I wish all a Happy New Year and to get the new year started, this is one of my series of planned ideas for threads!
RULES!
Morals OFF
Bloodlust ON
No prep
This is Pre-Rebirth Jackie
Both at full power
Anything goes
Takes place here:
WHO WINS?
I always wondered who would win and what would a crossover look like! Both favorites of mine and both awesome characters!
And who also agrees that a Challenge a Viner match between @reikai (Death) and @wyldsong (The Darkness) debating for these two respective characters would be epic?!!
I haven't read much of the Darkness. Only got a bit from the Trinity event. Does he still lose his powers in sunlight? Never heard of him spawning things in peoples bodies.
Also, I don't know if "Full Power" counts for anything, since we never see Death at full power once the 7th Seal was broken. Going by what the Lord of Bones stated though, who controls the entirety of the Kingdom of the Dead, that if the 7th seal had been broken, then even he would have to bend knee to Death's will.
I'm still hoping for a Darksiders 3, or at least some more books explaining what's going on.
I haven't read much of the Darkness. Only got a bit from the Trinity event. Does he still lose his powers in sunlight? Never heard of him spawning things in peoples bodies.
Also, I don't know if "Full Power" counts for anything, since we never see Death at full power once the 7th Seal was broken. Going by what the Lord of Bones stated though, who controls the entirety of the Kingdom of the Dead, that if the 7th seal had been broken, then even he would have to bend knee to Death's will.
I'm still hoping for a Darksiders 3, or at least some more books explaining what's going on.
@cadencev2: Well then, unless we get another book that has Death single-handedly killing Lucifer, Samael and the Charred Council who maintains the balance of the universe, then I don't see how this could be a fight if Jackie can reshape the cosmos.
Unless he could only do that Post-Rebirth. Again, not too familiar with The Darkness.
@cadencev2: Well then, unless we get another book that has Death single-handedly killing Lucifer, Samael and the Charred Council who maintains the balance of the universe, then I don't see how this could be a fight if Jackie can reshape the cosmos.
Unless he could only do that Post-Rebirth. Again, not too familiar with The Darkness.
OP said full powered, that is Full Powered Jackie/Darkness, universal level.
@cadencev2: It says Full-Power Pre-Rebirth Jackie. So I would have to see if he could do that Before Rebirth or After Rebirth. If he couldn't do it PR, then we need to see what he could do. If he's at cosmic-level PR, then I don't see a reason for this.
@cadencev2: It says Full-Power Pre-Rebirth Jackie. So I would have to see if he could do that Before Rebirth or After Rebirth. If he couldn't do it PR, then we need to see what he could do. If he's at cosmic-level PR, then I don't see a reason for this.
That makes no sense. To me anyway. Full Power means full power, and by saying Full pwer Rebirth means nothing to me. Im not much of a Darkness reader at all and only know of Darkness at full power being Universal Level. That is the only full power I know of, other than that its simply average Darkness.
Interesting. Very interesting........ Can Death tank being assaulted from within by hundreds of darkness demons eating his organs?
I would LOVE to see that CAV match though! Call me out if you make it!
Good question, personally I think he can due to being a force of death and he`s practically unkillable in a sense also his Reaper Form spawns its own form of darkness energy which guards him.
I haven't read much of the Darkness. Only got a bit from the Trinity event. Does he still lose his powers in sunlight? Never heard of him spawning things in peoples bodies.
Also, I don't know if "Full Power" counts for anything, since we never see Death at full power once the 7th Seal was broken. Going by what the Lord of Bones stated though, who controls the entirety of the Kingdom of the Dead, that if the 7th seal had been broken, then even he would have to bend knee to Death's will.
I'm still hoping for a Darksiders 3, or at least some more books explaining what's going on.
Death has all of his abilities/perks/weapons and etc from all canon sources, I don`t mean Death as in having his power untapped when the 7th seal is broken.
@cadencev2: It says Full-Power Pre-Rebirth Jackie. So I would have to see if he could do that Before Rebirth or After Rebirth. If he couldn't do it PR, then we need to see what he could do. If he's at cosmic-level PR, then I don't see a reason for this.
That makes no sense. To me anyway. Full Power means full power, and by saying Full pwer Rebirth means nothing to me. Im not much of a Darkness reader at all and only know of Darkness at full power being Universal Level. That is the only full power I know of, other than that its simply average Darkness.
The Darkness is specifically Pre-Rebirth which means it will not be in its state of having no Avatar and will not be an abstract level force it is restrained by Jackie when I mean full power I am referring to having all of his power at the dead end of night time which means its very dark outside and Jackie is at his maximum that is when Jackie is at his peak in power when we go by standard which is what I am referring to.
@godtriggerhulk: I'm aware. But I can't see them doing it Multi-Player. That just ruins the experience. And I don't think it'd involve playing as Strife. It'd feel too much like Devil May Cry, since they'd end up having to give Strife some kind of melee weapon to go with his handguns. It would probably involve Fury, and trying to figure out how to get her whip to work right is no easy task.
I haven't read much of the Darkness. Only got a bit from the Trinity event. Does he still lose his powers in sunlight? Never heard of him spawning things in peoples bodies.
Also, I don't know if "Full Power" counts for anything, since we never see Death at full power once the 7th Seal was broken. Going by what the Lord of Bones stated though, who controls the entirety of the Kingdom of the Dead, that if the 7th seal had been broken, then even he would have to bend knee to Death's will.
I'm still hoping for a Darksiders 3, or at least some more books explaining what's going on.
The universe remaking thing that was brought up is true, but that was a one time event, under a specific set of circumstances, but did happen. There was also a future version of Jackie that was destroying worlds and blotting out the sun, but it seems neon is just meaning Jackie gets to operate as if there were no lights (he is more light resistant than when he started, and can still do things under the light of the sun, but he can't access his armor/strength/regen and can't summon his darkness creations under direct sunlight, but could do it in nearby areas of darkness). As for the spawning bit, basically he can manipulate the Darkness that is inside everything and everyone for a variety of effects.
@neongamewave: Gotcha on the power level bit. Just as an fyi, prior to the end of the last arc (and subsequently, the end of the Darkness series for a bit), Jackie regained his darkness half, and the dopple-Jackie isn't running around free anymore. To be honest, post-Rebirth, he hasn't shown himself to be anymore powerful than pre-Rebirth, as the majority of the rebirth story was dopple-Jackie, and the only thing he showed over Jackie power wise was the ability to operate under the full light of the sun. With the Darkness Falls mini-series coming soon, we'll see if there are any big changes, but I don't think Jackie will get the chance to really explore just what he has become before his eventual end.
As for the battle here, hmmm...I need to see some gameplay vids of Death...as for Death full power, are you talking a maxed out character (at which point a build would need to be picked from what I am reading), or are you allowing him access to all of the skills?
As for trying to set up a CaV between me reikai (if they want to do it)...talk to me after January 8th, and we'll see=)
@wyldsong: He did say all of his equipment and abilities acquired. All the Lore driven ones I would say. Possessed Weapons rely too much on player input to really have any meaning since their abilities are determined by what the player sacrifices to give them.
As for a CAV, would have to wait. Just recently renewed my B&N membership. Getting some coin soon, then I can get the Darksiders comic and novel and get all the current available info.
To be honest, still on the fence as to whether or not I want to try my hand at a CaV. But, if I am going to do it, Jackie would be a good start for me. Let me know if it is something you want to do after you are caught up, and we'll see what we can do=)
I haven't read much of the Darkness. Only got a bit from the Trinity event. Does he still lose his powers in sunlight? Never heard of him spawning things in peoples bodies.
Also, I don't know if "Full Power" counts for anything, since we never see Death at full power once the 7th Seal was broken. Going by what the Lord of Bones stated though, who controls the entirety of the Kingdom of the Dead, that if the 7th seal had been broken, then even he would have to bend knee to Death's will.
I'm still hoping for a Darksiders 3, or at least some more books explaining what's going on.
The universe remaking thing that was brought up is true, but that was a one time event, under a specific set of circumstances, but did happen. There was also a future version of Jackie that was destroying worlds and blotting out the sun, but it seems neon is just meaning Jackie gets to operate as if there were no lights (he is more light resistant than when he started, and can still do things under the light of the sun, but he can't access his armor/strength/regen and can't summon his darkness creations under direct sunlight, but could do it in nearby areas of darkness). As for the spawning bit, basically he can manipulate the Darkness that is inside everything and everyone for a variety of effects.
@neongamewave: Gotcha on the power level bit. Just as an fyi, prior to the end of the last arc (and subsequently, the end of the Darkness series for a bit), Jackie regained his darkness half, and the dopple-Jackie isn't running around free anymore. To be honest, post-Rebirth, he hasn't shown himself to be anymore powerful than pre-Rebirth, as the majority of the rebirth story was dopple-Jackie, and the only thing he showed over Jackie power wise was the ability to operate under the full light of the sun. With the Darkness Falls mini-series coming soon, we'll see if there are any big changes, but I don't think Jackie will get the chance to really explore just what he has become before his eventual end.
Cool and thanks for the info, I really should start catching up with The Darkness more.
As for the battle here, hmmm...I need to see some gameplay vids of Death...as for Death full power, are you talking a maxed out character (at which point a build would need to be picked from what I am reading), or are you allowing him access to all of the skills?
Pretty much all of Death`s prime powers and key items are allowed, things that would stem from the Lore itself.
As for trying to set up a CaV between me reikai (if they want to do it)...talk to me after January 8th, and we'll see=)
@neongamewave: If it's Jackie as we know him, then I'm not certainly how well he'd perform. He's quite tough and the Darkness gives him quite the healing factor. Though overall the concept isn't that different from Absalom's once he became Corruption. Essentially the darkness and twisted evil that rots and destroys all things.
As we've seen, Corruption spread across multiple worlds and even affects the minds of others, corrupting them with its influence and changing landscapes. With control over the Well of Souls through the Tree of Life, Absalom could spread Corruption across all of creation through the portals.
