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#1 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

Team battle. NO morals, everyone highly motivated to win. Wins by death. Teams start at opposite sides of a large abandoned aircraft factory. Each team also gets basic information about the opponents and terrain, and 10 minutes to work out their strategy.

Everyone has standard equipment for a random encounter.

DC team:

Batman (leader), Nightwing, Batgirl, Green Arrow, Wildcat, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Lady Shiva, Deadshot

Marvel team:

Captain America (leader), Daredevil, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Punisher, Elektra, Bullseye

Which team ends up victorious? Also, for winning team, how many characters survive?

#2 Posted by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmm... Team DC.

#3 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Team DC.

#4 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@venomoushatred1001 said:

Hmmm... Team DC.

@jeanroygrant said:

Team DC.

Why? How do you think the fight would go down?

#5 Posted by emperorznb (1673 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

@venomoushatred1001 said:

Hmmm... Team DC.

@jeanroygrant said:

Team DC.

Why? How do you think the fight would go down?

Because of Lady Shiva and Batgirl plus Green Arrow and also the freakin Batman xD... Seriously. While most of Marvel streets are on par with DCs, a character that can read the moves of your opponent will be a very huge problem with other good martial artists such as Nightwing and Green Arrow to mess things up big time on Marvel's side. Lady Shiva and Cain can do a lot of damage to the opposing team on their own IMO. Plus, DC has deadshot... the one who makes guys that say that they are indestructible like shooting targets. Deadshot can take care of Punisher and stall Bullseye. Finally, they have the goddamn Batman to make their strategy. Not saying that Cap is not a good leader tho... he is good in strategy but he's better in boosting his team's morale whereas Batman's main field is drawing strategies to win.

#6 Posted by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

DC team:

Batman (leader), Nightwing, Batgirl, Green Arrow, Wildcat, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Lady Shiva, Deadshot

Marvel team:

Captain America (leader), Daredevil, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Punisher, Elektra, Bullseye

Cap vs Bats = could go either way

Nightwing vs Daredevil = Daredevil after a good fight

Batgirl vs Widow = Batgirl effortlessly, Widow is a joke

Green Arrow vs Hawkeye = Green Arrow, better archery feats IMO

Wildcat vs Panther = Panther easily, stronger faster and a better fighter

Blue Beetle vs Punisher = no idea

Shiva vs Elektra = depends if Elektra uses her powers or not, if not then Shiva would destroy her

Deadshot vs Bullseye = Deadshot. Better equipment, faster reflexes

#7 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

Which Black Panther is this?

#8 Edited by Maniac2312 (927 posts) - - Show Bio
@WillPayton said:

Team battle. NO morals, everyone highly motivated to win. Wins by death. Teams start at opposite sides of a large abandoned aircraft factory. Each team also gets basic information about the opponents and terrain, and 10 minutes to work out their strategy.

Everyone has standard equipment for a random encounter.

DC team:

Batman (leader), Nightwing, Batgirl, Green Arrow, Wildcat, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Lady Shiva, Deadshot

Marvel team:

Captain America (leader), Daredevil, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Punisher, Elektra, Bullseye

Which team ends up victorious? Also, for winning team, how many characters survive?

Both teams are gonna have their snipers kept back, for DC that's G.A and Deadshot, but Marvel COULD keep Punisher up high with Hawkeye and Bullseye. "Snipers" goes to Marvel. Unfortunately that leaves Marvel one short on the floor but that's ok, extra sniper = extra long range kill shot.  Batman would have his snipers try for DD and Cap first as they could cause the most trouble in h2h due to their abilities. Cap would have his men take shots (I say "try for" and "take shots at" because we all know both these teams regularly "jump bullets") at the ladies (Bullseye would love this part) due to their body reading.  Punisher, as a third Marvel sniper, would be scoping out DC's snipers between shots at Batman. 
While that half of the participants are busy it leaves DC with a distinct advantage on the floor (depending on who/how many are put down in the initial shooting salvo) of 4 - 3.  Of these Black Panther would have his hands full with Batman and/or Nightwing, Back Widow would stand the best chance against Kord while Elektra would take on Wildcat. 
 
Could say a lot more but then it'll just be to wordy, but hope I gave something to think about, so I'll give my conclusion that Marvel would win due to that extra sniper (Punisher) who is much better in h2h than DC's snipers in h2h [imo] if it came to that. In that vein, he would make an excellent stealth attacker if he's team started going down to fast. 
 
OH and survivors would be Punisher and Bullseye (if he can keep his ego in check and just does his job).
#9 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin said:

Which Black Panther is this?

Uhmm, I didnt know there were different versions. I guess the regular, standard version. =)

#10 Posted by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton: Which Batgirl is this?

