Deathstroke (Arrow) vs Captain America (MCU)

Steve.

@nickzambuto:

If Cap is blocking them with his shield, how is he not reacting to them?

Well the shield automatically covers 1/3 of his whole body. If he was shot at, drew his shield, and then placed it in front of the projectile, that would be impressive, but throughout all three of his film appearances the most reacting he's ever done is twitching the shield a few extra centimeters. And that's at best, at worst, most of the shots are literally aimed at his shield already and he doesn't have to react at all.

@nickzambuto: There is a ton of fluff in your post. I'm simply just going to respond to your Comparison in Physicals. Namely your 'Speed' Analysis.

You say, "Let's be honest, Cap has next to no speed feats at all. His best showings are his pure combat speed during The Winter Soldier, but that's unquantifiable." , Is there anything really quantifiable in terms of speed when it comes to H2H combat? How is Deathstrokes speed quantifiable and Caps not? Even in the cutting arrow incident, there is no way to find out how fast he reacted, we have zero variables. All we know is, he must have reacted really fast. So that statement applies to pretty much everyone, Not just Cap. In another thread I Put the Arrow vs. Ra's fight side by side with the Cap v Bucky fight. It was plain as day that neither Blew the other out of the water, but it really looked like Cap and Bucky were moving a bit faster, unbiased opinion (even a mod agreed with me if that sort of thing means anything to you). I know Deathstroke wasn't in that fight and i have him a cut above ollie and Ra's. But there is absolutely no way you can justify saying, "Going by feats, Deathstroke is without a doubt faster" , when h2h is very comparable.

"Vanishing in wide open spaces as soon as someone looks away" I mean, come one man. Not to be demeaning, but if we always use these instances as feats, than Nolan batman, Jason Vorhees, Michael Myers and every other Horror villain are the fastest combatants of all time. I'd say it gives him a bump in speed. But mostly, ill say its stealth if i had to attribute it to something.

Also, in saying Slade is more skilled because he had fighting feats pre-mirakuru and Cap has none, yo are inherently implying that Slade was beating opponents stronger than him. Feel free to prove this statement wrong if you have proof (which is possible i don't remember every pre-mirakuru fight scene), Deathstroke has never beat anyone stronger than himself either.

As far as the fight goes speaking broadly, I just don't know how to trump Slades greatest attribute, Durability. Guy was a effing tank. Only things that phased him was a tranq dart and the mini bombs to the chest. Since Cap has none, he better hope his shield+strength can put him down. Cause strength alone isn't winning it.

@sachmoo:

Even in the cutting arrow incident, there is no way to find out how fast he reacted, we have zero variables. All we know is, he must have reacted really fast.

False. Oliver's arrows travel at over 300 FPS, meaning Deathstroke can react that fast. Hence quantifiable. Fighting fast on camera is something that they both do, so Deathstroke takes the lead since he has that feat in addition.

The difference is that Sebastian was literally staring at Slade one moment, then the next moment, Slade suddenly wasn't there anymore. In a wide open sparsely furnished room. He didn't hide, he left.

@nickzambuto: Not false. Your ignoring distance traveled, trajectory, and other stuff to quantify the raxtion speed of the reaction feat. Plus, we know Ollie Uses a modded Bow to shoot modded arrows. We literally don't have the variable. Literally.

In the disappear scene, he was prepped. Blood and his men walked in a room, heard a voicing and couldn't pinpoint where from. He then appears in a split second, slaughters em (very quickly I might add) and disappears in the split second blood was looking down. I'm not trying to downgrade Slade at all. Just saying horror villains do that all the time.

Technically, Cap did the something similar when he appeared out of thin air, almost literally, to fight Loki. It was an open outside setting with people knelt in circle, in a courtyard. No clue what to attribute that to.

Cap. The only edge Slade has is probably durability. But Steve is more disciplined, faster, more agile, smarter, and probably a better fighter.

How does being prepped matter to that feat? He was just fast.

He jumped out of a plane and landed. He didn't walk around, kill several people, and disappear.