Absalom was immensely strong, could generate blast waves with his waraxe, Absolution, as well as tendrils of Corruptions that could ensnare targets and attack others. Strong enough to block blows from Death's scythes. Absalom could even increase his size and mass to a degree, increasing his strength and power.
In that sense he's not much different from The Darkness.
@reikai: That is an excellent point and I agree to a degree that the principle of power in regards to having control of darkness is quite similar but I think The Darkness itself, the actual entity is in its own way different considering it manipulates darkness to the imagination and will of its host Jackie its pretty much like an anti-hero Green Lantern ring also Jackie`s power pretty much varies.
@neongamewave: It does, Jackie can pretty much form about anything he wants from the Darkness. Its strength really depends on him. While Absalom doesn't so much create as corrupt and alter other things with his power, whether they be living flesh or animated stone. Even Angels and Demons weren't immune to the Corruption.
Archon Lucien himself was infested with corruption, if through his own arrogant believe that He Alone is the purest of all the Angels. That drove him to madness and to corruption and it afflicted him. Corruption even has regenerative effects. Such as when Death removed Lucien's wins, the Corruption was forming replacements that looked more like bone and sinew than his former feathered glory.
They are similar, but not identical. But it does show that Death has some experience in dealing with that kind of ability and phenomena.
@neongamewave: It does, Jackie can pretty much form about anything he wants from the Darkness. Its strength really depends on him. While Absalom doesn't so much create as corrupt and alter other things with his power, whether they be living flesh or animated stone. Even Angels and Demons weren't immune to the Corruption.
Archon Lucien himself was infested with corruption, if through his own arrogant believe that He Alone is the purest of all the Angels. That drove him to madness and to corruption and it afflicted him. Corruption even has regenerative effects. Such as when Death removed Lucien's wins, the Corruption was forming replacements that looked more like bone and sinew than his former feathered glory.
They are similar, but not identical. But it does show that Death has some experience in dealing with that kind of ability and phenomena.
Good point and I agree, Absalom with the Corruption was on the top-tier of the food chain and he could in a broad sense be considered a world ending threat that would easily transition as well as transcend into a universe/existence ending one, even Death knew that but what makes Death so awesome, cool and such a great interpretation of death itself which could be interpreted as its own kind of phenomena is the fact that as Death he denied it (The Corruption) any power over him and he relinquished it by the laws of death that in reality consumes all things especially as an idea in and out of itself.
Do you think Jackie`s lethal technique of being able to manipulate darkness inside of a being work to his advantage against Death? Would it prove fatal to Death, for example can Jackie casually just create darklings, dragons and any type of darkly spawned creature inside of Death`s skull or body as he would try to have him rendered dead, powerless or koed would it work? I don`t really think so personally but what is your thoughts on that interesting perspective or question?
@neongamewave: I'm not sure if he could or not. Absalom is definitely a universal threat, but not really a buster. Corruption takes him and it didn't start to really infest or change the Forgelands until right around the time Abaddon broke six of the seven seals and tried a sneak-attack against Hell's armies on Earth, which is roughly 100yrs before Death's journey in DS2.
Not only that, but Death killed Absom some thousands of years earlier. So the Corruption does take time to work and afflict whole worlds. Though with the Well of Souls and Tree of Life, it could work more quickly. The only thing keeping the Corruption at bay was Balance that maintained equality between Creation and Destruction.
Perhaps what protected Death from affliction by Corruption was also his belief in the Balance. Without it there'd be nothing. He knows that destruction is as necessary as creation. As the rider of Death, he probably knows that better than anyone. Those he reaps are channeled through the Well into the Dead Kingdom, and when ready they may be reborn into new life back through the Well.
So I can't say whether or not Jackie can spawn things from inside Death's body, or if Death's very nature and his own magic and necromantic abilities would protect against that. Heck even after the Amulet bearing the souls of the entire race of Nephilim was embedded in his chest and their wailing souls continually assaulted his psyche, it didn't seem to affect him one bit. He remained solid.
Unlike the Crowfather who was driven insane by them. And we saw the effects of this at the start of the game when you see the state of the Crowfather's realm, more twisted and broken, entire cliffs and glaciers breaking. You could even hear his mad rambling screams, cries and laughter in the distance. Though to be fair the Crowfather was in possession of it for quite some time.
So I'd say it's a gamble as to whether or not Jackie could directly affect him like that. Death has taken shots from pretty much every force you can think of. Demonic powers, fire and lightning, other undead forces like Bone Giants and Ice giants, as well as the former Ruler of the Dead kingdom, Argul. Not to mention more heavenly powers like from the Rod of Arafel, and being TK'd and blasted around by Samael.
Do you think Jackie`s lethal technique of being able to manipulate darkness inside of a being work to his advantage against Death? Would it prove fatal to Death, for example can Jackie casually just create darklings, dragons and any type of darkly spawned creature inside of Death`s skull or body as he would try to have him rendered dead, powerless or koed would it work? I don`t really think so personally but what is your thoughts on that interesting perspective or question?
Alright, let's throw a few things out here that need to be taken into consideration: The Darkness, while basically evil, is a primordial force of creation. Darkness is in everyone, and everything, and is truly part of the natural order (and is older than the light).
All darkness falls under Jackie's domain, and even minions of the light cannot resist having it manipulated:
Think of Jackie as less like Green Lantern, and more like a molecular manipulator of something that is in us all. The only person that could resist having it manipulated is Aram the Witch King, and that is only because he used to be the host for the Darkness, and knows it's secrets like no other (and whatever rituals he performed causes the Darkness to flee from his presence). So whatever Jackie does, it's not like a corruption type thing that infects, it's him using a power of creation on something that is naturally a part of us all all the down to the molecular level if he so chooses. He also doesn't have to just create creatures on the inside, he could mess with bodily systems in any number of ways. There is a lot of darkness in the body, and a lot Jackie could do with it.
@wyldsong: If we think of it like that, it makes it even more suspect that it'd even work on Death. Nephilim were not part of the creation of God. The Creator did not give rise to them as he did with Angels, Man and the other beings across the universe.
The Firstborn, Absalom, was created by Lilith through a method that's completely unknown to anyone. Even Lilith does not know what it is anymore because shortly after she created Absalom, the Charred Council stripped her of the means and knowledge of the creation of the Nephilim and cast her into Hell as a demon. Though she is aware that she created the Nephilim, she nor anyone else, knows how the process was done or what was involved. All that anyone had said was that they were made from the mingled dust of Angel and Demon. What that actually means or entails is completely unknown, perhaps even to the Charred Council or even the Creator who charged them with maintaining the Balance.
We know that Corruption is also a primal force from the very beginning to balance Creation, and Absalom became the very incarnation and avatar of Corruption itself which may be attributed to more than just Death killing him and the extinction of the Nephilim. But also all the untold uncountable worlds the Nephilim had destroyed in their conquests, and incalculable number of souls that died because of their bloodlust. All that suffering along with the destruction of the Nephilim had all attributed to Absalom becoming the agent of Corruption.
"Have you ever wondered, Death, why you are untouched while those around you wither and rot in the grip of Corruption? Could it be that you are already blackened by the sin of betrayal? How can you defeat that which seethes in your own heart? You cannot stop me, without forever damning your soul!"
It may have just been a taunt by Absalom to Death, but it did raise the issue of why Corruption couldn't affect him. Perhaps Corruption itself exists as part of the Balance, and Absalom's fury went against its purpose. But that's just speculation.
@wyldsong: If we think of it like that, it makes it even more suspect that it'd even work on Death. Nephilim were not part of the creation of God. The Creator did not give rise to them as he did with Angels, Man and the other beings across the universe.
The Firstborn, Absalom, was created by Lilith through a method that's completely unknown to anyone. Even Lilith does not know what it is anymore because shortly after she created Absalom, the Charred Council stripped her of the means and knowledge of the creation of the Nephilim and cast her into Hell as a demon. Though she is aware that she created the Nephilim, she nor anyone else, knows how the process was done or what was involved. All that anyone had said was that they were made from the mingled dust of Angel and Demon. What that actually means or entails is completely unknown, perhaps even to the Charred Council or even the Creator who charged them with maintaining the Balance.
We know that Corruption is also a primal force from the very beginning to balance Creation, and Absalom became the very incarnation and avatar of Corruption itself which may be attributed to more than just Death killing him and the extinction of the Nephilim. But also all the untold uncountable worlds the Nephilim had destroyed in their conquests, and incalculable number of souls that died because of their bloodlust. All that suffering along with the destruction of the Nephilim had all attributed to Absalom becoming the agent of Corruption.
"Have you ever wondered, Death, why you are untouched while those around you wither and rot in the grip of Corruption? Could it be that you are already blackened by the sin of betrayal? How can you defeat that which seethes in your own heart? You cannot stop me, without forever damning your soul!"
It may have just been a taunt by Absalom to Death, but it did raise the issue of why Corruption couldn't affect him. Perhaps Corruption itself exists as part of the Balance, and Absalom's fury went against its purpose. But that's just speculation.
The Darkness is one of the primordial forces of creation, but it isn't a holy, divine power. God didn't create the Darkness in the Top Cow U, it's just one of those things that has always kind of been...well, maybe not always, since there are the Lovecraftian things that should not be that existed before the Darkness (of which the Darkness is a descendant and has proven to be more powerful than). As well, the Darkness can be made into real things and objects, or can be formless. Jackie's control is such that he has created life that was capable of giving birth, creating water, creating supernatural drugs, creating labyrinths, corrosive substances and so on. Honestly, being a force of creation (and a force more than capable of destruction), I see no reason why it couldn't be manipulated, since that Darkness is already in Death, and it isn't a metaphorical darkness of sin or betrayal, it is a literal darkness that is Jackie's plaything.
See, the Darkness isn't a corruption, and from what I am reading of Absalom's words, Death's own sins and so on seem to make him akin to the Corruption in some manner, which is why he isn't being affected. Sure, it may be a taunt, but then again, it may not be, but the words are what they are. Being akin to the Darkness, has never really stopped Jackie from doing his thing:
The only time he has had issues is when the Darkness was trying to replace him, and even then, he grew to the point where the Darkness really couldn't keep him from it's power anymore (and he eventually goes on to replace the entity).
