" @texasdeathmatch: He took most of the HoF inductees, and most of the potential inductees. Better quality debates over there, honestly. "
Its just so hard to follow, and I HATE personal signatures. Its gets really annoying to see the same "hilarious" image over and over again. I just hope katz never reads this, he will kill me. "
You know, you can disable those signatures :P I'm not particularly forum savvy, but I picked it up quickly. But some things are coming up that will make things user friendly.
" @texasdeathmatch: CV definitely has the pretty thing going for it. "
Extremely accessible. Unfortunately that means 12 year olds can also easily hop on as well... "
I still maintain that we need to add something about reading comprehension into the terms and agreements that allow the mods the power to ban anybody who shows consistently that they are not able to actually formulate real thoughts.
I'll start by saying your breakdown of their first encounter is completely accurate, except I do take exception with your use of the term, "tests." As in Deathstroke next "tests" her by pulling out a pistol, and "tests" her nerve. Maybe I'm reading into this the wrong way but when you say Stroke is testing her it comes across like he was holding back or wasn't trying to take her out. The fact is he was trying to put her down rather then having to abandoned his apartment (where the fight was taking place) because initially it seemed like an easier more intelligent option then burning the place down. So he starts off trying to use his hand to hand skills (because gunfire would attract attention and force him to relocate. Thats speculation on my part there). After several badly missed strikes he then whips out the gun and open fires. Not in an attempt to gauge or test her skill, but because he's not f'n around with her martial arts superiority anymore. After she disarms him and he realizes there's simply nothing he can do, he blows up the apartment. Again, not to test her resolve or will, but to destroy all traces that he had been there staking out the police station and any evidence of his involvement in the plot to assassinate Amy. However Cass managed to accomplish all of this while holding onto a computer disk revealing Slade's intended target, Amy (former something or other to Dick Grayson).
We both agree that Round 1 is Advantage Batgirl, we just came to the conclusion on different paths. "
I do not think he was holding back per se, but rather the fact that he thought of her as just one more of Batman's proteges made him underestimate her, and the result of said underestimation was not to fight as well as he possibly could. Not saying he was not trying to take her out by any means, but the way the fight progresses, and Slade's remark after she kicks the gun off his hand (maybe I'm reading too much into that, as well), implied that it's the exact point he realises just how good his opponent truly is, and decides to simply blow the whole thing up instead of contuinuing the fight against an opponent of that caliber. I simply gathered that until that point he was gradually stepping up the game (first hand to hand, then equipment), his intent twofold: if the bullets had blown her brains out, good. Mission accomplished, obstacle removed. If she dodged from that range, a further conclusion about her abilities would be drawn. Now, not only did she dodge, but she immediately managed to disarm him.
Maybe the reason I view it that way is because Deathstroke is, all in all, a very smug character. He has great faith to his own abilities, and on several occasions he has intentionally allowed others to hit him/seemingly get the upper hand merely to gauge their level of skill, before hitting back, hard. That was my original impression of the scene. But it is merely my own interpretation and I concede your exaplanation holds up very well on its own and is just as, if not more so, likely. Concerning the grenade, there is something very deliberate in Deathstroke's stance while he holds it. He doesn't decide to use the grenade to test Cassie, no. But his smile, and the way he casually holds it despite it being about to blow up at any second while Batgirl looks in astonishment seems to me like his way of saying "You dodged punches. You dodged kicks. Hell, you even dodged bullets. Let's see you dodge this". That's why I said he seems to be testing her resolve, if you will. The employment of the grenade was indeed a tactical manoeuvre on his part, but he still seemed to be having fun seeing how Batgirl would react to it, and how soon she would back down.
I'm going to jump ahead her a bit as you have already laid out the plot and monologues. Although Cass states Stroke is smarter, faster, stronger, then she is, these aren't things that should surprise people/fans. He is stronger. He is smarter. But Faster? Does she mean running? In the context of the scene could she be talking about foot speed? As in her being able to chase him down or keep out in front when he was chasing her? Or does she mean Combat Speed and Reflexes? Cause in their showings together he's never really demonstrated being faster then she is in terms of reflexes reaction.
I think this is a point where we cannot be certain, one way, or the other. Batgirl makes no distinction on what exactly she means, so this could very well end up being a speculative section on our part. I'll still give it a go for the sake of the discussion.
Now, presuming Cassie's experience with Slade is merely from the fights they had until that point, she very well may be referring to sheer speed, not reflexes (the second fight doesn't have any real h2h, there's always a weapon involved, one way, or the other), even though Deathstroke does dodge Cassandra's hit while in the building with an acrobatic move, so she may have gathered a thing or two by that (it's the point she says his body moves like a choir). Still not much for her to be certain on how fast he is, and that is after all, her opinion after a rather short experience against Deathstroke, but nothing to conclude he truly is faster than her, at least in reactionary speed.
On the other hand, if we assume that Cassandra, like almost everyone, has actually heard of Deathstroke before, his accomplishments and accolades, as well as reading Batman's files on him, (not even sure if they exist, just going with the paranoia Bruce usually brings to the table), or just through exchanging notes with other members of the bat family, she could have known just how good Deathstroke is. Not first hand experience by any means, but she could have already painted a picture in her mind which prompted her to conclude he was holding back. Let's forget about the speed remark for a while. How did she realise he's stronger? She is by no means a slouch in that department herself, and Deathstroke hadn't even punched her once until that point for her to tell. Smarter? Still too small a sample from their encounters for her to say that about him, too. It would seem Slade's reputation preceded him.
All in all, that is not to say Batgirl definitely thought Deathstroke being faster than her meant both in running, as well reflexes, but if she had an idea of his abilities before hand, it is possible she was referring to a little bit of both. That's just my thoughts about it, no way to substantiate much from the previous paragraph.
"Deathstroke doesn't move, he could make things really....Hard."
You think? She's fighting Ravager, and she believes if Deathstroke gets involved it could make things, hard? Two panels ago she was saying he was stronger faster smarter, yet all that and his daughter (in her mind) is only enough to make the fight, hard...
I interpret it somewhat differently. Seeing that she says so exactly after she has one-upped Rose, who is dazzed/temporarily incapacitated by her hit, I don't believe she is referring to her fighting both of them at the same time as being really hard, but rather Deathstroke making things really hard by himself in case he decided to take initiative against her. I don't focus as much to Batgirl's expression but rather the word "He". "He could make things really hard. He doesn't". It''s he, Deathstroke, that makes the difference.
Secondly, we saw Cassie having trouble with Deathstroke while, to her admittance, he was not going all out. She also did have moderate difficulty against Rose -- it wasn't a cakewalk fight for either party, with Cassie clearly being superior, though. If she was indeed referring to fighting both of them at the same time as being "really...hard" that seems like a more light way to express herself on the spur of the moment, hence her somewhat hesitant way of concluding the phrase. A euphemism instead of saying "I'm ####ed".
