• 186 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
#1 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

With the new rule over Anime open everyone is lunging into DBZ vs DC heavy hitters frenzy. Yet even for knwoledgable DB/DBZ/GT debaters they break the Carnal Rule of this Battle Forum and Debate something that is Inconsistent and largely unexplained.

Honestly Power scaling as no place here. We cant use Arguments of "So and so has power level 100 billion and it takes only 500 to destroy a planet. He must be a Sky Father!"

That is just BS and unfounded.

What we can debate is actual feats from the Manga (byitself), Show (by itself), or the Manga and Show (Largely made exact to the Manga with added Filler).

These feat we seen or characters have said can be use as feats.

Example Batman says Wonder Woman is Combat Faster than Superman. Is this BS? Or Accurate Statement. Anybody on these threads take that as statement. When Piccolo says Goku move past the Light of a attack... is he BS or making a statement? What is the difference between the 2 really beside rabid fanboys on both sides?

Point is we have Feats to go by.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

KI Power

Goku had higher Power Level than Kais Cricket friend. Yet the stupid Cricket was WAY Faster. Same as Captain Ginyu was uber higher in Power to Bertha but Bertha and Jess were the Fastest Members. Also Trunks and Vegeta both hit the Super Sayian 1 Buff Mark where they had more power but were slower to Cell.

So Power Level is not everything.

Its common knowledge DBZ is Near Light speed in Combat Speed. Travel speed is slower by showings. They use Ki for quick burst attacks. Its even stated many times a Spike in power when they go Near Lightspeed to FTL.

Piccolo wanted the Moon Gone. He put alot of Ki into the Speed and Power so Gohan stop trashing the place. Also you (and many others who dont seem to grasp unfolding battles in the show) Ki bleeding.

The more Ki the DBZ characters use the more tired they are and easier to wound as well weaker and slower attacks. They dont use Attacks at all at super planet buster or FTL speed cause its draining and leaves them in a bad spot should it fail.

Some characters are naturally faster and or more powerful than others. Krillin is the PEAK of Humans with Ki and training. He pales to Sayains that have Naturaly way more Ki and better way to build more of it thru battles. Also there have been characters who are lower in Power level but were faster than higher ones.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Showings of ki Speed

Outran and snatch Master Roshi Glasses from a Lightbase Solar Flare.

FTL to me.

Another Comment of Out moving Light which is the Speed of Light.... how interesting. Also shows a Lightspeed blast like attack via Frieza

Alot say this means nothing... well the time it take to say BE GONE the moon is vaporized. Thats near Lightspeed if not FTL and Moon Busting at the least.

Hell even the Anime of this feat base completly off the DBZ writer Manga (And overseen by said writer) has this clip.

Well thats like Flash speed there.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As for Strength the Raw Striking Power of DBZ is shown to max at BUSTING Mountains and maybe Islands. Nowhere Moon busting in Fist fights or Kicks.

However like Speed DBZ can put alot of Ki into Blocking or Deflecting said Moon Busting and Planet Busting Ki Attacks.

_

This applies to Strength of Ki Energy Attacks.

It has been stated many times Vegeta can Blow up a planet. Galick Gun vs Goku. Final Flash vs Cell. His ki Blast vs Frieza. If Master Roshi and Piccolo have Blown up our Moon with ease why cant vegeta a Planet when its been stated?

Does this mean ALL DBZ guys are Planet Busters? Hell no. By Feats only a few have shown it. Vegeta, Frieza, Goku, and some others. They have Specifically shown or stated Feats of such Caliber while Roshi and Piccolo manage Moon Busting only.

Mostly they rely on there Ki Energy Attacks.

To Horizon is impressive Blasting Power that cost Frieza very little Ki to his OVERALL Ki Levels.

At the end of the day the Striking power is low but they make up for this with their Martial Arts. There Durability vs Ki Attacks is proven.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ki Durability

Another problem with DBZ Durability Showings is like Wonder Woman to Bullets and Piercing Weapons the DBZ guys are to Heat of the Magma.