Sin and corruption doesn't really equate to the Darkness, since it wasn't put there to be any sort of balance to creation, and we are talking the literal darkness here (the dark substance has been called nectoplasm, and is literally in every thing that is dark, even solid objects, so if it is dark/shadow/so on, it is nectoplasm). It just kind of existed, then the light came to be, and the rest is history. The only way I could see this being resisted is if Death had greater control over the darkness, he knew Aram's rituals and had successfully purged himself of the darkness at some point, or if he has a Witchblade in his back pocket.
Though I have to be honest, you make me regret not getting that game last time it was on sale on Steam. I'll have to keep my eyes open, because the lore seems pretty cool for it.
Do you think Jackie`s lethal technique of being able to manipulate darkness inside of a being work to his advantage against Death? Would it prove fatal to Death, for example can Jackie casually just create darklings, dragons and any type of darkly spawned creature inside of Death`s skull or body as he would try to have him rendered dead, powerless or koed would it work? I don`t really think so personally but what is your thoughts on that interesting perspective or question?
Alright, let's throw a few things out here that need to be taken into consideration: The Darkness, while basically evil, is a primordial force of creation. Darkness is in everyone, and everything, and is truly part of the natural order (and is older than the light).
All darkness falls under Jackie's domain, and even minions of the light cannot resist having it manipulated:
Think of Jackie as less like Green Lantern, and more like a molecular manipulator of something that is in us all. The only person that could resist having it manipulated is Aram the Witch King, and that is only because he used to be the host for the Darkness, and knows it's secrets like no other (and whatever rituals he performed causes the Darkness to flee from his presence). So whatever Jackie does, it's not like a corruption type thing that infects, it's him using a power of creation on something that is naturally a part of us all all the down to the molecular level if he so chooses. He also doesn't have to just create creatures on the inside, he could mess with bodily systems in any number of ways. There is a lot of darkness in the body, and a lot Jackie could do with it.
He`s similar to a Green Lantern in the sense of having dominance over the creative output in the way he chooses to create or spawn his darkness abilities and I agree he`s more of a molecular manipulator when he wants to get very gritty or dirty in how he decides to execute his foes but the thing is the ability itself mostly has shown to specialize in taking down fodder such as Angelus` henchmen, demonic entities, Aphrodite IV and The Sovereign but it doesn`t add up to being able to consistently constitute for the same exact damage or results against more powerful tiers that outbalance things. Reasons below will explain and extrapolate for the following:
1. Death is more durable and unconventional then those who fell victim to that mechanic.
2. Death`s Reaper Form is born from a form of mysticism and its rooted in great dark magic it should shield him as its greatly embedded into a spectral form.
3. Death has many items that could deny, decline or deduct Jackie himself in which I will explain below.
A major help will be Death`s ability called the Soul Splitter this ability literally splits his soul into two beings and aspects they both can easily combat The Darkness also I doubt The Darkness` usual tricks would be able to work efficiently once Death is in a light incorporeal soul form that is practically and basically inhabitable as well as very resistant to damage even if it is magical but on the other hand to brute force that is not rooted in great or ancient magic it would be an immunity especially since Death is rendered bound into an invulnerable stone form that The Darkness has no hope in harming and the souls themselves are on a different plane of existence.
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I wouldn`t mess with Death either way....
Even as powerful as Samael is especially as a whole being he still wouldn`t underestimate Death or even his brother War`s unlocked potentials which is their transformative evolution, Death`s being the Reaper Form.
Focus your anger. A great rage stirs within you, clawing to get out. You MUST release it. Or a puppet you'll remain. – Samael
The Horseman is broken, but there is still much power in him. For a moment I saw... one who would stand alone against the Destroyer's army.
– Samael on War's Chaos Form
Also this is The Destroyer
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Death`s Reaper Form >>>>>War`s Chaos Form.
Samael was extraordinarily powerful himself being a hell lord basically the Mephisto of the Darksiders universe only more powerful I would say.....
@neongamewave: I'm not sure if he could or not. Absalom is definitely a universal threat, but not really a buster. Corruption takes him and it didn't start to really infest or change the Forgelands until right around the time Abaddon broke six of the seven seals and tried a sneak-attack against Hell's armies on Earth, which is roughly 100yrs before Death's journey in DS2.
Not only that, but Death killed Absom some thousands of years earlier. So the Corruption does take time to work and afflict whole worlds. Though with the Well of Souls and Tree of Life, it could work more quickly. The only thing keeping the Corruption at bay was Balance that maintained equality between Creation and Destruction.
Perhaps what protected Death from affliction by Corruption was also his belief in the Balance. Without it there'd be nothing. He knows that destruction is as necessary as creation. As the rider of Death, he probably knows that better than anyone. Those he reaps are channeled through the Well into the Dead Kingdom, and when ready they may be reborn into new life back through the Well.
So I can't say whether or not Jackie can spawn things from inside Death's body, or if Death's very nature and his own magic and necromantic abilities would protect against that. Heck even after the Amulet bearing the souls of the entire race of Nephilim was embedded in his chest and their wailing souls continually assaulted his psyche, it didn't seem to affect him one bit. He remained solid.
Unlike the Crowfather who was driven insane by them. And we saw the effects of this at the start of the game when you see the state of the Crowfather's realm, more twisted and broken, entire cliffs and glaciers breaking. You could even hear his mad rambling screams, cries and laughter in the distance. Though to be fair the Crowfather was in possession of it for quite some time.
So I'd say it's a gamble as to whether or not Jackie could directly affect him like that. Death has taken shots from pretty much every force you can think of. Demonic powers, fire and lightning, other undead forces like Bone Giants and Ice giants, as well as the former Ruler of the Dead kingdom, Argul. Not to mention more heavenly powers like from the Rod of Arafel, and being TK'd and blasted around by Samael.
Death is just one tough SOB.
That is a sound and really insightful point but I do believe that even corrupters and erasers can interchange or be of the same danger as those who simply destroy, eradicate or bust things. At peak power he wouldn`t be considered as a simple Parasite similar to someone like Parallax instead he would qualify as a universal buster far exceeding normal mechanics since the dynamics change eventually.
I agree.
That is a good point but I think Death`s own power factored in heavily as well especially being the most powerful of the Horseman, the most oldest and the most feared across the entire universe what he stands for speaks for itself.
That is true although that is more of a mind/mental feat than a physical one, however its still very impressive it would work for top-tier telepaths but Death has the Soul Splitter which would prevent and negate Jackie`s ability to manipulate one`s physiology also Death is the literal embodiment of Death the Charred Council (Cosmic beings essentially of great order), Death Lords and even Angelic Powers know this there are even times throughout the game questioning on if Death can actually die since he brings death itself to all and to any. Death can also counter it through having the greater durability of those Jackie performed it successfully on no matter how many times and ways that Jackie utilizes it doesn`t matter since he can`t put Death down or put him down relying on raw damage input as well as output due to the fact that Death ignores and holds against in many instances regarding raw damage that he casually tanks in different forms and formats.
I agree and the fact that the Amulet itself holds a great form of magic makes Death`s feat of resisting as well as ignoring its effects altogether that more impressive since magic on many occassions (Darksiders included) in many universes consistently shows its effects of being able to bypass raw durability or regeneration since its considered to be a form of reality manipulation just by bending physics and certain laws also the magic within the Darksiders universe is really powerful the ones who possess magic are powerful themselves and ancient the souls being under a form of necro affiliation that is used to interlink their souls to the item itself and there are over easily at least millions of souls along with ancient knowledge.
I understand your perspective and respect it but personally I don`t see it working even if it manages to work somehow I don`t think it would be as efficient as hoped even by Jackie`s standards and Death`s not only taken the heat from elemental powers, demonic powers and angelic powers but also from dark ancient magic from users of old and ancient who have been around for a long, long time. They employ and utilize the magic with their knowledge which magic is ultimately questioned on depending on the level of skill and how the skill operates for it to perform a certain way even dark magic is nothing to Death and Death has forms of magic also which should even allow him to damage Jackie further, another point is Death has been able to kill, banish and dismiss undead beings. Death is even powerful enough to defeat Constructs which are souls being embodied into lower forms his weapons still harm and allow them to remain under the laws of death.
@reikai: well full power PR Jackie would be the Absolute Darkness that appeared in Darkness #75 he enslaved the entire earth by blocking out the sun and stood one equal terms with that version of the Angelus who one-shotted a planet in that very issue. Death is going to be in trouble if he doesn't have the feats to compete.
@reikai: well full power PR Jackie would be the Absolute Darkness that appeared in Darkness #75 he enslaved the entire earth by blocking out the sun and stood one equal terms with that version of the Angelus who one-shotted a planet in that very issue. Death is going to be in trouble if he doesn't have the feats to compete.
Wasn`t that a future incarnation or alternative version of Jackie though? Also, Jackie is at standard but has full power which means full access due to it being extremely dark outside that`s a fully powered Jackie by standard and Death has defeated or encountered beings who operate on a world ending scale so I`m pretty sure he could prove his power against Jackie even in that scenario.
@strider92: @neongamewave: There is one thing I mentioned before, but also it's not that Death can't be killed as he's not the Abstract Death, but a force granted great power by the Council in exchange for his services.
Death had been close to being killed when he was shot with Black Mercy, a Grand Abomination that auto-kills whomever is shot by it. The only reason he survived was due to his great magic and power, which had been drained to almost nothing from that one shot. A 2nd shot with it would've killed him, if it hadn't been for Azrael using illusions to distract Hadrimon just long enough for Death to regain enough strength to run him through.
Perhaps one contributing factor to his survival was the fact he was responsible for the creation of the Grand Abominations to begin with.
@reikai: well full power PR Jackie would be the Absolute Darkness that appeared in Darkness #75 he enslaved the entire earth by blocking out the sun and stood one equal terms with that version of the Angelus who one-shotted a planet in that very issue. Death is going to be in trouble if he doesn't have the feats to compete.
