#1 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Both New 52 and Pre 52 Deathstroke team up.

Both Gray Fox and Raiden team up.

Assassination mission. Death only.

Battle in Warehouse. 500 feet apart.

Standard Gear for both Teams.

#2 Edited by nickzambuto (12982 posts) - - Show Bio

Either Cyborg could solo.

#3 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

yes, either cyborg can solo, both of them have major strength and speed advantages (didn't say durability since New 52 DS has durability on their level)

#4 Posted by saiyan_earthling (5379 posts) - - Show Bio

The cyborgs easily

#5 Edited by Raw_Material (3212 posts) - - Show Bio

#TeamDeathstroke

#6 Posted by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

If the Nth metal can be cut, the cyborgs win.

#7 Posted by AdamtheSubmariner (107 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyborg-ninjas would be too fast imo

#8 Posted by jwalser3 (4797 posts) - - Show Bio

Team DeathStroke takes this. What feats does Gray Fox even have to put him Slade's level?

#9 Edited by MonsterStomp (16112 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: I'm pretty sure the MVP would be Raiden.

#10 Posted by jwalser3 (4797 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: Oh no doubt. But you think Raiden can solo both DeathStrokes?

#11 Posted by jashro44 (19757 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

Team DeathStroke takes this. What feats does Gray Fox even have to put him Slade's level?

He is a class 100 who deflects bullets without his enhancements. Team deathstroke can't win here.

#12 Posted by jwalser3 (4797 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Nice, didn't know Fox was that strong. But Pre Flashpoint has taken hits from WW. New 52 has taken a hit from a submarine, both can easily dodge/deflect bullets.

Pre 52 deflecting bullets

New 52 has deflected a point black shot. Hawkaman has questioned how he is so fast, he too can deflect bullets. This is a good battle, but both DeathStrokes are skilled enough to handle the both of them.

#13 Posted by nick_hero22 (6749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@jwalser3 said:

Team DeathStroke takes this. What feats does Gray Fox even have to put him Slade's level?

He is a class 100 who deflects bullets without his enhancements. Team deathstroke can't win here.

I didn't see anything in that video that implied Gray Fox was a 100 tonner. At the very most I would put him between 10 - 20 tonner at best.

#14 Edited by jashro44 (19757 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3:

Nice, didn't know Fox was that strong. But Pre Flashpoint has taken hits from WW.

Slade isn't nearly that durable on average. His fight with wonder woman is his highest feat of all time. He has been hurt by batman in 3 different fights (once was one shotted all though admittedly was a cheap shot), He has deadshot once put him down with bullets, etc. There is enough evidence to say wonder woman would stomp Slade with ease if she wanted to.

Besides the ninjas are using bladed weapons and there is a difference between durability to piercing attacks and durability to blunt force.

New 52 has taken a hit from a submarine, both can easily dodge/deflect bullets.

Its true he has taken hits from a submarine but it seems there are weak spots in the armor. In deathstroke 17 his armor was slashed with a blade. Bullets managed to damage him when he was shot in the mesh area as well. the ninjas can cut the weak points. Thrown in with the fact there both class 100's with there blades they have a lot more force behind there weapons.

New 52 has deflected a point black shot. Hawkaman has questioned how he is so fast, he too can deflect bullets. This is a good battle, but both DeathStrokes are skilled enough to handle the both of them.

Gray fox deflected bullets before his enhancements and so has Raidain. They have gotten a lot faster after there enhancements. Raidain was also swinging his sword so fast that his blade became red hot with the intensity and he became even faster then that in revengence. Once they clash blades the strength of the cyborg ninjas will mean the deathstrokes get disarmed, they are way to strong for the deathstrokes. They have the speed to keep up so the deathstrokes don't have a chance.

@nick_hero22:

The leg alone probably weighs around 10 tons. Thrown in with the fact its 10 tons crushing downwards the force is likely 100 tons. All though even if he gray fox is only a 10-20 tonner it doesn't change anything really. Slade is still getting disarmed.

#15 Posted by dondave (34588 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Cyborg ftw

#16 Posted by jwalser3 (4797 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Okay, what's Rex's weight? Because I can't find anything, I have a hard time believing that Rex is 100+. I have a hard time believing that they're both 100+, and are extremely durable; because then this one sided.

Both Slade's durability are fine. Even if they get hit it doesn't mean they're out for the count. In the same issue you're talking about Slade gets stabbed and cut up pretty badly but comes out on top, again.