Examples of this are Broly (non cannon) being killed by a combination of Kamehameha and Sun. Goku desperately afraid of being flung into the a Star on his Space journey to Namek. Or Goku carefully avoiding the Magma from Namek like it was... Magma. Also Super Sayian 4 Goku (GT is non cannon but whatever) avoiding the 4 Star Dragon Sun Level Heat Attacks for fear of being killed should he get hit.

All this shows Heat on Magma or Higher level is by far a weakness to DBZ fighters.

As Desribe Above they Block and Parry Planet Attacks with their Ki and they also can easily tank Mountain Shattering Hits.

No problem there Durability wise.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ki Bleeding and Power Level

Last thing I feel the need to cover.Honestly Power Levels no matter how you slice it is never been truly defined. Period. Its been shown by Babidi sizing up Goku that soo much Power Equals so much Planet Busting blah blah blah. Who cares?

This is a endless and fruitless debate. Lets Debate what we actually see and know.

Power Levels all have in common is the more Ki you have the more Ki you can use in battle.

This makes sense and is apptly applied to any DBZ Video Game. Its always a power reserve of how much Ki you can use to Block, Strike, Blast, Speed, ect ect.

Ki Bleeding is always a BIG part of DB/DBZ/GT Franchise. Character A) Has more power and lasts longer with less wounds than weaker Power B). Well as we seen When you lose the energy to block, strike, blast, ect then your getting your butt kicked. The Power Level may increase Speed and Strength however all that Strength and Speed Increase is all due to how much Ki you can use.

Again we should Debate more on facts of actual Speed Feats and Strength Feats rather than our own BS Fan Made Calculations.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Well I feel if we can apply this to the Forum Rules we can tone down the DBZ hate a bit by really debating rather than relying on Power Scaling.

Anybody who wants to contribute some solid showing Scans please do or debunk them with facts rather than bias fanboy hate please do.

DO REALIZE DB/DBZ/GT LIKE ALL COMICS AND MANGA HAS INCONSTANT SHOWINGS. Instead of nitpicking low Balling Showings we should look at consistent (as in more than once) Showings.

#2 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19908 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone should debunk Vegeta blowing up a planet off-panel pre-Saiyan Saga, because that can be confusing sometimes. Did he blow it up with Nappa? Was it non-canon?

#3 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek said:

Someone should debunk Vegeta blowing up a planet off-panel pre-Saiyan Saga, because that can be confusing sometimes. Did he blow it up with Nappa? Was it non-canon?

It was filler for the DBZ Anime only. So Manga wise it should be disregarded. Manga with Anime or only Anime Versions Debates it could be seen as Legit.

#4 Posted by jashro44 (19535 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't this just go in the regular debunk thread?

#5 Posted by NyghtMare (403 posts) - - Show Bio

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek: That was anime only, but Vegeta blew it up by himself with a simple finger blast when his power level was just over 1200. Going by that, Krillin would be a planet buster by the end of the show.

But Vegeta did blow up a planet when he used the Final Shine against Cell.

#6 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Copy and Paste. :) I just had to get this out.

#7 Posted by jashro44 (19535 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: fair enough

#8 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19908 posts) - - Show Bio

@NyghtMare: @CadenceV2:

Well I've heard that DBZ characters concentrate their blasts onto their opponent, so a single stray energy blast could blow up a planet by the end of DBZ. Is that true?

#9 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@NyghtMare said:

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek: That was anime only, but Vegeta blew it up by himself with a simple finger blast when his power level was just over 1200. Going by that, Krillin would be a planet buster by the end of the show.

But Vegeta did blow up a planet when he used the Final Shine against Cell.

Thats my point there. By the crazy Power scalin and lack of Feats I see no reason as a reasonable debate vs Krillin that Krillin is a Planet buster. If he didnt even show much power in his attacks in most cases. Thats why we should stick with characters Showings and DBZ has enough Uber Showings to reasonably debate with. As in case Vegeta's Final Shine.

#10 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek said:

@NyghtMare: @CadenceV2:

Well I've heard that DBZ characters concentrate their blasts onto their opponent, so a single stray energy blast could blow up a planet by the end of DBZ. Is that true?

If the attack was Planet Buster in strength to begin with.