@frisky4: Confusing people by not having them be able to identify where you are at while speaking, Appearing out of nowhere and Disappearing out on nowhere takes prep. Entrance route escape rout, all that. Once again, I'm not downgrading Slade. Just saying if you wanna say Michael Myers is as fast as slade, go ahead.

And you are guessing Cap jumped out of a plane. The movie doesn't show or explain it. The quinjet arrives later. What you assume makes infinite more sense, but it's not implied that happened. At all.

He got there, killed people, and left.. Having prep didn't boost his speed, and it looked like he left just by walking out the door.

So what if he didn't jump from a plane? He jumped down from somewhere.

1. Why do we need all of those factors? The feat isn't good enough at face value? I'm not a mathematician and I don't think you are either, but getting the exact measurement of how fast Slade reacted down to the closest nanosecond really isn't necessary. He deflected multiple arrows from a master archer at close range, that's better than anything Cap has done, end of discussion. You're being far too specific here.
2. The feat isn't appearing, it's disappearing. Anybody can appear out of nowhere when nobody is paying attention, Cap's feat isn't impressive at all. Deathstroke was standing right in front of Blood and then literally vanished from the whole room without Blood even seeing him move.

Still waiting on speed feats for Cap.

@nickzambuto: Why do we need all those factors, because you literally said it's QUANTIFIABLE. You said that, in fact i said you have to react very fast to do it. Now, your arguing that im being too specific? Your contradicting yourself. I dont care to quantify it, apparently you did, but now you dont. Thats fine with me.

Loki was staring directly at the guy and cap appeared from above him. Clearly, Loki was paying attention when cap just appeared. My whole point was just to point out inaccuracies in your argument. If you want, go to the Ra's vs WS thread and see the videos i pointed out for h2h speeds. But again, im not saying Cap is really much faster that DS IF he is. The 2 are very comparable in most categories.

So what you're saying is, you just felt like wasting everyone's time by arguing for no reason?

How is Steve more skilled than Slade when Slade beat Oliver who's more skilled than anyone in the MCU and Oliver only beat a constant weakening Slade through Incapacitation?

I think Cap wins, but for different reasons. Cap being the smarter & better fighter? Uhh, Huh? Oh and for round 2 how is Cap more durable?

Bump

@nickzambuto: Linky

One cool part of why Captain America's fighting changed so much from the first film to the second film is, after he was thawed out and joined S.H.I.E.L.D. he had to update his fighting training to learn new techniques for the modern world. Back in WWII, martial arts for example weren't really very widespread in the world in terms of mercenaries and military personnel etc, and Special Forces troops were not what they later became in terms of the vast array of fighting styles and abilities that such troops developed after the mid-20th Century. But nowadays, mixed martial arts and extreme training are commonplace in the military and among the sort of enemies Captain America encounters on his missions. So he had to update his training, and S.H.I.E.L.D. is precisely the sort of organization to supply the best and most varied sort of such training. Cap, due to his super-soldier physical status, could learn and master any such fighting techniques quickly, adapt them to his own personal style, and mix them together to maximize their effectiveness, too.

Slade wins.

@rbt: I think you're looking at the wrong threads, friend. I haven't found one yet with more favoring Ollie.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/mcu-captain-america-vs-cw-arrow-1571441/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/green-arrow-vs-captain-america-8015/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/arrow-season-2-vs-captain-america-winter-soldier-1551623/

etc.

Also, you have not used "facts" at all to your claim that an arrow is faster than a hypersonic plasma round. In order for it to be plasma it is at least hypersonic. That is science. It was stated in Captain America: The First Avenger that he has a healing factor at least 4x the rate of a normal human, is that discredited somehow? Like I said, you can have an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's a good one.

I didn't say that Oliver would defeat Cap in a strictly h2h match. I only said Oliver is more skilled. Oliver has done everything Cap has done and some more without any enhancements. Cap always uses his superior strength to defeat his enemies. Just watch his fight with Shield agents in elevator. He had to overpower a lot of them because he couldn't deal with all of them with just skill. His superior durability comes into ply almost everytime. He takes hit but just doesn't go down because of his durability. Just rewatch the elevator scene and you'll understand.

