Death Seed Sentry vs Cosmic Cube Beyonder and Molecule Man

@mazeraiii said:

@the_red_viper said:

@mazeraiii said:

@the_red_viper said:

@mazeraiii said:

@the_red_viper said:

@mazeraiii said:

@decaf_wizard said:

SPITE OR WANK

seriously, just because DSS beat a nerfed MM doesn't mean he can take the likes of cosmic cube beyonder. He might be low skyfather in power but thats pretty much it.

It was not nerfed or weakened or depowered MM,it was Regular post-retcon MM

The Watcher wasn't nerfed or weakened or depowered when Rulk broke his teeth.

I guess that makes Rulk > The Watcher because it makes so much sense.

Loebforce,nuff said,and Loeb run on Rulk is non-canon. ^_^

I don't see how that's an excuse.

I can just as easily say that Sentry had the "Brevootforce" against Molecule Man.

Bendisforce,not brevoort,and if you consider that moment a PIS,it is your problem.

I don't see how it can be PIS when a character was called Omnipotent and Godlike.He defeated him,he was created to be that powerfull. :)

Bendis, Brevoot, doesn't matter. Nothing you said makes any sense.

Dr. Manhattan was called omnipotent. So was Odin. Neither of them is omnipotent.

Thor is a god. So is Cheetah. Also Raiden from MK who is a street-tier. Don't see how that fact makes them more powerful or anything.

Hulk was created to be "the strongest there is". Doesn't mean he really is the strongest there is.

Your statements make no sense.

I know that those statements are hyperbole,but a guy who was called Omnipotent,must be pretty powerfull,and they made him defeat MM. :)

They made Squirrel Girl beat Thanos.

@the_red_viper said:

@mazeraiii said:

@the_red_viper said:

@mazeraiii said:

@the_red_viper said:

@mazeraiii said:

@the_red_viper said:

@mazeraiii said:

@decaf_wizard said:

SPITE OR WANK

seriously, just because DSS beat a nerfed MM doesn't mean he can take the likes of cosmic cube beyonder. He might be low skyfather in power but thats pretty much it.

It was not nerfed or weakened or depowered MM,it was Regular post-retcon MM

The Watcher wasn't nerfed or weakened or depowered when Rulk broke his teeth.

I guess that makes Rulk > The Watcher because it makes so much sense.

Loebforce,nuff said,and Loeb run on Rulk is non-canon. ^_^

I don't see how that's an excuse.

I can just as easily say that Sentry had the "Brevootforce" against Molecule Man.

Bendisforce,not brevoort,and if you consider that moment a PIS,it is your problem.

I don't see how it can be PIS when a character was called Omnipotent and Godlike.He defeated him,he was created to be that powerfull. :)

Bendis, Brevoot, doesn't matter. Nothing you said makes any sense.

Dr. Manhattan was called omnipotent. So was Odin. Neither of them is omnipotent.

Thor is a god. So is Cheetah. Also Raiden from MK who is a street-tier. Don't see how that fact makes them more powerful or anything.

Hulk was created to be "the strongest there is". Doesn't mean he really is the strongest there is.

Your statements make no sense.

I know that those statements are hyperbole,but a guy who was called Omnipotent,must be pretty powerfull,and they made him defeat MM. :)

They made Squirrel Girl beat Thanos.

Different situations.
1.In fight against MM it was explained how he defeated him,because he had more raw power in the same ability.
2.SG defeated Thanos without explanation...she just did it.And afterall it is SG she would solo everyone. :D

1) Sentry may be more powerful then either but no proof his is as powerful as both combined. Deadpool beat Mr. X. Deadpool beat Taskmaster. That does not mean Deadpool can beat both together

2) Everybody jobs. Thor has put odin on his knees in one hit. Yet in a extended fight with Thanos, Thanos couldn't put him down. Spiderman beat Firelord. Rulk beat a Watcher. Batman kicked the hell out of Spectre etc. Having sentry use his advance powers more often will give us a better knowledge of his actual feats

3) Has Molecule Man done anything since he fought Sentry?

Thank you.

1) I agree.

2) Sentry beat Molecule Man in a contest of reality warping. Sentry had more raw power and it was enough to come back three times after Owen disintegrated him even (normally his molecules would have remained in the same state) and to overpower him.

