, making your entire post pointless. It's seems unnecessary that I need to respond to accusations because of your failure to read. Before you get the notion that I'm going to debate you on this, don't
@Floopay: An asteroid is a planetoid. Beta ray bill clearly wasny sucked into the singularities, he destroys the machine before it was able to.And then there's this
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@Lvenger: I'm not going to discuss your guesses. I'm not going to debate semantics. I've been clear on this. This is not a debate thread. If you want to debate there are thousands of other threads you can do that it in. I haven't blanked anyone's comments. From day one I've been more than clear on the rules of this thread. Rules that you continue to ignore. Unedited scan comic title, and issue number. If you cant provide those three things, then don't post here. If you don't have a question or a request, don't post here. If you have a problem with any of that, too bad. The next time i'll flag.
Ah, been awhile since I've read the issues. Forgot about the Stardust scenario with Alpha Ray. Thanks for the clarification.
I will say this though, those Singularities are clearly in effect, as he is almost completely paralyzed, had they not been brought into existence, he wouldn't have been hanging there. Stormbreaker was able to be thrown and resist the effect and destroy the machine, but his body was clearly capable of withstanding equal pull from both singularities simultaneously without ripping him to shreds, which is quite the feat. Just going to point that out.
@Killemall: How about you just read the pictures more carefully. In the second scan I posted it clearly stated they did not past the event horizon. It doesn't even state that they went over the event horizon in the scans you posted, making your entire post pointless. It's seems unnecessary that I need to respond to accusations because of your failure to read. Before you get the notion that I'm going to debate you on this, don't
Firstly my point was when you debunk a feat, post full scan.
Secondly, lets break it down some-more
Firstly, Watcher says you are near black hole before Rulk starts falling (the falling part last 2 pages)
Then we have him falling through some horizon
And you whole argument seem to be revolving around Buce Banner's comments who states "it sound like you save him before the black hole", not including how it was depicted or the fact that banner wasnt there to begin with.
If you cant provide the three things stated in the op, then don't post here. If you don't have a question or a request, don't post here. If you have a problem with any of that, too bad. You guys arent adding much to this thread. Next time i'm flagging.
Very well lets try. Thor has never hurt Galactus.
The Mighty Thor, Volume 1, 161
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As per the second instance i mentioned
The Mighty Thor, Volume 4, Issue 04
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Here you have galactus crying out in pain
Certainly looks like Galactus was hurt, i mean he doesnt go AAAAAAAAAAAAAa-- , for no reason i would assume.
Try and not debunk a feat when you know little about the character.
Silver Surfer has Superluminal combot and flight speed.
- It would seem that the Silver Surfer cant obtain faster than light speed without traveling through a wormhole/hyperspace.
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- Enters warp-space and upon existing he is eventually hit by a meteor
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Silver surfer has gone FTL Before.
Lets see.
Silver surfer volume 1, Issue 06: Travels FTL to goes to a potential future so surfer can escape the galactus's barrier
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I dont see a mention of Hyperspace do you?
Killem all, nice scans. I would upload my own, but my digital copies of SS won't seem to upload from laptop. Oh well. I'm sure you can confirm:
1) The idea that the Surfer can't travel faster than light without entering hyperspace is mularkey. Plain and simple. The first 18 issues of the Silver Surfer, Surfer not only exceeds light speed, but travels forward and backward through time with great accuracy. Time travel in those comics cannot be achieved without breaking the light speed barrier. Flash fans will make the same assertion (that Surfer cannot exceed light speed without entering hyperspace). It simply has no basis.
2) It was not until John Byrne's (1982) one-shot that hyperspace is ever even mentioned. Hyperspace is a FICTIONAL explanation used by science ficition authors to explain the ability of someone, or something, to achieve faster than light speeds. There are a variety of different notions about hyperspace and warp speeds. Some indicate that warp speed and travel through hyperspace is what allows light speed travel. Others, hyperspace is "entered into" and warp speeds achieved BECAUSE an object has broken the light speed barrier. Having said that, it appears to me that the Surfer achieve's faster than light travel through sheer, raw speed, as your scans clearly indicate. Another impressive scan can be found in Mighty Thor 193, where The Surfer breaks the light speed barrier...while fighting Durok. He drops Durok off on a future version of earth and travels back in time to the EXACT point he left.