However Sayians CANNOT Breath in Space (Hold Breath sure) so they dont really Bust Planets unless they are desperate or in Vegetas case Blood Lusted.

#11 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: dude, you are my hero

#12 Posted by RumbleMan_Exe (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

Cell potential to blow up solar system...

hype or fact?

need clarification

#13 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

I gotta repost something that i'd like to clarify in regards to the whole attitude that "galaxy buster=unbeatable"

Honestly, people are putting too much stock in the 'galaxy buster' title. Sure, Broly can destroy a solar system with one powerful blast....but Shaka can bring him down to size with the Treasure of Heaven...and he doesn't need to destroy galaxies and whatnot. One is a bulldozer, the other one is a precise instrument.

The fact that you can bust a solar system doesn't mean you can't lose against someone with lesser destructive potential.

#14 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11264 posts) - - Show Bio

Well clearly the Earth is smaller than the real Earth. The place is filled with cities not countries. Just look at the games.

#15 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11264 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, half of them scans have clearly been edited by fans. You can see the difference.

#16 Posted by nickzambuto (12856 posts) - - Show Bio

@RumbleMan_Exe said:

Cell potential to blow up solar system...

hype or fact?

need clarification

He said he could so I don't see why he can't.

#17 Posted by nickzambuto (12856 posts) - - Show Bio

@Supreme Marvel said:

Well clearly the Earth is smaller than the real Earth. The place is filled with cities not countries. Just look at the games.

That's terrible logic.

#18 Edited by Floopay (8598 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:@nickzambuto: @Jayfournines: @RumbleMan_Exe:

Many people claim the Ki Blasts are slow because of the anime. What they fail to realize, is the anime has to show the attacks moving at speeds slower than what they actually move at, because if they showed them moving at light speed, then there wouldn't be a show, because we wouldn't actually see it happen. In the manga, they can show these things because they are snapshots of what is happening, so we can see the energy bolt and know it's moving light speed.

The same thing happens in Star Wars. People see the movies and the crappy tv series, and they assume blaster shots are no faster than a bullet. Well that's obviously false, the only reason they look so slow is because if they were shown moving at the speeds they are supposed to be assumed to move at, then nobody would see them.

Not to mention I've heard the whole "well they had time for a conversation while that blast was happening" thing. Well, that doesn't really indicate anything. Superman, the Flash, Black Adam, and so many other speedsters in the DC Universe have conversation while moving at super speeds, so why can't the Dragonball speedsters, who have proven they are faster than most DC and Marvel speedsters, do the same thing? They move at FTL speeds, and react at FTL speeds, why can they not converse at FTL speeds?

Anyway, that's my piece on this thread.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#19 Edited by RumbleMan_Exe (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@RumbleMan_Exe said:

Cell potential to blow up solar system...

hype or fact?

need clarification

He said he could so I don't see why he can't.

question is the method, nobody in dragon ball is shown to starbust

planet blasting is shown by visual evidence

@Jayfournines:

Sure, Broly can destroy a solar system with one powerful blast....

Pretty big claim, did they present evidence ?

#20 Posted by nickzambuto (12856 posts) - - Show Bio

@RumbleMan_Exe said:

@nickzambuto said:

@RumbleMan_Exe said:

Cell potential to blow up solar system...

hype or fact?

need clarification

He said he could so I don't see why he can't.

question is the method, nobody in dragon ball is shown to starbust

planet blasting is shown by visual evidence

@Jayfournines:

Sure, Broly can destroy a solar system with one powerful blast....

Pretty big claim, did they present evidence ?

I assume his Super Kamehameha against Gohan was just so powerful, the boom would encompass everything in the solar system if he wanted it to.

v Broly destroying a galaxy,

People claim he actually did it over a period of time, but I don't remember that ever being mentioned in the movie.

#21 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll go ahead with the Saint Seiya debunking. I'm seeing in a bunch of threads the mention that they are galaxy busters...which is completely false, no Saint (not even the gold ones or the bronze ones with god armor) are on that level; if you pay close attention, most of the powers in SS tend to deal with the spiritual/sense/mind and BFR. Not even the gods themselves were shown to be Galaxy busters.