3) He helped Doom to kill the Beyonders and Doom used him as a bomb to destroy The Beyonders Universe (they will confirm that in Secret Wars 5)

@the_red_viper:

If I recall correctly the Loebforce Rulk happened in an alternate reality so it doesn't matter.

Loeb could set-up everything at his convenience.

@realitywarper:

2) I am not denying that he overpowered MM. Just stating that everyone character has high points and low points

So Loeb is not legit since he can "do everything to his convenience"... like any other writer can't. You're implying that Bendis' work is holy and he never writes things "to his convenience".

I call legitimizing Loebforce as long as Sentry beating MM remains legit.

I call legitimizing Squirrel Girl beating Thanos too.

Also Batman kicking Spectre, Green Arrow subduing Etrigan, Spiderman beating Firelord, Deathstroke soloing the JLA in Identity Crisis, and the whole "Deadpool Kills The Marvel Universe" arc.

The Loebforce Rulk run was in another universe, another reality...

Not in the earth-616 reality.

Do you get it now ?

Loebforce is a reference to Jeph Loeb.

Why are you talking about Bendis now ?

What Bendis di is canon and belongs to the 616 Universe.

By the way you are quoting irrelevant exemples.

I've never heard of Loeb's Rulk being non-canon. And I'm talking about Bendis because he was the writer behind Sentry's fight with MM (at least that's what MaZeRaIII told me). And not all canon things are automatically legit. Green Arrow beat Etrigan in-canon. Is that legit now?

Sentry Vs Molecule Man is canon.

Sentry.

Duo

Up to the writer.

@mazeraiii:

Nope,MM was retconed once,the scan you showed shows MM's source of power THE BEYONDERS,and even before SW it was said that Cosmic Cube's power comes from the Beyonders.So he is still CC.

I just showed a scan where his now canon origins are told without mentioning any CC that he SHARED with the original Beyonder that is now unambiguously said to be the Beyonder thus tearing this connection apart, while describing MM's origins explaining his SINGULAR specifics (as opposed to being a HALF with Beyonder being the second half, that now isn't even possible), and yet you're in denial?

But the next issue said to explain all mechanics behind the Secret Wars, we shall see.

Against Sentry it was Power vs Power contest,in which Sentry won.

And?It was not universal so what?

Thor with OF fought Borr(who is skyfather) and they didn't even bust a city,if we go by your logic it is a pathetic showing,and they cannot bust a city.

lol did you just try to ascribe to me those comparisons you made? You claimed Sentry's showing against MM was better than MM vs. Beyonder, I only made fun of it.

Thor vs. Bor not being devastating was pretty ridiculous, but at least we know this fight was Skyfather level cause Thor commented "if not for OF I would be dead". Even in your comparison there was at least something actually indicative.

IT was RAW Power contest,and Sentry won,do you like it or not it happened.

Sentry has more power than MM,it doesn't need to be shown as a multiversal battle.

Even Ivory Kings vs Abstracts was not universal battle or multiversal they were just blasting them and killing.

It doesn't need to be shown as Universal battle,if the writer wants one character be above another then he will be..

Yeah and the only raw power we've seen MM use is a high degree molecule manip, not overwhelming reality bombing like he did against Beyonder. That's a problem, and nobody used MM since then properly, so nobody knows on what level he operates now. And judging by his showing against Sentry, nothing on the so called CC-level.

Oh, and btw, what powers did Sentry learn as the result? No, not "reality warping", it was molecule manipulation, is that what CC beings actually use? Or was it trivial for just Molecule Man? Kinda suggestive I'd say. And knowing Bendis was behind the attempt of Inhuman mutant Beyonder retcon maybe it also meant, there are new status quos for these guys?

lol Ivory Kings killed abstracts, whose power is unambiguous and that battle was happening on all planes of existence seemingly. Very comparable.

But hey, a Swan killed a MM, she must be multeverse buster!

Molecule man without too much trouble. Unless he's jobbing, in which case he already lost.

@adamtrmm said:

@mazeraiii:

Nope,MM was retconed once,the scan you showed shows MM's source of power THE BEYONDERS,and even before SW it was said that Cosmic Cube's power comes from the Beyonders.So he is still CC.

