DC superbiengs vs Marvel superbeings.

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chu42t

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#1  Edited By chu42t

DC: Michael Demiurgos, Imperiex, Anti-Monitor, Spectre, Mageddon, The Monitors, Lucifer Morningstar, and the Decreator

Marvel: The Celestials (30 of 'em), Galactus, Lord Chaos, Mistress Love and Master Hate, The Watchers, and The Living Tribunal.

They try to destroy/defend each other's multiverse.

Sorry I spelled beings wrong.

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kgb725

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Marvel I think

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mjolnirson

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Marvel in a hard fight.

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Jmarshmallow

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LT > Michael.

Imperiex > Galactus.

Anti-Monitor + The Monitors (I'm assuming Mandrakk?) > Celestials and Watchers.

Spectre > Lord Chaos.

Mistress Love and Master Hate > Mageddon + Decreator.

Marvel has two wins and DC has three. I guess DC wins.

Jmarshmallow

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Lord44

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So... mmm.. yeah.. You put in the Marvel Team the Entire race of Celestials.. It wasn't enough to put the Living Tribunal who can potentially solos, you put Billions of Celestials including the High Tiers like Dreaming Celestial, Fulcrum and Scathan the Approver.. seems legit!

Marvel Team MurderRapeStomps 10000/10.

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OrdinaryAlan

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Team Marvel wine IMO.

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Night4345

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DC is ridiculously outnumbered.

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MasterKungFu

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DC

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kgb725

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#9  Edited By kgb725
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Jmarshmallow

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@lord44: @kgb725: If I recall correctly, didn't Galactus take down a large amount of Celestials?

Considering that Anti-Monitor at full power is >>>>>>>>>>>>> Galactus, I'd wager Anti-Monitor could cut a good number down.

Maybe not ALL of them, but all the ones that we know of and that are named.

Jmarshmallow

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kgb725

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#11  Edited By kgb725

@jmarshmallow: No he beat one then the others formed up to one shot him

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CaptainBatman

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These kind of fights (omnipotent) with many characters could be extremely difficult to decide IMO

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Jmarshmallow

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#13  Edited By Jmarshmallow

@kgb725: Just one? Are you sure? I'll need to find that scan. I forget where it's from though..

Jmarshmallow

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kgb725

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@jmarshmallow: Yes it should have been 4 celestials Galactus kills one the rest one shot him

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bdelloidgrain2

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#15  Edited By bdelloidgrain2

LT > Michael.

Imperiex > Galactus.

Anti-Monitor + The Monitors (I'm assuming Mandrakk?) > Celestials and Watchers.

Spectre > Lord Chaos.

Mistress Love and Master Hate > Mageddon + Decreator.

Marvel has two wins and DC has three. I guess DC wins.

Jmarshmallow

I would argue that Michael is stronger than the Living Tribunal. Lord Chaos might be stronger than the Spectre, not too sure. Other than that, I think your right.

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Jmarshmallow

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#16  Edited By Jmarshmallow

@bdelloidgrain2: No way my dude.

Michael + Lucifer are equal to LT, but not Michael alone.

Spectre vs Lord Chaos is definitely arguable though.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@bdelloidgrain2: No way my dude.

Michael + Lucifer are equal to LT, but not Michael alone.

Spectre vs Lord Chaos is definitely arguable though.

Michael and Lucifer = to the Living Tribunal? That is absolutely not true. How do you argue that?

Lucifer by himself is a casual multiverse creator and along with Michael created everything DC/Vertigo.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@bdelloidgrain2: No way my dude.

Michael + Lucifer are equal to LT, but not Michael alone.

Spectre vs Lord Chaos is definitely arguable though.

No Caption Provided

Lucifer makes a creation.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@bdelloidgrain2: No way my dude.

Michael + Lucifer are equal to LT, but not Michael alone.

Spectre vs Lord Chaos is definitely arguable though.

Here is a quote from Comicvine's character bio showing how powerful Michael is:

The archangel Michael Demuirgos is the second most powerful being in creation, rivalled only by his bother Lucifer and surpassed only by their father Yahweh, the God of the Covenant who was the one who gave Michael the Demiurgic Power. The Demiurgic power is essentially the building block for everything. Even concepts such as magic, cosmic and primordial power, time, dreams, emotions, all fall under one big category that is the demiurgic power, and because Michael has infinite amounts of it.

It was Michael who created all the concepts that makes up the Multiverse, which he also created. Michaels power is on such a level that, if he wishes, he could destroy all of creation ten times over. In the event of his death or mortal wounding, Michael's body will erupt with a force as great as the Big Bang, an ability Lucifer used both to see off an army from Heaven and to create the energies he needed to shape his own Creation.