Another point i'd like to address is Gold Saints moving at the speed of light and Bronze saints moving at the speed of sound. This is somewhat true...but not in the sense like we are used to. Supposedly their attacks do fly at the speed of light, and some of them are known to react and/or evade attacks of that magnitude...but Saints are never seen moving, fighting or running at that speed; the closes we saw was Milo running and attacking Radamanthys at what looked like high end speeds, but are never really specified.

#22 Posted by RumbleMan_Exe (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

seven seconds

from the seven second mark

either blast was chain reaction (unlikely never showed any attack of that kind before)

it is possible that he spammed his blast to destroy it one planet/star at a time at a rapid pace

you can see a pattern there

#23 Posted by nickzambuto (12856 posts) - - Show Bio

@RumbleMan_Exe said:

@nickzambuto:

seven seconds

from the seven second mark

either blast was chain reaction (unlikely never showed any attack of that kind before)

it is possible that he spammed his blast to destroy it one planet/star at a time at a rapid pace

you can see a pattern there

The blast didn't vaporize the entire area in an instant; the boom spread out through the galaxy one zone at a time, that's why we see each planet flicker out.

#24 Posted by RumbleMan_Exe (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: We did not see a blast, only a spread of destruction

These are kid buu's notice that there is no big encompassing explosion yet only a constant erosion of planets,

no big galaxy busting shown (implied or whatever but not shown)

In fact method not mentioned

#25 Posted by nickzambuto (12856 posts) - - Show Bio

@RumbleMan_Exe said:

@nickzambuto: We did not see a blast, only a spread of destruction

These are kid buu's notice that there is no big encompassing explosion yet only a constant erosion of planets,

no big galaxy busting shown (implied or whatever but not shown)

In fact method not mentioned

Then I guess Broly just flew across an entire galaxy in an instant, one-shotting every single planet as he went.

That might in fact be a better feat.

#26 Posted by Dextersinister (5756 posts) - - Show Bio

If Vegeta blowing up a planet was filler then wouldn't that mean that in canon it requires a lot more power to pull off the feat as full powered Freiza failed to put enough power behind his attack, a moment which was much later in the show.

#27 Posted by jashro44 (19535 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Then I guess Broly just flew across an entire galaxy in an instant, one-shotting every single planet as he went.

That might in fact be a better feat.

He does have a space ship.

#28 Edited by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

Another Saint Seiya fact that can be debunked: Saints are easily harmed by physical forces; Tremi of Saggita shot a real arrow at Seiya and it actually harmed him, cloth did nothing; Black Pegasus hit seiya with poison on a part unprotected by the cloth, it did physical damage. Saints are also succeptible to being 'cooked' inside their armors when facing re-entry into the atmosphere; this is how Shiryu killed Shura and how Kannon killed one of the judges of Hell; usually the golden armor will hold, but the person inside will burn.

the armors mainly protect from energy based attacks but are easily damaged by strong physical forces and will usually break.

#29 Posted by nickzambuto (12856 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto:

Then I guess Broly just flew across an entire galaxy in an instant, one-shotting every single planet as he went.

That might in fact be a better feat.

He does have a space ship.

Doubt Broly has the patience to sit in a spaceship and systematically go planet-to-planet.

#30 Posted by RumbleMan_Exe (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Then I guess Broly just flew across an entire galaxy in an instant, one-shotting every single planet as he went.
That might in fact be a better feat.

now that is something agreeable

but that is rarely shown, but what is shown is him screaming in space and spinning around as he blasts ki balls at planets (did not know exact scene but I do know for sure it is the one where paragus got his eye punched out)

#31 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: question, is Broly canon or not?

#32 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11264 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Supreme Marvel said:

Well clearly the Earth is smaller than the real Earth. The place is filled with cities not countries. Just look at the games.

That's terrible logic.

How? This is DBZ's Earth

Goku as a kid travelled a lot of that rather quickly, while walking with his tiny legs. The majority he was staying in places but he travelled it in short time walking as a normal person would walk.