I just showed a scan where his now canon origins are told without mentioning any CC that he SHARED with the original Beyonder that is now unambiguously said to be the Beyonder thus tearing this connection apart, while describing MM's origins explaining his SINGULAR specifics (as opposed to being a HALF with Beyonder being the second half, that now isn't even possible), and yet you're in denial?

But the next issue said to explain all mechanics behind the Secret Wars, we shall see.

Against Sentry it was Power vs Power contest,in which Sentry won.

And?It was not universal so what?

Thor with OF fought Borr(who is skyfather) and they didn't even bust a city,if we go by your logic it is a pathetic showing,and they cannot bust a city.

lol did you just try to ascribe to me those comparisons you made? You claimed Sentry's showing against MM was better than MM vs. Beyonder, I only made fun of it.

Thor vs. Bor not being devastating was pretty ridiculous, but at least we know this fight was Skyfather level cause Thor commented "if not for OF I would be dead". Even in your comparison there was at least something actually indicative.

IT was RAW Power contest,and Sentry won,do you like it or not it happened.

Sentry has more power than MM,it doesn't need to be shown as a multiversal battle.

Even Ivory Kings vs Abstracts was not universal battle or multiversal they were just blasting them and killing.

It doesn't need to be shown as Universal battle,if the writer wants one character be above another then he will be..

Yeah and the only raw power we've seen MM use is a high degree molecule manip, not overwhelming reality bombing like he did against Beyonder. That's a problem, and nobody used MM since then properly, so nobody knows on what level he operates now. And judging by his showing against Sentry, nothing on the so called CC-level.

Oh, and btw, what powers did Sentry learn as the result? No, not "reality warping", it was molecule manipulation, is that what CC beings actually use? Or was it trivial for just Molecule Man? Kinda suggestive I'd. And knowing Bendis was behind the attempt of Inhuman mutant Beyonder retcon maybe also meant, there are new status quo for these guys?

lol Ivory Kings killed abstracts, whose power is unambiguous and that battle was happening on all planes of existence seemingly. Very comparable.

But hey, a Swan killed a MM, she must be multeverse buster!

Awesome how you throw out / twist the context.

Stop with the molecule manipualtion stuff, I already showed the Interview of Bendis where he state that it wasn't Molecule Manipulation and we knows that Sentry powers are reality warping, and we knows that Molecule Man powers are reality warping too as he was constructed as a Cosmic Cube being / living bomb by the Beyonders and activated by the Beyonders energies.

Moreover the inhuman Beyonder was a construct of The Beyonder and not a real thing as Bendis and Brevoort explained in an interview.

@realitywarper:

But context is everything right.

Why should I stop with the actual showings? It's right there, in this fight. Maybe Sentry is a reality warper, but he never consciously warped any reality like actual reality benders do. He warped for himself that power over molecules? Right, but for him it was "hey look I control the molecules of my world" which is..... matter manipulation. That's the showing. That's how he won. That's it.

DSS on the other side, just like in the past, only showed TK/matter manip when he stopped Mjolnir or created those stone giants. Any indication of reality warping? Not really. So, it's consistent which is enough for me.

Living bomb is the new origin, CC are irrelevant until proven otherwise. How would it be? It took both him and Beyonder to make Kosmos, THE CC being. Now Beyonder is reretconned into being a BEYONDER. So please, do explain to me how this mechanics should work now.

Irrelevant for my point, we're past that already.

Why should I stop with the actual showings? It's right there, in this fight. Maybe Sentry is a reality warper, but he never consciously warped any reality like actual reality benders do. He warped for himself that power over molecules? Right, but for him it was "hey look I control the molecules of my world" which is..... matter manipulation. That's the showing. That's how he won. That's it.

All of his feats are because of his reality warping.

Everything that he did, because that's the ability that he got from the super soldier serum that he ingested.

DSS on the other side, just like in the past, only showed TK/matter manip when he stopped Mjolnir or created those stone giants. Any indication of reality warping? Not really. So, it's consistent which is enough for me.

Can be done via reality warping too.