And the second references pertains to her reading Stroke's body language. She just got done saying he didnt move, yet she then goes on to say "His body is conflicted. He wants to hurt me for hurting you."
This to me signifies that there are in fact times in which Cass can, and has, read Deathstroke's body language.
I agree to that. But Cassandra's abilities being as good as they are, even by watching his stance despite the fact that he doesn't move (and exactly because of it), make the feat feasible, the way Deathstroke was very difficult to read while in motion, earlier on. Long story short, I believe she can read him in general if he is immobile, but not while in the midst of combat "with all the voices singing at once". Also, there is this ability Slade has, that could justify Cassandra's inability to read him, much like Rose can't:
Seeing his daughter hurt, it's very likely Deathstroke lost his self-control - if only for a moment, enabling Cassie to read him.
Moving ahead a bit,in the end, she ends up outsmarting him (even if it is through Rose). She sees a weakness in Stroke for his daughter which is later exploited. Ravager's need for her father to accept her causes her to drop her guard which results in Cassandra slitting her throat, which in turn shatters Stroke's would be apprentice, the job (that he earlier stated can never be abandoned until death or completion), and all of his planning. So in-spite of the dialog the end result seems more like a Round 2: Advantage Batgirl as Slade is last seen running off with Ravager in his arms and never appears again in the series.
I agree to the fact that it's advantage: Batgirl as the end result of the whole plot Deathstroke machinated, but, as you said, there were other factors to that. I intended it to be an examination of the straightforward encounters between the two, without additional factors, hence why I only posted scans from the occasions where they battle each other and no other things aside from their personal skills, abilities, and yes, even emotions about one another, come into play. I granted Deathstroke advantage due to the fact that they were seemingly evenly matched in the course of a battle where Cassandra believes he is holding back, as well as all the additional things she thinks about him, much like I granted Cassie the edge in round 5, despite the fact that they only land one hit at one another - yet Deathstroke flat out admits he needs to mess her up emotionally to defeat her.
Co-Signed. One could make the argument that Slade's intelligence before these issues (the manipulation, the poison, etc) point out what Cassandra stated earlier. That he is in fact smarter then she is and there for the advantage here should go to him. Its the beginning of the "I cant physically take her out, but I've diagnosed her weakness, and its her mind." Also in this arc Cass appears to get out-muscled and on the losing end of Ravager. Possible writer revenge for the way she was portrayed in the Batgirl series?
I have an issue with Deathstroke believing she couldn't take her out physically, since, chronologically, it is the statement that comes last. If he indeed believed he couldn't defeat Cassandra, trying to present her as an ultimate test for Rose would be illogical for him, since he is clearly better than his daughter, in every way. Seeing that the plot to poison her from a distance originated after their first two fights, and Deathstroke wasn't at all badly outmatched in their first straight fight where he actually had knowledge of Cassie, him thinking he had to snipe her to beat her (not talking about sheer skill, since I consider Batgirl superior in that aspect, but his weaponry, his strategic mind and his physical attributes definitely give him a chance, and he'd know it) it seems strange he could come to that conclusion.
As for the writing, I'll step outside attempting to justify things within continuity for a while, and say that it's what it boils down to.
David Grayson (writer of the first encounter between Cassie and Slade) had Nightwing pull of a performance that was nigh identical to Cassie's against Deathstroke, during Renegade (Nightwing # 117), down to the point where Nightwing kicks Deathstroke's gun from his hand and - surprise, surprise - Deathstroke actually decides to blow up the whole building to wrap things up. His Deathstroke is a tank: strong, powerful, but not agile, while his protagonists can run circles around him all the way.
Andersen Gabrych wrote the balanced encounter during Batgirl v1 which I felt gave both characters good credit.
Geoff Johns was behind the Titans East storyline, in which Deathstroke was actually more than holding his own against multiple characters, so it's difficult to think he doesnt consider him above her.
And finally we have Adam Beechen, writer of Batgirl v2, who introduced the notion that Slade needs to get in Cassie's head to beat her (citing Rose as a similar example, despite that fact that Deathstroke has proven he doesn't actually need to do that to defeat Rose). Now, you know a lot more about David Cain (I intend to rectify that, the character is of interest to me), but my general impression is that Shiva and Batgirl are at about the same level, yet both are above Cain. In Batgirl v2, David Cain was mentioned as having fought Deathstroke to a virtual standstill, to the point they were so evenly matched they decided to stop because they would still be fighting otherwise (exaggeration, but it drives the point home that they were supposed to be dead even). As a result, Deathstroke being inferior to Cassie in that series doesn't come as a surprise to me, much like Deathstroke being presented as superior in Teen Titans doesn't surprise me, either.
A very nice breakdown overall Morph. For me there does seem to be a pattern here for both characters which is, Stroke cant beat Cass in straight up hand to hand combat, and with his healing factor/durability it would be hard to make a compelling case for her beating him. There are two examples out of the 5 mentioned battles in which Slade would rather blow up the area then continue to fight Cass which to me says something and backs up his final statement there. There are some other interesting dialog notes in various comics made about Cass in reference to her skill compared to Stroke (and one about batman just for kicks lol)
Likewise, man. I concur Batgirl is more skilled than Deathstroke (the comment about Deathstroke knowing he can't take her h2h comes rom Batgirl v2, which I agree showed her as superior), but despite being very skilled, Slade isn't at the top of the chain, and I think Batgrl is (not counting Karate Kid or similarly insane stuff). But his level of skill in combination to his enhancements is what makes him truly lethal. Your explanation holds up very well within context, but I think the fact that so many different writers, all of which had entirely different views on who these characters are and what level they truly operate at, results in us thinking things over, as much as we do. I'm all for another fight to end all fights, but you'll be lucky if it's not by Johns or Brad Meltzer because apparently Slade is God with them, LOL.
You know what I'd want, though? Deathstroke meeting Shiva. It's pretty astonishing they haven't even met yet, let alone fought. The dynamic between them would be interesting to see.
@Morpheus_: Devin grayson is a chick,and she wrote slade beating dick 3 times in the same arc.and i'd rather go on a deadshot quest than a david cain quest.
" @Morpheus_: Devin grayson is a chick,and she wrote slade beating dick 3 times in the same arc.and i'd rather go on a deadshot quest than a david cain quest. "
Interesting. I never would have guessed it was the same writer, seeing that Deathstroke beat Dick three times in the same issue, not just in the same arc. Not much hope left if writers contradict their own writing in that manner. Excuses to ms. Grayson for calling her a "he" though.
Eh, Cain will be a lot easier, but I have read much of Deadshot already. I still need to muster the patience to read his two minis.