Backwards

Also if Snake can dodge Gray Fox's slash then both Slades can as well seeing how their reflexes are enhanced 10x.

#17 Edited by jashro44 (19757 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3:

Okay, what's Rex's weight? Because I can't find anything, I have a hard time believing that Rex is 100+. I have a hard time believing that they're both 100+, and are extremely durable; because then this one sided.

I don't know the exact weight of rex but the thing looks massive. From what I just googled it seems the average tank (I'm using tanks as a estimate because rex is meant to be a nuclear tank) can weigh from 30-60 tons and Rex looks a lot bigger then a tank too me. Keep in mind Rex is also stomping down on Gray fox so the leg is also compressing down on him.

As far as Raidain goes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uplIptcF5A

Skip to 23 minutes and watch until the 25 marker to see his class 100 strength. Not only does he stop rays blade but he also tosses ray really high in the air.

I do think this is a mismatch and it should be locked IMO.

Both Slade's durability are fine. Even if they get hit it doesn't mean they're out for the count. In the same issue you're talking about Slade gets stabbed and cut up pretty badly but comes out on top, again.

Bullets don't compare to class 100's stabbing a sword into you. In the scans you posted Pre 52 deathstroke was getting hurt. Also @nickzambuto once told be raidain can cut things on a molecular level as well (he showed me the video but i can't find it so hopefully he will be able to post it if he logs on).

The feat with new 52 deathstroke is a blunt force showing. There are weak points which can be cut.

He was also put down with bullets in deathstroke #7 (admittedly Slade was weakened but the point is the armor did not protect him)

Also if Snake can dodge Gray Fox's slash then both Slades can as well seeing how their reflexes are enhanced 10x.

Twin snakes isn't canon (my mistake for uploading the scene form twin snakes where gray fox catches rex's leg all though the same thing happened in the playstation version anyways) so we never see snake dodge his blade in a cut scene in the play station version, and I have argued the only reason snake survived gray fox was because gray fox wanted to fight him in honorable combat for old times sake. I think he held back on snake because they were friends. He was basically making comments the whole time like "yes hurt me more! make me feel alive again snake!". Which tells me he wanted snake to hit him.

Then there is the fact Raidain is a lot faster than gray fox. To be honest Radain solos without much trouble.

#18 Posted by saiyan_earthling (5379 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@jwalser3:

Okay, what's Rex's weight? Because I can't find anything, I have a hard time believing that Rex is 100+. I have a hard time believing that they're both 100+, and are extremely durable; because then this one sided.

I don't know the exact weight of rex but the thing looks massive. From what I just googled it seems the average tank (I'm using tanks as a estimate because rex is meant to be a nuclear tank) can weigh from 30-60 tons and Rex looks a lot bigger then a tank too me. Keep in mind Rex is also stomping down on Gray fox so the leg is also compressing down on him.

As far as Raidain goes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uplIptcF5A

Skip to 23 minutes and watch until the 25 marker to see his class 100 strength. Not only does he stop rays blade but he also tosses ray really high in the air.

I do think this is a mismatch and it should be locked IMO.

Both Slade's durability are fine. Even if they get hit it doesn't mean they're out for the count. In the same issue you're talking about Slade gets stabbed and cut up pretty badly but comes out on top, again.

Bullets don't compare to class 100's stabbing a sword into you. In the scans you posted Pre 52 deathstroke was getting hurt. Also @nickzambuto once told be raidain can cut things on a molecular level as well (he showed me the video but i can't find it so hopefully he will be able to post it if he logs on).

The feat with new 52 deathstroke is a blunt force showing. There are weak points which can be cut.

He was also put down with bullets in deathstroke #7 (admittedly Slade was weakened but the point is the armor did not protect him)

Also if Snake can dodge Gray Fox's slash then both Slades can as well seeing how their reflexes are enhanced 10x.

Twin snakes isn't canon (my mistake for uploading the scene form twin snakes where gray fox catches rex's leg all though the same thing happened in the playstation version anyways) so we never see snake dodge his blade in a cut scene in the play station version, and I have argued the only reason snake survived gray fox was because gray fox wanted to fight him in honorable combat for old times sake. I think he held back on snake because they were friends. He was basically making comments the whole time like "yes hurt me more! make me feel alive again snake!". Which tells me he wanted snake to hit him.