#11 Edited by 202122 (1145 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dex_Starr said:

DC team:

Batman (leader), Nightwing, Batgirl, Green Arrow, Wildcat, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Lady Shiva, Deadshot

Marvel team:

Captain America (leader), Daredevil, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Punisher, Elektra, Bullseye

Cap vs Bats = could go either way

Nightwing vs Daredevil = Daredevil after a good fight

Batgirl vs Widow = Batgirl effortlessly, Widow is a joke

Green Arrow vs Hawkeye = Green Arrow, better archery feats IMO

Wildcat vs Panther = Panther easily, stronger faster and a better fighter

Blue Beetle vs Punisher = no idea

Shiva vs Elektra = depends if Elektra uses her powers or not, if not then Shiva would destroy her

Deadshot vs Bullseye = Deadshot. Better equipment, faster reflexes

This except Nightwing over DD, Hawkeye over GA and Blue Beetle kicks the punisher's arse

This leaves Cap, Hawkeye and BP Vs Batman, Nightwing, Batgirl, BB, Shiva and Deadshot

DC wins but i feel that Hawkeye and BP could do serious damage

oh and survivors are Nightwing because Batman would be main target, BB and Shiva

#12 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

Bullseye and Daredevil on the same team with no morals? Talk about overkill. Bullseye will kill Wildcat from the beginning as he has no armor or dodging feats on Bullseye's level. DD just straight up disappears and takes down both the snipers. That is 3 people out of the game before team DC even gets close enough to deal any real damage.

At this point Hawkeye engages Nightwing while Black Panther takes on Shiva. Elektra and Black Widow both take down Cassie. Cap then takes on the Bat. Punisher stalls Blue Beetle long enough for someone else to win their fight.

Either way, Marvel has multiple superhumans and a significant equipment advantage as well as an equivalent level of skill. Marvel should win this.

#13 Posted by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

Just one point here, regarding the Team Leaders.

As people have accurately pointed out, Batman is the greater strategist of the two. However, being the better strategist is totally and utterly useless in this particular scenario, since it is a "random encounter", with no prep.

Strategy is the plan you make before the fight starts. Tactics, is what you use during the fight.

And Captain America is the better tactician of the two.

To put it in more simple terms. Batman is far better at planning and preparing, but Cap is far better at thinking on his feet. In this scenario, planning and preparing is useless.

For now, I won't comment on the rest of them.

#14 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@SirMethos said:

Just one point here, regarding the Team Leaders.

As people have accurately pointed out, Batman is the greater strategist of the two. However, being the better strategist is totally and utterly useless in this particular scenario, since it is a "random encounter", with no prep.

Strategy is the plan you make before the fight starts. Tactics, is what you use during the fight.

And Captain America is the better tactician of the two.

To put it in more simple terms. Batman is far better at planning and preparing, but Cap is far better at thinking on his feet. In this scenario, planning and preparing is useless.

For now, I won't comment on the rest of them.

It's a random encounter in that they dont know ahead of time it was going to happen, so no special equipment or training for this. However, they have 10 minutes before the battle starts to plan, so strategy definitely comes into play.

#15 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin said:

Which Black Panther is this?

Just the normal version from the comics.

Seems so far that we're split on which team wins. Some say DC, some Marvel.

As far as the ranged weapon advantage of team Marvel, remember the battle takes place inside an abandoned aircraft factory. So while there is a very large open space, there's also lots of places to hide and take cover, as well as all the side rooms, corridors, etc. The fight doesnt take place outside.

#16 Posted by Illuminatus (9503 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton: Well, Black Panther has gone through some phases of power/armors/gear throughout the years. For a while, he had the heart-shaped herb, and then he had a vibranium suit, etc.

#17 Posted by TDK_1997 (14651 posts) - - Show Bio

Team DC.

#18 Posted by beatboks1 (7090 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dex_Starr said:

DC team:

Batman (leader), Nightwing, Batgirl, Green Arrow, Wildcat, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Lady Shiva, Deadshot

Marvel team:

Captain America (leader), Daredevil, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Punisher, Elektra, Bullseye

Cap vs Bats = could go either way

Nightwing vs Daredevil = Daredevil after a good fight

Batgirl vs Widow = Batgirl effortlessly, Widow is a joke

Green Arrow vs Hawkeye = Green Arrow, better archery feats IMO

Wildcat vs Panther = Panther easily, stronger faster and a better fighter

Blue Beetle vs Punisher = no idea

Shiva vs Elektra = depends if Elektra uses her powers or not, if not then Shiva would destroy her

Deadshot vs Bullseye = Deadshot. Better equipment, faster reflexes

Cap vs Bats - Agreed, always an either or situation and a long fought battle

Nightwing vs Daredevil - Honestly I don't see it being that good a fight. Matt should wreck Dick pretty quickly.

