Deadliest Warrior #2: Darkness vs Green Lantern

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Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler

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Last time, we had Cap face off against Batman. There was a lot of great arguments and debates for both sides. Let's see how it goes with some higher powered characters in Jackie Estecado and Hal Jordan (Pre-New 52).

Rules

This is not a normal battle, this will be done just like SPIKE TV"s show, "The Deadliest Warrior". There will not even be a scenario for the battle right from the start. The way this will work is that I will bring up a certain aspect of each character such as equipment, fighting skill, or physicals. During this time, only that aspect of the characters will be debated. I will then select who I think has the edge in the category based solely on what has been debated. Nothing else but that category can be debated at that time.

After all categories have been debated and edges have been given to each character for every category, I will set up a battle scenario that will determine the winner.

Round 1: Physicals - EDGE Darkness

Basically all of the evidence provided was in favor of Jackie taking the edge in pure physicals. When boosting his physical levels with his powers, he has the ability to push himself into the 100s of tons range. This was a clear edge for Jackie.

Round 2: Construct Strength - EDGE Green Lantern

This is only a slight edge to Green Lantern, because there are several showings of Jackie's constructs being very powerful. Remember that this was only how strong their constructs are, the next round focuses on how well they use them in battle.

Round 3: Creativity and Overall Use of Constructs

At this time, only debate about how effective they are at using their constructs in battle. This includes any Darklings or entities that Jackie creates, as those are basically higher functioning Constructs.

I will do my best to ignore any of my previous knowledge of these characters and any biases I might have. I will make a decision solely on your comments.

Previous Deadliest Warrior Battles

Captain America vs Batman - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/deadliest-warrior-1-captain-america-vs-batman-1511961/

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Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler

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reaverlation

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#3  Edited By reaverlation

I heard The Darkness is actually pretty darn powerful.

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Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler

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dondave

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I wonder why I'm an expert opinion for the Darkness and not Green Lantern?

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reaverlation

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@oy_the_billy_bumbler: Man that was good to read.I mean Jackie has regeneration on par with Deadpool or possibly Kid Buu.Sorry for going a little off topic on this round but I'll try to come up with something for Hal

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Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler

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@dondave: It had you in both sections in the callout book. You're copied for both Jackie and Hal in this too.

@reaverlation said:

@oy_the_billy_bumbler: Man that was good to read.I mean Jackie has regeneration on par with Deadpool or possibly Kid Buu.Sorry for going a little off topic on this round but I'll try to come up with something for Hal

I'm looking forward to see what you find.

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reaverlation

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#8  Edited By reaverlation
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This is what I can find for Hal for now.Being able to easily keep up with Flash

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Strider1992

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@oy_the_billy_bumbler: In terms of physical ability the Jackie is a multi-hundred tonner when using the Darkness. For example against the Sovereign statue when Jackie knew he couldn't win he boosted his physical abilities in order to match the Sovereign and as it was considered a casual mountain buster at the time this is nothing to be laughed at.

However given your stipulations you are referring to their physicals without influence from their powers correct? If thats the case then Jackie has this in the bag. Hal was a pilot yes but Jackie was a hit-man for the mafia he has hand to hand skills outside his powers and is a very efficient killer as we've seen in various Darkness issues when he cannot access his powers.

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Suske_Amoras

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#10  Edited By Suske_Amoras

Speed, Fighting speed,reaction time --> Hal

Strength Probaly Hal

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homicidalmaniac

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Well,Jackie had gotten into a physical match with Sovereign who a mountain buster.Without the Darkness powers,Jackie was a hit-man for the Mafia and Jackie had shown H2H feats.In The Darkness #104,IIRC Jackie nearly killed a few hit-men with his bare hands.

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Darkness

Strength:

Very easily qualifies in the high tonnage range here (so do his darklings).