If a person walked around our Earth (3,959 miles) like he did, it would take nearly 2.7 years. Walking at average speed of a human - 3mph. IF he walked for 12 hours a day for nearly 1000 days. The martial arts tournament was what, 3 years? We know he stopped a lot of the time to help people, and often stayed for a long period of time. We know Goku walked the same as normal people because he walked with normal people to get to other places. So by them calculations, Earth would have to be vastly smaller.

I'm led to believe Toriyama said Earth was smaller. I'll see if I can find it.

#33 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines: No. He's not.

#34 Posted by jashro44 (19535 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto:

Then I guess Broly just flew across an entire galaxy in an instant, one-shotting every single planet as he went.

That might in fact be a better feat.

He does have a space ship.

Doubt Broly has the patience to sit in a spaceship and systematically go planet-to-planet.

All we can do is speculate. Also did he even destroy it? They said he was destroying the south galaxy but that's the galaxy where the movie takes place and there are several stars in the sky. I would assume its a hyperbole to be honest.

#35 Edited by Laurcus (1299 posts) - - Show Bio

On the topic of galaxy busting. It's kind of a moot point if it was done all at once or in chunks. If it was done in chunks, it would have had to be extremely large chunks. Blowing up 1 planet at a time, or even one solar system at a time would take a ridiculous amount of time, definitely more than Broly's lifetime. And according to Supreme Kai, Buu was active for only a few years before he was sealed up.

The technique Vegeta used against Cell is the Final Flash, not Final Shine. Final Shine is one of his GT moves that was only used a handful of times.

Saiyans cannot breathe in space, as there is no air in space. The question is if they need to breathe at all. The Saiyans have been proven capable of spending extended amounts of time in space, as it is a fact that Saiyans migrated from their original homeworld to Planet Plant 1000 years before they acquired space flight technology from the Arcosians. There's also no case of a Saiyan suffocating to death, just statements made by Frieza that Goku took as fact.

Depends on what you view as canon. He's strictly a movie character, so interpret that how you will.

#36 Posted by Floopay (8598 posts) - - Show Bio

@Supreme Marvel said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Supreme Marvel said:

Well clearly the Earth is smaller than the real Earth. The place is filled with cities not countries. Just look at the games.

That's terrible logic.

How? This is DBZ's Earth

Goku as a kid travelled a lot of that rather quickly, while walking with his tiny legs. The majority he was staying in places but he travelled it in short time walking as a normal person would walk.

If a person walked around our Earth (3,959 miles) like he did, it would take nearly 2.7 years. Walking at average speed of a human - 3mph. IF he walked for 12 hours a day for nearly 1000 days. The martial arts tournament was what, 3 years? We know he stopped a lot of the time to help people, and often stayed for a long period of time. We know Goku walked the same as normal people because he walked with normal people to get to other places. So by them calculations, Earth would have to be vastly smaller.

I'm led to believe Toriyama said Earth was smaller. I'll see if I can find it.

That is, of course, assuming that the DBZ Earth has the same Land : Water ratio. Additionally, he acquires Nimbus at some point and has random intervals of traveling in vehicles and other things that would increase his travel speed, am I correct?

However, I refer to my original statement, , that map may show all the land mass in DBZ Earth, but it is a square map. They do not have a cylindrical planet, and none of the land masses wrap off of one end, and appear on the other. Therefore, it is safe to say there is probably a decent amount of water that could potentially extend in all directions in that map, which would help conclude that the Earth is closer to Pangaea sort of phase in it's development. Which would also help with travel time.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#37 Posted by GunGunW (996 posts) - - Show Bio

@Supreme Marvel: That isn't terrible logic at all... I've been meaning to say something about that as well. When they fly across "continents", they're extremely small and about the size of cities, when they throw enemies through "mountains" they're the size of large hills. Heck, even the planet Vegeta blew up in the filler was pretty small considering how big it was compared to his space ship.

#38 Posted by RidTom (214 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember an argument someone brought up about Goku being hurt by a rock or glass, However I always thought that the reason they have such high durability is because of a ki shield like Iron Fist

#39 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11264 posts) - - Show Bio

@RidTom said:

I remember an argument someone brought up about Goku being hurt by a rock or glass, However I always thought that the reason they have such high durability is because of a ki shield like Iron Fist

The rock thing was filler so not canon towards the manga. Th glass thing I believe was GT.