Here is a character bio from Comicvine showing Lucifer's power:

Lucifer is the second most powerful being in the DC universe. His 3 signature powers are The Lightbringer flames, his nigh-omniscience, and The Will of God. The flames can destroy almost anything and are unique hence the name Lightbringer. His nigh omniscience allows him to be 10 steps ahead of all others and know almost everything. His will can manipulate reality on any scale he so wishes. He also has various other powers like divine magic, soul creation, etc.

Even without his powers, Lucifer's intellect makes him a formidable adversary. While powerless in The House of Windowless Rooms he was able to manipulate the many gods in the realm who attacked him and drive them to their own deaths, and he is capable of manipulating demons to think against their nature, and even gods against their will. His manipulation skills makes him a walking Anti-Life Equation.

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Jmarshmallow

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@bdelloidgrain2: He did it on God’s orders, and he couldn’t do it without Michael. So creating DC/Vertigo isn’t a valid feat in regards to a fight between LT and him.

As to creating a multiverse, LT exists in all multiverses. Plural. So again, not really all that impressive from Lucifer who created one multiverse. See the proof here: https://m.imgur.com/8ccVJ8s

Either way, creating something isn’t a combat feat. Kinda irrelevant when talking about characters this high on the cosmic scale, since basically everyone on that level can casually warp/create/alter existence.

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Sungsam

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#21  Edited By Sungsam

@jmarshmallow said:

@bdelloidgrain2: He did it on God’s orders, and he couldn’t do it without Michael. So creating DC/Vertigo isn’t a valid feat in regards to a fight between LT and him.

As to creating a multiverse, LT exists in all multiverses. Plural. So again, not really all that impressive from Lucifer who created one multiverse. See the proof here: https://m.imgur.com/8ccVJ8s

Either way, creating something isn’t a combat feat. Kinda irrelevant when talking about characters this high on the cosmic scale, since basically everyone on that level can casually warp/create/alter existence.

Creating DC/Vertigo is a measurement of reality warping power all attuned to Nigh Omnipotence. What is Nigh Omnipotence? Almost all power.

LT existing in all Multiverses is nothing more than an Omnipresence/Range feat. I don't get it, you don't find Creation feats as alternative measures to Nigh Omnipotence as good feats but you think Omnipresence is a feat. It's not a feat, it's just a location. I hope you're not using the same method of thinking that VSBW peeps think.

What you can easily create, you can destroy or manipulate much of the time. Creation/Destruction are inseparable in reality warping and are keys to reality warping itself, and are important keys to all forms of Omnipotence and reality warping. But I can see why you would use this argument since LT has very poor creation feats and LT doesn't benefit from Creation tiering. Which is totally fine, but Creation feats are not to be ignored, especially since that's the type of arguments we use to justify TOAA's Omnipotence claims.

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TheHierarchy

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LT wins

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bdelloidgrain2

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@bdelloidgrain2: He did it on God’s orders, and he couldn’t do it without Michael. So creating DC/Vertigo isn’t a valid feat in regards to a fight between LT and him.

As to creating a multiverse, LT exists in all multiverses. Plural. So again, not really all that impressive from Lucifer who created one multiverse. See the proof here: https://m.imgur.com/8ccVJ8s

Either way, creating something isn’t a combat feat. Kinda irrelevant when talking about characters this high on the cosmic scale, since basically everyone on that level can casually warp/create/alter existence.

Creating the entire DC and Vertigo creation is a higher feat than anything the Living Tribunal has done (unless you can show me him creating Marvel). Also, your "he did it on God's orders" argument is invalid because the Living Tribunal operates solely on God's orders. He has absolutely no free will.

The Living Tribunal has not created the Marvel creation. Michael and Lucifer have created the DC creation. NOT the DC multiverse. They have created the entire DC creation which consists of at least two multiverses, the one Lucifer created for himself, and the main one.

Also, creating something irrelevant? Not necessarily, because it shows what scale these characters operate on. Living Tribunal existing in all multiverses is a feat of being nigh-omnipresence, not nigh-omnipotence.

Also, the last statement you said is very true. So how can you say that the Living Tribunal defeats Lucifer or Michael when all these characters operate on the same level. They are all nigh-omnipotent characters and all have an infinite amount of ways to kill each other.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@bdelloidgrain2: He did it on God’s orders, and he couldn’t do it without Michael. So creating DC/Vertigo isn’t a valid feat in regards to a fight between LT and him.

As to creating a multiverse, LT exists in all multiverses. Plural. So again, not really all that impressive from Lucifer who created one multiverse. See the proof here: https://m.imgur.com/8ccVJ8s

Either way, creating something isn’t a combat feat. Kinda irrelevant when talking about characters this high on the cosmic scale, since basically everyone on that level can casually warp/create/alter existence.

Also, listen to @sungsam. He knows way more about high-scale cosmology than me :)

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bdelloidgrain2

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@sungsam said:

@jmarshmallow said:

@bdelloidgrain2: He did it on God’s orders, and he couldn’t do it without Michael. So creating DC/Vertigo isn’t a valid feat in regards to a fight between LT and him.