And this is how Oliver fights-

Over a dozen men, many attacking him at same time and Oliver was not tagged once. He never overpowered anybody, because he doesn't need to. His fighting is more clean and disciplined. Cap on the other hand looks to end the game quickly. Yes, Cap could have very well taken down everybody in this video as well, but his method would have been way different. He would have focused on one man at a time while tanking the hits from a couple other(durability in pay). He would then one shot that guy(strength) and then move on to another. That's exactly how it happened in elevator scene. Cap was literally focused on one person at a time the whole time. And the highly qualified shield agentsnever thought to attack him when he was busy fighting other. Even when Cap was stunned by Crossbones, the other guy waited for his to go down before attacking. In this video, there are many instances when Oliver is dodging two men while hitting the third. Hence the superior skill.

Also, you have not used "facts" at all to your claim that an arrow is faster than a hypersonic plasma round. In order for it to be plasma it is at least hypersonic. That is science.

Science? Really? You do not want to have a debate in advance physics with me. You're applying advanced physics on a plasma gun. Let me tell you why that's laughable. Because going by physics, a plasma gun like the one displayed in TFA can not exist. Ever.

It was stated in Captain America: The First Avenger that he has a healing factor at least 4x the rate of a normal human, is that discredited somehow?

No its not. It shouldn't. But how good do you think a 4x healing factor is? A simple scratch which draws blood takes almost 72 hours, sometimes even more to heal. So, for Cap it would take 18 hours or more. A scratch. How effective do you think this is going to be in a battle?

Like I said, you can have an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's a good one.

Again, a guy who has been providing feats vs a guy who is making statements.

I have to leave for work, but I'll leave this here for now

@rbt: Most of the top Arrow characters are clearly more skilled than movie Cap, I don't where people are going with this.

Maybe when Cap fights movie Black Panther or Movie Taskmaster or something he can get some better showings. Maybe in Cap 3 he'll show some more skill. Although Cap has fought groups of soldiers at once in Cap 1. I will agree Ollie is using skill, while Cap would rather just rag dog his opponents by tossing them around.

They are all attacking him at once and they are clearly coordinating their attacks.

@lukehero:

Most of the top Arrow characters are clearly more skilled than movie Cap, I don't where people are going with this.

Yeah. I was just replying to @namor_curry who thinks Cap is more skilled than Oliver.

They are all attacking him at once and they are clearly coordinating their attacks.

He still had to engage with only one at a time. In the end when two of them attacked him at once, he was captured.

@rbt: Wow, okay lets take this from the top, shall we?

The video you posted, which you claim to be the reason why Arrow is a better fighter than Captain America, takes place in a long hallway. You stated Ollie is a better fighter because he can take on all of these people at once without being tagged. It is a HALLWAY where he fights one individual at a time, rarely intermingling with two opponents at once. You decided to compare this to the elevator scene in The Winter Soldier, during which Steve Rogers beats 10 highly trained SHIELD agents specifically assembled to neutralize Captain America. He does this with one arm for the majority of the fight, as well as all being enclosed in an extremely small area. If you want to see Steve taking on multiple opponents without being tagged, like you claim he cannot do, watch the mashup again, specifically the ship scene. Besides the fact that he does this, he dominates his opponents with speed and strength so high they are incomparable to Oliver Queen's. There are no feats Arrow has that show he is superior in technique to Steve Rogers, let alone equal.

I'm done arguing the other parts of this because it's just mind boggling that you would seriously argue an arrow travels faster than these plasma guns, or claim that Captain America was hospitalized due on his own accord instead of because he was knocked unconscious after letting Bucky beat the snot out of him and falling from two colliding and buring helicarriers and didn't have a say in the matter. Hell, after he's shot point blank range he lifts a metal I-Beam off of Bucky. But he doesn't heal quickly apparently.