Wasn`t that a future incarnation or alternative version of Jackie though? Also, Jackie is at standard but has full power which means full access due to it being extremely dark outside that`s a fully powered Jackie by standard and Death has defeated or encountered beings who operate on a world ending scale so I`m pretty sure he could prove his power against Jackie even in that scenario.
Prior to Rebirth (issue 101), Jackie was proven to resist to have his power stripped/weakened by the main Darkness entity, and proved powerful enough to face it, and kill it with a blade forged from stars (the sun dagger). He is technically now the Darkness entity itself, so some arguments could be made, BUT he has not quite explored what that means for him and the full measure of his power, so I will not go there.
As for durability, and the soul bit...the Darkness is more than capable of harming souls:
Anything killed by the Darkness, their soul ends up in the Darkness' dimension. Jackie had to tear his way through there to get to the main entity, and he harmed plenty of trapped souls along the way. The Darkness does play in souls, and has had dominion over quite a few. Not to mention even the Darkness' own child has been shown to affect spectral forms and kill ghosts (Witchblade).
And while taking heat from elemental, demonic and other powers that have been around for a long time is one thing, it is a far cry from being immune, and is still quite a different thing than having an abstract play with your insides, and simply using something that is already a part of you. Resisting different forms of magic is one thing, resisting an abstract playing with something in it's domain is another, and the darkness inside qualifies as its domain. To resist the darkness has always taken something very specific and detailed (like rituals, an artifact that when brought together with others is capable of rewriting all of reality, and so on). Death doesn't qualify in any of those arenas.
The other main issue I see with Death, is if he tries Soul Splitter, he is basically leaving his body, which can be BFR'd, and then what happens to him? It has weight from what I have seen, can be used to hold down pressure plates and such, not much from stopping Jackie from opening a portal beneath it, and sending it to the dark dimension. The Darkness can harm souls, so I don't see that being an issue.
As well, all of Death's tricks are fairly draining to him, and of a limited time, whereas Jackie can keep on going.
I'll even throw out that one of the major writers for the Darkness has been Ron Marz. Marz I have found to be an exceptionally cool guy, because I got him to respond to a question or two for me. Marz has also written quite a bit for DC (Superman, Superboy, Green Lantern, etc). So at first, something I was willing to dismiss because I just hadn't really paid attention to who wrote it was the Superman/Darkness crossover. I reread it the other night, and finally paid attention to who wrote it. Marz knows both characters very well, and while he confirmed that Jackie isn't as strong as pre-52 Superman, he is strong enough to at least put up a fight and draw some blood. Jackie's largest creation also proved capable of overpowering Supes, but alas, it didn't have an answer for his levels of heat vision attacking it from the inside while the sun was rising. So, you can take that as you will, but I find it a very strong case that a man that knows these characters like Marz does have Jackie pegged as being able to affect someone of his durability. Not to mention Jackie could have ended that fight so much faster, but hey, we can't have DC's golden boy getting killed in such a manner=)
Alright, I have to get to studying today, so please forgive me if I don't respond for a bit. I am not trying to be rude, I just have a test to prep for. I do promise to come back and respond to further posts when I get a chance.
To resist the darkness has always taken something very specific and detailed (like rituals, an artifact that when brought together with others is capable of rewriting all of reality, and so on). Death doesn't qualify in any of those arenas.
I would have to argue differently as he was resisting the Corruption, which is a primordial force that existed at the dawn of Creation. Not to also mention that as one of the Four Horsemen, he is decidedly different since they are empowered by the Charred Council, who received their power and authority from the Creator himself (GOD).
And as far as Soul play, Death has been doing that since his inception. His first most notable usage was creating the amulet that would then house the souls of his entire race. Besides himself, War, Fury, Strife and Absalom whose being became part of Corruption. Of course there was also his scythe, Harvester, that he forged himself which takes the souls of its victims. Plus his Necromancy allows him to manipulate, speak with and control both spirits and the dead.
And despite its size, power and housing the billions of souls of mankind, the Wailing Host that prevents any new souls from entering the Well, was simply no match for Death. And there's something to be said for defeating a colossal undead entity in the City of the Dead.
The other main issue I see with Death, is if he tries Soul Splitter, he is basically leaving his body, which can be BFR'd, and then what happens to him? It has weight from what I have seen, can be used to hold down pressure plates and such, not much from stopping Jackie from opening a portal beneath it, and sending it to the dark dimension. The Darkness can harm souls, so I don't see that being an issue.
An ultimately meaningless move. His Main Body becomes indestructible in this state and if his divided essence strays too far from it, he'll just reform back into his main body. Also, Death has Voidwalker which allows him to create portals as well. And with Despair he can effectively ride across dimensions and enter any world he pleases. Which makes a BFR completely pointless since he can exit and go anywhere at his leisure.
Also while Soul Splitter is in use, his dual selves still have access to all his other abilities and equipment besides the Reaper Form.
As well, all of Death's tricks are fairly draining to him, and of a limited time, whereas Jackie can keep on going.
That's by game mechanics. Can say the same for Jackie in The Darkness games. But there's no need for that. And beyond the one time he was briefly knocked out when the Amulet pierced his body at the start of DS2, Death has been running, fighting and butchering his way through four realms, massive armies and sweeping his way towards the Well of Souls without a moments respite. Which would indicate he has tremendous vitality and strength.
And as both the comic and novel indicate, Death can regain his strength rather quickly even when brought to near-death.
Marz knows both characters very well, and while he confirmed that Jackie isn't as strong as pre-52 Superman, he is strong enough to at least put up a fight and draw some blood.
That has less to do with any actual strength he has and more to due with the mystical nature of the Darkness, and Supes being quite vulnerable to magic and other such forces. If Death were to hit Supes with his scythes, chances are Supes would have big gashes across him from the magicy weapons of death-dealin awesomeness.
And as it's already been shown, giant constructs don't deter Death. Hell the largest one he fought was the final boss of the Forgelands, the Guardian. Depicted rather well in the "Death Strikes" Trailer.
"I would have to argue differently as he was resisting the Corruption, which is a primordial force that existed at the dawn of Creation. Not to also mention that as one of the Four Horsemen, he is decidedly different since they are empowered by the Charred Council, who received their power and authority from the Creator himself (GOD)."
And I would argue that by Absalom's own words, Death resisted Corruption due to him already being blackened by sin. That won't protect him from the Darkness, as the darkness is not equal to nor the same as Corruption. There seems to be a very different set of circumstances for his resistance, none of which equate, nor can be attributed to the Darkness. I mean, we want to prove his resistance to such, we either need to see him resist something similar first hand, or prove that Corruption and the Darkness are basically the same thing, which in both instances they are not.
So until it can be proven that he has the full on power to just resist an abstracts power, then Death has a very specific reason he resists corruption, none of which apply to the Darkness: "Have you ever wondered, Death, why you are untouched while those around you wither and rot in the grip of Corruption? Could it be that you are already blackened by the sin of betrayal? How can you defeat that which seethes in your own heart? You cannot stop me, without forever damning your soul!"
That sounds pretty telling to me as to why he was able to resist Corruption, and by those words, it has nothing to do with the ability to resist an abstracts power by active will. And until we have something disprove that, it seems like the only thing we have to go by here.
"And as far as Soul play, Death has been doing that since his inception. His first most notable usage was creating the amulet that would then house the souls of his entire race. Besides himself, War, Fury, Strife and Absalom whose being became part of Corruption. Of course there was also his scythe, Harvester, that he forged himself which takes the souls of its victims. Plus his Necromancy allows him to manipulate, speak with and control both spirits and the dead. And despite its size, power and housing the billions of souls of mankind, the Wailing Host that prevents any new souls from entering the Well, was simply no match for Death. And there's something to be said for defeating a colossal undead entity in the City of the Dead."
Soul play was only brought up to point out that Soul Forms won't be much of an issue for the Darkness to affect.
"An ultimately meaningless move. His Main Body becomes indestructible in this state and if his divided essence strays too far from it, he'll just reform back into his main body. Also, Death has Voidwalker which allows him to create portals as well. And with Despair he can effectively ride across dimensions and enter any world he pleases. Which makes a BFR completely pointless since he can exit and go anywhere at his leisure. Also while Soul Splitter is in use, his dual selves still have access to all his other abilities and equipment besides the Reaper Form."
You brought up game mechanics, but ultimately his stone body is indestructible due to game mechanics (which Jackie has affected stone before with his power...). Regardless, even if he is able to return, it would certainly put a disruption in the attack.
"That's by game mechanics. Can say the same for Jackie in The Darkness games. But there's no need for that. And beyond the one time he was briefly knocked out when the Amulet pierced his body at the start of DS2, Death has been running, fighting and butchering his way through four realms, massive armies and sweeping his way towards the Well of Souls without a moments respite. Which would indicate he has tremendous vitality and strength. And as both the comic and novel indicate, Death can regain his strength rather quickly even when brought to near-death"
Of course it's a game mechanic. It's the source material for the character. To disprove it as such, we need to see something that disproves it, even in the gameplay video cut scenes, he doesn't maintain these alternate forms for long, which would denote that he cannot maintain them for extended lengths of time. The Darkness in the games is far different, and that is fine. The Darkness game is not the source material here, and is not the version being used. And while Death may be able to regain his strength quickly, these abilities are still not infinite from what I have seen and still drain him in some manner. Jackie with the darkness has survived re-entry, RPGs to the face, attacks from the original source of all light, regenerated from a jawbone, survived as a torso until he agreed with the Darkness and it regenerated him, and even survived a blade forged from stars that he stabbed himself with by growing a new heart. He can recover quite quickly himself, and has shown tremendous strength and vitality himself.
"That has less to do with any actual strength he has and more to due with the mystical nature of the Darkness, and Supes being quite vulnerable to magic and other such forces. If Death were to hit Supes with his scythes, chances are Supes would have big gashes across him from the magicy weapons of death-dealin awesomeness."
Pre-52, Supes doesn't just fold to mystical forces. He is vulnerable to magic and such yes (basically no special resistance), but if he folded, then every encounter with Wonder Woman and the like he should get stomped without issue. And that isn't the case. Jackie drew blood with a punch, which indicates a good deal of strength. He didn't use a piercing weapon or the Darkness inside. Base strength alone, he can hurt some durable types.