Living bomb is the new origin, CC are irrelevant until proven otherwise. How would it be? It took both him and Beyonder to make Kosmos, THE CC being. Now Beyonder is reretconned into being a BEYONDER. So please, do explain to me how this mechanics should work now.

It doesn't negate what happened before.

Molecule Man is still a Cosmic Cube being.

Beyonder isn't re-reconnected into being a Beyonder, he is a Cosmic Cube being too.

Irrelevant for my point, we're past that already.

You only focus on one point and ignore the other informations.

@adamtrmm: @realitywarper: I'm going to sort of agree/disagree with both of you here to an extent. I think it probably is proper to still call Molecule Man a cosmic cube being now, in the sense that in Hickman's story he still gained his power from the Beyonders who were the source of the cubes. But, as a bomb that can destroy a universe, Owen is far beyond the level of power of a normal cosmic cube which traditionally have a more limited scope. For instance Shaper of Worlds is usually described as being omnipotent only within a few miles radius of himself.

So, perhaps with the new Hickman re-interpretation of Molecule Man, we will have to start seeing cosmic cubes as having very varied levels of power. This may also fit in with the idea that came in sometimes during the 90s, I believe it was, that cubes can be burnt out and run out of power. So maybe a cube can be filled with different amounts of power.

This could help explain the different power levels between some of the cubes, and also between the various sentient cubes of the Shaper of Worlds, Kubik, Beyonder (now maybe not really a cube but a baby member of the Beyonders), and Owen.

I agree with this.

And we knows that the Cosmic Cube beings have a self-evolving potential as Owen power is far above the other Cosmic Cube beings.

Gallery

Sentry stands no Chance

@mazeraiii:

Loebforce,nuff said,and Loeb run on Rulk is non-canon. ^_^

This is bullshit. All of it hasn't been retcon'd and happened in Earth 616. What the hell are you talking about?

@realitywarper said:

@owie said:

@adamtrmm: @realitywarper: I'm going to sort of agree/disagree with both of you here to an extent. I think it probably is proper to still call Molecule Man a cosmic cube being now, in the sense that in Hickman's story he still gained his power from the Beyonders who were the source of the cubes. But, as a bomb that can destroy a universe, Owen is far beyond the level of power of a normal cosmic cube which traditionally have a more limited scope. For instance Shaper of Worlds is usually described as being omnipotent only within a few miles radius of himself.

So, perhaps with the new Hickman re-interpretation of Molecule Man, we will have to start seeing cosmic cubes as having very varied levels of power. This may also fit in with the idea that came in sometimes during the 90s, I believe it was, that cubes can be burnt out and run out of power. So maybe a cube can be filled with different amounts of power.

This could help explain the different power levels between some of the cubes, and also between the various sentient cubes of the Shaper of Worlds, Kubik, Beyonder (now maybe not really a cube but a baby member of the Beyonders), and Owen.

I agree with this.

And we knows that the Cosmic Cube beings have a self-evolving potential as Owen power is far above the other Cosmic Cube beings.

Gallery

Yes, I think the self-evolving thing fits with the rest of it well.

Although as I think about it perhaps we need a new term to differentiate the current Incursion version of Owen from the previous interpretation of his powers. Maybe Universal Bomb MM, or Cosmic Bomb MM, which would fit in with the older Cosmic Cube MM.

@owie said:

@realitywarper said:

@owie said:

@adamtrmm: @realitywarper: I'm going to sort of agree/disagree with both of you here to an extent. I think it probably is proper to still call Molecule Man a cosmic cube being now, in the sense that in Hickman's story he still gained his power from the Beyonders who were the source of the cubes. But, as a bomb that can destroy a universe, Owen is far beyond the level of power of a normal cosmic cube which traditionally have a more limited scope. For instance Shaper of Worlds is usually described as being omnipotent only within a few miles radius of himself.

So, perhaps with the new Hickman re-interpretation of Molecule Man, we will have to start seeing cosmic cubes as having very varied levels of power. This may also fit in with the idea that came in sometimes during the 90s, I believe it was, that cubes can be burnt out and run out of power. So maybe a cube can be filled with different amounts of power.

This could help explain the different power levels between some of the cubes, and also between the various sentient cubes of the Shaper of Worlds, Kubik, Beyonder (now maybe not really a cube but a baby member of the Beyonders), and Owen.