Then there is the fact Raidain is a lot faster than gray fox. To be honest Radain solos without much trouble.

Rex weighs around over 500 tons.

#19 Posted by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

"I'm your son, Grant!"

#20 Posted by nick_hero22 (6749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

You do have any specifications to actually validate the claim that the legs weighs around 10 tons? How much pressure can the legs exert, and it seemed to me that Gray Fox was struggling a little to lift it.

#21 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyborgs

Revengance makes him a beast

#22 Edited by jwalser3 (4797 posts) - - Show Bio
#23 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: handbook

METAL GEAR REX - STANDARD MECHA DEFENSE MACHINE

WALKING BATTLE TANK (WBT) - REX0023b

Crew:

1 (nose cockpit)

[Armament] Machine-guns:

2xg12.7mm[sic] in the nose (covering 60° arc to the front)

Air ordinance:

3xPhalanga-F (AT-3 "Rain from Heaven") Radio-guided anti-troop missiles

Rail Gun:

18.5m Rail Gun (Special Ops Optimum Bombardment 422 "Widowmaker"), launch tube: Standard (conventional, nuclear)

Laser:

ArmsTech International V17 Vulcan Cannon

[14]

, Searing LaserStorm High Energy Cutter "Slice n' Dice" (covering 90° arc)

Ammunition:

10,000x12.7mm, 72xPhalanga-F Reds, Laser Pro Pack, 1x

Cruise AGM-129 ACM

Length (gun forward):

18.9m

Length (hull):

7.455m

Width:

5.760m

Height (gun forward):

12m

Height (gun up):

13m

Weight (combat):

505,450kg

Power-to-weight Ratio:

450hp/ton

Engine:

ArmsTech AGM 4000 "Behemoth"

Maximum Road Speed:

140.777km/h

Maximum Range:

1,505km

Fuel Capacity:

5,550lit

Armor (type):

Laminate/Steel

NBS System:

Yes

Night Vision Equipment:

Yes

#24 Edited by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

Beat me to it. Maybe I can scan it before you though...

#25 Posted by jwalser3 (4797 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: I'll give it to the Cyborg Ninjas. But only because of Radien, IMO either version of Slade could handle him. Also I noticed it on the wiki. So I don't know how I felt about the information on Rex.

The Metal Gear Solid: Official Mission Handbook gave a list of specifications regarding Metal Gear REX. However, details regarding the machine guns and air ordinance are incorrect (both contradict statements made in Metal Gear Solid about these weapons[13]), putting the canonicity of this information in question:

#26 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: The thing is Raiden manhandles Ray, which is heavier and a more advanced version of ray

when it comes to it comics have higher muscle at the high end, but at street level vg/manga/anime owns

#27 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6954 posts) - - Show Bio

Inverse Ninja Law.

Law of Ninjitsu Conservation.

They will lose.

Online
#28 Posted by jashro44 (19757 posts) - - Show Bio

@saiyan_earthling: All right thank you.

@jashro44:

You do have any specifications to actually validate the claim that the legs weighs around 10 tons? How much pressure can the legs exert, and it seemed to me that Gray Fox was struggling a little to lift it.

I don't really see what needs validation. Your average tank weighs 30-60 tons. Rex is a lot bigger then your average tank. Your average car crusher exerts 150 tons of force despite not weighing any where near 20 tons. I think its fair to spay Rex is applying more force then he weighs.

http://www.tesoroscrapmetal.com/articles/car-crushing-how-it-works/

Also there are statistics posted in this thread by Nerx which confirms its over 500 tons. All though if that isn't enough...

http://thaiphong.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/iraq-wars-10th-anniversary-after-the-war/

If you need more proof here is the size of a 60 ton tank in comparison to a person:

Rex is clearly a lot bigger in size.

It is fair to say Gray fox is class 100. I think Gray fox showing strain over this sort of feat still makes him a lot stronger then either deathstroke.

#29 Posted by TifaLockhart (14043 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke certainly couldn't replicate that.

#30 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Twin Snakes is cannon. There is NOTHING online or written that says it is not fact. it is the same game with udated Graphics and Gameplay. Better Quality Cinemas and little more filler.

No one can say it is not cannon as it has been overseen by Hideo and was made to be the better version in quality.

Also snake dodging Gray Fox is fact as Gray Fox was not trying to kill Snake. At all. If he wanted to he would have.