"And as it's already been shown, giant constructs don't deter Death. Hell the largest one he fought was the final boss of the Forgelands, the Guardian. Depicted rather well in the "Death Strikes" Trailer."
Didn't say he would be deterred (and he would be a poor bad arse if he was), but that video showed him taking down a purely physical threat. The Darkness isn't the same as that construct. And to point out, the construct that trapped Supes, Supes had an ability that could play on a specific weakness. Death from what I have seen has nothing that can play on that particular weakness. Not to say he couldn't hurt a construct though, but they aren't pushovers.
I do agree that Death is a dangerous foe, and his weapons and abilities could probably hurt some darklings and such, I just haven't seen anything in his power set that would do lasting damage to Jackie here, and I have seen even less that would make me believe Jackie couldn't just manipulate the darkness inside.
And I would argue that by Absalom's own words, Death resisted Corruption due to him already being blackened by sin.
That was more of a taunt than anything. And Absalom's hatred towards Death for killing them all and binding their souls in his amulet. All it did was raise the issue of Corruption's inability to affect Death, physically or mentally, Death resisted it influence.
There seems to be a very different set of circumstances for his resistance, none of which equate, nor can be attributed to the Darkness.
Conversely the Darkness has never been a tangible force in the DSU, and those who wield dark powers (such as demons), get killed by Death and the other Horsemen rather easily. No one has said that Darkness and Corruption are equal, only that they are very similar aspects. Since Death can resist one such primordial force, the chances of him resisting the Darkness is that much greater because of those similarities.
Again, what Absalom said was a taunt. He himself doesn't understand why Death can withstand Corruption, and maybe even Death doesn't know wither. Was it the Amulet with the souls of his kin that gave him some form of protection? Or was it his status was a Horsemen, as an agent of the Charred Council's power, that barred Corruption from taking root in him? Ultimately no one is sure and leaves much to speculate.
As far as it can be said, Death has resisted one such primordial force. Why he is able to is less of a concern over the fact he could. So far as it can be concerned, Death can resist the Darkness directly affecting his body as it had done others. And since we've seen others who could do so, for one reason or another, given Death's history and abilities, it leans more into his favor.
Of course it's a game mechanic. It's the source material for the character. To disprove it as such, we need to see something that disproves it, even in the gameplay video cut scenes, he doesn't maintain these alternate forms for long,
Death doesn't really need to maintain his Reaper Form for long. The longest he did so was against the 3rd Dead Lord, and basically just used it to smack him around. That was after killing Achidna whom Basilius was using like a mount. Achidna who possessed her own domain in the Shadowrealm.
Though throughout Death could project the spectral arms of his Reaper Form at will for various tasks, as well as project an Astral version of his Reaper Form to attack while in battle. Though Death never really seemed to apply effort when using his Reaper Form, as he could seemingly turn it on or off at will. Such as when he used it for an instant to cleave the bell to call forth the Eternal Throne where he could find the Lord of Bones. Which cut so fast it actually melted the metal.
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You brought up game mechanics, but ultimately his stone body is indestructible due to game mechanics (which Jackie has affected stone before with his power...). Regardless, even if he is able to return, it would certainly put a disruption in the attack.
However it clearly states that his stone form is indestructible. So it would be impervious to any kind of attack. And as pointed out before, Death can affect souls as well and has numerous abilities in that area. So it's highly unlikely any such attack of that type from Jackie would have that great an impact on him.
Either that's only assuming Death uses it at the start. It's not as if Jackie knows what he's doing. And even so it's unlikely Jackie could portal his main body away while fighting off two Death's at once. Besides the only way to move Death's body while stone was by opening a portal beneath it or placing it on a floating platform.
Pre-52, Supes doesn't just fold to mystical forces. He is vulnerable to magic and such yes (basically no special resistance), but if he folded, then every encounter with Wonder Woman and the like he should get stomped without issue. And that isn't the case. Jackie drew blood with a punch, which indicates a good deal of strength. He didn't use a piercing weapon or the Darkness inside. Base strength alone, he can hurt some durable types.
Diana's punches aren't magical. Her bracers are, lasso and sword are. But not her punches. Jackie's entire body is covered in the Darkness, making his entire body one big magical weapon. It's almost no different from that demon fiend in the Superman TAS series who clawed open Supes' chest with just a swipe of its claws.
Again, that's more attributed to magic and not strength. And if this writer is as knowledgeable on both figures as you say, then he knew that as well.
Didn't say he would be deterred (and he would be a poor bad arse if he was), but that video showed him taking down a purely physical threat. The Darkness isn't the same as that construct. For example, the one that trapped Supes, he had an ability that could play on a specific weakness. Death from what I have seen has nothing that can play on that particular weakness.
The trailer was really just to show the scale. The Guardian in the story is actually completely taken over by Corruption. It could only be defeated by destroying the three Maker's Stones which empowered it, each one housing the soul of a great Maker. Makers being large humanoids that've been around since just after Creation and laid the groundwork for every world in existence, and were responsible for building the spires of heaven and the towers of Hell.
If those stones weren't broken the Guardian would just keep reforming itself. It could smash with its giant hammer or shoot giant exploding balls of corruption. Or just step on you. As seen even in the vid, even if it misses with the hammer, the shockwave will knock you somethin fierce.
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Shouldn't ever underestimate these things. They can manipulate stone too with their own magic. Such as the Warden who restored a stone bridge with its call.
I do agree that Death is a dangerous foe, and his weapons and abilities could probably hurt some darklings and such, I just haven't seen anything in his power set that would do lasting damage to Jackie here, and I have seen even less that would make me believe Jackie couldn't just manipulate the darkness inside.
The Darklings aren't even really an issue for Death who can summon undead constructs and blazing souls against them. Corpse Explosion also makes his summoned creatures explode when killed, it'll just hurt Jackie's Darklings all the more.
@godtriggerhulk: I'm aware. But I can't see them doing it Multi-Player. That just ruins the experience. And I don't think it'd involve playing as Strife. It'd feel too much like Devil May Cry, since they'd end up having to give Strife some kind of melee weapon to go with his handguns. It would probably involve Fury, and trying to figure out how to get her whip to work right is no easy task.
I want War back.He is way cooler than Death, he was good too but War is the boss lol.
@reikai: yes and after that Strife is next.I want War, vengeance or something no one does that to a horseman especially War lol but i highly doubt it, it would be either Fury or Strife.
@ghostrider2: What they need to do is tell the stories of Fury and Strife before getting fully into the Apocalypse. And with the betrayal of the Charred Council, it's a sure bet the Horsemen aren't going to be forgiving.
But as I've said before, Strife would be last or just included in part with Fury since his play style would be too much like Dante in DMC. Whereas Fury with her whip can easily strike at range and any melee weapon she might be given would be something more like slender staffs and lighter swords as opposed to those used by War and Death. Fury would be physically weaker than the two big brothers, but she'd be faster and her weapons would be lighter to fight that.
"That was more of a taunt than anything. And Absalom's hatred towards Death for killing them all and binding their souls in his amulet. All it did was raise the issue of Corruption's inability to affect Death, physically or mentally, Death resisted it influence."
I would say prove it wasn't just a taunt, but I know you can't. What it did was state directly that Death is akin to the corruption for something he has done, and as such, was not affected like the others. A very telling statement, and is enough to call into question Death's resistance. Prove he actively resisted against what that statement throws out, and maybe you'll have a point. Until then, I see no proof that Death wouldn't be affected.
"Conversely the Darkness has never been a tangible force in the DSU, and those who wield dark powers (such as demons), get killed by Death and the other Horsemen rather easily. No one has said that Darkness and Corruption are equal, only that they are very similar aspects. Since Death can resist one such primordial force, the chances of him resisting the Darkness is that much greater because of those similarities.
Again, what Absalom said was a taunt. He himself doesn't understand why Death can withstand Corruption, and maybe even Death doesn't know wither. Was it the Amulet with the souls of his kin that gave him some form of protection? Or was it his status was a Horsemen, as an agent of the Charred Council's power, that barred Corruption from taking root in him? Ultimately no one is sure and leaves much to speculate.
As far as it can be said, Death has resisted one such primordial force. Why he is able to is less of a concern over the fact he could. So far as it can be concerned, Death can resist the Darkness directly affecting his body as it had done others. And since we've seen others who could do so, for one reason or another, given Death's history and abilities, it leans more into his favor."
And I ask again that you prove they are similar. Apples and bananas are fruits are they not? You want to argue they are similar?
Corruption does not equate to the Darkness other than being some entity that has been around for some time. Corruption does not function nor act the same as the Darkness, and unless you have some all, overpowering proof, then there is no argument to be had here. Darkness has played in the realms of the after life, been to hell and back, dealt with beings that should not be, people who deal in magic, necromancy, world ending creatures, dealt in the realm of abstracts, angels,and so on. I have seen nothing special in the game mythos as compared to the Darkness and that mythos.
So, where is the proof that Death actually resisted a primordial force instead of what Absalom stated, and where is the proof that any such thing would even stretch to the darkness in him, that isn't truly his, but belongs to the Darkness? Death is still lacking the rituals some had to put themselves through, or the aforementioned artifacts, and so far, those have really been the only way to resist what he can do on someones insides from what we have seen (and even then, I can't promise the artifact angle, he just hasn't done it to any of them yet, though I do believe he would fail to do it against the Angelus and Witchblade directly).
"Death doesn't really need to maintain his Reaper Form for long. The longest he did so was against the 3rd Dead Lord, and basically just used it to smack him around. That was after killing Achidna whom Basilius was using like a mount. Achidna who possessed her own domain in the Shadowrealm.
Though throughout Death could project the spectral arms of his Reaper Form at will for various tasks, as well as project an Astral version of his Reaper Form to attack while in battle. Though Death never really seemed to apply effort when using his Reaper Form, as he could seemingly turn it on or off at will. Such as when he used it for an instant to cleave the bell to call forth the Eternal Throne where he could find the Lord of Bones. Which cut so fast it actually melted the metal."