Batgirl vs Widow - Widow isn't a joke at all. She has some damn good feats lately. I'd say this depends on Which Batgirl. If Cass its Bat's in a close one if Bab's she get owned. Remember Natasha has her own version of the SSS and is peak human

Green Arrow vs Hawkeye - another either way scenario really. Clint has feats to match Ollie's best. It goes to Ollie if it get's close with his H2H capability after Natas training. at a distance it can go to either one

Wildcat vs Panther - Panther takes this pretty quickly (unless it's the useless depowered one) Only chance Ted has is if T'Challa kills him and he comes back with a new life and bushwacks him.

Blue Beetle vs Punisher - Punisher should take this because of being more brutal. Ted's compressed air gun could knock Frank down long enough for him to close the distance and make it H2H where he would have a better chance but I'd say still fall in the end.

Shiva vs Elektra - I'd agree on this one too.

Deadshot vs Bullseye - yeah but I can see Bullseye wining some too. both have unbelievable accuracy feats.

Since there are two that definitely go to Marvel and only one (if it's Cass) that definitely goes to DC with another that might and all the others either way chances I'd actually lean toward Marvel

#19 Posted by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton: My bad, I missed the 10 mins of planning time.

Since it's pretty equal in terms of combat skills, it pretty much comes down to the leadership.

Cap is a good enough leader, and aware enough of his own limits, that he'll let those on his team that are better suited for it, do the planning/strategics, while he handles the tactical leadership himself.

Is Batman willing to let someone else take over the tactical leadership during the fight? 'cos that's really the main weakness of the DC team. While Batman is a brilliant strategist, Nightwing is a much better tactician(possibly Green Arrow as well).

The main strategists on the Marvel team is Black Panther and Punisher.

Chances are that it's not going to be 1on1 fights, as people seem to think. It's much more likely that both teams are going to attempt to quickly take out some of the members of the opposing team, while protecting their own 'heavy hitters'.

#20 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

@WillPayton: Which Batgirl is this?

Cassandra Cain

#21 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@SirMethos said:

@WillPayton: My bad, I missed the 10 mins of planning time.

Since it's pretty equal in terms of combat skills, it pretty much comes down to the leadership.

Cap is a good enough leader, and aware enough of his own limits, that he'll let those on his team that are better suited for it, do the planning/strategics, while he handles the tactical leadership himself.

Is Batman willing to let someone else take over the tactical leadership during the fight? 'cos that's really the main weakness of the DC team. While Batman is a brilliant strategist, Nightwing is a much better tactician(possibly Green Arrow as well).

The main strategists on the Marvel team is Black Panther and Punisher.

Chances are that it's not going to be 1on1 fights, as people seem to think. It's much more likely that both teams are going to attempt to quickly take out some of the members of the opposing team, while protecting their own 'heavy hitters'.

I agree that people keep analyzing this as a series of 1-on-1 fights. Why? This is a team battle with highly skilled leaders, in a complex environment. Do people think they'd all just go to an empty space, pair up, and fight it out? I dont think so.

As far as Batman's approach to the tactical/leadership situation, my guess is that he'd plan out the strategy and divide the group into "teams". One team would be the "main force" with maybe Green Arrow (leader), Blue Beetle, and Wildcat whose purpose would be to draw the enemy out by making themselves conspicuous. In a sense they'd be the worm to bait the enemy. Then he'd probably let Deadshot go on his own as sniper, and let the rest also split up using their stealth capabilities. This is what I would do, since the DC team has the advantage in stealth (IMO).

#22 Posted by TAneT62 (1059 posts) - - Show Bio

Team marvel, though Members from DC would beat some of Marvels team.

#23 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

DC does not have the advantage in stealth. Batman doesn't have crap on Daredevil. Daredevil can literally never be seen unless he desires to be seen. His Radar sense allows him to know where every person on the battlefield is and has the Ninja training to back it up. There is no one in this battle with his level of stealth especially if Batman is engaging Captain America.

#24 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin said:

DC does not have the advantage in stealth. Batman doesn't have crap on Daredevil. Daredevil can literally never be seen unless he desires to be seen. His Radar sense allows him to know where every person on the battlefield is and has the Ninja training to back it up. There is no one in this battle with his level of stealth especially if Batman is engaging Captain America.

Why would Batman be engaging Captain America? Are you one of the people that think they'll all go out in the open and have a big ol' brawl?

#25 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

Did you read my previous posts? Captain America will make Batman engage him to keep him busy while Bullseye and Daredevil take out the enemy.

#26 Edited by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin said:

DC does not have the advantage in stealth. Batman doesn't have crap on Daredevil. Daredevil can literally never be seen unless he desires to be seen. His Radar sense allows him to know where every person on the battlefield is and has the Ninja training to back it up. There is no one in this battle with his level of stealth especially if Batman is engaging Captain America.