Christ, I almost fell out of my chair when I read Binder_Full_of_Women said Surfer is NOT superliminal.
@Pokeysteve: @beatboks1: The rules of my thread are clear. I'm not going to debate with you the properties of a mini black hole vs the proprieties of an astrophysical black hole Nor will I debate feats that have already been debunked with scans. Especially when you don't have the comic title, issue number and the scans in question.
Ignoring science really isn't helping along the credibility of your thread. Also I can't post a scan, an issue number or comic title because I don't have any Physics text books.
And again...the problem comes in reconciling comic feats, which oftern ignore the laws of physics, with the real world. It takes a discerning reader to read between the lines to ascertain a measure of a truth about a character's feats. Also, writers are not astro physicists, but we can still read between the lines and arrive at a measure of truth about a character's abilities.
There has been some research using attosecond lasers to "slow down" exposure time on cameras in order to clarify moving objects on camera. Like lightyears, both distance and time are involved in an understanding of pico seconds, atto seconds and femto seconds.
Having said that, Binder_Full makes some excellent points. But is there a way to read between the lines? I think the simple answer goes back to writer's and their nominal understanding of physics (and unquestionably, I am no physics major). For example, the feat of The Flash evacuating the city in 100 atto seconds? While it ignores the fact that DC speedsters regularly struggle after crossing the light speed barrier (Wally is the only one that does it with a measure of control...without using the cosmic treadmill), the feat, in my opinion, should simply be an indicator of The Flash's blazing speed. That's it. Yes, the math is jacked up on that one, but that should not invalidate the feat itself.
And one more more thing about Superman's speed. I've remembered a scan where Flash notes that he, Superman, Wonder Woman and MM all move faster than thought and have one second to come up with a plan before the guards notice what they are doing and retaliate. And the speed of thought is roughly thought of as being the same as light speed. Here's the scan as proof which is something you always want:
To lay to rest once and for all this bull that Superman can't go faster than light.
Here are the scans of him escaping a black whole
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Here he moves so fast that he can be clearly seen in multiples (without blur between). He's moved fast enough for the light from three different places he's been reach the same point at the same time, but so fast that nothing is visible of him between those points
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And here he moves so fast that he vibrates his molecules (al la Flash) and passes through something.
Now he doesn't have the acceleration of a Flash as in all of these it took him a while to build up that level of speed, but he clearly can exceed light speed when he wants to
Now as to Superman moving a planet well
Superman is not only pulling the earth but against the TK pull of Starbreaker who moved it to start with. So much of a strength feat that all of GL's will can barely make his towing construct hold together. Considering that GL force fields by Kyle have contained exploding solar systems that's quite a bit of strength.
Then again what is their definition for 'speed of thought' , or is it just a vague way to say 'LOL I am faster than you"
10 times speed of thought? Spider-Man's perception (or reflexes) is above 10 times faster than normal human and he isn't speedsters. Going by that logic, Spider-Man should be able to see Superman moving!
@Rumble Man: Superman: Red Son, is an else world story and hence non-canon though.
@Malevolent1: I actually know few more instances where Surfer has gone FLT including the instance you mentioned. He travels FLT in the same issue i mentioned above, so as to come back to present era. Silver Surfer volume 3, 51 he travels to earth past alongside Nova and we know, and there is no mentioned of Hyperspeed, and a whole noting that travel FLT using hyperspeed doesnt allow you time travel to show he didnt. He is also done exactly the same in Silver Surer volume 3, 151, although with the Duroc incident (whom he managed to KO as well, which was weird, given Thor couldnt do jack against him).
@Rumble Man: Superman: Red Son, is an else world story and hence non-canon though.