#31 Posted by jashro44 (19757 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Twin Snakes is cannon. There is NOTHING online or written that says it is not fact. it is the same game with udated Graphics and Gameplay. Better Quality Cinemas and little more filler.

No one can say it is not cannon as it has been overseen by Hideo and was made to be the better version in quality.

No. Someone asked why twin snakes wasn't in the metal gear solid HD collection and the response was that Kojima wanted everything in the collection to be canon. He supervised the project but it was created by silicone knights.

http://www.examiner.com/article/kojipro-explains-twin-snakes-exclusion-from-metal-gear-solid-hd-collection

Also snake dodging Gray Fox is fact as Gray Fox was not trying to kill Snake. At all. If he wanted to he would have.

Not sure why your telling me this as that is what I stated basically.

#32 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I am very grateful you could point that out to me.

I done tons of site searching a few months back on this and there was nothing to state it as non cannon, plus as I said at the time it was overseen by Kojima. So now we have irrefutable evidence that Kojima said **** that, I can cross out one question of the millions of the list.

#33 Edited by jashro44 (19757 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Edited by nick_hero22 (6749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@saiyan_earthling: All right thank you.

@nick_hero22 said:

@jashro44:

You do have any specifications to actually validate the claim that the legs weighs around 10 tons? How much pressure can the legs exert, and it seemed to me that Gray Fox was struggling a little to lift it.

I don't really see what needs validation. Your average tank weighs 30-60 tons. Rex is a lot bigger then your average tank. Your average car crusher exerts 150 tons of force despite not weighing any where near 20 tons. I think its fair to spay Rex is applying more force then he weighs.

http://www.tesoroscrapmetal.com/articles/car-crushing-how-it-works/

Also there are statistics posted in this thread by Nerx which confirms its over 500 tons. All though if that isn't enough...

http://thaiphong.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/iraq-wars-10th-anniversary-after-the-war/

If you need more proof here is the size of a 60 ton tank in comparison to a person:

Rex is clearly a lot bigger in size.

It is fair to say Gray fox is class 100. I think Gray fox showing strain over this sort of feat still makes him a lot stronger then either deathstroke.

The Rex isn't a car crusher nor do we have any evidence to build a comparison between hydraulic systems (if the Rex uses a hydraulic system to move) of the two, so the link to the website you posted is moot unless there is verifiable evidence to draw a accurate comparison. The Rex was created with purpose of having mobility during combat, so trying to draw parallels between it and a tank isn't exactly convincing. The tank is created with the intent of having maximum armor protection, which it would make more sense to utilize heavy armor plating when engineering such a vehicle. The Rex is created with the intent of mobility and having a stable structure, which it would make more sense to utilize light or thinner armor plating to maintain mobility and for stabilization because if the body is too heavy for the legs, it could collapse or cause problems in terms of mobility. So, I'm not buying the "It's big, so therefore, it must weigh a 100 tons"argument. Also the pressure the legs can exert directly correspond to the downward force of the legs, so the amount of pressure depends on the hydraulic system used to move the Rex's legs. I don't really care about the statistics that Nerx made up because so many things are left vague such as the actual dimensions of the Rex, how much the parts weigh, what materials were used to construct it, and etc. that he wouldn't be able to come up with any meaningful statistics to determine the actually weight of the Rex. His statistics are essentially fan-fiction, and have no bearings here. Like I have said before; I haven't seen Gray Fox perform any strengths that would put him in the Class 100 category.

#35 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yet, Snake was able to best him one on one? If Snake is able to dodge the attacks of Fox, surely Deathstroke will be able to.

#36 Posted by jashro44 (19757 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22:

The Rex isn't a car crusher nor do we have any evidence to build a comparison between hydraulic systems (if the Rex uses a hydraulic system to move) of the two, so the link to the website you posted is moot unless there is verifiable evidence to draw a accurate comparison. The Rex was created with purpose of having mobility during combat, so trying to draw parallels between it and a tank isn't exactly convincing.

The fact it is as agile as ray is enough to say the hydraulic systems are strong as it gets something as big as rex in the air.

he tank is created with the intent of having maximum armor protection, which it would make more sense to utilize heavy armor plating when engineering such a vehicle. The Rex is created with the intent of mobility and having a stable structure, which it would make more sense to utilize light or thinner armor plating to maintain mobility and for stabilization because if the body is too heavy for the legs, it could collapse or cause problems in terms of mobility. So, I'm not buying the "It's big, so therefore, it must weigh a 100 tons"argument.