Batman has better stealth feats than Daredevil does. Unless Daredevil can literally vanish 5 feet in front of someone, vanish before a light speeder can fight him, or hide from an entire team of superheroes, than Daredevil doesn't have any comparable stealth feats.

#27 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin said:

Did you read my previous posts? Captain America will make Batman engage him to keep him busy while Bullseye and Daredevil take out the enemy.

I dont see how Cap would be able to convince Batman to go out in the open where he can get a bullet to the head. Also, Batman will be fighting smart and using his advantages to the maximum, which means using his stealth, intelligence, and equipment to set up traps, etc.

I see this being a battle of stealth and them staying to areas with cover until one of the snipers gets taken out.

#28 Posted by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin said:

Bullseye and Daredevil on the same team with no morals? Talk about overkill.

Why is it overkill? Bullseye isn't even the best marksman in this fight and Daredevil isn't the best fighter either.

@DedmanWalkin said:

Bullseye will kill Wildcat from the beginning as he has no armor or dodging feats on Bullseye's level. DD just straight up disappears and takes down both the snipers. That is 3 people out of the game before team DC even gets close enough to deal any real damage

And Deadshot will kill Widow and Punisher who have no dodging feats on Deadshot's level. DD disappears, Batman does the same thing [his stealth feats eclipse Daredevil's] and takes down Hawkeye and Bullseye. So you have Cap, Daredevil, Elektra, Black Panther vs Bats, Batgirl, Nightwing, Shiva, Green Arrow

This all depends on weather Panther has his vibranium suit or not. With it Marvel team would win, without it, no one on the Marvel team can beat Shiva or Batgirl, the best Cap can do is take a 50/50 split with Bats. Shiva beats Elektra easily unless Elektra has her powers, Daredevil even with morals off can't beat Cassandra, Panther could beat Nightwing and Ollie but by it'd be Cap and Panther vs Shiva Batgirl and Bats in which they get wrecked.

#29 Posted by entropy_aegis (15098 posts) - - Show Bio

Um Blue Beetle? and enough with Cap's so called tactics.BP is the smart guy on his team not Cap.

#30 Posted by beatboks1 (7090 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

I agree that people keep analyzing this as a series of 1-on-1 fights. Why? This is a team battle with highly skilled leaders, in a complex environment. Do people think they'd all just go to an empty space, pair up, and fight it out? I dont think so.

As far as Batman's approach to the tactical/leadership situation, my guess is that he'd plan out the strategy and divide the group into "teams". One team would be the "main force" with maybe Green Arrow (leader), Blue Beetle, and Wildcat whose purpose would be to draw the enemy out by making themselves conspicuous. In a sense they'd be the worm to bait the enemy. Then he'd probably let Deadshot go on his own as sniper, and let the rest also split up using their stealth capabilities. This is what I would do, since the DC team has the advantage in stealth (IMO).

It's not that people think they will get into a space, it's the way a battle of even numbered opponents with limited range attacks will always come down. It's the way it happens in every ream battle in the history of comics, and as a former rifle specialist for the S.A.S it's the way it happens in real battle. With a ranged weapon (and I can, with a 303 rifle and the right scope hit a target at around a 1000 meters) you would naturally try to pick off your enemy from a distance, but when you have no such range it's safer (and smarter) to match off, relying on your team mates to cover your back. Trying to double team one member of an equal size force usually means you've left two backs exposed to an unseen enemy and two will fall, making the odds that much more against you. When out numbered you usually choose a more sheltered approach. One that limits the possible angle an attack can come from so that you can focus attention in a limited range (relying then on the terrain as it were to cover your back)

Seriously !! you think stealth is going to work for DC here ? You've given the Marvel team 4 members with essentially counter stealth abilities. Both Daredevil and T'challa can hear a heart beat across the street and a few stories up. Natasha and Steve also have peak human attributes in all areas including senses and healing. T'Challa can see in the dark, DD has a radar sense. DD and T'challa both have super smell. Bat's achieves his stealth by the same means of misdirection as most. You can't misdirect people who can hear and track your heart, smell your sweat from distances away. Natasha and T'challa are also equal in stealth to bat's and therefore above the rest of team DC (maybe just above Nightwing). So there is no stealth advantage for DC at all. If Bruce thinks he's got a sneak attack going down he's going to be seriously surprised when it all falls apart.

You gave team Marvel four highly capable strategists, while DC only two. T'challa has out maneuvered Dr Doom in tactics, and many other great minds. Natasha has more experience than most in this (including Captain America) and is also a pretty damn good field tactician. Three of team Marvel have super human or near Super Human physicals in strength, speed, reflex, durability and healing, while all of team DC are normal or Olympic level (you can't count Wildcat's healing because he actually has to die before regenerating). Steve Rogers has gotten back on his feet after falling from a plane ad a couple of hundred feet onto a car without injury. Natasha and T'challa have the same level of durability or more. With Shiva and Cass's movement reading that can compensate in a way for the physical advantages that the others have.