As to creating a multiverse, LT exists in all multiverses. Plural. So again, not really all that impressive from Lucifer who created one multiverse. See the proof here: https://m.imgur.com/8ccVJ8s

Either way, creating something isn’t a combat feat. Kinda irrelevant when talking about characters this high on the cosmic scale, since basically everyone on that level can casually warp/create/alter existence.

Creating DC/Vertigo is a measurement of reality warping power all attuned to Nigh Omnipotence. What is Nigh Omnipotence? Almost all power.

LT existing in all Multiverses is nothing more than an Omnipresence/Range feat. I don't get it, you don't find Creation feats as alternative measures to Nigh Omnipotence as good feats but you think Omnipresence is a feat. It's not a feat, it's just a location. I hope you're not using the same method of thinking that VSBW peeps think.

What you can easily create, you can destroy or manipulate much of the time. Creation/Destruction are inseparable in reality warping and are keys to reality warping itself, and are important keys to all forms of Omnipotence and reality warping. But I can see why you would use this argument since LT has very poor creation feats and LT doesn't benefit from Creation tiering. Which is totally fine, but Creation feats are not to be ignored, especially since that's the type of arguments we use to justify TOAA's Omnipotence claims.

I absolutely agree with this!

Well said :)

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CarmineDcMarvel

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#26  Edited By CarmineDcMarvel

Mismatch due to entire race of Celestials that is too much when LT could possibly solo

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Jmarshmallow

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@sungsam: Hold your horses there buddy, I don’t believe Omnipresence is a valid combat feat either.

But if he finds creating a multiverse to be important, and LT hasn’t done that since in Marvel only TOAA created the Omniverse, LT’s most comparable feat would be to oversee multiple multiverses.

Second, and more importantly, your second claim is false. Creating =\= destroy. To use a very rudimentary metaphor, I can shape cement and mold it how I see fit. That doesn’t mean that I can break it with my bare hands. To be considered able to destroy a multiverse, you have to have done it.

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Jmarshmallow

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@bdelloidgrain2: Creating DC and Vertigo can’t be used here because he did it with Michael’s help, and Michael’s not in this fight.

Once again, creating something isn’t the same as destroying it. Destroying something can be used as a combat feat, creating something can not.

As for the last point, I brought it up because once you reach that level in the cosmic hierarchy EVERYONE can create anything with nigh-omnipotence. So really, with debates like this, all we have to use are actual combat feats to distinguish who would win.

And LT has better ones than Michael.

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RebuildofKojima

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Living Tribunal solos. Mismatch.

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Sungsam

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#30  Edited By Sungsam

But if he finds creating a multiverse to be important, and LT hasn’t done that since in Marvel only TOAA created the Omniverse, LT’s most comparable feat would be to oversee multiple multiverses.

Why is it that when DC backers use speculative "if" arguments and pass it off as feats, it's not okay, when you do it, it's okay?

I will reject this speculative logic just as Marvel fans rejected that Lucifer and Michael are equal to Presence despite on panel statement or the statements that say Lucifer is most powerful second to Presence who created the DC Multiverse. We can all play this game.

Second, and more importantly, your second claim is false. Creating =\= destroy. To use a very rudimentary metaphor, I can shape cement and mold it how I see fit. That doesn’t mean that I can break it with my bare hands. To be considered able to destroy a multiverse, you have to have done it.

You are comparing physical hands and molding clay with reality manipulation that molds metaphysical existence that forms the constructs of time and space back and forth. So your analogy doesn't fly.

You could just as well argue that TOAA can have his ass beaten by characters with actual Multiversal destruction feats like WF Mxy because TOAA has no feats of destroying Multiverse and only created it. Even though TOAA creating the Marvel Omniverse is the only feat of justification for his Omnipotence rating in battle boards.

Nobody actually agrees with your logic, not even you do, nor anyone who uses it given that it's only applied against Lucifer and Michael.

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Jmarshmallow

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@sungsam: I legitimately have no idea what you’re saying in the first paragraph. I explicitly said I don’t accept either. No “if” arguments are acceptable. Don’t know how you’re not grasping that.

Really not sure what the “Lucifer is #2” thing is supposed to prove either.

The point of an analogy is it doesn’t have to be to scale. Fact is, if he doesn’t have the feats of destroying multiverses, he can’t. Simple as that.

TOAA has feats confirming that he is above all else. So that logic doesn’t hold up. He has been shown on panel to be Jack Kirby, thus making him above comics since he’s the one who writes it. He’s been confirmed to be truly omnipotent, not just partially omnipotent, by several canon databooks. Multiple characters have confirmed his omnipotence. So it’s not the same, your point here is invalid.

Your last paragraph is unnecessarily aggressive, and brings nothing to this debate, so it doesn’t warrant a response.

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Sungsam

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#32  Edited By Sungsam

I legitimately have no idea what you’re saying in the first paragraph. I explicitly said I don’t accept either. No “if” arguments are acceptable. Don’t know how you’re not grasping that.