I agree with this.

And we knows that the Cosmic Cube beings have a self-evolving potential as Owen power is far above the other Cosmic Cube beings.

Gallery

Yes, I think the self-evolving thing fits with the rest of it well.

Although as I think about it perhaps we need a new term to differentiate the current Incursion version of Owen from the previous interpretation of his powers. Maybe Universal Bomb MM, or Cosmic Bomb MM, which would fit in with the older Cosmic Cube MM.

Yep.

I asked Hickman on his twitter about this.

I hope that he will answer.

@realitywarper:

All of his feats are because of his reality warping.

Everything that he did, because that's the ability that he got from the super soldier serum that he ingested.

And it's supported by a single tweet you've received from Jenkins?

What you don't seem to comprehend is that most people don't question the fact that (Sentry is Void) is reality warper, and that his powers are separated differently. It's like saying that all Legions personalities are reality waprers. They are not. Neither is SENTRY, no Void. Bob maybe is, those personalities are not, until I see an actual feat of either warping reality, no limit fallacy isn't getting the pass.

Can be done via reality warping too.

You know, I can spam this kind of answer upon everything.

It doesn't negate what happened before.

Molecule Man is still a Cosmic Cube being.

Beyonder isn't re-reconnected into being a Beyonder, he is a Cosmic Cube being too.

You just refuse to listen to anything that devalues your interpretations, which no offense, are just interpretations, and sometimes are far from the facts.

Molecule Man is a singularity within the multiverse across all space and time, not a half of a Cosmic Cube. That's what stated, with that I go.

LOL!!!! I just put a damn scan in front of you where Pym talks about "THE CHILD UNIT *BEYONDER* FROM SECRET WARS", and you still so amusingly ignore that? wtf....

You only focus on one point and ignore the other informations.

And you only focus on your own interpretations.

I go with what I have, and what I have is very inconsistent, both lowballed and overhyped. I look for the truth that is in the middle.

Being a universal ticking time bomb doesn't really turn him into any actual power level measuring unit. It simply turns him into a plot device. What you have to remember, is that when he dies, the universe doesn't implode from the release of his energies or whatever jumbo, it simply sets into motion some sort of chain reaction that invokes Incursion. And we know that both universes can be saved from the Incursion.

Point is, Hickman is all plot devices and overblown pseudo-science convolutions, we're talking about the same guy who made Beyonders annihilate the Cosmic hierarchy without seeming casualties and then let Thor, Hyperion and a couple of other clearly inferior to those Cosmics guys now deal with a couple of Beyonders, all without even bothering to explain the mechanics of this awkwardness.

Another thing, when even post retcon MM and Beyonder clashed, it was said to have a trans-multiversal reaction, so I wouldn't say this new origin changes anything within the power level.

@realitywarper:

And it's supported by a single tweet you've received from Jenkins?

Nope.

You don't understand the character, it's ok.

Robert Reynolds was a simple human, the SSS didn't give him the power to become a Golden Guy powered by the Sun nor to become a crazy guy powered by Negative Energies but the power to reshape the reality, even his reality.

What you don't seem to comprehend is that most people don't question the fact that (Sentry is Void) is reality warper, and that his powers are separated differently. It's like saying that all Legions personalities are reality waprers. They are not. Neither is SENTRY, no Void. Bob maybe is, those personalities are not, until I see an actual feat of either warping reality, no limit fallacy isn't getting the pass.

The point is that THEY AREN'T ALTERNATE PERSONALITY.

There is enough informations on internet about schizophrenia and I explained that to you already.

You really understand nothing...

You know, I can spam this kind of answer upon everything.

Do you train at being boring or it's natural ?

You just refuse to listen to anything that devalues your interpretations, which no offense, are just interpretations, and sometimes are far from the facts.

This happened BEFORE Hickman's run.

Molecule Man is a singularity within the multiverse across all space and time, not a half of a Cosmic Cube. That's what stated, with that I go.

He can be both.

LOL!!!! I just put a damn scan in front of you where Pym talks about "THE CHILD UNIT *BEYONDER* FROM SECRET WARS", and you still so amusingly ignore that? wtf....

And the child unit "DIED"... Before the Cosmic Cube retcon...