So unfortunately any tactic involving stealth for DC is only going to backfire because the team Marvel will see/hear/smell it coming. Since Bat's is going to know about his opponents he's going to know that it will get his goose cooked and not use it. Also knowing the tactical capability of his enemy he'll likely think that they will be more likely to get caught flat footed with a front on approach because they may focus those senses (in short diverted ) on seeking out an expected ambush that's not forthcoming. the success in this way will depend on who can more laterally think ( if T'Challa thinks for example that - he's going to know what we can do and come straight on hoping we'll be looking elsewhere for a trap etc etc.

#31 Posted by Bo88gdan (4393 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Marvel wins

#32 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5347 posts) - - Show Bio
@beatboks1

@WillPayton said:

I agree that people keep analyzing this as a series of 1-on-1 fights. Why? This is a team battle with highly skilled leaders, in a complex environment. Do people think they'd all just go to an empty space, pair up, and fight it out? I dont think so.

As far as Batman's approach to the tactical/leadership situation, my guess is that he'd plan out the strategy and divide the group into "teams". One team would be the "main force" with maybe Green Arrow (leader), Blue Beetle, and Wildcat whose purpose would be to draw the enemy out by making themselves conspicuous. In a sense they'd be the worm to bait the enemy. Then he'd probably let Deadshot go on his own as sniper, and let the rest also split up using their stealth capabilities. This is what I would do, since the DC team has the advantage in stealth (IMO).

It's not that people think they will get into a space, it's the way a battle of even numbered opponents with limited range attacks will always come down. It's the way it happens in every ream battle in the history of comics, and as a former rifle specialist for the S.A.S it's the way it happens in real battle. With a ranged weapon (and I can, with a 303 rifle and the right scope hit a target at around a 1000 meters) you would naturally try to pick off your enemy from a distance, but when you have no such range it's safer (and smarter) to match off, relying on your team mates to cover your back. Trying to double team one member of an equal size force usually means you've left two backs exposed to an unseen enemy and two will fall, making the odds that much more against you. When out numbered you usually choose a more sheltered approach. One that limits the possible angle an attack can come from so that you can focus attention in a limited range (relying then on the terrain as it were to cover your back)

Seriously !! you think stealth is going to work for DC here ? You've given the Marvel team 4 members with essentially counter stealth abilities. Both Daredevil and T'challa can hear a heart beat across the street and a few stories up. Natasha and Steve also have peak human attributes in all areas including senses and healing. T'Challa can see in the dark, DD has a radar sense. DD and T'challa both have super smell. Bat's achieves his stealth by the same means of misdirection as most. You can't misdirect people who can hear and track your heart, smell your sweat from distances away. Natasha and T'challa are also equal in stealth to bat's and therefore above the rest of team DC (maybe just above Nightwing). So there is no stealth advantage for DC at all. If Bruce thinks he's got a sneak attack going down he's going to be seriously surprised when it all falls apart.

You gave team Marvel four highly capable strategists, while DC only two. T'challa has out maneuvered Dr Doom in tactics, and many other great minds. Natasha has more experience than most in this (including Captain America) and is also a pretty damn good field tactician. Three of team Marvel have super human or near Super Human physicals in strength, speed, reflex, durability and healing, while all of team DC are normal or Olympic level (you can't count Wildcat's healing because he actually has to die before regenerating). Steve Rogers has gotten back on his feet after falling from a plane ad a couple of hundred feet onto a car without injury. Natasha and T'challa have the same level of durability or more. With Shiva and Cass's movement reading that can compensate in a way for the physical advantages that the others have.

So unfortunately any tactic involving stealth for DC is only going to backfire because the team Marvel will see/hear/smell it coming. Since Bat's is going to know about his opponents he's going to know that it will get his goose cooked and not use it. Also knowing the tactical capability of his enemy he'll likely think that they will be more likely to get caught flat footed with a front on approach because they may focus those senses (in short diverted ) on seeking out an expected ambush that's not forthcoming. the success in this way will depend on who can more laterally think ( if T'Challa thinks for example that - he's going to know what we can do and come straight on hoping we'll be looking elsewhere for a trap etc etc.

Damn. Wow. I was going with Team Marvel anyway but this seals it for me.
#33 Posted by tootyghost (139 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer and his buddies Galactus and Thanos win.

#34 Edited by knighthood (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

Team battle. NO morals, everyone highly motivated to win. Wins by death. Teams start at opposite sides of a large abandoned aircraft factory. Each team also gets basic information about the opponents and terrain, and 10 minutes to work out their strategy.

Everyone has standard equipment for a random encounter.