Your argument was that overseeing a Multiverse (which is just watching it) is as impressive as exerting reality warping power to creating a Multiverse. That's ridiculous. Exerting power to manipulate multiple time and space is better than overseeing it. So your argument is as iffy as possible, even worse so.

Really not sure what the “Lucifer is #2” thing is supposed to prove either.

I don't know, maybe because DC/Vertigo is ridden with tons of Multiversal abstracts and entities below Presence's creation and he's placed above them by statement? See? I won't use this argument, but do not use iffy arguments and I will use them as well.

The point of an analogy is it doesn’t have to be to scale. Fact is, if he doesn’t have the feats of destroying multiverses, he can’t. Simple as that.

TOAA has feats confirming that he is above all else. So that logic doesn’t hold up. He has been shown on panel to be Jack Kirby, thus making him above comics since he’s the one who writes it. He’s been confirmed to be truly omnipotent, not just partially omnipotent, by several canon databooks. Multiple characters have confirmed his omnipotence. So it’s not the same, your point here is invalid.

Being above everything else doesn't prove you can destroy Multiverses and is not a feat of destroying Multiverses and holds no more weight than statements for Lucifer and Michael being placed above everything else in DC that would include the likes of the Anti-Monitor, Mxy and Pralaya who are all Multiversal to varying degrees and certain circumstances. Not sure what being above everything else is supposed to prove either. Holds no more weight than when Lucifer backers use lip service arguments. These don't hold more weight than when we use the same for Michael and Lucifer, the former renews the Creation/Multiverse and the latter shapes it.

We can't use strict featism for characters at this level of power. I personally feel you're otherwise too strict for Lucifer and characters at this level of power.

We have multiple appearances of TOAA and they look nothing like Jack Kirby so this is inconsistent at best. I haven't seen any confirmation besides that scan that TOAA is Jack Kirby.

Your last paragraph is unnecessarily aggressive, and brings nothing to this debate, so it doesn’t warrant a response.

Boy, this again? I'm not interested in listening to your lecture about what you think is aggressive or not. Not touching that.

Look, I can respect that you might place Lucifer is below LT. At least you agree that Lucifer is Multiversal, I can even make arguments in support of LT against Lucifer and versa, but I just don't agree with your reasoning. That's all.

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cosmic_reign

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#33  Edited By cosmic_reign

Celestials ftw!

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bdelloidgrain2

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@bdelloidgrain2: Creating DC and Vertigo can’t be used here because he did it with Michael’s help, and Michael’s not in this fight.

Once again, creating something isn’t the same as destroying it. Destroying something can be used as a combat feat, creating something can not.

As for the last point, I brought it up because once you reach that level in the cosmic hierarchy EVERYONE can create anything with nigh-omnipotence. So really, with debates like this, all we have to use are actual combat feats to distinguish who would win.

And LT has better ones than Michael.

Lucifer has still created a multiverse without Michael's help and creation feats are greater than destruction feats. Living Tribunal has better feats than Michael? I still haven't seen any feat putting the Living Tribunal up there with Michael.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@sungsam: I legitimately have no idea what you’re saying in the first paragraph. I explicitly said I don’t accept either. No “if” arguments are acceptable. Don’t know how you’re not grasping that.

Really not sure what the “Lucifer is #2” thing is supposed to prove either.

The point of an analogy is it doesn’t have to be to scale. Fact is, if he doesn’t have the feats of destroying multiverses, he can’t. Simple as that.

TOAA has feats confirming that he is above all else. So that logic doesn’t hold up. He has been shown on panel to be Jack Kirby, thus making him above comics since he’s the one who writes it. He’s been confirmed to be truly omnipotent, not just partially omnipotent, by several canon databooks. Multiple characters have confirmed his omnipotence. So it’s not the same, your point here is invalid.

Your last paragraph is unnecessarily aggressive, and brings nothing to this debate, so it doesn’t warrant a response.

I just showed you a feat of Lucifer making a multiverse. Let me show you another. Oh, and by the way, still haven't seen the Living Tribunal create or destroy a multiverse.

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bdelloidgrain2

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Living Tribunal solos. Mismatch.

Oh come on! Are you serious? The Living Tribunal can solo Michael, Lucifer, Imperiex, Anti-Monitor, Spectre, Mageddon, the Monitors, and the Decreator? That is just plain wrong.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@sungsam: I legitimately have no idea what you’re saying in the first paragraph. I explicitly said I don’t accept either. No “if” arguments are acceptable. Don’t know how you’re not grasping that.

Really not sure what the “Lucifer is #2” thing is supposed to prove either.

The point of an analogy is it doesn’t have to be to scale. Fact is, if he doesn’t have the feats of destroying multiverses, he can’t. Simple as that.