@Malevolent1: I actually know few more instances where Surfer has gone FLT including the instance you mentioned. He travels FLT in the same issue i mentioned above, so as to come back to present era. Silver Surfer volume 3, 51 he travels to earth past alongside Nova and we know, and there is no mentioned of Hyperspeed, and a whole noting that travel FLT using hyperspeed doesnt allow you time travel to show he didnt. He is also done exactly the same in Silver Surer volume 3, 151, although with the Duroc incident (whom he managed to KO as well, which was weird, given Thor couldnt do jack against him).
I agree Surfer can go FTL with flight speed, but I think he was referring to combat and flight speed as in while in combat. At least that's how I interpreted it.
@Lvenger said:
And one more more thing about Superman's speed. I've remembered a scan where Flash notes that he, Superman, Wonder Woman and MM all move faster than thought and have one second to come up with a plan before the guards notice what they are doing and retaliate. And the speed of thought is roughly thought of as being the same as light speed. Here's the scan as proof which is something you always want:
The speed of thought is not at the speed of light. It is much much slower. Now neural pathways can be contected at the speed of light, but there's also a huge biochemical aspect to what goes on behind a thought or idea. In fact, some things happen before our brain even interprets what has happened. Like when you touch something hot and move your hand off of it BEFORE you feel any sense of pain or realize that something was hot. Your hand was there for half a second before your removed it, and before your brain could process what happened. However, that's still far slower than the speed of light. I'm just saying.
@beatboks1: Excellent scans and analysis. But there's one scan you forgot to post to lay to rest the planet moving rubbish about Superman. During the JLA: WW3 storyline, Superman is chained and moves the gears of a machine that is roughly the size of Jupiter. Not only is he moving a planetary sized object, he is also doing it without a sun dip or assistance.
@Rumble Man: Superman: Red Son, is an else world story and hence non-canon though.
@Malevolent1: I actually know few more instances where Surfer has gone FLT including the instance you mentioned. He travels FLT in the same issue i mentioned above, so as to come back to present era. Silver Surfer volume 3, 51 he travels to earth past alongside Nova and we know, and there is no mentioned of Hyperspeed, and a whole noting that travel FLT using hyperspeed doesnt allow you time travel to show he didnt. He is also done exactly the same in Silver Surer volume 3, 151, although with the Duroc incident (whom he managed to KO as well, which was weird, given Thor couldnt do jack against him).
I was disappointed by this thread, cause I knew alot of the points he mentioned were wrong. Killemall's brilliance confirms my fears. I just glad he hasn't tried to debunk Thanos or Spider-Man yet.
@Lvenger: While meggadon itself is the size of the jupitor, all he managed do was move part of the engine, which i assume would be much smaller. Not as impressive feat as one often interpret it to be.
@laflux: while i applaud the concept behind thread, and this is genuinely a brilliant idea, and he started pretty well to be fair, he seem to get a little too excited and try to debunk feat about character i fear he has limited knowledge of and he frankly seem to try and debunk feat he has seen from various thread. I think it would have been a lot better of him to say, in this instance Thor never hurt galactus, rather than claim Thor hasnt never hurt galactus , and stuffs along the line.
Also Thanos and spiderman feats are hard to debunk, there are at the least 4 spiderman expert on vine who are regularly active, and most people seem to know Thanos quite well too, after all he's a rather popular villain. If he tried to debunk, i am pretty sure people can start correct him.
The only feat from Thanos i think its prudent to debunk would be perhaps his fight with Odin, where people tend to interpret it as stalemate when in later encounter Thanos (later retconned to Thanoside) actually expressly addresses it as a loss.
The only feat from Thanos i think its prudent to debunk would be perhaps his fight with Odin, where people tend to interpret it as stalemate when in later encounter Thanos (later retconned to Thanoside) actually expressly addresses it as a loss.
TBH the only reason why Thanos lasted so long was because Odin didn't use his enchanted spear to amplify his blasts, which is kinda silly since his spear is part of his standard equipment. While it was definitely a good showing for Thanos, the winner was always clear.
- The picture usually shown is out of context. Th narrator states that Beta ray Bill would have died if he had not regained consciousness before the expanded sun engulfed him.