The whole purpose of metal gear is for it to be the ultimate weapon. Rex alone was basically being used to threaten the entire world IIRC. Why would they make the armor of such a powerful weapon weak? It would make more sense to create a protective defense.

Also the pressure the legs can exert directly correspond to the downward force of the legs, so the amount of pressure depends on the hydraulic system used to move the Rex's legs. I don't really care about the statistics that Nerx made up because so many things are left vague such as the actual dimensions of the Rex, how much the parts weigh, what materials were used to construct it, and etc. that he wouldn't be able to come up with any meaningful statistics to determine the actually weight of the Rex. His statistics are essentially fan-fiction, and have no bearings here. Like I have said before; I haven't seen Gray Fox perform any strengths that would put him in the Class 100 category.

If you actually bothered to read his post you would realize that:

  1. He got these statistics from a hand book and didn't "make them up"
  2. You would know the reason I pointed you out to his post was because he actually mentioned that rex was confirmed to weigh over 500 tons.

Here is a scan of the guide book if you really need it.

Weight: 505, 450 KG

In other words over 500 tons. There were no made up statistics. Gray Fox is class 100.

#37 Posted by jashro44 (19757 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Yet, Snake was able to best him one on one? If Snake is able to dodge the attacks of Fox, surely Deathstroke will be able to.

As I mentioned above twin snakes isn't canon so the fight is arguabley game play mechanics as it does happen during game play. Even if thats not the case during the fight Gray fox was all like "hurt me more! Yes!" Judging by that he didn't seem to be trying on snake. He seemed to want snake to hurt him. I would need to rewatch the fight though.

#38 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Was this the instance you were referring to? and if so, how exactly is it non-cannon?

I agree, especially with Raiden, the Cyborg team stomps team Slade. But i don't think that Gray Fox can solo two Deathstrokes.

#39 Edited by jashro44 (19757 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara: I don't know if gray fox can solo but I would say he is defeating either Slade. Anyways according to this source twin snakes wasn't included in the HD package because Kojima wanted everything in the package to be canon.

http://www.examiner.com/article/kojipro-explains-twin-snakes-exclusion-from-metal-gear-solid-hd-collection

Metal gear solid one is canon but not twin snakes because it was only supervised by Kojima. So the snake beating gray fox could be considered game play mechanic. Even if its not I think its fair to say Gray Fox didn't go all out based off the dialogue (IMO at least, Nick does disagree with my view admittedly).

#40 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Fair enough. My only really point here is that i don't think that Gray Fox can take on both Slade's at the same time.

#41 Edited by nick_hero22 (6749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nick_hero22:

The Rex isn't a car crusher nor do we have any evidence to build a comparison between hydraulic systems (if the Rex uses a hydraulic system to move) of the two, so the link to the website you posted is moot unless there is verifiable evidence to draw a accurate comparison. The Rex was created with purpose of having mobility during combat, so trying to draw parallels between it and a tank isn't exactly convincing.

The fact it is as agile as ray is enough to say the hydraulic systems are strong as it gets something as big as rex in the air.

The Rex didn't seem very agile to me based off the video that was posted.

he tank is created with the intent of having maximum armor protection, which it would make more sense to utilize heavy armor plating when engineering such a vehicle. The Rex is created with the intent of mobility and having a stable structure, which it would make more sense to utilize light or thinner armor plating to maintain mobility and for stabilization because if the body is too heavy for the legs, it could collapse or cause problems in terms of mobility. So, I'm not buying the "It's big, so therefore, it must weigh a 100 tons"argument.

The whole purpose of metal gear is for it to be the ultimate weapon. Rex alone was basically being used to threaten the entire world IIRC. Why would they make the armor of such a powerful weapon weak? It would make more sense to create a protective defense.

Just because something is composed of lighter or thinner metal doesn't necessary mean that it is weaker, there are a lot of variation among different types of metals that have many different properties.

Also the pressure the legs can exert directly correspond to the downward force of the legs, so the amount of pressure depends on the hydraulic system used to move the Rex's legs. I don't really care about the statistics that Nerx made up because so many things are left vague such as the actual dimensions of the Rex, how much the parts weigh, what materials were used to construct it, and etc. that he wouldn't be able to come up with any meaningful statistics to determine the actually weight of the Rex. His statistics are essentially fan-fiction, and have no bearings here. Like I have said before; I haven't seen Gray Fox perform any strengths that would put him in the Class 100 category.

