Apparently Death is suppose to be one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel Universe but how does it/her stand up to the Phoenix which has cheated Death more times then I can count.
Death is Death.. the embodiment of Mortality.. the end of existence..
but the Phoenix is beyond Death.. she is the resurrection force which ensures life after death.. plus the Phoenix is a hybrid which both embodies Life and Death, Creation and Destruction.. the Phoenix is superior to Death because of the fact that Life came first before Death.. and that the concept of Death never came into being until the first death of a sentient life.. plus when Jean killed the 5 billion inhabitants of the D'bari star system, Death came to her telling her to create towers for the souls she have taken for they are beyond Death's jurisdiction..
the Phoenix wins simply because her powers are beyond Death itself..
Galactus is truly beyond Death because he actually willed himself back into existence when Mistress Death DIDN'T want Galan to resurrect himself. All Phoenix has ever done is resurrect itself with minimal to no resistance from Mistress Death.
@RiseofApocalypse: Galactus is not beyond Death.. yes, he could resurrect himself from death but Death still has power over him.. when Galactus attempted to separate the Phoenix from Rachel, Death appeared and told him that what he is doing is denying life in the universe, making it into a infinite void.. something that even the mighty Galactus cannot survive.. Death only neglect Galactus because of his importance to the fabric of reality.. Galactus himself that the day will come that he would surrender himself to Death..
even Eternity himself is still subjected to Death herself..
why? because that is the natural flow of the existence and creation.. every life must eventually die.. that is the concept of mortality.. which applies to all, even to Abstract Entities and Cosmic Beings..
but Phoenix is the resurrection force.. the promise of Life after Death..
and Galactus is not even supposed to be in this battle.. why is he even mentioned???
Death doesn't interfere with the Phoenix simply because the Phoenix is beyond Death's authority.. Phoenix embodies life.. not just life but also creation, destruction and rebirth..
Death is on a level beyond any incarnation of the Phoenix. Universes can continue to exist without the Phoenix's existence. There are also many other beings and artifacts that can destroy and re-create a Universe as well as sustain itself without any involvement from the Phoenix. She isn't even important to the Universe in comparison with most other Abstract beings. Lord Chaos and Master Order, Abstracts below that of Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion, are more essential to the Universe than Phoenix is. Without Lord Chaos and Master Order, a Universe cannot even function properly, however, without the Phoenix, Universes can still sustain themselves.
An example showing that Phoenix is not essential to the Universe, or really even needed, is when the Five Cosmic Containment Units made a doppelganger 616 Universe without the Phoenix. They were the sustenance for the Universe without any need for Phoenix whatsoever :)
Another example is when Entropy and Captain Marvel completely erases the 616 Eternity and then created a new 616 Universe on their own without the Phoenix. :)
I have a challenge for anybody on here to find an issue where the Phoenix created any Universe. You won't be able to win that challenge, because the most the Phoenix Force has ever done was destroy a divergent reality from 616, an alternate reality, and in the process Jean was destroyed.
" the Phoenix Force is only what we call that which is the big bang, in it's native form it is not a being and has no form to speak of just ask Reed Richards. There are no instances of Phoenix creating the universe because at that point it is not called the Phoenix, yet that which is called the Phoenix has been given the credit by mortals and abstracts alike from Reed Richards to the Watcher to Death to Eternity. Stop trying to deflect from the topic at hand, it has been shown in this thread and by the fact that the Phoenix can resurrect at it's leisure that Death holds no power over it.
"
Death has controlled the Phoenix Force before, literally making it its pawn. So your saying that Death has no power over it is faulty :)
Also, Phoenix dies just like anything else dies, then is reborn like all the other abstracts. So it's not all that special :/
@Phoenix of the Black Throne: Why is that even bein mentioned. We all know that Phoenix guided Galen to the Cosmic Egg, it was Eternity that created Galactus.
" @RiseofApocalypse: Galactus is not beyond Death.. yes, he could resurrect himself from death but Death still has power over him.. when Galactus attempted to separate the Phoenix from Rachel, Death appeared and told him that what he is doing is denying life in the universe, making it into a infinite void.. something that even the mighty Galactus cannot survive.. Death only neglect Galactus because of his importance to the fabric of reality.. Galactus himself that the day will come that he would surrender himself to Death..
even Eternity himself is still subjected to Death herself..
why? because that is the natural flow of the existence and creation.. every life must eventually die.. that is the concept of mortality.. which applies to all, even to Abstract Entities and Cosmic Beings.. but Phoenix is the resurrection force.. the promise of Life after Death.. and Galactus is not even supposed to be in this battle.. why is he even mentioned??? Death doesn't interfere with the Phoenix simply because the Phoenix is beyond Death's authority.. Phoenix embodies life.. not just life but also creation, destruction and rebirth.. "
"To condemn the cosmos to...and yourself to an ETERNITY in an infinite void where not..". "can even you endure desolation?". Please point out to where it was stated that Galactus would not have survived?