TOAA has feats confirming that he is above all else. So that logic doesn’t hold up. He has been shown on panel to be Jack Kirby, thus making him above comics since he’s the one who writes it. He’s been confirmed to be truly omnipotent, not just partially omnipotent, by several canon databooks. Multiple characters have confirmed his omnipotence. So it’s not the same, your point here is invalid.

Your last paragraph is unnecessarily aggressive, and brings nothing to this debate, so it doesn’t warrant a response.

He has created the entire DC creation, consisting of infinite. He has created a multiverse, which is also infinite. I have shown you this feat, and you still haven't shown me the Living Tribunal's multiversal feats yet.

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Jmarshmallow

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@sungsam:

Your argument was that overseeing a Multiverse (which is just watching it)

Multiverses*

is as impressive as exerting reality warping power to creating a Multiverse. That's ridiculous. Exerting power to manipulate multiple time and space is better than overseeing it. So your argument is as iffy as possible, even worse so.

Actually my argument is that neither one of those are combat feats, and at that high on the cosmic hierarchy literally everyone can create basically everything. So actual combat feats should be used, not creation feats.

Somehow you must've missed that.

I don't know, maybe because DC/Vertigo is ridden with tons of Multiversal abstracts and entities below Presence's creation and he's placed above them by statement? See? I won't use this argument, but do not use iffy arguments and I will use them as well.

I still don't see what what I'm supposed to be "seeing," but sure. I'm not using iffy arguments, so all good here.

Being above everything else doesn't prove you can destroy Multiverses

Of course it does. That's literally what being omnipotent means.

We can't use strict featism for characters at this level of power. I personally feel you're otherwise too strict for Lucifer and characters at this level of power.

Course we can. Feats are the whole point of this forum. WoG and reliable character statements work as well.

We have multiple appearances of TOAA and they look nothing like Jack Kirby so this is inconsistent at best. I haven't seen any confirmation besides that scan that TOAA is Jack Kirby.

The entire FF comic the scan derives from IS the confirmation. One instance isevidence.

Boy, this again? I'm not interested in listening to your lecture about what you think is aggressive or not. Not touching that.

  1. I'm not sure if you know what not touching something means.
  2. If one sentence is a lecture for you, I'm sure conversations are difficult.
  3. I don't recall ever conversing with you.

Look, I can respect that you might place Lucifer is below LT. At least you agree that Lucifer is Multiversal, I can even make arguments in support of LT against Lucifer and versa, but I just don't agree with your reasoning. That's all.

If that's all, why tag me in the first place? I wasn't speaking to you, you responded to me in a conversation that didn't involve you.

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Jmarshmallow

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@bdelloidgrain2:

Lucifer has still created a multiverse without Michael's help and creation feats are greater than destruction feats.

Lol no they most certainly are not. I'd like to see Lucifer, or any character for that matter, use creation offensively.

I just showed you a feat of Lucifer making a multiverse. Let me show you another. Oh, and by the way, still haven't seen the Living Tribunal create or destroy a multiverse.

Here you go.

LT creating a Multiverse.

And an entry from the Databook that states he can wipe out universes.

I know, not a multiverse, but it's the best I could do. Not that I recall Lucifer ever busting a universe.

The main point here, mate, is that Lucifer has an equal in Michael. LT has no equal.

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TheTruthIII

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One of my posts from another thread. LT solos

Edited by TheTruthIII (2487 posts) - 3 months, 30 days ago - Show Bio

To everyone

I realize I have been on the defensive this whole time, attempting to dispel notions of Lucifer having omnipotent power or being able to appear in the world of Naruto and silly things like that. So a closer look at LT's feats...

Here's an official Marvel bio.

No Caption Provided

It confirms The Tribunal has one constant, singular existence in all of reality and possibly beyond, which is further substantiated by more on-panel evidence I've posted multiple times at this point.

No Caption Provided

And here's some more, on-panel feats depicting LT existing in all realities

The Bio also says Living Tribunal is above the concepts of Life and Death, something some people on this thread are vehemently arguing against. Here's some more scans

"I transcend the realms of Death" etc. He was killed by the Beyonders, yes, but so was the entire Marvel collection of multiverses. They would kill Lucifer and Michael without a second thought. You claim this Archangel is beyond death; then how is he put in absolute mortal danger when confronted by what amounts to an oversized Japanese spider?

At least it took several multiversal aliens to kill The Tribunal. Fairly certain The Beyonders >>>>>> Geisha cockroach. And before you jump me, yes I am aware he was severely weakened from being in the realm of this Japanese pantheon. But when you claim "Lucifer is beyond death in it's totality" then there can be no exceptions. The fact that he CAN be killed, no matter the scenario, shows he is not beyond death at all. In fact, LT was weakened by The Beyonders the same way Lucifer was weakened by being in that realm. It's confirmed by Brevoort himself that The Beyonders are like Kryptonite to abstracts.

No Caption Provided

So stop lowballing one and highballing the other.