DC team:

Batman (leader), Nightwing, Batgirl, Green Arrow, Wildcat, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Lady Shiva, Deadshot

Marvel team:

Captain America (leader), Daredevil, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Punisher, Elektra, Bullseye

Which team ends up victorious? Also, for winning team, how many characters survive?

  • Batman vs. Cap: Bat wins this every time. The prep time only improves Batman's chances.
  • Nightwing vs. Daredevil: This could be a draw. I would favor Daredevil and his radar senses.
  • Batgirl vs. Black Widow: Again another possible draw. I would favor Barbara because she has more tech.
  • Green Arrow vs. Hawkeye, Lady Shiva vs. Elektra, and Deadshot vs. Bullseye: These are draws. I favor none of the combatants.
  • Wildcat vs. Black Panther: Another possible draw. I would favor Black Panther for his stealth.
  • Blue Beetle vs. Punisher: This is the deciding factor in this battle. The Beetle and more versatile and can be a killing machine.

Team DC wins

(edit: I didn't notice the Batgirl = Cain post until after I posted, still wouldn't sway my opinion much)

(2nd edit: I based my prediction on the Beetle vs. Punisher match up. I had the wrong Beetle in mind, my fault.)

#35 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@knighthood: You really think Elektra and Widow can stalemate Shiva and Cassandra?

Cassandra would slaughter widow, Elektra might last 10 seconds against shiva.

#36 Posted by Saren (25573 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm too lazy to evaluate the role played by strategy, team work, blah blah, so I'm just going to do a straight matchup.

Batman vs Captain America: I've always maintained that Bruce's gear would handle and overcome Steve's physical edge, and he has the edge in skill to boot.

Nightwing vs Daredevil: Matt would win every single time, he outclasses Dick.

Batgirl vs Black Widow: Not even a contest. Cass would wreck Widow 12 times out of 10.

Green Arrow vs Hawkeye: I'll assume they're equals in terms of marksmanship and give Ollie the H2H win.

Wildcat vs Black Panther: T'Challa all day, every day.

Blue Beetle vs Punisher: I feel bad for Ted.

Lady Shiva vs Elektra: Shiva. LOL.

Deadshot vs Bullseye: Again, assuming they're equals in terms of marksmanship, Floyd's gear and armor should give the edge.

Moderator
#37 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

I'm too lazy to evaluate the role played by strategy, team work, blah blah, so I'm just going to do a straight matchup.

Batman vs Captain America: I've always maintained that Bruce's gear would handle and overcome Steve's physical edge, and he has the edge in skill to boot.

Nightwing vs Daredevil: Matt would win every single time, he outclasses Dick.

Batgirl vs Black Widow: Not even a contest. Cass would wreck Widow 12 times out of 10.

Green Arrow vs Hawkeye: I'll assume they're equals in terms of marksmanship and give Ollie the H2H win.

Wildcat vs Black Panther: T'Challa all day, every day.

Blue Beetle vs Punisher: I feel bad for Ted.

Lady Shiva vs Elektra: Shiva. LOL.

Deadshot vs Bullseye: Again, assuming they're equals in terms of marksmanship, Floyd's gear and armor should give the edge.

I'd go along with this. If they did end up matching like this, then after that initial fighting the DC team still has Deadshot alive and shooting, and generally the numbers advantage. That means he probably takes out Punisher next, while Batman takes out Daredevil. The rest easily take out Black Panther. I'll give DC the win based on this.

#38 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

Misdirection =/= Stealth just because you can disappear in front of someone's eyes it does not mean you are stealthy. David Copperfield has disappeared in front of thousands of watching eyes before and he is by no means a stealthy guy just a stage magician who uses misdirection. Daredevil on the other hand can track everyone on the opposing team and simply not be within their sight lines at all times making him functionally invisible. He was trained in the ways of the ninja so he not only knows how to do this but his radar sense makes him flawless.

Bullseye is the best marksman here hands down. His low end feats are on par with Ollie and Deadshot and his high end feats are so ridiculous that it borders on the impossible. In close quarters with any number of thrown weapons, he'll be able to ricochet his projectiles in ways that Ollie and Deadshot can't especially given that he'll know exactly where they are thanks to his friends Daredevil and Black Panther. If Daredevil and Bullseye both decided to go stealth, they could kill everyone here and there would be nothing Team DC could do.

Batman won't be able to not fight Captain America as Black Panther will tell him exactly where he is and what he is doing. Cap's Shield and reflexes mean that he will make it to Batman alive and take him out of contention.