Galactus was at the time questioning himself and his being. He was not sure whether if he was a force of nature or not. He would have allowed Death to take him, I never said that Death would not be able to take him if Galactus wanted to be taken to her realm.
Already addressed that scan.
That is from a What If? 616 Eternity =/= alternate Eternity. Plus Eternity was sent to OBLVION. It was nullified and sent into the void that is Oblivion, not Death.
All abstracts are immortal. I was just saying that Galactus is truly beyond Death, and not Phoenix. Phoenix is a small aspect of Eternity. She needs life to survive, she is not life. She is the flame that burns the stars and keeps them alive, big diff. Eterniy is life, and Galactus is the Power of Cosmos. Death is death. Oblivion is void. Infinity is iffy, but she is supposed to be space.
Yea, Phoenix didn't do shit for Galactus. She has never destroyed a prime universe on panel. She is not the alpha or the omega as Galactus has been referred to be the alpha and omega a couple of times to say the least.
I have read the isue that you are posting that scan from. It's from the comic where Galactus is reverted back to being Galen. You don't have to post it multiple times.
" everything I said has a scan too, so false how? apparently i do have to post as many time as it takes for you to understand the words in it, BIG BANG=PHOENIX, there is nothing to even debate about it's been stated on panel, anyway Death can't beat Phoenix as this is not a debate about Galactus or how the Phoenix is above him as well. "
The Big Bang does not equal the Phoenix. Please stop making fallacious claims or it will be hard to take your posts seriously in the future :)
" everything I said has a scan too, so false how? apparently i do have to post as many time as it takes for you to understand the words in it, BIG BANG=PHOENIX, there is nothing to even debate about it's been stated on panel, anyway Death can't beat Phoenix as this is not a debate about Galactus or how the Phoenix is above him as well. "
The Big Bang does not equal the Phoenix. Please stop making fallacious claims or it will be hard to take your posts seriously in the future :) "
Oh plz, Phoenix of the Black Throne has an outstanding reputation, and no matter what he says, whether it is silly or blagna, his post will ALWAYS be taken seriously. If anyone should watch what they say, it is you; I mean you are insulting one of the most experienced post leaving on Comic Vine, and the best part of it all is that he is right, you people do have a problem with seeing what is right in front of you, you guys just never learn to accept it.
" everything I said has a scan too, so false how? apparently i do have to post as many time as it takes for you to understand the words in it, BIG BANG=PHOENIX, there is nothing to even debate about it's been stated on panel, anyway Death can't beat Phoenix as this is not a debate about Galactus or how the Phoenix is above him as well. "
The Big Bang does not equal the Phoenix. Please stop making fallacious claims or it will be hard to take your posts seriously in the future :) "
Oh plz, Phoenix of the Black Throne has an outstanding reputation, and no matter what he says, whether it is silly or blagna, his post will ALWAYS be taken seriously. If anyone should watch what they say, it is you; I mean you are insulting one of the most experienced post leaving on Comic Vine, and the best part of it all is that he is right, you people do have a problem with seeing what is right in front of you, you guys just never learn to accept it.
"
I have nothing against the Phoenix character, just against all the hype it receives to the point that people say it could even have a chance against an Abstract like Death.
PotBT is not correct. What you two are doing is using hyperbole for your arguments and tap dancing around the fact that Phoenix has no feats to compare and in addition has been rendered useless against far less than entities like Death or Galactus :)
@A Touch of Class (ATC): What you need to do is stop talking off the topic, and stay focused on the argument, remember, this is a battle against DEATH and the PHOENIX, not GALACTUS! :P I am fighting with you on that on the other thread which you should be getting back to. Also, if the SCAN itself is right there, how in the hell can we be "tap dancing" around the FACTS?