By the game, it is not a matter of him not needing to maintain it, but the fact that he can't, and I still see nothing that proves otherwise. But Jackie has other forms as well if he likes:
Not that he needs to take them, but he can shapeshift, and has options.
"However it clearly states that his stone form is indestructible. So it would be impervious to any kind of attack. And as pointed out before, Death can affect souls as well and has numerous abilities in that area. So it's highly unlikely any such attack of that type from Jackie would have that great an impact on him.
Either that's only assuming Death uses it at the start. It's not as if Jackie knows what he's doing. And even so it's unlikely Jackie could portal his main body away while fighting off two Death's at once. Besides the only way to move Death's body while stone was by opening a portal beneath it or placing it on a floating platform."
Where was it said that Jackie would be doing this alone?
Do you know how many of these things he can make? Not to mention dopplegangers of himself and so on?
Death can affect souls too? While that is great and all, just how does that stop someone else who can harm souls from hurting his soul forms? And even IF the stone is impervious to what Jackie can do, it has weight and substance, it can be used to push down pressure plates and such, there is nothing stopping it from being ported around...but hey, Jackie isn't the only one that can do these tricks, and like I said, he can bring a lot of friends:
His darklings were teleporting things before he was able to do it, and he doesn't have to concentrate or focus on them in to combat to make them do so. Besides, you have a guy suddenly turn to stone and two soul things come out, it's a pretty big tip off the stone body could be important.
Not to mention, he doesn't even really have to be out directly in the area to continue the fight:
He could feasibly port out, leave a dopplganger there, get himself a coffee, maybe a snack, and rejoin the fight when he feels like it. He doesn't have to be in Death's face the whole fight=)
"Diana's punches aren't magical. Her bracers are, lasso and sword are. But not her punches. Jackie's entire body is covered in the Darkness, making his entire body one big magical weapon. It's almost no different from that demon fiend in the Superman TAS series who clawed open Supes' chest with just a swipe of its claws.
Again, that's more attributed to magic and not strength. And if this writer is as knowledgeable on both figures as you say, then he knew that as well."
Diana was formed of clay by the gods, is considered a divine being, and as such, is magical by nature, making her body one big magical weapon as well, to add to those magical weapons she carries. She doesn't gain her powers from being a mutant, alien and so on. But Jackie has proven his strength time and again without that one feat, and still without proof that Death can resist having the darkness inside played with, it still isn't really needed. And I can pull the usual scans of Jackie dismantling military copters and tanks with ease if needed, so we can just drop the Supes angle=)
"The trailer was really just to show the scale. The Guardian in the story is actually completely taken over by Corruption. It could only be defeated by destroying the three Maker's Stones which empowered it, each one housing the soul of a great Maker. Makers being large humanoids that've been around since just after Creation and laid the groundwork for every world in existence, and were responsible for building the spires of heaven and the towers of Hell.
If those stones weren't broken the Guardian would just keep reforming itself. It could smash with its giant hammer or shoot giant exploding balls of corruption. Or just step on you. As seen even in the vid, even if it misses with the hammer, the shockwave will knock you somethin fierce."
Don't get me wrong, it is an awesome vid, and makes me want to get the game.
"Shouldn't ever underestimate these things. They can manipulate stone too with their own magic. Such as the Warden who restored a stone bridge with its call."
And Jackie has melted, shattered and so on with stone. His is an abstracts power of creation and destruction, so while cool, manipulating stone is kind of neither here nor there.
"The Darklings aren't even really an issue for Death who can summon undead constructs and blazing souls against them. Corpse Explosion also makes his summoned creatures explode when killed, it'll just hurt Jackie's Darklings all the more."
I disagree, they are very much an issue. They manhandle tonners (check with some of the other artifact bearers, like Tom Judge in the scan below), and as Jackie always says:
He'll just make more...so I fail to see what exploding corpses will accomplish when Jackie can just keep producing them of various sizes and shapes, and could even just pop the corpses from range. Not to mention that Jackie has made explosives from the Darkness before:
Gallery
And can generate bio-electricity (and created fire, water and more):
So, I think we can say with some certainty, that Death's minions aren't the only ones that have the ability to explode and so forth. Darkness formed organisms (as the doc put it in the scan above) can do a lot, and are exceedingly versatile.
And again, from what I see, Death is lacking the proper power set to really do anything lasting to Jackie, and I have seen little to show Death can resist Jackie's greatest trick.
Now, hopefully none of this came of as snarky or too combative, and if it did, I do truly apologize. Just under a lot of stress from all of this studying and the test coming up=(
@reikai: well full power PR Jackie would be the Absolute Darkness that appeared in Darkness #75 he enslaved the entire earth by blocking out the sun and stood one equal terms with that version of the Angelus who one-shotted a planet in that very issue. Death is going to be in trouble if he doesn't have the feats to compete.
Wasn`t that a future incarnation or alternative version of Jackie though? Also, Jackie is at standard but has full power which means full access due to it being extremely dark outside that`s a fully powered Jackie by standard and Death has defeated or encountered beings who operate on a world ending scale so I`m pretty sure he could prove his power against Jackie even in that scenario.
Prior to Rebirth (issue 101), Jackie was proven to resist to have his power stripped/weakened by the main Darkness entity, and proved powerful enough to face it, and kill it with a blade forged from stars (the sun dagger). He is technically now the Darkness entity itself, so some arguments could be made, BUT he has not quite explored what that means for him and the full measure of his power, so I will not go there.
That is a very informative point and its a strong feat in Jackie`s case but Jackie had help with sun daggers that in all forms of history we both know The Darkness even the entity itself is no exception to high forms of light energy and I agree its more of a speculative territory if we are to go a bit further into what Jackie can do we can only assume but by going by standard it makes things more clear and already founded in terms of what`s already confirmed for his character.
As for durability, and the soul bit...the Darkness is more than capable of harming souls:
That is impressive but not impressive enough not when Death himself can harm souls a lot more directly and he can even absorb them, bind them, summon them and even manipulate them in many more ways the two differences make a difference.... It doesn`t mean much when great magic and highly powered forms of elemental energies have a hard time actually hurting him also what it makes more of a struggle for Jackie is the fact that at the end of the day The Darkness power is a raw and brute force more to a degree rather than a kinetic or specialized one.
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Death`s legendary scythe devastates multiple enemies with large sweeping attacks. The Harvester also reaps more souls from fallen enemies.
Anything killed by the Darkness, their soul ends up in the Darkness' dimension. Jackie had to tear his way through there to get to the main entity, and he harmed plenty of trapped souls along the way. The Darkness does play in souls, and has had dominion over quite a few. Not to mention even the Darkness' own child has been shown to affect spectral forms and kill ghosts (Witchblade).
I don`t see Jackie being able to harm Death`s souls to that extent considering Death won`t allow him to do so and the souls are controlled by Death`s will so its quite doubtful in regards to if The Darkness can actually control any aspect regardless of having dominance or dominion. Death`s weapons will harm and get through Jackie`s armor considering he`s not only powered by magic but his weapons harm beings that are on the level of the Darkness, Abstract Beings such as the Charred Council respect and regard Death. The Darkness could probably hope to harm Death but it would be a problem considering he`s essentially a light corporeal being at that point with use of the Soul Splitter`s energy.
And while taking heat from elemental, demonic and other powers that have been around for a long time is one thing, it is a far cry from being immune, and is still quite a different thing than having an abstract play with your insides, and simply using something that is already a part of you. Resisting different forms of magic is one thing, resisting an abstract playing with something in it's domain is another, and the darkness inside qualifies as its domain. To resist the darkness has always taken something very specific and detailed (like rituals, an artifact that when brought together with others is capable of rewriting all of reality, and so on). Death doesn't qualify in any of those arenas.
Well not really... Because Death has not only tanked and resisted these many kinds of forces but its for the fact that he has become highly resistant or insusceptible to measures of damage that are supposed to harm or kill him. Its not simply an abstract power its a host or user using an abstract power, Jackie knows he has potential but hasn`t fully discovered it yet and I don`t think it would factor into this fight that much he can`t play with Death`s insides because Death would be light energy from the inside-out which the Soul Splitter is essentially and The Darkness hasn`t shown dominion over light in any form or case so its not plausible or logical to believe that it would work on Death when his souls is split into two forms or aspects.
The other main issue I see with Death, is if he tries Soul Splitter, he is basically leaving his body, which can be BFR'd, and then what happens to him? It has weight from what I have seen, can be used to hold down pressure plates and such, not much from stopping Jackie from opening a portal beneath it, and sending it to the dark dimension. The Darkness can harm souls, so I don't see that being an issue.
There`s no actual proof it can be BFR`d it is by the confirmed lore invulnerable to not only damage but to any type of intrusion or attempt and Death if I`m not mistaken has teleportation abilities himself so it shouldn`t be a problem. Also the Soul Splitter is light pretty much light based in the magical realms so Death is going to do a lot of damage on The Darkness especially with his scythe which collects souls. I think The Darkness will also have problem with Death`s magic he can summon armies of undead to aid him, he can heal himself easily restore himself to health, shield himself and even deal critical strikes or redirect attacks fluently back at the original source.
As well, all of Death's tricks are fairly draining to him, and of a limited time, whereas Jackie can keep on going.
Not exactly that`s by game mechanics which are not included with lore and the cutscenes don`t demonstrate this either its not a fact in this battle as well its more of a scenario that deals with gameplay in correlation with the player also Death doesn`t really get drained or tired too fast he easily has endured on a great quest of many battles and even when fighting Absalom even Samael he proved this. I think Death will drain Jackie once in his Soul Splitter form which operates on magical light properties also his scythe and Reaper Form will soul drain him as well his magic will put him on the defensive during the fight.