Additionally, when battling The Beyonders, LT manifested as the multiverse itself. Lucifer exits multiverses, while, The Tribunal is a multiverse.

No Caption Provided

But back on topic. Not only is LT now proven to be casually multiversal, his power could actually be far beyond that. There always seems to be claims of Lucifer creating universes outside of the DC mainstream reality, and that somehow makes him stronger than LT. Foolish blasphemy at its finest. Remember the Brothers from the Marvel vs DC crossover event? TLT created them.

No Caption Provided

Yes, the event is considered non-canon, but I am 90% sure this particular scan is, as it's even mentioned in the official Marvel bio I posted above. Essentially, The Tribunal creates two entities who each rule over a collection of multiverses. The playthings of the Tribunal are megaversal.

Not only does he create megaversal characters from scratch, he also recreates universal and multiversal characters from nothing. After Warlock with the IG annihilates an entire room full of Abstracts, Tribunal calmly restores them with a snap of his fingers.

Please note that, in this rag-tag collection is Galactus, who apparently has shaken all of Creation, just like old Lucy himself

No Caption Provided

So LT casually recreated, according to the logic of some, a Lucifer level being and many superior ones. Please not that I obviously don't believe in this, just merely applying fallacious logic to highlight the ludicrousness.

Back to the topic of canonocity, please stop juicing the HoTU feat. Because guess what? It's not canon. Again, thank our god editor Breevort

No Caption Provided

It's been stated to occur in an alternate, non-canon universe

Moving on, here's a scan of LT displaying vast superiority to Eternity. There are literally a bajillion of these, several of which I have already posted.

No Caption Provided

This one is interesting because it literally shows Eternity is nothing more than a baby in the palm of a God, who can be easily discarded and replaced.

Apparently Eternity is now lowballed to "universal". He has plenty of multi-universal to even multiversal feats. For example...

The tiniest portion of Eternity contains countless universes and dimensions. Eternity's power allows Dormammu to affect every living thing in "all the universes". And , what's this?! The much applauded word "creation" appears yet again! With the Eternity's core one can become the supreme ruler of "all creation"! Eternity = Presence confirmed?! Sarcasm aside, Eternity is blatantly much higher than universal. And LT is far, far superior.

The Living Tribunal stomps Lucifer, and anyone who has cracked open a comic can verify this statement. I'm officially finished with the argument, others can judge based on the plethora of feats provided.

Good day

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Sungsam

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#41  Edited By Sungsam

@jmarshmallow said:

@sungsam:

Multiverses*

DC's Cosmology is implyingly composed of Multiverses as well.

Actually my argument is that neither one of those are combat feats, and at that high on the cosmic hierarchy literally everyone can create basically everything. So actual combat feats should be used, not creation feats.

Somehow you must've missed that.

I didn't miss that, and I knew your intention, but it falls short because that would be a false equivocation of Creating =/= Overseeing.

It would be good if Marvel's writers literally credited Marvel's Multiverses creation to LT and used that.

I still don't see what what I'm supposed to be "seeing," but sure. I'm not using iffy arguments, so all good here.

Hm.

Of course it does. That's literally what being omnipotent means.

You can be above everyone else in a verse and still not be Omnipotent. Look, I know and I apologize for derailing but I wanted to point out, that Omniversal Creation (which is a feat that TOAA has) is literally the primary justification for Omnipotence.

So why is it that manipulating a Multiverse wouldn't theoretically equate to being able to distort and destroy and dismantle it and equate to Nigh Omnipotence? I don't see it.

Course we can. Feats are the whole point of this forum. WoG and reliable character statements work as well.

And how would you define what would be reliable character statements?

Like for example, Dream describes Lucifer as perhaps the second most powerful being in all of existence, all of existence in DC includes Multiversal beings like Mxy, COIE Anti Monitor and Pralaya, so why wouldn't Lucifer scale to beings he is stated to include as being more powerful than? Wouldn't Lucifer also have Multiversal destruction? We already agree he has Multiversal creation.

And it's kind of depressing that Michael, who was threatening to destroy all of Creation upon his death (which is the DC Multiverse) needs to be proven to be able to destroy a Multiverse.

Or how Lucifer's power is equated as being equal to half of Presence's power who is DC's Supreme?

Look, I don't want to argue, I just want to see your arguments and standards. I might even use it.

The entire FF comic the scan derives from IS the confirmation. One instance isevidence.

Did it say that Jack Kirby was The One Above All? Or is it just a Marvel character being called "God" again and being associated with TOAA?

How would you respond if someone asked you that?

If that's all, why tag me in the first place? I wasn't speaking to you, you responded to me in a conversation that didn't involve you.

I merely disagree with the notion that we literally need to lowball DC Abstracts just to make Marvel Abstracts win. All that means is that you think LT is that weak. That is all.

I'm not interested in convincing you of anything, I merely want to understand how you think.