@namor_curry:

It is a HALLWAYwhere he fights one individual at a time, rarely intermingling with two opponents at once.

Watch the video again. This time by putting your bias aside. 0:36, 0:46, 0:50

You decided to compare this to the elevator scene in The Winter Soldier, during which Steve Rogers beats 10 highly trained SHIELD agents specifically assembled to neutralize Captain America.

Those agents were nothing more that fodders. Like the ones Oliver stomped here. Except for Crossbones. Who tagged Cap twice in one on one. And Cap would have gone down if not for his durability.

There are no feats Arrow has that show he is superior in technique to Steve Rogers, let alone equal.

Well, I tried posting feats and logic. If I still can't show why you're wrong, then I'll just stop. There is no point in me continuing to post.

I'm done arguing the other parts of this because it's just mind boggling that you would seriously argue an arrow travels faster than these plasma guns

Yeah. An arrow whose speed we actually know vs a plasma beam which has no other feat other than being energy. Get this out of your mind that just because its an energy weapon its faster than bullets and arrows.

Hell, after he's shot point blank range he lifts a metal I-Beam off of Bucky. But he doesn't heal quickly apparently.

Called pain tolerance. Google it.

Steve gets his guts ripped out, teeth's crushed and takes his head as a trophy.

@rbt:

1. I said he rarely fights more than one opponent. Is this not true? At most he kicks fallen opponents that are making their way back up, dodges a blow that both opponents were aiming in the same place, and uses an arrow to kill one while fighting another. Then watch this again.

There are several scenes from The First Avenger, The Avengers and The Winter Soldier where Cap handles more than one opponent at a time who are both on their feet. Try 2:23 on for size, where he takes on 3 at once. I really have no idea how you can make the argument that Cap cannot handle more than one opponent, especially when Oliver Queen can't do it well at all.

And really? Still with the arrows? You claim to know the speed of them. How fast were they? Also, rewatching this again and comparing it to the arrow feat again, I am still at a loss for how you think the arrows are faster. It doesn't make sense technologically and at doesn't make sense when visually compared. You're stretching really hard for this one. Same with the pain tolerance. This bullet tore through his muscles thereby making it physically impossible for him to lift and toss aside a giant metal I-Beam unless he had already begun healing, especially since he was also stabbed in the shoulder/upper chest before that as well. Please stop.

Sure there are.

Much more fluid and complex movements rather than needing to use super strength to overwhelm fodder. If you can't see that, you're being awfully biased.

@frisky4: Arrow's fighting style is much slower, partly because he doesn't have the SSS yes, but it is also heavily based on grappling. He puts opponents in locks and throws/rolls with them, which always appears more fluid than punches and kicks. As a former D1 wrestling recruit I can really vouch for that one. Cap doesn't have to make use of this technique when fighting non-suped up opponents. He can typically 1 or 2 shot them, however when he does fight stronger opponents, like Bucky, he is seen making use of this. I don't see how you think Arrow's movements are more complex, however. Once you get to the Winter Soldier scenes when Steve is finally a martial art master, I think Steve's look to a lot more difficult to pull off.

@namor_curry:

1. I said he rarely fights more than one opponent. Is this not true? At most he kicks fallen opponents that are making their way back up, dodges a blow that both opponents were aiming in the same place, and uses an arrow to kill one while fighting another. Then watch this again

If you are trying to low ball, at least make it a little believable.

Try 2:23 on for size, where he takes on 3 at once.

Problem with fodders Cap goes against and one Oliver goes against is that the second ones actually hit back.They swing and kick. Now rewatch the video at 2:23. When Cap was engaging with one, the other dude was just standing there waiting for his turn. This has been a pattern in all three movies.

. I really have no idea how you can make the argument that Cap cannot handle more than one opponent, especially when Oliver Queen can't do it well at all.

Sure he can handle more than one opponent. He has. But he utilizes his strength too much. While when Oliver takes on multiple opponents, he doesn't have that luxury. Oliver can't send men flying out of arms reach like Cap usually does. Whenever he's outnumbered, he always send one flying away. That's not skill. That's brute strength.