Punisher and Black Widow are both more than capable of tanking or dodging bullets. Punisher wears a variety of bullet resistant items and has an incredibly high pain tolerance while Widow has peak human healing, durability, and pain tolerance as well as reflexes and speed enough to help her stay out of the way. Both are more than capable of playing through the pain if they should get hit. The Punisher knows the value of cover and should have no problem finding some and using it to lay down suppressive fire or lob a couple of grenades. He won't be taken as easily as Wildcat who is practically useless unless in range. Black Widow is also a trained soldier and carries gas grenades to obscure her taking Ollie out the equation.

Clint beats the crap out a Ollie. His acrobatics and multiple weapon mastery will give him an edge. Ollie's only got hand to hand, sword, and bow skills while Hawkeye has hand to hand, acrobatics, sword, nunchaku, bow, gun, and a myriad of different weapons that he can all bring to bear. Also, Clint is more than willing to fight dirty should the need arise.

#39 Posted by lantian1 (161 posts) - - Show Bio

Giving basic information

Wouldm't batman's primary objective be to disable Marvels senses

Sonic's, gas and various other devices he carries with him.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the first things he does is deploy smoke or stun grenades

#40 Posted by knighthood (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

A blind and stunned Daredevil could be dealt with really quickly. Perhaps Bruce should focus on Matt and leave Cap to Dick.

#41 Posted by SexualLobster (995 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel.

Black Panther, Cap, DD = amazing team.

#42 Posted by beatboks1 (7090 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin said:

Bullseye is the best marksman here hands down. His low end feats are on par with Ollie and Deadshot and his high end feats are so ridiculous that it borders on the impossible. In close quarters with any number of thrown weapons, he'll be able to ricochet his projectiles in ways that Ollie and Deadshot can't especially given that he'll know exactly where they are thanks to his friends Daredevil and Black Panther.

Ok I agree Bullseye is the best marksman but Deadshots high end feats are more middle tier of Bullseye's than low end. he has shot at range and knocked Enchantress out with a bullet that creased her skull (causing no lasting damage). When I say at range I mean that his team mates needed field glasses to even see the target. Yes Lester has better close range feats but he can't match Floyd for range. neither can either of the archers and Frank castle isn't in that league as a marksman. So there is going to be a distinct range advantage to Floyd over Lester. Remembering also that Floyd has tagged DC Speedsters on several occasions, so any of Lester dodging feats aren't cutting it (there's no way he could close the distance enough to re-take the advantage).

Clint beats the crap out a Ollie. His acrobatics and multiple weapon mastery will give him an edge. Ollie's only got hand to hand, sword, and bow skills while Hawkeye has hand to hand, acrobatics, sword, nunchaku, bow, gun, and a myriad of different weapons that he can all bring to bear. Also, Clint is more than willing to fight dirty should the need arise.

I'd argue that one two. Since his Natas training Ollie ids LOT better in H2H and that in and of itself will take care of the nunchaku and "myriad different weapons". Ollies sword skill would only match Clint's (is his training from Swordsman still canon) but with the bow he has a slight edge. Ollie spent near to a decade without the trick arrows, using nothing other than normal arrow shafts, During this time he actually turned from killing and used his arrows to disarm and incapacitate (this was after he'd killed for the first time and was seeking redemption under Grell) He faced numerous trained marksman who used guns and came out on top. He even used an arrow to shoot the gun sight of a sniper who had a bead on him from a high rise roof top (he was on the ground) first shot stopped the bullet heading his way the second hit the snipers gun sight and knocked the but of his gun into him knocking him out. Clint doesn't have archery feats that match this as (like Ollie normally) he only has to get his trick arrows in the vicinity to explode, gas, etc. During this run Ollie also wen to an ashram and was seeking to relinquish violence. he hadn't used a bow in months and was made to use one to get past it. he still hit bullseyes every time and was able to master several different styles of the bow ( Zen and Kyudo) in weeks (to level that normally takes years/decades). According to the monks that was because the bow truly was an extension of himself and a natural part of him in the way he used it. They said it may be several more life times before he would be ready to move beyond violence. Ollie also has no aversion to cheating or killing (he's done it several times and is one of the quickest in DC to cross that line)

@lantian1 said:

Giving basic information

Wouldm't batman's primary objective be to disable Marvels senses

Sonic's, gas and various other devices he carries with him.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the first things he does is deploy smoke or stun grenades

Contrary to popular belief DD isn't a wet limp to sonics just because of his senses. he falls to them when caught by surprise. Both team have basic knowledge and T'Challa is smart enough to expect and sonic attack from a team he knows carries it and will think it a good means to start. there are times when DD and BP etc have handled sonics quite easily when prepared , just like the would be here. Just like we can filter out sounds we don't want to hear (like if you live near a highway or airport you subconsciously don't notice the noise as much) people with enhanced hearing can and do and consciously do the same (DD does it every day or he's go insane )

@knighthood said:

A blind and stunned Daredevil could be dealt with really quickly. Perhaps Bruce should focus on Matt and leave Cap to Dick.