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Sungsam

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#42  Edited By Sungsam

@thetruthiii: Lucifer existing outside of Multiverses is not the only argument in support of him. An argument I wouldn't use. Assuming we use a DC/Vertigo Composite Cosmology to the fullest.

Lucifer burned Destiny's Metaversal Book casually and could have destroyed the whole thing.

No Caption Provided

Which contains all of existence.

No Caption Provided

Destiny and his book is depicted by DC's Official Cosmology map as being above the Main DC Multiverse. Here below, Destiny is placed as above DC's Multiverse.

No Caption Provided

Said Multiverse contains this. A Metaverse which likely exists inside the Bleed.

No Caption Provided

A Metaverse creates infinite universes for one universe in a multiverse every instant. For every moment and non-moment at a trans-universal scale.

Depending on interpretation, DC's Cosmology is extremely massive.

A second or an attosecond divided by an instant will result into an infinity of instants. So there are infinite chains of stackings of multiverses within multiverses and megaverses multiplied of chains by each universe multiplying into infinity every infinitesimal moment and non-moment created and is vastly above Megaversal.

As Instant is no time to infinitesimal of a time.

What is Multiversal in DC will become Megaversal, then Multi-Megaversal, then etc. and etc. into infinity stack chains megaverses multiplying, all arguably just within an instant to an nanosecond, millisecond, etc.

If we highball this, DC's Metaverse creates infinite numbers of infinite stackings of megaverses/multiverses every few moments only or infinite dimensional multiverses by a second.

The Metaverse exists within the Bleed Space (likely) which is below the Sphere of the Gods, Limbo that also contains a book containing all of that within Limbo, then the Monitor Sphere all placed under Destiny's book.

DC's Composite Multiverse interpretation is laughably above Megaversal and Infinite Dimensional, it's not even funny. It dwarfs LT and Eternity by miles, even if countless megaverses are a tiny part of Eternity's being, still not really much to a Metaversal defined Lucifer.

Lucifer and the Endless already have feats of operating at scales of Super-Multiversal levels containing and mass scale feats that vastly trumps anything LT or Eternity has done, and Lucifer's power is credited with creating all of that with Michael and the Presence. DC's Multiverse if highballed >>>> Marvel's Multiverse if highballed.

Look, I'm not saying Lucifer stomps LT, but you want to play megaversal infinity is bigger than infinity arguments, the DC side can play that game very well.

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One of my posts from another thread. LT solos

Edited by TheTruthIII (2487 posts) - 3 months, 30 days ago - Show Bio

To everyone

I realize I have been on the defensive this whole time, attempting to dispel notions of Lucifer having omnipotent power or being able to appear in the world of Naruto and silly things like that. So a closer look at LT's feats...

Here's an official Marvel bio.

No Caption Provided

It confirms The Tribunal has one constant, singular existence in all of reality and possibly beyond, which is further substantiated by more on-panel evidence I've posted multiple times at this point.

No Caption Provided

And here's some more, on-panel feats depicting LT existing in all realities

The Bio also says Living Tribunal is above the concepts of Life and Death, something some people on this thread are vehemently arguing against. Here's some more scans

"I transcend the realms of Death" etc. He was killed by the Beyonders, yes, but so was the entire Marvel collection of multiverses. They would kill Lucifer and Michael without a second thought. You claim this Archangel is beyond death; then how is he put in absolute mortal danger when confronted by what amounts to an oversized Japanese spider?

At least it took several multiversal aliens to kill The Tribunal. Fairly certain The Beyonders >>>>>> Geisha cockroach. And before you jump me, yes I am aware he was severely weakened from being in the realm of this Japanese pantheon. But when you claim "Lucifer is beyond death in it's totality" then there can be no exceptions. The fact that he CAN be killed, no matter the scenario, shows he is not beyond death at all. In fact, LT was weakened by The Beyonders the same way Lucifer was weakened by being in that realm. It's confirmed by Brevoort himself that The Beyonders are like Kryptonite to abstracts.

No Caption Provided

So stop lowballing one and highballing the other.

Additionally, when battling The Beyonders, LT manifested as the multiverse itself. Lucifer exits multiverses, while, The Tribunal is a multiverse.

No Caption Provided

But back on topic. Not only is LT now proven to be casually multiversal, his power could actually be far beyond that. There always seems to be claims of Lucifer creating universes outside of the DC mainstream reality, and that somehow makes him stronger than LT. Foolish blasphemy at its finest. Remember the Brothers from the Marvel vs DC crossover event? TLT created them.

No Caption Provided

Yes, the event is considered non-canon, but I am 90% sure this particular scan is, as it's even mentioned in the official Marvel bio I posted above. Essentially, The Tribunal creates two entities who each rule over a collection of multiverses. The playthings of the Tribunal are megaversal.

Not only does he create megaversal characters from scratch, he also recreates universal and multiversal characters from nothing. After Warlock with the IG annihilates an entire room full of Abstracts, Tribunal calmly restores them with a snap of his fingers.