#40 Edited by uberhikari (2422 posts) - - Show Bio

There's so much nonsense in this thread...

@CadenceV2:

Honestly Power scaling as no place here. We cant use Arguments of "So and so has power level 100 billion and it takes only 500 to destroy a planet. He must be a Sky Father!"
That is just BS and unfounded.
What we can debate is actual feats from the Manga (byitself), Show (by itself), or the Manga and Show (Largely made exact to the Manga with added Filler).
These feat we seen or characters have said can be use as feats.
Example Batman says Wonder Woman is Combat Faster than Superman. Is this BS? Or Accurate Statement. Anybody on these threads take that as statement. When Piccolo says Goku move past the Light of a attack... is he BS or making a statement? What is the difference between the 2 really beside rabid fanboys on both sides?
Point is we have Feats to go by.

First, you obviously don't know very much about debate techniques here at ComicVine. Powerscaling is, and pretty much always has been, a legitimate tool to assess the capabilities of characters. Powerscaling works by comparing characters to each other. For example, Goku has never busted a planet but Frieza has, and since Goku beat Frieza we assume that he can also bust a planet. (In fact, if you couldn't use powerscaling then going by feats the only people in DBZ who would be planet busters are Frieza and Kid Buu.) This type of comparative assessment is actually based on a mathematical property known as transitivity; for example, Bill is taller than John, John is taller than Tim, therefore, Bill is taller than Tim.

Second, you can have DBZ battles based on the manga or based on the anime, but it's impossible to have a debate where you use both. Why? Because there are some inconsistencies between the manga and anime, for example, in the anime one of the Kais said that Kid Buu destroyed a galaxy but in the manga it was only said that Kid Buu destroyed a hundred or so planets. So, you can't use both the anime and the manga.

Third, character statements are not evidence; they never have been and they never will be. The mere fact that somebody states something to be true has no bearing on the veracity of the statement. Nobody cares about what Batman states about Wonder Woman's combat speed, what matters is Wonder Woman's actual in battle feats and what we can prove via powerscaling.

KI Power
Goku had higher Power Level than Kais Cricket friend. Yet the stupid Cricket was WAY Faster. Same as Captain Ginyu was uber higher in Power to Bertha but Bertha and Jess were the Fastest Members. Also Trunks and Vegeta both hit the Super Sayian 1 Buff Mark where they had more power but were slower to Cell.
So Power Level is not everything.
Its common knowledge DBZ is Near Light speed in Combat Speed. Travel speed is slower by showings. They use Ki for quick burst attacks. Its even stated many times a Spike in power when they go Near Lightspeed to FTL.
Piccolo wanted the Moon Gone. He put alot of Ki into the Speed and Power so Gohan stop trashing the place. Also you (and many others who dont seem to grasp unfolding battles in the show) Ki bleeding.

And here is where you and every DB/Z fan dig your own grave. Other people, as well as myself, have been making the argument for quite a while that power levels tell you nothing about the speed of a character because there's no evidence that base stats like strength, speed, etc. scale linearly with power levels. You've already stated as much here. Thus, all this nonsense about how X character has a bajillion power level is absolutely useless for determining what their actual speed is.

Second, it's not "common knowledge" that DBZ is near light speed, if it was you wouldn't have to post this thread because no one would be arguing about it.

Third, Piccolo's moon busting feat can't be used as a speed feat. Why? Because in order to calculate speed you need distance divided by time. Like I posted somewhere else, even if we know what the distance is between the Earth and the Moon we don't know how long it took Piccolo's blast to reach the moon, therefore, you can't calculate speed. Moreover, DBZ fans have a very inconsistent way of arguing. When they want to use the Piccolo moon busting feat as a speed feat they'll say things like, "Only .5 seconds elapsed in the anime, therefore, Piccolo's ki blast was FTL." But when you show them other examples from the anime where ki blasts seem to be going considerably less than FTL speeds with characters not being able to dodge them, they say things like, "The time in the anime is not actually representative of the speed of DBZ fights." You guys can't have it both ways. In any event, like I said before, the Piccolo moon busting feat is unquantifiable as a speed feat because no time is stated in panel.