Durability/Regen:

As an FYI on the durability stuff here, the instance where you see him as a torso, bear in mind the Darkness was not entirely with him, but as you can see, it can keep him alive if it likes, so he is extremely durable, and the scan after those shows him whole after the Darkness healed him. As well, the jawbone regeneration feat is here, and Jackie had killed himself in the light with explosives, and as you can see, the Darkness brought him back. He has also regrown his own heart, is bullet proof, insane regeneration, survived re-entry even as his Darkness armor was leaving him, and tanks explosions and so on.

Speed/Reflexes:

He does have the usual bullet dodging feats, and plenty of them while in human form (sorry, but I am stopping with these three for now), but in Darkness form, as you can see from the durability stuff, he doesn't really dodge all that often. So some enhanced speed, but Top Cow really only has one speedster (Velocity), and unlike DC, it isn't a power everyone and their mother has.

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Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler

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@oy_the_billy_bumbler: In terms of physical ability the Jackie is a multi-hundred tonner when using the Darkness. For example against the Sovereign statue when Jackie knew he couldn't win he boosted his physical abilities in order to match the Sovereign and as it was considered a casual mountain buster at the time this is nothing to be laughed at.

However given your stipulations you are referring to their physicals without influence from their powers correct? If thats the case then Jackie has this in the bag. Hal was a pilot yes but Jackie was a hit-man for the mafia he has hand to hand skills outside his powers and is a very efficient killer as we've seen in various Darkness issues when he cannot access his powers.

Powers can be taken into account if they effect his physicals. This round just doesn't have anything like using tendrils, energy projection, or creating constructs.

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dondave

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@oy_the_billy_bumbler: In terms of Strength Hal uses his constructs for all his strength feats. I don't think I can recall Hal ever lifting anything with just his arms. So are you limiting him to just his arms or can he use his constructs to show his strength?

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Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler

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@dondave: That will be a later category (probably the next one), right now this is just physicals. If Hal uses the Green Lantern energy to enhance his own body, like through his suit or something, then that can be taken into account.

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New_World_Order

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#16  Edited By New_World_Order

The Darkness.

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Strider1992

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#18  Edited By Strider1992

@oy_the_billy_bumbler: Then yeah the Darkness has better physical stats he's been seen trading blows with high end tonners and out pacing bullets with ease. His reactions are probably as good as Hal's but he doesn't tend to use them due to his haxed healing factor that allows him to regenerate on an atomic level so he has no real reason to avoid blows unless he has too. Darkness takes the physical round.

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dondave

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Hal Stomps the constructs Round

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Iragexcudder

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Constructs go to Hal.

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#22  Edited By Strider1992

@oy_the_billy_bumbler: By "strength of constructs" do you mean their ability to inflict damage or their ability to damage soak?

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Hal

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Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler

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@strider92: Good question. Use both examples to consider their power.

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IheartZombies92--defunct

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For constructs, I go with Hal - more variety, more control, less weaknesses (e.g. light), more general feats

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#26  Edited By Strider1992

@oy_the_billy_bumbler: In that case Hal's constructs have more feats of durability against stronger opponents. Due to the fact his constructs are based on willpower he can create arguably more durable constructs. Having said that Jackie's constructs are capable of inflicting far more damage due to the fact he can literally create them anywhere thats dark be that in a corner somewhere or in the middle of his opponents brain. What it comes down to is that they are both powerful in different aspects. Hal may be able to create constructs that can take hits from Sinestro but he can't create a construct to instantly decapitate or incapacitate any opponent or pull an entire army out of thin air.

The best way to think of it imo is too look at Hal's constructs like a sledge-hammer as in they are strong and durable and Jackie's constructs as a sword precise and deadly. Both are dangerous in their own right for different reasons. I see Jackies constructs as being able to inflict more controlled and targeted damage than Hal's but Hal's are more durable. So I would call this a draw as both have traits that make them at the same time superior and inferior to the other. There is no better construct here imo.