And really? Still with the arrows? You claim to know the speed of them. How fast were they?

220mph. Could be a little faster or slower.

It doesn't make sense technologically.

Don't bring up science again. We're discussing a movie where a guy grew from 5'4 to 6'2 in a few seconds.

when visually compared.

I'm glad you brought that up. Look at this gif and tell me how fast do you think plasma blasts are compared to Cap's shield toss.

This bullet tore through his muscles thereby making it physically impossible for him to lift and toss aside a giant metal I-Beam

Again we're talking about a sci fi movie. It takes a normal healthy man 3-6 months to completely heal from a bullet wound. In an earlier post you said Cap heals 4 times faster. You're contradicting yourself.

I have lost count how many time I've repeated same things to you. I don't intend to anymore. If you have anything relevant to say feel free to tag me. Otherwise don't. I don't want to post a video of something when I know, you'd just try to nitpick.

@rbt: So, according to your logic, cap should pretend not to be as strong as he is to make things more of a challenge so he can display more skill? I... I have no words for that. The fact that you're trying to say this just proves how much more skilled Steve is than Oliver. This whole argument is trying to limit Cap so he can even be compared to someone not as skilled as he is. That's the most bass-ackward logic I've heard.

And it's funny, you try to bring science in with the arrow feat, but when I try to say highly sophistocated Hydra projectiles manifested from alien technology would be faster than an arrow, it's dumb because science. And yes, watch that gif again, The round is shot and cleared across the screen in a fraction of a second, and then the shield hits him. Also, I said at least 4 times faster. You still haven't made any improvements on disproving how quickly his healing factor can work, because he was shot, stabbed, and completed the feat. There's nothing to argue with that, just like there's nothing to argue with Cap being a better fighter than Arrow. Which is why every other thread on this site says this. It's just ignorant at this point to keep arguing otherwise.

True, back in WWII Captain America was probably one of the most dangerous close quarters combatants in the world, he had great striking technique and his moves were extremely efficient. However, a lot of time had passed since WWII, and fighting has become much more advanced in the modern era, much faster and flashier. Cap in the MCU does seem to have inherited his comic book counterparts super soldier brain and adaptable fighting skills; even in the Avengers, as the movie progressed and the fight against the Chitauri raged on, you could see Cap gradually using more and more advanced techniques in response to his opponents' abilities, the battle started with him not being smooth or agile at all and ended with him flipping all over the place, and by the time of Cap 2 his experience with SHIELD had shaped him into a master martial artist. Against Batroc, Cap was at first thrown off due to his opponent's tremendous speed and agility, but after taking a moment to analyze his fighting style, Cap easily adapted and countered every move Batroc made without even using his shield. So Cap is indeed a terrific fighter, although all that said he still doesn't have better feats than Oliver, who is like a low-level comic book peak human and will probably surpass his comic book counterpart by the time the show reaches it's peak.

Also about the plasma rifles, they aren't actually shooting plasma. It was never stated in any of the movies that the Tesseract produces plasma specifically, just some form of energy. People on the internet started calling it plasma in place because not many people on the internet are actually scientists who can tell the difference; I'm not either, I just know that plasma is a specific type of matter that the Tesseract does not produce. So even if IRL a plasma rifle would fire projectiles at hypersonic speeds, that doesn't mean anything because there are no plasma rifles in the MCU, just Tesseract powered rifles that shoot non-descript energy beams.

Still Steve, better in nearly every way.

I've always backed Steve

I'm glad you two agree with me

Arrow can win the second round.

Steve certainly takes the first.

Deathstroke

Mismatch. Obviously death stroke.

Deathstroke

Cap 6-7/10.

Cap 8-9/10.

Still Steve

Steve.

Steve took on Ultron and did extremely well.He beats Slade senseless!!!!!!!!

I dont see Cap even hurting Slade.... Slade is stronger more durable and has better speed feats. Cap is more athletic and has the shield.