If you actually bothered to read his post you would realize that:

  1. He got these statistics from a hand book and didn't "make them up"
  2. You would know the reason I pointed you out to his post was because he actually mentioned that rex was confirmed to weigh over 500 tons.

Here is a scan of the guide book if you really need it.

Weight: 505, 450 KG

In other words over 500 tons. There were no made up statistics. Gray Fox is class 100.

I'm glad you guys finally posted the specification I was asking for in the beginning of this debate.

#42 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Weight: 505, 450 KG

In other words over 500 tons. There were no made up statistics. Gray Fox is class 100.

I'm glad you guys finally posted the specification I was asking for in the beginning of this debate.

Sometime pulling teeth, or info in this case, is a painful process lol.

#43 Edited by nick_hero22 (6749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22 said:

@jashro44 said:

Weight: 505, 450 KG

In other words over 500 tons. There were no made up statistics. Gray Fox is class 100.

I'm glad you guys finally posted the specification I was asking for in the beginning of this debate.

Sometime pulling teeth, or info in this case, is a painful process lol.

LMAO

#44 Posted by nickzambuto (12982 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22 REX is confirmed to weigh over 500 tons. Considering the thing can jump tens of meters into the air, it'd also be putting out a lot more force then that when it tried to crush Fox. I've yet to see any feats for Deathstroke posted ITT that surpass what a human Gray Fox could do, so instead of trying to disprove feats, you should post some. Raiden is a lot more skilled and dexterous than Deathstroke, and though Gray Fox has fewer feats, he should actually be better if we trust power scaling within the universe.

@jashro44 Frank was enjoying the fight, which is why he was yelling things like hurt me more. He was extremely schizophrenic and totally insane by the time of MGS1, and Naomi stated the only reason he continued to live was so he could have one final fight against Snake. I'll post the CODEC conversation when I can (in the next week or so), but basically for people that played the game, the only argument that can be made is Fox wasn't using all his skill and went berserker. There was no cutscene in MGS1 because the tech was too dated for an elaborate fight, but it is canon that Solid Snake fought the Cyborg Ninja during Shadow Moses. The game shows Gray Fox panting on his knees after the boss battle, I don't see room for argument. Also, Raiden's H/F Blade is stated to lacerate objects at the molecular level, and Boris refers to it as completely indestructable (Armstrong disproved that though). It was sharp enough to split an enhanced Metal Gear RAY in two without even making full contact, among other things.

@calebhara Snake dodging Fox's attacks has no bearing on whether Slade can, considering the two never met and can't be compared. That's like me saying Captain America survived hits from Hulk so OBVIOUSLY Batman can. Solid Snake has also displayed hypersonic reaction time in his fights with Fortune and Crying Wolf, and to a lesser extent in his fights with Olga and Liquid's Hind D helicopter, so him beating Fox is no strike against the ninja.

Basically I still believe either ninja could solo. Skill and speed aren't even factors. The cyborgs make one move and Slade's sword will fly out of his shattered arm. They are really just too strong.

#45 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Sorry about the vagueness of my original statement. What i mean to say is, if new 52 Slade has speed feats that rival Snake's, and the pre-flashpoint Slade has speed feats that surpass him, wouldn't it be logical to say that both of them can dodge Fox's attacks? I just think that, combined with the fact that they have strength in numbers, and the strength needed to put Fox down that he himself would not solo.

However, i agree that Raiden solo's this team with relative ease and the two Cyborg's together would rip them limb-from-limb.

#46 Posted by nick_hero22 (6749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22 REX is confirmed to weigh over 500 tons. Considering the thing can jump tens of meters into the air, it'd also be putting out a lot more force then that when it tried to crush Fox. I've yet to see any feats for Deathstroke posted ITT that surpass what a human Gray Fox could do, so instead of trying to disprove feats, you should post some. Raiden is a lot more skilled and dexterous than Deathstroke, and though Gray Fox has fewer feats, he should actually be better if we trust power scaling within the universe.