I'll even throw out that one of the major writers for the Darkness has been Ron Marz. Marz I have found to be an exceptionally cool guy, because I got him to respond to a question or two for me. Marz has also written quite a bit for DC (Superman, Superboy, Green Lantern, etc). So at first, something I was willing to dismiss because I just hadn't really paid attention to who wrote it was the Superman/Darkness crossover. I reread it the other night, and finally paid attention to who wrote it. Marz knows both characters very well, and while he confirmed that Jackie isn't as strong as pre-52 Superman, he is strong enough to at least put up a fight and draw some blood. Jackie's largest creation also proved capable of overpowering Supes, but alas, it didn't have an answer for his levels of heat vision attacking it from the inside while the sun was rising. So, you can take that as you will, but I find it a very strong case that a man that knows these characters like Marz does have Jackie pegged as being able to affect someone of his durability. Not to mention Jackie could have ended that fight so much faster, but hey, we can't have DC's golden boy getting killed in such a manner=)
I agree, Ron Marz is a talented writer and he`s a really admirable individual like Todd Mcfarlane he really cares for the receptive aspects that involves the communities who support The Darkness series and lines of books which I do respect :) I`m not sure if that`s even canon although the Batman/The Darkness crossover was also The Darkness was able to harm Superman because he`s a magical source, The Darkness entity itself is mystical and unearthly also I read the comics for which the crossover happened and I`m quite familiar with Ron`s work, I`m pretty sure Death would be able to harm Superman even more considering he is more adept and accustomed to the greater or truer forms of magic and Death is a lot more skilled as well as much more experienced. Jackie suffered a loss as well due to being exposed to sunlight which easily weakened him and he even admitted that, Death doesn`t have to worry about these type of things and Death is actually has a lot more versatility when it comes down to it, he has layers in terms of what he can do with the amount of arsenals that is attached to his character while Jackie is still in a singular framework but it was an impressive feat nonetheless.
Alright, I have to get to studying today, so please forgive me if I don't respond for a bit. I am not trying to be rude, I just have a test to prep for. I do promise to come back and respond to further posts when I get a chance.
No its fine and I understand, no worries also I wish you the best of luck as well, as I believe you will do an exceptional job you are very dedicated, I must commend you :)
@strider92: @neongamewave: There is one thing I mentioned before, but also it's not that Death can't be killed as he's not the Abstract Death, but a force granted great power by the Council in exchange for his services.
Death had been close to being killed when he was shot with Black Mercy, a Grand Abomination that auto-kills whomever is shot by it. The only reason he survived was due to his great magic and power, which had been drained to almost nothing from that one shot. A 2nd shot with it would've killed him, if it hadn't been for Azrael using illusions to distract Hadrimon just long enough for Death to regain enough strength to run him through.
Perhaps one contributing factor to his survival was the fact he was responsible for the creation of the Grand Abominations to begin with.
That is a very interesting point and I even believe although Death is not an Abstract he would still be able to impress Marvel`s Abstract Death, Lady Death or even Death from Vertigo`s Sandman considering how powerful he became in the short time amount of time shown, and The Charred Council are technically Abstract level forces (or even above) who maintain the balance of creation itself for them to acknowledge Death says a lot as to why he is the most feared of the Horsemen.
That is a good point the fact that Death can take a force so powerful that in and out of itself is meant to wrought or bring forth insta-death is a testament to his true power also in a sense Death wasn`t even at his prime like back in the old ages Death would probably be a lot stronger and more in depth in regards to battle considering what he has done to his own kind and the things that have haunted him with time. Death has been warring for thousands of years by lowball when actually it was realistically millions of years he easily has the experience advantage over Jackie and his scythe, The Harvester can absorb as well as affect souls directly. I don`t think Jackie would be immune in anyway also his soul related abilities or feats in general don`t compare to Death`s in the slightest.
I agree but Death in a way is nigh unkillable, I don`t see how Jackie being able to manipulate him from the inside would do anything considering Death can just counter with his magic and even weapons that were designed as well as deemed worthy to make the unkillable become the killable in which they are also of mass destruction have failed against him, also he becomes a magically-light encased soul when he uses the soul splitter so it wouldn`t work in The Darkness`s favor.
@neongamewave: Sorry brother man, not that I am not ignoring your post, but I have basically already responded to all of that one point for point in another post, and I am trying to narrow down my focus here and limit the posts due to limited time, so I am not gong point for point with the same stuff again=)
Again, though, the biggest thing I keep seeing is that this belief that Death is just going to resist the Darkness being manipulated inside of him. I have seen no proof that this can't or won't happen, especially when Jackie has proven to do it to an immortal who was amped by the voice of god (and the powers of other magical creatures he was draining):
Jackie chose to regrow the guys eardrums for some poetic justice, so he would have to listen to the voice of god. And Jackie did that while weakened, and not at the peak of his power in the dark. Two things that guy could not resist in the end was the voice of the god and the Darkness. Surviving some fire and lightning attacks doesn't make one immune to Jackie's powers, and this whole Corruption bit just doesn't cut it for proof due to what Absalom said.
Not to mention the soul forms...Jackie can still affect souls, so unless those souls are pure sunlight, I don't see them being an issue. He can tag souls. They aren't a bright enough light to really do much to Jackie if he grew to the point that he could wield the sun dagger:
And then, at best, this would turn into a stalemate, and they would both have to go get some beers and then team up to take down all baddies in the afterlife, because Death has nothing in his power set that I have seen that can really do anything to Jackie. Not to mention that at the height of his power, pre-rebirth, Jackie was able to survive an Angelus forged blade meant to end the Darkness, was able to hold onto his power and grew to the point that it could not be stripped, was able to traverse the realm of the Darkness and fight his way through it to the entity, and was able to take it down and thus take it's place:
And, pre-Rebirth, at his most powerful, that sun dagger was standard for the entire arc pre-rebirth that Jackie was at his peak=)
Not to mention the facts that he tears up military copters and tanks bare handed with ease, his constructs are all tonners as well, and that he can turn every shadow, every dark place, every patch of darkness into a war zone, and can manipulate the darkness down to a molecular level (and is exceedingly versatile with the ability, able to create life, weapons, explosives, labyrinths/structures, supernatural drugs, water, fire, electricity, corrosive substances, dopplegangers, can shapeshift himself to more powerful forms and so on).
Death quite simply lacks the powerset to take down Jackie from what I see.
@neongamewave: Well, regardless of what we all feel for the outcome here, you guys have made me want to get this game. I'll check both entries in the series out after this test=)
And, I almost forgot, thanks for the well wishes on this brother man! It is truly, gratefully appreciated!
@neongamewave: Sorry brother man, not that I am not ignoring your post, but I have basically already responded to all of that one point for point in another post, and I am trying to narrow down my focus here and limit the posts due to limited time, so I am not gong point for point with the same stuff again=)
No need to apologize my friend and I understand :)
Again, though, the biggest thing I keep seeing is that this belief that Death is just going to resist the Darkness being manipulated inside of him. I have seen no proof that this can't or won't happen, especially when Jackie has proven to do it to an immortal who was amped by the voice of god (and the powers of other magical creatures he was draining):
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The thing is though is that even if The Darkness managed to manipulate Death`s insides which are basically unconventional to normal means it doesn`t mean Jackie would be able to K.O or kill him at best it would stun, or at least make him a feel a form of curiosity rather than sheer discomfort he`s wielding power from the Charred Council as well as they are universal forces that task him personally so I don`t think The Darkness would be able to out rule them either (they are empowered by a greater force than even he Darkness itself) and the scan below doesn`t fit the context you are describing.
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Jackie chose to regrow the guys eardrums for some poetic justice, so he would have to listen to the voice of god. And Jackie did that while weakened, and not at the peak of his power in the dark. Two things that guy could not resist in the end was the voice of the god and the Darkness. Surviving some fire and lightning attacks doesn't make one immune to Jackie's powers, and this whole Corruption bit just doesn't cut it for proof due to what Absalom said.
Regrowing his eardrums is different than manipulating his being a 100% and at the end of the day the guy behind those abilities although immortal is still not practically near unkillable like Death is also he`s a fleshly being a humanoid mortal, Death is not in anyway comparable to that circumstance. Death resisted not only elemental forces but reality warping magic as well and different types of darkness related powers. Death actually did defeat and resist Absalom though regardless if it was a taunt or not the fact still remains that Absalom couldn`t stand a chance against him when he was able to even affect entire worlds. Even if Jackie wasn`t at peak power it doesn`t change what I have already stated and we can`t say for sure these methods would kill the embodiment of Death its speculative at best, however there is proof of Death overcoming near death experiences that exceed physical assault.
Not to mention the soul forms...Jackie can still affect souls, so unless those souls are pure sunlight, I don't see them being an issue. He can tag souls. They aren't a bright enough light to really do much to Jackie if he grew to the point that he could wield the sun dagger:
He can affect them but it doesn`t mean he would be able to affect Death`s soul, affecting weak willed and lower tier souls that operate on a lower plain of existence in comparison to the Soul Splitter itself doesn`t mean he`s going to have the advantage over the Horseman who will be battling it out with him also Death`s going to use a lot of summoning as well although Jackie can counter with the darklings it doesn`t take away the fact that Death has a variety of abilities. Also the sun dagger still affected him regardless he didn`t wield it that long and its not like he was directly tanking it by testing it out on The Darkness armor or just consuming/absorbing it to test out how far he has come in the Darkness power he only wielded it in his grip he wasn`t directly exposed to a complete radius of the sun`s energy rays or radiation the comparison isn`t there we can only go so far but its consistently confirmed as fact that he still affected either way.
And then, at best, this would turn into a stalemate, and they would both have to go get some beers and then team up to take down all baddies in the afterlife, because Death has nothing in his power set that I have seen that can really do anything to Jackie. Not to mention that at the height of his power, pre-rebirth, Jackie was able to survive an Angelus forged blade meant to end the Darkness, was able to hold onto his power and grew to the point that it could not be stripped, was able to traverse the realm of the Darkness and fight his way through it to the entity, and was able to take it down and thus take it's place:
I agree, I could really see a stalemate happening and that would be a cool scenario they would work well together but I have to disagree with the idea of Death not having anything in his power-set to harm Jackie he has plenty of resources he can easily use his signature weapon the Harvester, magic, Wrath abilities and etc. If he can harm top-tier beings like Samael, Absalom and challenge the Lord of Bones then I don`t see how he wouldn`t be able to harm Jackie, and that was for the sake of Jackie showcasing willpower it won`t really aid him here.