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It only suggested one of possibilities, while You can see on Your own eyes, that Bill is present in sun.
- The picture usually shown is out of context. Th narrator states that Beta ray Bill would have died if he had not regained consciousness before the expanded sun engulfed him.
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It only suggested one of possibilities, while You can see on Your own eyes, that Bill is present in sun.
Also, the scans show nothing of him being damaged within the sun. In fact, I would be more inclined to believe that the sun is what revived him. Beta Ray Bill has shown on several occasions to be revived from consciousness due to intense heat. The first instance I can recall of this happening is when him and Thor fight for the second time in hand to hand combat, and they both stalemate near a volcano, at which point the heat revives Beta Ray Bill and he picks up Thor and flies back to Odin.
The only instance I recall of him having problems with heat is when he is thrown back into Asgard and thinks he's in hell because of all the fire on re-entry. But even that isn't enough to so much as send him unconscious.
@Killemall can probably provide the issue I'm referring to, when it comes to Thor he seems to know offhand pretty quickly, whereas I have to spend an hour googling for the scans I'm referring to, or the issue number.
@Rumble Man: Superman: Red Son, is an else world story and hence non-canon though.
@Malevolent1: I actually know few more instances where Surfer has gone FLT including the instance you mentioned. He travels FLT in the same issue i mentioned above, so as to come back to present era. Silver Surfer volume 3, 51 he travels to earth past alongside Nova and we know, and there is no mentioned of Hyperspeed, and a whole noting that travel FLT using hyperspeed doesnt allow you time travel to show he didnt. He is also done exactly the same in Silver Surer volume 3, 151, although with the Duroc incident (whom he managed to KO as well, which was weird, given Thor couldnt do jack against him).
Exactly. There are literally numerous occasions where the Surfer has not only exceeded light speed but traveled time. He has done this in own series routinely. With the Durok fight, that was a funny one, eh? Durok clearly outclassed both Thor and the Surfer in a straight up brawl in that issue. Surfer takes off with Durok, breaks the time barrier and incredibly, they are still brawling after having broken the time barrier. When Surfer arrives at a future version of earth, Durok is out cold. I always took that as Durok having become disoriented during the time travel, not from anything that the Surfer did in H2H combat. Of course, the issue itself is vague as to how Durok ended up unconscious, but again, that is just my take.
@Rumble Man: Yeah, speed of thought is not speed of light. Hell considering how long it takes me to put a thought together it's not even speed of sound (lol)
@beatboks1: scientific papers says that too, a couple of miliseconds
on an off-note I am not impressed with superman tanking anything that comes from the sun, because that is the very substance that powers him up. It is just the same as saying, that vampire can withstand being drowned in a sea of blood.
on an off-note I am not impressed with superman tanking anything that comes from the sun, because that is the very substance that powers him up. It is just the same as saying, that vampire can withstand being drowned in a sea of blood.
I agree, but it depends on the radiation bandwidth that is being given as well. Remenber he's only powered by yellow sun radiation. A red bandwidth (which has NEVER made any scientific sense at all) would be quite harmful.
@beatboks1: But that did not seem to be the case when he and superman of earth-2 rand SPB through a red sun, sure they were dazed and depowered but nobody got vaped.
@beatboks1: But that did not seem to be the case when he and superman of earth-2 rand SPB through a red sun, sure they were dazed and depowered but nobody got vaped.
Yeah I love how they conveniently retcon facts to suit the current story. A recent retcon prior said that he doesn't absorb Red K, only yellow. SO where for decades red K radiation would almost instantly depower him he simply no longer has a power source, so the energy he expends isn't being replaced. Under a red Sun now he would slowly loose his powers. That would still mean that since his body can't absorb red radiation a blast of that nature would have more ( not saying great) effect than one of Yellow.
just the goddamn writers (honestly think they should make a board where they note feats so that the next writer can use that on their stories, to establish consistency)
All I get so far from this Thread is Superman has very Inconsistant Showings of Strength and Speed. High End Feats Show FTL as well Planet Busting. Average Showings is below Lightspeed and sall Moon Busting.
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