And you only focus on your own interpretations.

I go with what I have, and what I have is very inconsistent, both lowballed and overhyped. I look for the truth that is in the middle.

You lacks of informations.

Death seed sentry solos

I think the mechanics of it aren't clear yet. Certainly beforehand, it seemed like the planets hitting each other is what caused the actual destruction of the universes. I think you're saying that MM's deaths only start the chain of events that leads to the Incursion. But my feeling from the last New Avengers issue was in fact that it is MM's energies that somehow directly causes the destruction of the universes.

He says, "My origin...was the charging of a bomb...now I am terminal, all of me, and when I die, I'll take my universe with me...They want to see what happens when we all go off at once."

This sounds to me pretty much like he is the causal agent for the destruction itself. For him to just be the thing that starts the chain of events, I think he would have used a different word than "bomb."

What specifically did you see in the story to make it seem like he is only starting, rather than ending, the Incursion process?

Anyway I would say that it does imply his power level is higher than recently seen, if the charging of the bomb--his original atomic accident--is what provides him with the energies to create the Incursion. Even if it is not his energy that destroys the universe directly, and it is his energy that pushes his universe into phase with another one, that is still beyond a normal cosmic cube's power level. So his power must be increased either way.

(As I've said in other posts, the cosmic-cube-retcon MM/Beyonder-Kosmos battle did certainly have effects throughout the universe and in other universes and other times. That's his high point for power, post-cube retcon. But since then he's also been controlled by the Puppet Master, been beaten by Aron the Watcher, and so on. Clearly far less than multiversal power.)

Regardless, I agree there is ambiguity that will hopefully be cleared up. I assume that the reason Incursions can be stopped by destroying the world is that they also happen to destroy Molecule Man on that world, slightly before he goes critical.

The Thor/Hyperion thing was, granted, totally ridiculous.

@realitywarper: you are being a hypocrite because you say what batman and spidey did is pis since they are not that powerful but again you say sentry beating mm is not pis yet he is just high herald to low skyfather level.

It took place is 616 reality. At least the watcher instance.

There is a small story under Loeb where Rulk and Hulk are send to the past to assemble a team by Grandmaster and The Collector.

That's about it. Nothing about his other instance being a part of alternate reality has ever been mentioned, to the best of my knowledge. Wouldn't make sense either because the death of A-bomb that happened in the hands of Rulk was clearly referred to in more than one story in that time period.

Sentry the Weakling gets curbstomped.

Sentry is above Cosmic Cube Molecule Man whom is above Cosmic Cube beings.

Please reply to me with more 2 cents comments. I appreciate.

You don't make the difference between a character created to be super-powerful like Sentry and one human and a metahuman at low-levels, stop reading comics then.

Ah ok ^^

I wasn't sure about this anyway. :)

@realitywarper: one highshowing does not make a character their level get so stop screaming about 1 high showing and claim that he wins its against the rules BTW

"Sentry is all hype,no power"

"Shows power"

"People cry PIS"

I don't care.

The depiction of his power-level is very clear.

I'm not screaming.

You are whinning and trying to find excuses to not accept the feat.

@realitywarper: i accept that feat but 1 highshowing cannot be used to gauge a beings powerlevel i can easily say he is less than thor in powerlevel because of his lowshowings.

It can.

Sentry overpowered Owen easily.

@realitywarper: what about thor killing him

He let Thor kill him.

He lowered his durability and let him hit.

@rpgesus: He didn't know how to control his powers that's why he died 3 times but he came back in the next panel

And the fact he came back proves he has the power he didn't come out of nowhere and he can survive with half of his face missing

Loki D thats all i have to say

@parichithayerakala: He also blitzed Thor top another solar system in seconds

That speed will be very hard to fight against

@realitywarper:

Nope.

You don't understand the character, it's ok.

Robert Reynolds was a simple human, the SSS didn't give him the power to become a Golden Guy powered by the Sun nor to become a crazy guy powered by Negative Energies but the power to reshape the reality, even his reality.

Who cares? His simpleton mind split this power into a generic Superman-esque superhero, and it's antithesis, which was his power incarnate and unleashed with no boundaries (Void). That's why it took over during Siege. His reality warping ends right here.