@Morpheus_: My man Morph throwing down some excellence lol. I've got most of my response written up and will post it when I get home this afternoon. Pretty much agree with everything, but I like this discussion to much not to piggyback on it a little more
(if you need any direction on where to start with David Cain let me know)
" @Morpheus_: My man Morph throwing down some excellence lol. I've got most of my response written up and will post it when I get home this afternoon. Pretty much agree with everything, but I like this discussion to much not to piggyback on it a little more (if you need any direction on where to start with David Cain let me know) "
I just took a look at your profile and the pics you uploaded, I begin to fear you'll come up with a panel after panel analysis of the first fight to shut me down, LOL.
Love the discussion, as well. Take your time.
I've taken an interest on many DC martial artists recently. Aside from Slade, I did an in-depth search on Bronze Tiger, and characters like David Cain, Connor Hawke, and yes, Lady Shiva (:P) wil likely be next, so count on it.
edit: I forgot that I'm also interested in Richard Dragon, I read his volume 2 and it was pretty intense.
" I do not think he was holding back per se, but rather the fact that he thought of her as just one more of Batman's proteges made him underestimate her, and the result of said underestimation was not to fight as well as he possibly could. Not saying he was not trying to take her out by any means, but the way the fight progresses, and Slade's remark after she kicks the gun off his hand (maybe I'm reading too much into that, as well), implied that it's the exact point he realises just how good his opponent truly is, and decides to simply blow the whole thing up instead of contuinuing the fight against an opponent of that caliber. I simply gathered that until that point he was gradually stepping up the game (first hand to hand, then equipment), his intent twofold: if the bullets had blown her brains out, good. Mission accomplished, obstacle removed. If she dodged from that range, a further conclusion about her abilities would be drawn. Now, not only did she dodge, but she immediately managed to disarm him.
Maybe the reason I view it that way is because Deathstroke is, all in all, a very smug character. He has great faith to his own abilities, and on several occasions he has intentionally allowed others to hit him/seemingly get the upper hand merely to gauge their level of skill, before hitting back, hard. That was my original impression of the scene. But it is merely my own interpretation and I concede your exaplanation holds up very well on its own and is just as, if not more so, likely."
This is a very reasonable assumption/logical conclusion and there's really no proof that would allow me to pinpoint when, where, or even if, he underestimated her after the comment (but I'll try anyway :P). I think initially you're right on point, the comment about being another Batman protegee is an obvious slam/disregarding comment. But almost instantly she says not exactly and actually kick starts the fight (no typical Batman dialog about surrendering or hesitating). She jumps right in with a stylish kick (this is just my interpretation) that although is blocked, the artistic expression on Slade's face looks like one in which he's thinking, "She's for real." The smugness (visually anyway) appears to have faded out.
It is, however, like you said, possible that Slade was simply going through a progression of Hand to Hand, weapons, and then decided it wasn't worth the risk to continue. Not because he couldn't defeat her eventually but because the job had nothing to do with fighting her and Slade is all about the job while minimizing unnecessary conflict.
@Morpheus_
said:
" Concerning the grenade, there is something very deliberate in Deathstroke's stance while he holds it. He doesn't decide to use the grenade to test Cassie, no. But his smile, and the way he casually holds it despite it being about to blow up at any second while Batgirl looks in astonishment seems to me like his way of saying "You dodged punches. You dodged kicks. Hell, you even dodged bullets. Let's see you dodge this". That's why I said he seems to be testing her resolve, if you will. The employment of the grenade was indeed a tactical manoeuvre on his part, but he still seemed to be having fun seeing how Batgirl would react to it, and how soon she would back down."
While I admit Slade is confident at this point, I also think its somewhat of a false bravado after having been shown up. One could even argue that because the fight wasn't primary for either character (Cass was there for the disk/evidence and Slade was there for the job/staking out the police station) the grenade scene was a way of Slade silently asking Cass "How bad do you wanna take me down kid? How bad do you want it? Are you willing to die for it?" Like he already knows he cant beat her hand to hand so he's going to salvage his bruised ego by engaging her in a life or death game of chicken, and she blinks first. There's also the way in which the reader interprets the facial expressions of Slade. After pulling the grenade he has an obvious smile, there's no denying it. But Cass never moves, she doesnt switch her stance, she just remains there. I think Slade starts to get nervous and thats when you says, "You should run now." But she doesnt take off right away, the panel instead shows Slade's face again, and to me, I think it looks like he's got that, "Why is she still standing there" look. Like maybe she's going to call his bluff.
Big smile for Stroke
Is he smiling, smirking, or starting to second guess what she'll do? The furrowed brow is suspect.
At this point though I'm simply asking questions for the sake of the discussion. I actually love the way both characters are portrayed in this encounter. Deathstroke especially. He couldn't hit her, couldn't shoot her, and you just know Cass is thinking pretty highly of herself, and then he pulls out the grenade showing her he doesn't need to physically beat her to beat her.
@Morpheus_
said:
" How did she realise he's stronger? She is by no means a slouch in that department herself, and Deathstroke hadn't even punched her once until that point for her to tell. Smarter? Still too small a sample from their encounters for her to say that about him, too. It would seem Slade's reputation preceded him."
(Jumping ahead a bit simply because I think we've touched on all the talking points pertaining to the speed statement) The only thing I can think of to go along with Stroke's reputation apparently proceeding him is the fact that she may have been able to gauge his strength from their first encounter. Its true that he didnt land any shots, but she did block a couple and its possible she was able to determine some measure of his strength from that. I think you're probably spot on about the files and pre-knowledge of Stroke through Batman's comprehensive files on...everything lol.
@Morpheus_
said:
" I interpret it somewhat differently. Seeing that she says so exactly after she has one-upped Rose, who is dazzed/temporarily incapacitated by her hit, I don't believe she is referring to her fighting both of them at the same time as being really hard, but rather Deathstroke making things really hard by himself in case he decided to take initiative against her. I don't focus as much to Batgirl's expression but rather the word "He". "He could make things really hard. He doesn't". It''s he, Deathstroke, that makes the difference."
What my point is/was wasnt about her referring to the fight (as it had happened up until then being hard or having fought off both characters in alternation) but the fact that she is saying as of right now, at that moment, while she is fighting (despite having put her on her knees) Rose if Deathstroke decided to jump in(again) it could make things hard. She's basically saying/thinking to herself that if Stroke came back into the fight it would make things hard. I'm focusing on that term because one would think the dialog would read more like, "He could make things impossible." For there is no way she could have handled both characters at once, but the writer scripts her dialog in a way that seems to insinuate she could.