DD's always blind, he's even lost his radar sense a few times and he's never been dealt with easily because of either.

#43 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

This battle takes place in an abandoned aircraft factory not out in the open. There won't be a lot of open ground for Deadshot to use at range. At best, he may have something like maybe 50 feet but still well within Bullseye's kill range. Bullseye is far superior in environments like this. Were this outside in a city then maybe Deadshot's range would come into play but this is not. Tagging DC speedsters is not really that impressive as most are pretty stupid and have almost no real combat training. The Flash should be a ridiculously overpowered powerhouse but he is rarely more than nuisance to most people they face including his Rogues which have little problem hitting him.

I still don't think that Green Arrow could take Hawkeye. Hawkeye, as you said, is more likely to use trick arrows than Green Arrow since this is in character. He'll likely lead with a trick arrow and possibly injure him if not kill Ollie. Also, in my pairing, I had him taking on Nightwing and Daredevil killing both Deadshot and Ollie using stealth.

But again, team Marvel has actual Superhumans with high levels of skill and superior equipment, they should not lose here.

#44 Posted by beatboks1 (7090 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin:

50 FEET ?? we're talking about an aircraft factory. Something that might house as many a few dozen DC10 or 727's. try 500 to 1000 meters easy

There are arguments that can be made either way. Cass has defeated the likes of Slade who is physically on the level of the superior powered Marvel team members. Shiva regularly get's the better of her daughter and Ollie has also beaten Slade (who's every bit as skilled as if not more so than Hawkeye in guns and other weapons). I wouldn't say it's clear cut either way

#45 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

I am assuming that plane hulls are still there, if not then perhaps you may be right. We really need more information on the battlefield I suppose.

Ollie had incredible prep in his battle with Slade as well as entire city's infrastructure at his disposal. In a real battle, Slade demolishes Ollie. Slade was playing with Cass the whole time. I wouldn't give Cassie a victory against a serious Slade.

#46 Posted by beatboks1 (7090 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin said:

I am assuming that plane hulls are still there, if not then perhaps you may be right. We really need more information on the battlefield I suppose.

Ollie had incredible prep in his battle with Slade as well as entire city's infrastructure at his disposal. In a real battle, Slade demolishes Ollie. Slade was playing with Cass the whole time. I wouldn't give Cassie a victory against a serious Slade.

Slade has admitted in several of their encounters that cass is one of the few he's faced that he worries about. That's not playing.

#47 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassie herself said that Slade was playing with her. I'll give you that she is better than most street level humans that Slade normally makes look like children and he may have to bring his A game into a fight with her but he still should stomp her into the ground. Either way, Cass is surely a threat here but she is not unstoppable nor does she upset the balance of power. Bullseye could potentially take her out as predictive abilities don't mean crap to him

#48 Posted by Saren (25573 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1 said:

Ollie has also beaten Slade (who's every bit as skilled as if not more so than Hawkeye in guns and other weapons).

Ollie beat Slade in a fight that Slade entered with the intention of losing.

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#49 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@beatboks1 said:

Slade has admitted in several of their encounters that cass is one of the few he's faced that he worries about. 

Slade has never said that. Closest thing he's ever said to a compliment while referring to her is, "Oh, you're good."  On another occasion he compared Cassandra to own his daughter by saying the only way to beat her is either from a distance, or by playing mind games with her. Despite the fact that he has defeated Ravager half a dozen times with his bare hands. 
 
Deathstroke's word is notoriously unreliable.
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#50 Posted by WillPayton (9333 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin said:

This battle takes place in an abandoned aircraft factory not out in the open. There won't be a lot of open ground for Deadshot to use at range. At best, he may have something like maybe 50 feet but still well within Bullseye's kill range. Bullseye is far superior in environments like this. Were this outside in a city then maybe Deadshot's range would come into play but this is not. Tagging DC speedsters is not really that impressive as most are pretty stupid and have almost no real combat training. The Flash should be a ridiculously overpowered powerhouse but he is rarely more than nuisance to most people they face including his Rogues which have little problem hitting him.

@beatboks1 said:

@DedmanWalkin:

50 FEET ?? we're talking about an aircraft factory. Something that might house as many a few dozen DC10 or 727's. try 500 to 1000 meters easy

The battle field is an old, abandoned aircraft factory that looks like this, but without the aircraft in it:

So there are lots of large abandoned pieces of equipment left behind all over the factory floor, but no aircraft. Also, large parts are areas that were used as offices and large storage spaces, complete with rooms, corridors, cubicles, etc (see left side of building in photo). And, the ceiling is all rafters and trusses. It's daytime outside, so most of the space is lit, but there are also large areas that are poorly lit. Obviously, there's no artificial lighting at all inside.

The teams start on either end and cannot see each other at the start, due to the distance and all the equipment blocking the views.