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Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler

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@strider92: Awesome breakdown. The way you describe the precision of Jackie is a great analogy IMO. I think that will fit better into the next round, which will be creativity and overall use of constructs, because this is round is just shear power levels.

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#29  Edited By New_World_Order

@oy_the_billy_bumbler: In that case Hal's constructs have more feats of durability against stronger opponents. Due to the fact his constructs are based on willpower he can create arguably more durable constructs. Having said that Jackie's constructs are capable of inflicting far more damage due to the fact he can literally create them anywhere thats dark be that in a corner somewhere or in the middle of his opponents brain. What it comes down to is that they are both powerful in different aspects. Hal may be able to create constructs that can take hits from Sinestro but he can't create a construct to instantly decapitate or incapacitate any opponent or pull an entire army out of thin air.

The best way to think of it imo is too look at Hal's constructs like a sledge-hammer as in they are strong and durable and Jackie's constructs as a sword precise and deadly. Both are dangerous in their own right for different reasons. I see Jackies constructs as being able to inflict more controlled and targeted damage than Hal's but Hal's are more durable. So I would call this a draw as both have traits that make them at the same time superior and inferior to the other. There is no better construct here imo.

This.

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#30  Edited By Wyldsong

I wouldn't say that Jackie's darklings are that bad to be honest. I am not at home, so I cannot access all of my scans, but it really depends on the darkling, and how much Jackie puts into it. Your average darkling, while far above an average human, is still not much compared to Hal's constructs. But, depending on what he makes, he has created darklings that can give a good fight to the Angelus or Witchblade themselves, and ones that can manhandle the likes of Tom Judge, who in Rapture form can give a good fight to Jackie (and the Rapture has the strength to nearly match Jackie):

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Not to mention, many darklings have given good fights to Jackie himself at times. He also doesn't have to focus on them, and they can keep on going, and don't require a power source. They just have to stay out of sunlight or exceedingly bright light. Not to mention, he can make a lot of them...I mean, a lot...just wish I had my scans with me=(

I'll also throw out that some darkling's, like Elle (she is for all intents and purposes a darkling, just exceedingly high functioning):

No Caption Provided

Were shown to be as proficient and nearly as powerful as Jackie himself (she showed some insane regen herself coming back from death after giving birth to their child, and was shown to be nearly as proficient in the darkness usage as Jackie, and is a tonner herself).

And this next one...alright, I am on the fence about even showing this scan, or discussing it, BUT, I am going to throw it out for slight consideration, and I will explain why, but take it as you will:

No Caption Provided

At first, I was dismissive of the whole showing (I had not originally read it since it was released, and just reread it), and writing it off as non-canon, but after a recent rereading and finally paying attention to the writer and such...here is the thought process: Marz wrote the story, and of course he has a long history with the Darkness and Top Cow. What I didn't realize was that Marz also has a pretty deep history with DC, including Green Lantern, Superboy, and of course, Superman. So, this is a writer that knows both characters exceedingly well, and in his estimation, it is possible for Jackie to create a darkling powerful enough to overpower Superman. Truthfully, Jackie could have ended that fight far differently, but Marz isn't going to let DC's golden boy have his head get popped in horrific fashion...

Now, to defend the flip side that will come, Superman is not really weak to magic, but he has no special protection/resistance against it. Yes, that is a supernatural creature that swallowed him, but let's also bear in mind, Superman doesn't just lose his strength, or just flat out crumple in hand to hand when it comes to magic (else every character that uses magic should be able to manhandle Supes). It's still strength against strength there, and I have seen pre-52 Supes fight magic entities and match strength against them (he has fought angels, demons and so on, and his strength doesn't just fail because the supernatural is involved).

So, take it as you will, but it was written by someone that knows both characters exceedingly well. Let's also clarify, that Jackie in that story picked a bad time to try that, as the sun started coming up, and Supes could play on the light weakness from the inside with his heat vision (a heated beam of light works wonders it seems).