@Morpheus_
said:
"
I agree to that. But Cassandra's abilities being as good as they are, even by watching his stance despite the fact that he doesn't move (and exactly because of it), make the feat feasible, the way Deathstroke was very difficult to read while in motion, earlier on. Long story short, I believe she can read him in general if he is immobile, but not while in the midst of combat "with all the voices singing at once". Also, there is this ability Slade has, that could justify Cassandra's inability to read him, much like Rose can't:
Seeing his daughter hurt, it's very likely Deathstroke lost his self-control - if only for a moment, enabling Cassie to read him. "
(I luv this scan). But its somewhat misleading. Slade may in fact be able to control every molecule in his body, but he seems incapable of doing so when his family is involved. As seen in Blackest Night Teen Titans #78 when we actually get to see an inside glimpse of Deathstroke's emotional state through various situations. Displaying Will, but Rage is taking over Love Rage
Its possible that his statement(s) to Rose are more focused to disrupt her already fragile confidence then they are routed in fact. Especially since his own admission suggests that like Cass, Rose can only be defeated by mind manipulation or from a distance, which contradicts his statement above. The truth probably falls somewhere in-between. Rose's abilities on the surface seem to mirror Cass' but they are in fact on different levels, especially in terms of control and the way they work. Although Deathstroke is a tactical genius, I do not believe he's an expert on how Rose's abilities work, its most likely an educated guess. What he's explaining doesn't seem to do her precog justice cause she doesn't just read body language/muscle twitches, she gets glimpses of the future. Stroke is a mastermind at using his words as weapons by telling half truths mixed with distorted facts to through his opponent off their game. This could be one of those times. Cause later on when Rose attacks him in Blackest Night TT #77, she tags him a couple times convincingly. And admittedly he wasn't trying to kill her and didnt want to fight, but that should only mean his offensive was scaled back, not his ability to avoid getting hit.
I'm not dismissing the instance by any means. Just offering an alternative point of view. Ravager's control and Cass' control are on different levels. Ravager was born with the ability but didnt have anyone training her how to use it (until later on). Cass' ability was taught from birth in a completely isolated and controlled environment. We've seen Rose struggle with her control where as Cass has complete control. So much so she's been stated as being able to know what a person is thinking or what they'll do before they do it. There's reading body language and then there's Cass' Reading Body Language. But ultimately I agree that when Stroke strings his attacks together properly, its most likely Cass is unable to read him properly. I still believe no matter what there's some degree of movement read which still allows her to avoid him (as seen in most if not all of their fights).
The first comprehensive explanation of where Cass' powers come from
"I begin to see, she's not like me"
@Morpheus_
said:
" I agree to the fact that it's advantage: Batgirl as the end result of the whole plot Deathstroke machinated, but, as you said, there were other factors to that. I intended it to be an examination of the straightforward encounters between the two, without additional factors, hence why I only posted scans from the occasions where they battle each other and no other things aside from their personal skills, abilities, and yes, even emotions about one another, come into play. I granted Deathstroke advantage due to the fact that they were seemingly evenly matched in the course of a battle where Cassandra believes he is holding back, as well as all the additional things she thinks about him, much like I granted Cassie the edge in round 5, despite the fact that they only land one hit at one another - yet Deathstroke flat out admits he needs to mess her up emotionally to defeat her."
There are alot of ways I think that fight could be interrupted. Batgirl's inner monologue makes it difficult to argue against Stroke here, but I will say that although he's leading her to Rose, there are a few times in which she apparently reads him in order to avoid/counter his attacks. One instance in particular seemingly gives a visual glimpse of Cass actually catching Stroke off guard despite him dictating the battle. It appears as if this move is visually depicting Stroke being taken by surprise. But it could simply be part of his theatrics in toying with Cass (but I dont think it is) I underlined the last sentence because in the scan you posted in which Slade says Rose cant read him and there for will never defeat him is in stark contrast to his underlined statement about Cass, which was also about Rose. Here he pretty much confirms that in order to beat Rose he needs to get in her head. Which I believe is what he was doing when stating she couldnt read him in the scan(s) above.
@Morpheus_
said:
" I have an issue with Deathstroke believing she couldn't take her out physically, since, chronologically, it is the statement that comes last. If he indeed believed he couldn't defeat Cassandra, trying to present her as an ultimate test for Rose would be illogical for him, since he is clearly better than his daughter, in every way. Seeing that the plot to poison her from a distance originated after their first two fights, and Deathstroke wasn't at all badly outmatched in their first straight fight where he actually had knowledge of Cassie, him thinking he had to snipe her to beat her (not talking about sheer skill, since I consider Batgirl superior in that aspect, but his weaponry, his strategic mind and his physical attributes definitely give him a chance, and he'd know it) it seems strange he could come to that conclusion. As for the writing, I'll step outside attempting to justify things within continuity for a while, and say that it's what it boils down to."
At the time its possible he either: A, Overestimated Rose's ability. Or B: Once again Underestimated Cass. I think since the statement does come in their last known confrontation it makes more sense then had it come earlier in their carriers. He's had time to study her up close and personal, and since out of five or so encounters has never handled her physically, the writers can openly admit that he cant. The plot to poison her from a distance may have simply had more to do with him seeing it as an easier option then trying to beat her down first. It didn't necessarily mean at the time he didn't think he could, but didn't want to risk injuring her in the process. After all, he didn't poison her to defeat her per say but to get her on his team. Same could apply for the sniper incident. It was simply an easier/less risky maneuver then engaging her in open combat. Its actually a testament to Slade's ability/portrayal of weighing Risk vs Reward attitude I think.
@Morpheus_
said:
" David Grayson (writer of the first encounter between Cassie and Slade) had Nightwing pull of a performance that was nigh identical to Cassie's against Deathstroke, during Renegade (Nightwing # 117), down to the point where Nightwing kicks Deathstroke's gun from his hand and - surprise, surprise - Deathstroke actually decides to blow up the whole building to wrap things up. His Deathstroke is a tank: strong, powerful, but not agile, while his protagonists can run circles around him all the way. "
This is true, but he also had Stroke kicking the ish outta Nightwing for several issues leading up to #117. Including a beatdown in #82 in which Dick doesn't land a shot and ends up paying Slade to leave. They had to throw Nightwing a bone eventually lol.
@Morpheus_
said:
" Andersen Gabrych wrote the balanced encounter during Batgirl v1 which I felt gave both characters good credit.
Geoff Johns was behind the Titans East storyline, in which Deathstroke was actually more than holding his own against multiple characters, so it's difficult to think he doesnt consider him above her. "
Andersen gave a very accurate portrayal of both characters while also managing to give the fans an exciting confrontation.
Geoff though raped Batgirl the entire Titans East arc and is an admitted Cass hater.