That's his ultimate story, that's the character until DSS.

The point is that THEY AREN'T ALTERNATE PERSONALITY.

There is enough informations on internet about schizophrenia and I explained that to you already.

You really understand nothing...

See that's your problem, you think you will throw allover people your overblown interpretations and expect anybody to accept them wholeheartedly. That's funny, especially for somebody who not once has ignored direct evidence to support his agendas.

The one who knows it all.

Do you train at being boring or it's natural ?

Better than being a clown still.

This happened BEFORE Hickman's run.

Hickman's run sets the new canon, retcon meaning it RETROACTIVELY changes everything.

He can be both.

Doubt that. These origins have nothing in common beside the Beyonders connection. The semantic explanation behind the factual mechanics are plain different until proven otherwise.

And the child unit "DIED"... Before the Cosmic Cube retcon...

And you only focus on your own interpretations.

I go with what I have, and what I have is very inconsistent, both lowballed and overhyped. I look for the truth that is in the middle.

You lacks of informations.

He can't be both, it doesn't make any sense.

Yeah unlike you who just ignores certain information.

Nah, after the very first murder of a MM, Doom why nothing has happened and "our" MM stated that it will, during the Incursion, whenever it comes. See, that's what I call Hickman's convolutions lol Like you said, the mechanics are beyond unclear.

But he's the bomb, just not the way we accustomed to think of the term. Again, nothing happened to that universes where they were killed until Incursions. That's my understanding, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

When the kill a MM they just get vaporized, not implode or anything like this. And once again, we know that Incursions not really destroy the universe, only set into motion the device to make it happen. Either of the Earth can be destroyed thus saving both universe, after freeing the space and regulating those space/time relations that were fractured.

I wouldn't say it has anything to with his power level, again, it only turns him into a cogwheel with this unknown mechanism, which doesn't necessarily kills this universe.

I guess that's all free for interpretation.

@adamtrmm: Listen, you just don't understand.

Whatever the fuk you said <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Whatever you will say<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You can't deny this.

It doesn't matter that the rules specifically state, and I quote, "For example, one time feats,....powers/abilities that haven't been used in a long time(but haven't been specifically removed) SHOULD be weighed against REGULAR appearances and displays of abilities. DON'T JUST USE A CHARACTER'S BEST SHOWINGS TO DETERMINE WHAT THEY CAN DO.......".--Battle Forum Rules 2.0

The rules are still<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You don't understand, do you understand?

Stop riding Sentry's dick .
Pre Retcon Beyonder would solo , and so will PR MM .
Let alone both of them .

Who cares? His simpleton mind split this power into a generic Superman-esque superhero, and it's antithesis, which was his power incarnate and unleashed with no boundaries (Void). That's why it took over during Siege. His reality warping ends right here.

That's his ultimate story, that's the character until DSS.

<<< You are trying here to make your own definition of Robert's mental issues. That's not how it works.

See that's your problem, you think you will throw allover people your overblown interpretations and expect anybody to accept them wholeheartedly. That's funny, especially for somebody who not once has ignored direct evidence to support his agendas.

The one who knows it all.

<<< There is nothing to interpretate as the character as been established the way I described.

Hickman's run sets the new canon, retcon meaning it RETROACTIVELY changes everything.

<<< And it completes what Hickman said. He didn't canceled the Cosmic Cube status..

Doubt that. These origins have nothing in common beside the Beyonders connection. The semantic explanation behind the factual mechanics are plain different until proven otherwise.

<<< What makes you think that you can't set-up a Cosmic Cube as a bomb ? They can do everything that they want.

He can't be both, it doesn't make any sense.

<<< It is explained that the Beyonder retconned his own origins several times.

The Beyonder tried to reincanarte himself as a child during Secret Wars I and became a Cosmic Cube being in Secret Wars III

Yeah unlike you who just ignores certain information.

I don't.

@realitywarper: Maybe i missed the answer but MM is a bomb trigger that destroys a universe when he dies. Doesn't that mean he is no longer part of a cosmic cube? Didn't the Beyonders call The Beyonder a baby or child? Did they ever refer to him as a cosmic cube?

@justiceway: This is Post Retcon Beyonder/MM