@jashro44 Frank was enjoying the fight, which is why he was yelling things like hurt me more. He was extremely schizophrenic and totally insane by the time of MGS1, and Naomi stated the only reason he continued to live was so he could have one final fight against Snake. I'll post the CODEC conversation when I can (in the next week or so), but basically for people that played the game, the only argument that can be made is Fox wasn't using all his skill and went berserker. There was no cutscene in MGS1 because the tech was too dated for an elaborate fight, but it is canon that Solid Snake fought the Cyborg Ninja during Shadow Moses. The game shows Gray Fox panting on his knees after the boss battle, I don't see room for argument. Also, Raiden's H/F Blade is stated to lacerate objects at the molecular level, and Boris refers to it as completely indestructable (Armstrong disproved that though). It was sharp enough to split an enhanced Metal Gear RAY in two without even making full contact, among other things.

@calebhara Snake dodging Fox's attacks has no bearing on whether Slade can, considering the two never met and can't be compared. That's like me saying Captain America survived hits from Hulk so OBVIOUSLY Batman can. Solid Snake has also displayed hypersonic reaction time in his fights with Fortune and Crying Wolf, and to a lesser extent in his fights with Olga and Liquid's Hind D helicopter, so him beating Fox is no strike against the ninja.

Basically I still believe either ninja could solo. Skill and speed aren't even factors. The cyborgs make one move and Slade's sword will fly out of his shattered arm. They are really just too strong.

1) I asked for the specifications that support the statement that they weigh 500 tons.

2) What has Human Gray Fox accomplished on-panel? Deathstroke has shown the skills to tangle with highly skilled martial artist such as Batman, Nightwing, Cassandra Cain, and Bronze Tiger; he has also shown the ability to fight and successfully defeat large rosters of well established heroes. I have yet to see Cyber Gray Fox do anything worth-noting let alone his human counterpart, so please enlighten me to what has Gray Fox accomplished outside of beating canon fodders.

3) Power Scaling is irrelevant, we measure combat performance based on feats and official statements. Again, you make a reference to a character (Raiden) being more skilled than Deathstroke, do you have any evidence to support this notion?

#47 Posted by nickzambuto (12982 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Sorry about the vagueness of my original statement. What i mean to say is, if new 52 Slade has speed feats that rival Snake's, and the pre-flashpoint Slade has speed feats that surpass him, wouldn't it be logical to say that both of them can dodge Fox's attacks? I just think that, combined with the fact that they have strength in numbers, and the strength needed to put Fox down that he himself would not solo.

However, i agree that Raiden solo's this team with relative ease and the two Cyborg's together would rip them limb-from-limb.

Snake dodging Fox's strikes is a feat for Snake in itself. Just because Slade has similar feats to Snake, does not mean we can write away the Cyborg Ninja's speed advantage. Rather than compare feats with Solid Snake, we should be using Deathstroke's OWN feats to determine whether he can keep up with the lightning quick slashes of someone with the speed and skill of Gray Fox. That's like if I said Batman can knock down steal doors, survive a bullet to the head, stunt the Hulk with his hits, and chuck a 500 pound slab of rock tens of meters through the air, just because he benches almost the same amount of weight as Captain America (who has done those things).

If Deathstroke and Snake ever canonically met, and their speed was displayed to be about equal, then yes, we can say Slade is capable of dodging Frank Jaeger's attacks. However, since they have NOT met, they can not be compared that way.

@nick_hero22 and Slade also has a physical advantage over every single one of those characters you named. Statistically, the Cyborg Ninja is superior to Deathstroke by a very wide margin. Slade's absymal edge in technique isn't going to completely overwhelm a character who could literally rip him in half. If you want skill, Frank Jaeger was modified and conditioned to be the absolute perfect soldier since birth. He has done far more than take on cannon fodder; in fact if you want to talk about cannon fodder, a depowered Slade Wilson could barely handle 4 random soldiers. By comparison, Frank Jaeger killed entire armed units singlehandedly as a child. He was heavily trained and enhanced as a Philosophers experiment, to the point of literally having his memories wiped and emotions purged after every mission, so that the only thing taking up space in his brain is combat techniques. He can predict enemy attacks just from the movement of their muscles, and has the precision to not only deflect automatic gunfire from several soldiers at a time, but also from high caliber marksman like Solid Snake and Big Boss (both of whom have tagged other speedsters, like Vamp and Olga Gurlukovich). Do you realize how difficult it is to cut something as small as a bullet in half? Let alone when you have dozens of them coming at you, let alone keeping in mind the speeds they travel at? When Deathstroke tried to block bullets with his sword, he could barely keep track of two.