@Morpheus_
said:
" And finally we have Adam Beechen, writer of Batgirl v2, who introduced the notion that Slade needs to get in Cassie's head to beat her (citing Rose as a similar example, despite that fact that Deathstroke has proven he doesn't actually need to do that to defeat Rose). Now, you know a lot more about David Cain (I intend to rectify that, the character is of interest to me), but my general impression is that Shiva and Batgirl are at about the same level, yet both are above Cain. In Batgirl v2, David Cain was mentioned as having fought Deathstroke to a virtual standstill, to the point they were so evenly matched they decided to stop because they would still be fighting otherwise (exaggeration, but it drives the point home that they were supposed to be dead even). As a result, Deathstroke being inferior to Cassie in that series doesn't come as a surprise to me, much like Deathstroke being presented as superior in Teen Titans doesn't surprise me, either. "
David Cain is a tool utilized by the DCU to elevate the fighting credibility of another character. Whats written on panel about him far exceeds any actual showings he has (minus a couple). But given all that is accredited to him over the years, in his prime, hanging with Stroke isnt a stretch. But you're right, the title of the showings weigh heavily here. In fact I've come to the conclusion that Cass' feats outside her own series (both of them) put her down below Batman level. In her own titles she gives Deathstroke fits, knocks out meta-humans with ease, takes down multiple opponents, as well as copying the moves of characters she thinks have excellent technique. In fact in her series she pretty much has photographic reflexes. Outside her comic however, Dick can hang with her, Green Arrow one ups her, Tim dodges her attack and gives her a nice little verbal dismissal, Supergirl kills her with an ability nobody knew she had...I mean its a scary look at two different looks at one character. Ying and Yang.
@Morpheus_
said:
" Likewise, man. I concur Batgirl is more skilled than Deathstroke (the comment about Deathstroke knowing he can't take her h2h comes rom Batgirl v2, which I agree showed her as superior), but despite being very skilled, Slade isn't at the top of the chain, and I think Batgrl is (not counting Karate Kid or similarly insane stuff). But his level of skill in combination to his enhancements is what makes him truly lethal. Your explanation holds up very well within context, but I think the fact that so many different writers, all of which had entirely different views on who these characters are and what level they truly operate at, results in us thinking things over, as much as we do. I'm all for another fight to end all fights, but you'll be lucky if it's not by Johns or Brad Meltzer because apparently Slade is God with them, LOL. You know what I'd want, though? Deathstroke meeting Shiva. It's pretty astonishing they haven't even met yet, let alone fought. The dynamic between them would be interesting to see. "
" This is a very reasonable assumption/logical conclusion and there's really no proof that would allow me to pinpoint when, where, or even if, he underestimated her after the comment (but I'll try anyway :P). I think initially you're right on point, the comment about being another Batman protegee is an obvious slam/disregarding comment. But almost instantly she says not exactly and actually kick starts the fight (no typical Batman dialog about surrendering or hesitating). She jumps right in with a stylish kick (this is just my interpretation) that although is blocked, the artistic expression on Slade's face looks like one in which he's thinking, "She's for real." The smugness (visually anyway) appears to have faded out.
It is, however, like you said, possible that Slade was simply going through a progression of Hand to Hand, weapons, and then decided it wasn't worth the risk to continue. Not because he couldn't defeat her eventually but because the job had nothing to do with fighting her and Slade is all about the job while minimizing unnecessary conflict. "
That's definitely a surprised facial expression from Deathstroke right there, but I think it is Cassie's swiftness both in movement and in reaction to his verbal challenge that originated it. After all, it was extremely early, and while master martial artists can sniff each other out nearly from the go, a single kick is unlikely to have caused such a reaction from a man who has, to his own admission, fought alongside, and against the best (not saying he has literally done so, but rather I'm using Deathstroke's words from his own series, IIRC it's after his fight with Batman in Deathstroke # 7, and the statement itself was in Deathstroke # 8). All in all, much like many other instances, it really is up to the reader to decide, and the room for multiple interpretations is surely there.
While I admit Slade is confident at this point, I also think its somewhat of a false bravado after having been shown up. One could even argue that because the fight wasn't primary for either character (Cass was there for the disk/evidence and Slade was there for the job/staking out the police station) the grenade scene was a way of Slade silently asking Cass "How bad do you wanna take me down kid? How bad do you want it? Are you willing to die for it?" Like he already knows he cant beat her hand to hand so he's going to salvage his bruised ego by engaging her in a life or death game of chicken, and she blinks first. There's also the way in which the reader interprets the facial expressions of Slade. After pulling the grenade he has an obvious smile, there's no denying it. But Cass never moves, she doesnt switch her stance, she just remains there. I think Slade starts to get nervous and thats when you says, "You should run now." But she doesnt take off right away, the panel instead shows Slade's face again, and to me, I think it looks like he's got that, "Why is she still standing there" look. Like maybe she's going to call his bluff.
I don't believe it's necessarily false bravado since he really is willing to go through the ordeal (he has survived worse than a grenade), but I agree his pride was wounded at that point. He initially dismissed Cassandra as a cheap Batman knock off, only to find his offense countered every step of the way, so I agree he wanted to have the last laugh with that move.
While Cassie's stance truly is unchanged, I think her facial expression gives away her surprise when Deathstroke takes the fuse off. Her eyes seemingly widden, her mouth slightly open beneath her mask. A "WTF, is the man deranged?", if you pardon the expression.
Is he smiling, smirking, or starting to second guess what she'll do? The furrowed brow is suspect.
At this point though I'm simply asking questions for the sake of the discussion. I actually love the way both characters are portrayed in this encounter. Deathstroke especially. He couldn't hit her, couldn't shoot her, and you just know Cass is thinking pretty highly of herself, and then he pulls out the grenade showing her he doesn't need to physically beat her to beat her.
I want to go with him smirking, since it's kind of his payback. Because at that point, he knows Cassandra will have to back down or it's curtains for her. One way or the other, he "wins". Maybe he silently applauds the fact that she didn't run right away, while still being sure of himself. It's difficult to tell with Deathstroke when he is unmasked, or even when he is actually talking, let alone by an expression in a single panel, so we agree here.
(Jumping ahead a bit simply because I think we've touched on all the talking points pertaining to the speed statement) The only thing I can think of to go along with Stroke's reputation apparently proceeding him is the fact that she may have been able to gauge his strength from their first encounter. Its true that he didnt land any shots, but she did block a couple and its possible she was able to determine some measure of his strength from that. I think you're probably spot on about the files and pre-knowledge of Stroke through Batman's comprehensive files on...everything lol.
It could be that her experience with him prompted her to research him. They certainly left a lasting impression upon one another during their first round.
Yeah, Bruce created Brother Eye, he is bound to have files on someone as powerful and dangerous as Deathstroke. Especially since they have fought each other four times.
What my point is/was wasnt about her referring to the fight (as it had happened up until then being hard or having fought off both characters in alternation) but the fact that she is saying as of right now, at that moment, while she is fighting (despite having put her on her knees) Rose if Deathstroke decided to jump in(again) it could make things hard. She's basically saying/thinking to herself that if Stroke came back into the fight it would make things hard. I'm focusing on that term because one would think the dialog would read more like, "He could make things impossible." For there is no way she could have handled both characters at once, but the writer scripts her dialog in a way that seems to insinuate she could.