Please note that, in this rag-tag collection is Galactus, who apparently has shaken all of Creation, just like old Lucy himself

No Caption Provided

So LT casually recreated, according to the logic of some, a Lucifer level being and many superior ones. Please not that I obviously don't believe in this, just merely applying fallacious logic to highlight the ludicrousness.

Back to the topic of canonocity, please stop juicing the HoTU feat. Because guess what? It's not canon. Again, thank our god editor Breevort

No Caption Provided

It's been stated to occur in an alternate, non-canon universe

Moving on, here's a scan of LT displaying vast superiority to Eternity. There are literally a bajillion of these, several of which I have already posted.

No Caption Provided

This one is interesting because it literally shows Eternity is nothing more than a baby in the palm of a God, who can be easily discarded and replaced.

Apparently Eternity is now lowballed to "universal". He has plenty of multi-universal to even multiversal feats. For example...

The tiniest portion of Eternity contains countless universes and dimensions. Eternity's power allows Dormammu to affect every living thing in "all the universes". And , what's this?! The much applauded word "creation" appears yet again! With the Eternity's core one can become the supreme ruler of "all creation"! Eternity = Presence confirmed?! Sarcasm aside, Eternity is blatantly much higher than universal. And LT is far, far superior.

The Living Tribunal stomps Lucifer, and anyone who has cracked open a comic can verify this statement. I'm officially finished with the argument, others can judge based on the plethora of feats provided.

Good day

This.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@jmarshmallow: Are you seriously trying to say that destroying something is more impressive than creating? I already showed you Lucifer and Michael creating DC creation, which is at least a Metaverse. Lucifer casually created a multiverse as well.

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bdelloidgrain2

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bdelloidgrain2

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@eeef: It is obvious you have never read a Lucifer comic or else you would know that he was firstly, depowered and mortal during that fight, secondly he still managed to recruit said "Japanese spider" to help him out.

Lucifer and Michael are responsible for creating the entire DC creation, which is at least a metaverse, consisting of infinite multiverse, consisting of infinite universes.

Lucifer tore a page from Destiny's book, which contains EVERYTHING!!

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bdelloidgrain2

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@thetruthiii: It is obvious you have never read a Lucifer comic or else you would know that he was firstly, depowered and mortal during that fight, secondly he still managed to recruit said "Japanese spider" to help him out.

Lucifer and Michael are responsible for creating the entire DC creation, which is at least a metaverse, consisting of infinite multiverse, consisting of infinite universes.

Lucifer tore a page from Destiny's book, which contains EVERYTHING!!

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bdelloidgrain2

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@thetruthiii: Also where did you get Megaversal characters from?

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#49  Edited By Sungsam

We haven't even scratched the surface yet. Scans below state that Heaven and Hell that is within the God Sphere pervading and transcending the Bleed/Metaverse/Hypertime, is a Multiverse, there are countless Heavens and a Universe for every soul from Earth.

If there are infinite Earths from the infinite megaverses and multiverses inside the DC Metaverse, and there are billions or trillions+ souls in each of those earths of the infinite megaverses, and they all pass to Heaven, then Heaven and Hell and Limbo are Super Metaverses.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Here, there's already indication that the Destiny of the Endless and his book vastly surpasses Marvel's Cosmology, vastly dwarfs LT and Eternity.

All of that, Lucifer could have destroyed while it was in Destiny's Multiversal book, Heaven and Hell (which is a concept in Vertigo) was also a Multiverse all this time.

So while you guys are hyping about your Multiverses and Megaverses and Eternity and LT, the DC Bleed which now likely contains Hypertime and the Metaverse which is LEAGUES even above infinity Multi-Megaverses, then God Sphere is this massive. All dwarfed by Limbo and Destiny's Book.

Regardless, all of that works in conjunction that it is within DC'S CREATION, and Lucifer and Michael shaped and created on behalf of the Presence's power, of DC's Creation, which is LEAGUES bigger than anything Marvel has. Even if we highball Marvel's Omniverse (which I have done a better job at doing more than any of you) it's not bigger or even close to how big DC is when you analyze it deeply. Which I have done.

So we have Lucifer shaping and manipulating the main DC Multiverse which is this large, and him nearly threatening to burn Destiny's book.

I've not seen anything you guys have shown that DC/Vertigo doesn't have.

You want to play Infinity is bigger than infinity arguments? You don't accept that Lucifer scales to all this cosmology? Doesn't matter, other DC Cosmics will and we will use this in another WF Mxy vs LT thread and a Destiny vs LT thread and etc. and etc.

Calling DC's Current Multiverse and Composite Multiverse as just being Multiversal or even Multi-Megaversal and Lucifer has had a hand in shaping it, is a severe lowball.

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bdelloidgrain2

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@jmarshmallow: That is not The Living Tribunal creating a multiiverse. That is him embodying a multiverse.