And, pre-Rebirth, at his most powerful, that sun dagger was standard for the entire arc pre-rebirth that Jackie was at his peak=)
The sun dagger still affected him regardless and he didn`t tank it really a single grip as well as shattering caused him damage also it doesn`t mean Deaths light wouldn`t be able to affect him it doesn`t prove so, since light still can pierce or hold off the armor itself.
Not to mention the facts that he tears up military copters and tanks bare handed with ease, his constructs are all tonners as well, and that he can turn every shadow, every dark place, every patch of darkness into a war zone, and can manipulate the darkness down to a molecular level (and is exceedingly versatile with the ability, able to create life, weapons, explosives, labyrinths/structures, supernatural drugs, water, fire, electricity, corrosive substances, dopplegangers, can shapeshift himself to more powerful forms and so on).
Death can do all of that too and War who is far weaker than Death has been doing those things since the first game even Alex Mercer a being who in some ways is similar to the Darkness has been doing that with far more ease when it comes to ripping helicopters, tanks, military bases apart and turning a war into a personal battlefield. I don`t see any of that being able to harm Death since he has already encountered many forms of deadly versatility and brute force isn`t going to cut it when facing a force of Death itself. Death has been facing armies for millions of years at minimal and hasn`t tired out since.
Death quite simply lacks the powerset to take down Jackie from what I see.
I disagree. I don`t think Jackie would even want to underestimate or test Death since it claimed him and already almost had him many times if it weren`t for The Darkness things would gone darker than what he would even want, Death is something even darkness cannot escape.
@neongamewave: Well, regardless of what we all feel for the outcome here, you guys have made me want to get this game. I'll check both entries in the series out after this test=)
And, I almost forgot, thanks for the well wishes on this brother man! It is truly, gratefully appreciated!
@neongamewave: At least we can keep it friendly. Just had an awfully rude experience for calling someone friend. Geez...anyhow, not your issue or problem=)
"The thing is though is that even if The Darkness managed to manipulate Death`s insides which are basically unconventional to normal means it doesn`t mean Jackie would be able to K.O or kill him at best it would stun, or at least make him a feel a form of curiosity rather than sheer discomfort he`s wielding power from the Charred Council as well as they are universal forces that task him personally so I don`t think The Darkness would be able to out rule them either (they are empowered by a greater force than even he Darkness itself) and the scan below doesn`t fit the context you are describing."
The scan actually does fit the context. That gentleman was empowered by draining the voice of god, the Darkness, and several other entities, and Jackie still affected him. As for affecting Death, I beg to differ, since everyone Jackie has effected, has never thought it was an odd sensation, and went about their day. They just kind of die. Considering the Charred Council doesn't hold domain over the abstract Darkness, I have seen little proof that they could stop it.
"Regrowing his eardrums is different than manipulating his being a 100% and at the end of the day the guy behind those abilities although immortal is still not practically near unkillable like Death is also he`s a fleshly being a humanoid mortal, Death is not in anyway comparable to that circumstance. Death resisted not only elemental forces but reality warping magic as well and different types of darkness related powers. Death actually did defeat and resist Absalom though regardless if it was a taunt or not the fact still remains that Absalom couldn`t stand a chance against him when he was able to even affect entire worlds. Even if Jackie wasn`t at peak power it doesn`t change what I have already stated and we can`t say for sure these methods would kill the embodiment of Death its speculative at best, however there is proof of Death overcoming near death experiences that exceed physical assault."
Regrowing his eardrums and manipulating the darkness inside while he was being drained and doing it to someone who was amped shows a lot. He won't be drained in this fight. By Absalom's words, Death didn't outright resist Corruption out of pure will or power. He did it because something is wrong in him, and already corrupt. Resisting elemental forces is great and all, but Death can be hurt from what I have seen (and the source material, the game shows that, game mechanics or not, its there, and he obviously isn't invulnerable, he is just a tough sob), and it isn't the same as being immune to the Darkness, which by Darkness lore, Death doesn't meet any of the requirements to resist him (no special rituals, no artifacts, and so on). There is no proof that Death can resist the Darkness, and in the realm of Top Cow, embodiments tend to be able to be put down, and the supposedly unkillable has been killed before. That's the power some of these artifacts wield, and the Darkness is the top of that food chain.
"He can affect them but it doesn`t mean he would be able to affect Death`s soul, affecting weak willed and lower tier souls that operate on a lower plain of existence in comparison to the Soul Splitter itself doesn`t mean he`s going to have the advantage over the Horseman who will be battling it out with him also Death`s going to use a lot of summoning as well although Jackie can counter with the darklings it doesn`t take away the fact that Death has a variety of abilities. Also the sun dagger still affected him regardless he didn`t wield it that long and its not like he was directly tanking it by testing it out on The Darkness armor or just consuming/absorbing it to test out how far he has come in the Darkness power he only wielded it in his grip he wasn`t directly exposed to a complete radius of the sun`s energy rays or radiation the comparison isn`t there we can only go so far but its consistently confirmed as fact that he still affected either way. The sun dagger still affected him regardless and he didn`t tank it really a single grip as well as shattering caused him damage also it doesn`t mean Deaths light wouldn`t be able to affect him it doesn`t prove so, since light still can pierce or hold off the armor itself."
I combined two of your posts here. That surviving the sun dagger bit, that scan you are referencing isn't the instance I was talking about:
He was wielding and using it. A little sun in his hands, and stabbed himself and came back from it. Sure, it pushed his Darkness armor back after he released it's full power, a sun going nova might do that. But Jackie walked out of there. The entity didn't. He carried that dagger throughout his whole trip through the Darkness realm, so he had it for some time, considering that time flows differently in that realm, and he was there for maybe over a year or more. He was deterred for a bit, lived with a tribe of souls, grew a beard, got a woman, and so on until he figured out how to move on from there. Not to mention, he had to carry that dagger within himthe whole time.
While Death has a variety of abilities, so does Jackie. One of those abilities is harming souls. Now, unless we can prove that someone with the direct proven ability to harm a soul can't harm Death's soul forms, then there really isn't a whole lot of argument to be had there.
Let's also be clear, simple light won't cut it. Jackie has tanked blasts and attacks from the original source of all light (and if that abstract power failed to put him down, I fail to see what Deaths lights would do). Simple light won't just pierce and put down his armor. Even the light of a little sun wasn't doing it, and it took it going nova to do anything. He grew exceedingly light resistant. He went from having phosphorous rounds being able to harm him and then growing to the point of being able to wield a weapon forged from stars. Jackie would need to be under the full light of the sun, and even then, he could still manipulate the darkness inside all things, and would just come back when the sun went down.
"Death can do all of that too and War who is far weaker than Death has been doing those things since the first game even Alex Mercer a being who in some ways is similar to the Darkness has been doing that with far more ease when it comes to ripping helicopters, tanks, military bases apart and turning a war into a personal battlefield. I don`t see any of that being able to harm Death since he has already encountered many forms of deadly versatility and brute force isn`t going to cut it when facing a force of Death itself. Death has been facing armies for millions of years at minimal and hasn`t tired out since."
Not sure if you can say what Alex has been doing was with far more ease, since by the very nature of the word ease, it was pretty effortless on Jackie's part. I see him being able to harm Death, because I haven't seen anything that says he can't harm Death. Sure, Death is a force, but he isn't an abstract. The Darkness is a force, and while Jackie may not have explored the full breadth of what he can do since killing the main entity (he has been a bit busy), Jackie isn't just a host after that incident. He is a force, he is the Darkness, and all that power is his pre-Rebirth. And in this fight, Jackie is put at the height of his ability as if in full Darkness, which means he won't be tiring out, since he basically subsists off of the Darkness (to the point that his body rejects food). Now, I won't use the one shotting the Angelus bit who was able to destroy planets and with Jackie being able to blot out the sun, since just what it all means hasn't been explored yet. I mention it to put into perspective of what he has become.
"I disagree. I don`t think Jackie would even want to underestimate or test Death since it claimed him and already almost had him many times if it weren`t for The Darkness things would gone darker than what he would even want, Death is something even darkness cannot escape."
"Death" is something Jackie has quite often escaped and come back from. Death simply doesn't have the right power set to do anything lasting to Jackie. He doesn't carry a sun dagger or a Witchblade, and his light just isn't enough.
"I agree, I could really see a stalemate happening and that would be a cool scenario they would work well together but I have to disagree with the idea of Death not having anything in his power-set to harm Jackie he has plenty of resources he can easily use his signature weapon the Harvester, magic, Wrath abilities and etc. If he can harm top-tier beings like Samael, Absalom and challenge the Lord of Bones then I don`t see how he wouldn`t be able to harm Jackie, and that was for the sake of Jackie showcasing willpower it won`t really aid him here."
We may be stuck agreeing to disagree, or settle at a stalemate. But if the sun dagger failed to kill Jackie when he stabbed himself, and Jackie can tank blasts and attacks from the original source of all light, then I fail to see what Death can really do here. Honestly, what it takes to kill the Darkness is the Witchblade, and Death doesn't have that little child of abstracts in his armory.
Alright, we are getting to the point of talking in circles. For me, I know enough of Jackie and have seen enough of him to believe that he can take Death here (you don't and I am cool with that). To deter me from that thought would take something a little more, and Death hurting foes from his game isn't going to do it, because no matter how powerful they are, they aren't resistant to what Death does obviously, and don't function the same, nor have the same weaknesses/resistances/etc as Jackie. I have also seen nothing that shows me Death can resist having the Darkness inside messed with. That Angelus Warrior way up in my earlier posts...he had the backing of the source of all light, and abstract power, and it didn't do him any good. If it could be proved that Death resisted Corruption because of his sheer awesomeness, that would be one thing, but the only shred of evidence we have says otherwise.
Alright, need some sleep for more study time tomorrow. Take it easy my friend, and good chatting with you=)
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