" @A Touch of Class (ATC): What you need to do is stop talking off the topic, and stay focused on the argument, remember, this is a battle against DEATH and the PHOENIX, not GALACTUS! :P I am fighting with you on that on the other thread which you should be getting back to.Also, if the SCAN itself is right there, how in the hell can we be "tap dancing" around the FACTS? "
That scan was not fact, haha. Reed Richards was not even speaking in absolute terms. He says "...or what have you". It's all hyperbole. He also witnessed on-panel the Alien Entity creating the Big Bang.
The Phoenix Force has absolutely nothing to do with initiating the Big Bang, it was created by the Big Bang. It even admits this is how it came into being.
There was only one beginning which was then re-created 4 times throughout Marvel history.
1) The Original Universe, the Infinity Being, collapsed into a void a.k.a. Cosmic Egg. It allowed Galan to survive and merges with him in order to create a new Universe, and that new Universe was created by the Big Bang. The Universe is the Marvel Universe.
2) The second time was when Sise-Neg traveled back through time and space, absorbing all the magical energy throughout history. He reaches the pre-Big Bang point, the Void, and decides to re-create it. Thus, the same Marvel Universe is re-created.
3) Entropy manipulated Genis into helping him end the Marvel Universe. All of creation turned into a void and then Entropy explodes in a Big Bang to re-create Marvel.
4) Thanos with THOTI absorbed all reality. The reality turned into a void and it was the end of the Marvel Universe. Thanos with a Big Bang creates reality and the Marvel Universe.
5) The Alien Entity stands in the void before the Big Bang. He then creates the spark that starts all of creation. He alone sparked the Big Bang and harnessed all the energies of creation. Also, using Reed Richard's mind as a guide, he created the Marvel Universe and all of its history.
The Phoenix Force is given way too much credit, and much fantasy is placed on accomplishments of the entity :)
Galactus or whatever issues is not included in this topic..
the topic clearly states Death vs Phoenix.. and if one possesses a mind which can comprehend logic, it is define as Death vs Life and Resurrection..
Death is Death, no more no less.. she is the absence of life.. it is her role in the scheme of things..
Phoenix is Life, but she is much more than Life.. she is the resurrection force.. the promise of life after Death.. that is the simple logic.. can't such feeble minds understand that..
saying Death is above the Phoenix is defying and upsetting the balance of reality.. Death is Death, she is not Life.. Phoenix is Life.. as well as creation.. such claims of questioning her status as the Spark of Creation is questing the 75 years of institutionalized profile that marvel has place her to.. plus, it is clearly stated on every profile given to the Phoenix that she is the Creation.. show me a certain scan that proves me otherwise.. i know others criticize this due to lack of evidence.. but remember "The Absence of Proof is not the Proof of Absence".. if people here are questioning that, direct your concerns to the creators of the character.. she maybe not shown on all those feats of uni, but please do remember that the Phoenix is not an entity or an abstract.. it is a FORCE.. any force related to universal creation may be referring to the Phoenix.. the White Hot Room is the Core of Creation.. as well as the Heart of the Phoenix..
and the fact is Galactus is dependent on the Phoenix.. that is the fact.. the Phoenix powers the stars.. Stars who's light spark Life on Planets.. Planets that the Devour of World needs to survive.. this paradigm should explain more..
anyone who is against this analogy should post an evidence proving my claims are wrong..
and again Death has no authority over the Phoenix.. that is why whenever Jean dies, Death speaks to her.. guiding her on the path she should choose.. and remember that death is dependent on life.. for if there is no life, then there is no death.. plus there are more life to be born than that of which had died..
Phoenix wins because she is also death, plus more..
@RiseofApocalypse: so? that does that prove Galactus is greater than the Phoenix.. again, Galactus is not even mentioned in the battle.. so why would he be included? and your points does not prove in any way that Death is more powerful than the Phoenix..