I understand your point, I just read that specific part differently, as her thinking Deathstroke himself would be the obstacle to make things "really hard" if he decided to intervene, without adding Rose into the mix in that line of thought, at all.
(I luv this scan). But its somewhat misleading. Slade may in fact be able to control every molecule in his body, but he seems incapable of doing so when his family is involved. As seen in Blackest Night Teen Titans #78 when we actually get to see an inside glimpse of Deathstroke's emotional state through various situations.
I agree. But, trying to sew things together into one cohesive whole, I used the scan concerning that particular ability to justify how he could conceivably render himself unreadable to Cassie (despite the statement chronologically coming years after their fight in Batgirl # 63), an opponent for whom he had no feelings for, one way, or the other, at least at that point. Later on, he does become emotionally involved when Cassie slams Rose's head onto a wall, or when she cuts her throat, sure.
Its possible that his statement(s) to Rose are more focused to disrupt her already fragile confidence then they are routed in fact. Especially since his own admission suggests that like Cass, Rose can only be defeated by mind manipulation or from a distance, which contradicts his statement above.
It's possible, but since Slade and Rose are family, emotional baggage is bound to be involved in their fights, whether they want to, or not. That encounter began with Rose effectively sucker punching Slade by trying to strangle him while he was in a wheelchair (admittedly healed, though), and the fight resulted in him toying/beating her up without real difficulty. Also, the instance where he says "You'll never be able to read me, Rose. That's why you can't beat me" is heavily supported by the fact that, despite her abilities, she never saw this coming:
Gallery
That's more than gloating/psyching her out. It's supported by something that transpires immediately prior to his phrase, when Rose had every possible advantage.
The truth probably falls somewhere in-between. Rose's abilities on the surface seem to mirror Cass' but they are in fact on different levels, especially in terms of control and the way they work. Although Deathstroke is a tactical genius, I do not believe he's an expert on how Rose's abilities work, its most likely an educated guess. What he's explaining doesn't seem to do her precog justice cause she doesn't just read body language/muscle twitches, she gets glimpses of the future. Stroke is a mastermind at using his words as weapons by telling half truths mixed with distorted facts to through his opponent off their game. This could be one of those times. Cause later on when Rose attacks him in Blackest Night TT #77, she tags him a couple times convincingly. And admittedly he wasn't trying to kill her and didnt want to fight, but that should only mean his offensive was scaled back, not his ability to avoid getting hit.
I have no doubt that Cassie's and Rose's abilities are not identical, but while my intention while posting the scan was to focus, and showcase Deathstroke's ability to control his body to such an extreme degree (rather than his analysis on Rose's precog), that scan helps support why Cassie should have issues reading him, far better than it does for Rose. I'm not sure it's a case of Deathstroke not knowing how Rose's powers work, or trying to manipulate her (since his words are supported by his earlier actions, at least on this occasion) or if, simply, the writer slipped (which is regrettable, because I really enjoyed Faces of Evil) and got the precog abilities mixed up/didn't conduct proper research for Rose's powers and the way they actually function.
Sonuva, I knew Titans # 77-78 would be brought up at some point, haha. She does manage to hit him, but literally all her hits on him come while he's talking, or even pleads to her, so I perceive it as him not fighting back, neither offensively, nor defensively. He just holds a defensive stance so that she won't gut him, but his mind isn't in it. Be it him saying that everything he did was for her own good, or that she should listen to him about the coming of the Black Lanterns, he is far more concerned to crack through her rage and warn her of the impending danger rather than properly defend himself.
I'm not dismissing the instance by any means. Just offering an alternative point of view. Ravager's control and Cass' control are on different levels. Ravager was born with the ability but didnt have anyone training her how to use it (until later on). Cass' ability was taught from birth in a completely isolated and controlled environment. We've seen Rose struggle with her control where as Cass has complete control. So much so she's been stated as being able to know what a person is thinking or what they'll do before they do it. There's reading body language and then there's Cass' Reading Body Language. But ultimately I agree that when Stroke strings his attacks together properly, its most likely Cass is unable to read him properly. I still believe no matter what there's some degree of movement read which still allows her to avoid him (as seen in most if not all of their fights).
Indisputable. I agree and mentioned that in an earlier section of my reply.
There are alot of ways I think that fight could be interrupted. Batgirl's inner monologue makes it difficult to argue against Stroke here, but I will say that although he's leading her to Rose, there are a few times in which she apparently reads him in order to avoid/counter his attacks. One instance in particular seemingly gives a visual glimpse of Cass actually catching Stroke off guard despite him dictating the battle.
I agree that she surprises him at that point, but then again, we have to remember that despite the disadvantage of being unable to read him, or, at least, having great difficulty in doing so, she's still exceptionally skilled, and fast. She is one of the few characters I don't view as far-fetched managing to do such a thing against Deathstroke in combat. I think the overall showing is very balanced, though, and I believe we agree to that.
I underlined the last sentence because in the scan you posted in which Slade says Rose cant read him and there for will never defeat him is in stark contrast to his underlined statement about Cass, which was also about Rose.
Understandable, but the real problem is that most things concerning Cassie and Slade in relation to one another are surrounded by contradictions, and on this occasion, Rose seems to be thrown into the mix as a byproduct of it.
At the time its possible he either: A, Overestimated Rose's ability. Or B: Once again Underestimated Cass. I think since the statement does come in their last known confrontation it makes more sense then had it come earlier in their carriers. He's had time to study her up close and personal, and since out of five or so encounters has never handled her physically, the writers can openly admit that he cant. The plot to poison her from a distance may have simply had more to do with him seeing it as an easier option then trying to beat her down first. It didn't necessarily mean at the time he didn't think he could, but didn't want to risk injuring her in the process. After all, he didn't poison her to defeat her per say but to get her on his team. Same could apply for the sniper incident. It was simply an easier/less risky maneuver then engaging her in open combat. Its actually a testament to Slade's ability/portrayal of weighing Risk vs Reward attitude I think.
Good explanation.
This is true, but he also had Stroke kicking the ish outta Nightwing for several issues leading up to #117. Including a beatdown in #82 in which Dick doesn't land a shot and ends up paying Slade to leave. They had to throw Nightwing a bone eventually lol.
Haha, yeah, the fights are so radically different that I naturally assumed it couldn't have been the same writer, and there are some glaring similarities between the way Slade's fights with both Dick, and Cassie, in # 117, and # 81, respectively, played out.
Andersen gave a very accurate portrayal of both characters while also managing to give the fans an exciting confrontation.
Agreed.
Geoff though raped Batgirl the entire Titans East arc and is an admitted Cass hater.