@CadenceV2 said:

Showings of ki Speed

Outran and snatch Master Roshi Glasses from a Lightbase Solar Flare.

FTL to me.

Another Comment of Out moving Light which is the Speed of Light.... how interesting. Also shows a Lightspeed blast like attack via Frieza

Alot say this means nothing... well the time it take to say BE GONE the moon is vaporized. Thats near Lightspeed if not FTL and Moon Busting at the least.

Hell even the Anime of this feat base completly off the DBZ writer Manga (And overseen by said writer) has this clip.

Well thats like Flash speed there.

First, the scans you've posted are scanlations from an online manga site; they do not contain the official English translations of the manga, so there's no way to know exactly what they're saying.

Let's talk about the first scan that supposedly shows Goku moving at FTL speeds to evade Tien's Solar Flare. First, like I tried to explain to someone else in another thread, this was a gag feat. Unlike a lot of American super hero comic books, in manga, sometimes the mangaka will show the characters performing ridiculous feats for comedic effect. And this is evidenced by the fact that in the very next panel, Goku gets kicked in the face by Tien. If Goku really had FTL reaction/combat speed would Tien be able to kick him in the face? Are we now going to claim that Tien was FTL because he was able to kick Goku directly in the face without Goku being able to dodge? Moreover, there are other instances in DBZ when characters were hit by the Solar Flare attack: Goku used it on Vegeta in their first fight and Krillin used it on Dodoria in the Frieza Saga. So how do you explain kid Goku in Dragon Ball being able to dodge Tien's Solar Flare but characters who are certainly stronger and faster in DBZ not being able to react to it or dodge it? It doesn't make sense.

Now let's look at the next scan. The only thing this shows is Frieza firing a ki blast that hits Dende. Then you have a caption that says, "FTL to me." LOLOL! First, this feat isn't even quantifiable because we don't have either time or distance. Second, nobody cares if it "looks" FTL to you. That's not how arguments work, you can't say, "Well, this feat looks FTL to me, therefore, it is," you actually have to prove that it is. And this is the one thing that seems to be in short supply when it comes to DBZ fans.

Now let's look at the next scan. Like I stated previously, these scans are not the official English translations so we don't know what kind of attack Frieza used. Second, just because Piccolo says that it was a "paralyzing light" doesn't actually mean that the attack was a light based attack. Third, all Piccolo says is that Goku dodged it instantly but that doesn't count for much. The word "instant" has a range of definitions going from no time has elapsed to happening in a very short space of time. It could just as well be the case that Goku was so fast that Piccolo just couldn't keep up with his movement and so to him it was "instant," but this doesn't actually tell us how fast Goku was moving.

I've already dealt with the Piccolo moon busting feat above, so now let's deal with the last speed feat scan you have. This scan shows SSJ 1 Gotenks circling the Earth. And again, this is another unquantifiable speed feat. There's simply no way to know what distance Gotenks has traveled and in what time frame. We still see Gotenk's ki trail so presumably not a lot of time has elapsed, but there's simply no way to know. If you asked me to guess, I would say he's at least going at relativistic speeds but relativistic speeds are only 10% light speed. And no, this isn't Flash speed, this is Flash speed. At the beginning of JLA #89, the Flash transported 532,000 people 35 miles away from a nuclear bomb explosion in .00001 seconds.