@spiderguylll: but even Death itself is not permanent.. it is not the End.. that is why there is a promise of Life after Death.. am i right? that is the sole promise of God, who says He will give life to the dead through the act of resurrection (John 5:21, Roman 4:17 and revelations 20:12).. ^__^
"Galactus or whatever issues is not included in this topic.. the topic clearly states Death vs Phoenix.. and if one possesses a mind which can comprehend logic, it is define as Death vs Life and Resurrection.. Death is Death, no more no less.. she is the absence of life.. it is her role in the scheme of things.. Phoenix is Life, but she is much more than Life.. she is the resurrection force.. the promise of life after Death.. that is the simple logic.. can't such feeble minds understand that.. saying Death is above the Phoenix is defying and upsetting the balance of reality.. Death is Death, she is not Life.. Phoenix is Life.. as well as creation.. such claims of questioning her status as the Spark of Creation is questing the 75 years of institutionalized profile that marvel has place her to.. plus, it is clearly stated on every profile given to the Phoenix that she is the Creation.. show me a certain scan that proves me otherwise.. i know others criticize this due to lack of evidence.. but remember "The Absence of Proof is not the Proof of Absence".. if people here are questioning that, direct your concerns to the creators of the character.. she maybe not shown on all those feats of uni, but please do remember that the Phoenix is not an entity or an abstract.. it is a FORCE.. any force related to universal creation may be referring to the Phoenix.. the White Hot Room is the Core of Creation.. as well as the Heart of the Phoenix.. and the fact is Galactus is dependent on the Phoenix.. that is the fact.. the Phoenix powers the stars.. Stars who's light spark Life on Planets.. Planets that the Devour of World needs to survive.. this paradigm should explain more.. Phoenix = Stars = Planets (Life) = Galactus.. that's it..anyone who is against this analogy should post an evidence proving my claims are wrong.. and again Death has no authority over the Phoenix.. that is why whenever Jean dies, Death speaks to her.. guiding her on the path she should choose.. and remember that death is dependent on life.. for if there is no life, then there is no death.. plus there are more life to be born than that of which had died.. Phoenix wins because she is also death, plus more.. "
Agreed, The Phoenix was once known to be the bridge between Life its self, and Death, she has more abilities and power than Death, and can defend and defeat death if she has to.
Galactus or whatever issues is not included in this topic.. the topic clearly states Death vs Phoenix.. and if one possesses a mind which can comprehend logic, it is define as Death vs Life and Resurrection.. Death is Death, no more no less.. she is the absence of life.. it is her role in the scheme of things.. Phoenix is Life, but she is much more than Life.. she is the resurrection force.. the promise of life after Death.. that is the simple logic.. can't such feeble minds understand that.. saying Death is above the Phoenix is defying and upsetting the balance of reality.. Death is Death, she is not Life.. Phoenix is Life.. as well as creation.. such claims of questioning her status as the Spark of Creation is questing the 75 years of institutionalized profile that marvel has place her to.. plus, it is clearly stated on every profile given to the Phoenix that she is the Creation.. show me a certain scan that proves me otherwise.. i know others criticize this due to lack of evidence.. but remember "The Absence of Proof is not the Proof of Absence".. if people here are questioning that, direct your concerns to the creators of the character.. she maybe not shown on all those feats of uni, but please do remember that the Phoenix is not an entity or an abstract.. it is a FORCE.. any force related to universal creation may be referring to the Phoenix.. the White Hot Room is the Core of Creation.. as well as the Heart of the Phoenix.. and the fact is Galactus is dependent on the Phoenix.. that is the fact.. the Phoenix powers the stars.. Stars who's light spark Life on Planets.. Planets that the Devour of World needs to survive.. this paradigm should explain more.. Phoenix = Stars = Planets (Life) = Galactus.. that's it..anyone who is against this analogy should post an evidence proving my claims are wrong.. and again Death has no authority over the Phoenix.. that is why whenever Jean dies, Death speaks to her.. guiding her on the path she should choose.. and remember that death is dependent on life.. for if there is no life, then there is no death.. plus there are more life to be born than that of which had died.. Phoenix wins because she is also death, plus more..
The logic behind the Phoenix supporters is all wrong. The Phoenix represents the cycle of life and death - of rebirth - as such, she is not greater than either concept. She is not greater than Eternity...and she is not greater than Death. The same way the In-Betweener serves Chaos and Order, the Phoenix represents life and death.
I think Death could kill any given human embodiment of Phoenix, but not necessarily the Phoenix itself, on which point I agree with Lord Oraculous (good to see a thread with his stuff again).
@riseofapocalypse: you're just making yourself and your claim more stupid. Phoenix force is life, marvel universe has confirmed that. She is the embodiment of life, and life depends on it. She's not some aspect of eternity, she is her own being. If you want to go say Phoenix is eternity's aspect and that she is not life, you are just another troll or Phoenix hater, delete yourself pls
@henryarguelles5: how? Phoenix is beyond death because it can't die and can resurrect. Plus, death herself has no jurisdiction over Phoenix, she said it herself.
@kundelar: is that why death is killed by beyonder? And is that why Phoenix is life and resurrection and immortality? Is that why Phoenix has never died before?
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