The strength and durability of Jackie's darklings is really dependent on the darkling created, but he can make darklings that hang with tonners (see the Rapture, Witchblade, the Angelus, and maybe the Superman scan depending on how you take it). And as long as he has darkness, they can keep on coming, and he can keep producing them. As well, he can summon these tonners pretty much anywhere he wants, increasing their destructive capabilities (note that Aphrodite models are exceedingly durable):

No Caption Provided

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I will take Hal Jordan for round 3. He uses constructs in almost every single battle, it's there whole thing. Since it's his main way of attacking his is going to obviously look more effective than Jackie's because his is the main way of attack for a Green Lantern. Not to mention he makes better constructs and such, The Darkness's is sort of like summoning creatures out of Darkness constructs, while Hal's is different because he does all sorts of things like hammers, machine guns, sharks, ect.

So I will take Hal Jordan.

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Iragexcudder

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Hal indefinitely.. The way he uses his imagination for his constructs is simply amazing. Darknesss constructs are impressive, but Hal can literally take any form he chooses.

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I will take Hal Jordan for round 3. He uses constructs in almost every single battle, it's there whole thing. Since it's his main way of attacking his is going to obviously look more effective than Jackie's because his is the main way of attack for a Green Lantern. Not to mention he makes better constructs and such, The Darkness's is sort of like summoning creatures out of Darkness constructs, while Hal's is different because he does all sorts of things like hammers, machine guns, sharks, ect.

So I will take Hal Jordan.

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Not a expert, but no way Hal uses Constructs better. He uses them to make the dumbest things. Giant Hands, Boxing Gloves, or a wall of some kind, ect....

Darkness uses his to rip you up from the inside, razor sharp attacks, or simply create self thinking armies that eat ya.

Way more efficient, and honestly Hal constructs has nothing of killing you from the inside.

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Hal.

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#38  Edited By Wyldsong
@cadencev2 said:

Not a expert, but no way Hal uses Constructs better. He uses them to make the dumbest things. Giant Hands, Boxing Gloves, or a wall of some kind, ect....

Darkness uses his to rip you up from the inside, razor sharp attacks, or simply create self thinking armies that eat ya.

Way more efficient, and honestly Hal constructs has nothing of killing you from the inside.

This is true.

Not that I have time for a full out post, but if I get a chance I will share some scans as per previous posts.

What I can say is that Jackie can and has worked the Darkness down to the molecular level. What he creates is effectively real for all intents and purposes, and can go on existing and functioning and working on it's own indefinitely as long as it avoids sunlight. He has created life that was capable of giving birth, created addictive supernatural drugs, corrosive substances that melt walls, regrown his own heart, regrown other peoples body parts, can heal himself and others, can create fire/electricity/water/so on, can create guns/explosives/various weapons, created working and functioning computers/security systems, can manipulate the Darkness inside all things which doesn't require to him move/touch/blink at his foes or anything really, reworked someone he killed through the cellular level to function and act just like them but under his command, created a basically living and ever changing labyrinth, teleportation, can infect others and basically make controllable zombies, can create independently functioning dopplegangers of himself, has broken down surrounding matter in the area to dark matter for his use in one fight, created giant hands from the ground to grab cars, shapeshifted into giant dragon like creatures and made himself look like an old woman, has cured darkness born diseases, can pretty much create endless armies as long he has darkness to work with, and his darklings have even been known to possess and use many of these powers themselves. They have morphed others, created blood for a transfusion, can teleport, have teleported others, moved things through solid matter, created weapons/costumes/etc for themselves, and so on. The darklings he creates are capable of reasoning and carrying out missions and orders (some are more advanced than others, like his dopplegangers and Elle), and he doesn't even have to be there or anywhere near the general vicinity.

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Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler

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Bump, I'd like to see this round go on for a while, since it's that majority of what these two characters do...

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Iragexcudder

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@tparks: thanks for the bump, I haven't seen OTBB on the site in a while..

Are we discussing round 3?

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