I haven't gone through any interviews, but after rechecking things, the Titans East storyline was co-written by Beechen. Considering how different the power levels between the two characters were, in such short succession (Titans East was 2007, Batgirl v2 was released in 2008), I am inclined to think that Geoff indeed wanted to show Slade as superior, and Beechen covered for Cassie immediately afterwards with Deathstroke's statement that he can't beat her without manipulating her, or even the statement that Deathstroke knew he couldn't take her h2h and drugged her from afar (I may be misremembering, but that was the first time the way Slade captured her prior to Titans East, and One Year Later was revealed; until that point, it was tabula rasa for any writer to work with it as he, or she pleased). And, really, the way Deathstroke was portrayed during Batgirl v2 doesn't seem at all similar to Titans East. If I find out that Beechen actually wrote phrases such as:
or, better still:
Then I'm perfectly willing to eat my hat.
David Cain is a tool utilized by the DCU to elevate the fighting credibility of another character. Whats written on panel about him far exceeds any actual showings he has (minus a couple). But given all that is accredited to him over the years, in his prime, hanging with Stroke isnt a stretch. But you're right, the title of the showings weigh heavily here. In fact I've come to the conclusion that Cass' feats outside her own series (both of them) put her down below Batman level. In her own titles she gives Deathstroke fits, knocks out meta-humans with ease, takes down multiple opponents, as well as copying the moves of characters she thinks have excellent technique. In fact in her series she pretty much has photographic reflexes. Outside her comic however, Dick can hang with her, Green Arrow one ups her, Tim dodges her attack and gives her a nice little verbal dismissal, Supergirl kills her with an ability nobody knew she had...I mean its a scary look at two different looks at one character. Ying and Yang.
Thanks for the breakdown.
I may be on the minority here, but I sincerely think we should start specifying exact versions used, since, depending on the series, each character is portrayed so differently, he/she may as well be an entirely different one. Because, at the end of the day, adding all the feats and getting an average just doesn't work. Hell, just now we found out that Devin Grayson and potentially Adam Beechen were behind some spectacularly contradictive showings, the work of other writers notwithstanding.
Original New Titans DS? He would likely beat Cassie. Deathstroke from his on-going? He'd put up a good show, but he would lose. Chuck Dixon Deathstroke? Nobody knows. He went from beating up Batman with little effort twice in the same issue to being unable to hit Nightwing. Gail Simone Deathstroke? I'll make a mention to it later, since I found it interesting. Brad Meltzer Deathstroke? I dare say he'd stomp. Devin Grayson Deathstroke? He can't lay a finger on her. Judd Winick Deathstroke? He would likely win. Geoff Johns Deathstroke? Batgirl who? Bring him Donna Troy. Adam Beechen Deathstroke? Batgirl is simply better than Slade.
Now concerning Slade and Shiva, I found some statements on the net concerning a Gail Simone interview, in which she said that whenever she writes Slade, she thinks of him as being as accurate a marksman as Deadshot, and as good a hand to hand fighter as Shiva. Since there is mentioning of it being stated in an old interview, I haven't been able to find it yet, but it's intriguing to hear how writers view characters (particularly since Gail had Prometheus rank Shiva as # 3 in the world, IIRC). She also mentioned (I actually have a link for this) that the entire BoP team that faced Deathstroke would feasibly have little to no chance of beating him, but she felt that, at the time, he had grown to be too overpowered so she wanted to tone down things a bit.
Another Simone (supposed) statement was on how a potential fight between Slade and Shiva would play out. According to which, Slade ends up killing Shiva, but at the last second before she dies, she pulls some killer move on him and they both go down in a blaze of glory. I have no idea if it's a true statement, or not, but I found it wildly amusing.
@Morpheus_: Great wrap up. There are a couple, maybe one or two, areas in which I disagree but I think overall we agree on most of the key points.
If they ever do have Shiva and Stroke throwdown I pray to god Gail isn't anywhere near it. Shiva's another character who got a sicc makeover in Batgirl v1 but has since been neglected. She was giving the same abilities as Cass but hasn't been written as such since. Although in her fight against Blackest Night Question she shows absolute control over her emotional spectrum to the point that she disappears from his senses lol.
" @Morpheus_: Great wrap up. There are a couple, maybe one or two, areas in which I disagree but I think overall we agree on most of the key points.
If they ever do have Shiva and Stroke throwdown I pray to god Gail isn't anywhere near it. Shiva's another character who got a sicc makeover in Batgirl v1 but has since been neglected. She was giving the same abilities as Cass but hasn't been written as such since. Although in her fight against Blackest Night Question she shows absolute control over her emotional spectrum to the point that she disappears from his senses lol.
"
'Tis was a pleasure.
LOL. I have yet to read Shiva vs Huntress, is that why you object, or has Gail mistreated Shiva in general?
And very cool showing for Shiva.
@The Dark Huntress said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @god_spawn:I'll try and get Gambler to do this once a month. "
@Morpheus_: My intial reaction to the Huntress Shiva confrontation was a bit...fanboyish (although the dialog of Shiva and her personality portrayal was awful). Gail seems to do her own thing without researching prior showings. I dont trust her to do justice to a battle of that caliber to be honest. It would probably be one panel of Stroke tagging Shiva and vise virsa then the BoP come in and get all the shine lol.
" @Morpheus_: My intial reaction to the Huntress Shiva confrontation was a bit...fanboyish (although the dialog of Shiva and her personality portrayal was awful). Gail seems to do her own thing without researching prior showings. I dont trust her to do justice to a battle of that caliber to be honest. It would probably be one panel of Stroke tagging Shiva and vise virsa then the BoP come in and get all the shine lol. "
I hear you. I have really enjoyed the stories I've read from Gail, but when it comes to combat showings, it isn't exactly trustworthy (to put it very lightly).
Can't really think of a writer off hand that would give proper credit to both in a Shiva/Deathstroke fight.
@god_spawn said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" @god_spawn:I'll try and get Gambler to do this once a month. "
Please do, we need debaters like this. Or do i have to be at the ledger to get this quality? "
I'll see if I can goad Gambler into debating a few other fights. Shiva vs Deathstroke, or Deathstroke vs Richard Dragon, maybe.
" I'll see if I can goad Gambler into debating a few other fights. Shiva vs Deathstroke, or Deathstroke vs Richard Dragon, maybe. "
Single most overrated DCU martial artist out there. (but I'm always game to play devils advocate lol) "
Haha, no man. I'd want you to at least believe the character has the potential to win, or that the fight could go both ways. If you think Slade would beat Dragon, it's good enough for me.
Dragon seemed pretty good in his volume two where he faced Shiva and Connor Hawke, but I haven't seen much else from him. From what I gather, he doesn't have many showings to begin with.