Let's do some calculations. The Flash transported 532,000 people 35 miles away from the blast site. First, let's do some conversions to make this easier at the end. 35 miles = 56.327 kilometers. In order to get meters we multiply by 1,000 so: 56.327 x 1,000 = 56,327 meters. Assuming he carried 2 people at a time Flash had to make 266,000 round trips. In other words, Flash has to travel 56,327 meters twice because he has to transport 2 people 56,327 meters away and then come back to pick up 2 more people. In other words, Flash has to travel 112,654 meters 266,000 times! So, 112,654 x 266,000 = 29,965,964,000; that's approximately 30 billion meters. And he did this is in .00001 microseconds. 1 microsecond = .000001 seconds; and .00001 microseconds = .00000000001 seconds. Light travels 299,792,458 meters in one second. But we want to know how fast light travels in .00000000001, so we multiply 299,792,458 by .00000000001 and we get .00299792458. So, light travels .00299792458 meters in .00000000001 seconds, on the other hand, the Flash traveled 29,965,964,000 meters in .00000000001 seconds. So how many times faster than the speed of light was Flash? Well we divide 29,965,964,000 by .00299792458 and we get: 9,995,569,668,000. So, the Flash was approximately 10 trillion times the speed of light. This is why people laugh when DBZ fans say that Vegeta or Goku is faster than the Flash.

In conclusion, as it stands now DBZ has 0 in battle FTL reaction/combat speed feats. And let me make one thing perfectly clear: reaction speed and combat speed are not the same thing. If DBZ fans really want to show that DBZ characters have genuine top tier speed they need to post scans that show both reaction speed and combat speed. Of course people here are always open to evidence but as of yet no such evidence seems to exist or be forthcoming.

Edit: Somebody pointed out that Flash did this is .00001 microseconds rather than 1 microsecond and that's actually what the panel says. So, I fixed my calculations and...we get 10 trillion times the speed of light. However, my suspicion is that comic book writers can't do math so they probably meant 1 microsecond. So just divide by 100,000 and you get 1 hundred million times the speed of light. Either calculation is impressive so you choose which one you want to use.

#41 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23151 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: Nice post.

#42 Posted by Simon_the_digger (2836 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: Epic post.

Online
#43 Posted by TheMightyAvenger (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: I would like to point out that the scan states he did it in 0.00001 microseconds.

#44 Posted by uberhikari (2422 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheMightyAvenger said:

@uberhikari: I would like to point out that the scan states he did it in 0.00001 microseconds.

LOL! Yes, I noticed this. I was thinking about editing my post to point this out but the feat was already impressive the way it is. Plus, comic book writers can't do math so they couldn't have meant Flash did this in .00001 microseconds, right? But if they did, .00001 microseconds is 1 microsecond divided by 100,000. So, just multiply the final number by 100,000 and that places Flash around 10 trillion times the speed of light.

#45 Posted by TheMightyAvenger (1912 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: Yeah, that would be way to much, even for the Flash.

#46 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: Good Job if what you say about the Manga Translation is true. I actually only have every episode of DBZ on VHS still and watch them time to time. All manga scans I found in various threads and online forums. so if what you say about the Manga is its all complete Rubish as it was never translated in English then Great.

As for the FTL speed feats of the Anime is ALOT Harder to disapprove ;)

As for Power scaling its a pii$$ Poor Argument that has no place in Battle Forums as yourself and no one else can prove in actual Feats what they can do at that Power Level. You Prove to me right now if the Power Scaling of Goku at a Billion Ki Level is a Galxy buster. You cant becuase Goku has never shown that power in feats.

Welcome to the vine BTW and good to know about the Manga Sources.

Did you know the Manga was rubbish in English?

#47 Posted by RedLanternSuperman (348 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: God Bless you Cadence

#48 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

About out-moving the blast, which assumes to be light-speed:

Isn't that a street-leveler's feat? Regular guys dodged lasers in comics all the time.

#49 Edited by SlimJ87D (9319 posts) - - Show Bio
@CadenceV2: Not sure if this helps, but it's from the DBZ Encyclopedia.  
 
 
 
The word and device Killi translates as followed 
   
Kiri Kili: An energy unit used by Bobbidi. When Bobbidi measured Gokuu's energy during his fight with Yakon, this unit was used. [Par.] Gokuu's energy level is over 3,000 kili. At approximately 200-300 kili, one can destroy 1 or 2 planets. 
 
from http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball/daizenshuu/07/07-046.html 
 
Goku was also ONLY measured in his Super Saiyan form in my memory. Not SS2 or SS3
#50 Posted by nickzambuto (12856 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

Did you know the Manga was rubbish in English?

Meh.