" Dragon seemed pretty good in his volume two where he faced Shiva and Connor Hawke, but I haven't seen much else from him. From what I gather, he doesn't have many showings to begin with. "
When was that? Was that the Chuck Dixon series? If so its widely discarded by most fans do to Dixon's own admission of knowing nothing of the character before hand. And the fact that Geoff completely ignored its continuity in 52.
" Dragon seemed pretty good in his volume two where he faced Shiva and Connor Hawke, but I haven't seen much else from him. From what I gather, he doesn't have many showings to begin with. "
When was that? Was that the Chuck Dixon series? If so its widely discarded by most fans do to Dixon's own admission of knowing nothing of the character before hand. And the fact that Geoff completely ignored its continuity in 52. "
Yes, that's the Chuck Dixon volume alright (based on his bibliography, Dragon only had two volumes of his own, Kung Fu Fighter and the Chuck Dixon one).
So, it is widely regarded as non-canon, or is it debatable?
@Morpheus_: I'm not the final say but its not debatable lol. It retconned his Pre-Crisis origin and then it was retconned back by Geoff. (on a side note, I'm always down for a Shiva debate. So if you wanna do a Stroke vs Shiva exchange I'm game)
" @Morpheus_: I'm not the final say but its not debatable lol. It retconned his Pre-Crisis origin and then it was retconned back by Geoff.
(on a side note, I'm always down for a Shiva debate. So if you wanna do a Stroke vs Shiva exchange I'm game) "
LOL, you can always trust Geoff to retcon things, that much is certain. Disappointing though. The fights with Shiva and Connor Hawke were very intense.
Sure. I'll let you know. Let's give it a rest for a while, then come back with a bang, we got to leave the audience asking for more.
" @Morpheus_: It may have been a good fight but Dixon out right character assassinated an entire line of characters lol Sounds good dude. Gives me time to dig out my Shiva stash. "
LOL. It wasn't noticeable to me since I didn't have much experience with their history before reading that volume. As part of my Deathstroke reading, I also read Brotherhood of the Fist (the only story in which both Slade and Shiva appear, even though they never even meet) again by Dixon, who had an absolutely brutal encounter between Shiva and Connor Hawke. Dixon really wanted to present Hawke as a top 3-4 fighter in all of his works.
@Morpheus_: Hahaha that fight was/is top five alltime martial arts battle material. Dixon is no joke when it comes to writing a battle scene and to be fair he was given an impossible task of re-booting Richard Dragon without knowing anything about the character. If vaulting Conner into the top names of the DCU martial arts ranking was his objective, he succeeded. Conner has a great showing (as you pointed out) against Shiva and a decent showing against Cass in her own series where she was owning everybody lol
" @Morpheus_: Hahaha that fight was/is top five alltime martial arts battle material. Dixon is no joke when it comes to writing a battle scene and to be fair he was given an impossible task of re-booting Richard Dragon without knowing anything about the character. If vaulting Cooner into the top names of the DCU martial arts ranking was his objective, he succeeded. Conner has a great showing (as you pointed out) against Shiva and a decent showing against Cass in her own series where she was owning everybody lol
Church my friend, church "
I noticed that, as well. All the fights I've read from him are pretty memorable, one way or the other. I never appreciated Constantine Drakon beating up Connor Hawke nearly as much as I do now, before seeing those really great showings of Connor's. See you around, G.
"@Morpheus_: Hahaha that fight was/is top five alltime martial arts battle material. Dixon is no joke when it comes to writing a battle scene and to be fair he was given an impossible task of re-booting Richard Dragon without knowing anything about the character. If vaulting Conner into the top names of the DCU martial arts ranking was his objective, he succeeded. Conner has a great showing (as you pointed out) against Shiva and a decent showing against Cass in her own series where she was owning everybody lol
Church my friend, church "
Dixon made bane that alone gives him high points,what about good ol bronze tiger though?did he get the shaft in that series too?
@entropy_aegis: He was Dragon's comrade in arms, and was retconned into being his trainer (instead of the O-Sensei). He and Dragon fought once during that series, while Dragon was out of shape, and Tiger was in the end due to having "heart" despite getting trashed for nearly the entire fight.
" @entropy_aegis: He was Dragon's comrade in arms, and was retconned into being his trainer (instead of the O-Sensei). He and Dragon fought once during that series, while Dragon was out of shape, and Tiger was in the end due to having "heart" despite getting trashed for nearly the entire fight. "
I think that series got retconned in 52. Which I was bested pleased about. As much as I liked the series. I should have been better. So I think O-Sensei may still have been his trainer.
" @entropy_aegis: He was Dragon's comrade in arms, and was retconned into being his trainer (instead of the O-Sensei). He and Dragon fought once during that series, while Dragon was out of shape, and Tiger was in the end due to having "heart" despite getting trashed for nearly the entire fight. "
I think that series got retconned in 52. Which I was bested pleased about. As much as I liked the series. I should have been better. So I think O-Sensei may still have been his trainer. "
Yeah, Gambler said the same thing about the series' canonicity a page earlier.
" @entropy_aegis: He was Dragon's comrade in arms, and was retconned into being his trainer (instead of the O-Sensei). He and Dragon fought once during that series, while Dragon was out of shape, and Tiger was in the end due to having "heart" despite getting trashed for nearly the entire fight. "
I think that series got retconned in 52. Which I was bested pleased about. As much as I liked the series. I should have been better. So I think O-Sensei may still have been his trainer. "
Yeah, Gambler said the same thing about the series' canonicity a page earlier. "
At this rate whatever few feats tiger has will end up being depleted LOL,tiger fans should thank morrison for bringing back his rubbish batman oneshot kick back in INC.
" @entropy_aegis: He was Dragon's comrade in arms, and was retconned into being his trainer (instead of the O-Sensei). He and Dragon fought once during that series, while Dragon was out of shape, and Tiger was in the end due to having "heart" despite getting trashed for nearly the entire fight. "
I think that series got retconned in 52. Which I was bested pleased about. As much as I liked the series. I should have been better. So I think O-Sensei may still have been his trainer. "
Yeah, Gambler said the same thing about the series' canonicity a page earlier. "
At this rate whatever few feats tiger has will end up being depleted LOL,tiger fans should thank morrison for bringing back his rubbish batman oneshot kick back in INC. "
" @entropy_aegis: He was Dragon's comrade in arms, and was retconned into being his trainer (instead of the O-Sensei). He and Dragon fought once during that series, while Dragon was out of shape, and Tiger was in the end due to having "heart" despite getting trashed for nearly the entire fight. "
I think that series got retconned in 52. Which I was bested pleased about. As much as I liked the series. I should have been better. So I think O-Sensei may still have been his trainer. "
Yeah, Gambler said the same thing about the series' canonicity a page earlier. "
At this rate whatever few feats tiger has will end up being depleted LOL,tiger fans should thank morrison for bringing back his rubbish batman oneshot kick back in INC. "
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