DC Strength ratings (DC Adventures: Heroes and Villains Vol. 1)

Here's from Volume 1 which I recently purchased. Agree? Disagree? Feedback is appreciated.

Amazo - 19

Ambush Bug - 0

Aquaman - 10

Ares - 16

Atom Smasher - 15/5*

Atomic Skull - 12

Atrocitus - 10

Big Barda - 15

Bizarro - 19

Black Adam - 19

Blackfire - 10

Blockbuster - 10

Blue Devil - 11

Booster Gold - 10

Brainiac - 13

Plasmus - 10

Captain Atom - 15

Captain Comet - 11

Captain Marvel - 19

Mary Marvel - 17

CM3 - 17

Chemo - 18

Colossal Boy - 14/2*

Superwoman - 16

Ultraman - 19

The Barracuda - 10

The White Martian - 16

Cyborg Superman - 19

Darkseid - 18

Granny Goodness - 11

Kalibak - 14

The Demon - 10 [My biggest entry to which I object, and also why I included 10 strength and less this time around]

Despero - 18

Doctor Fate - 10

Doomsday - 20

Elasti-Woman - 12/0*

Negative Man - 9/1*

Robotman - 10

Eclipso - 13

Eradicator - 19

Validus - 20

Mammoth - 14

The General - 18

General Zod - 18

Ursa - 17

Non - 20

Geo-Force - 13

Giganta - 16/4*

Gorilla Grodd - 9

Hourman (Rick Tyler) - 9/3*

Jemm - 12

Blackbriar Thorn - 2/14*

Isis - 16

Osiris - 16

Citizen Steel - 16

Kestrel - 9

Killer Croc - 10

There's a lot of mistakes. Killer Croc stronger than Grodd? Doomsday, Non, Cyborg Superman, Captain Marvel, Black Adam and Bizarro stronger than Despero?

@CitizenBane: Tell me about it. They lowball Etrigan with Blue Devil and have the nerve to list Dan as stronger.

Also, Kalibak is every bit as strong as Orion, who should be closer to Superman anyway.

But I still can't get over Etrigan being only Killer Croc strong. CM3's entry doesn't even make sense unless he's not powersharing.

Eh. I don't think Despero being not as strong as Doomsday is a mistake. Darkseid should be a tad stronger though.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia: Orion himself said Kalibak was equal to him in strength during Jack Kirby's Fourth World.

LOL @ Granny Goodness having a higher rating than both Atrocitus and Etrigan.

@CitizenBane: With volume 2, I disagreed with the handing out of 16's like candy, but at least it was somewhat consistent and made some sense.

HOW IS ETRIGAN A MERE 10 OUT OF 20?!

Giganta 16 wtf?

Black Adam stronger than Ares and Darkseid lol.

Bolded ones I think are too high incident too low

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

Here's from Volume 1 which I recently purchased. Agree? Disagree? Feedback is appreciated.

Amazo - 19

Ambush Bug - 0

Aquaman - 10

Ares - 16

Atom Smasher - 15/5* He's a what 50 tonner normal size 70 tonner when 100ft tall

Atomic Skull - 12

Atrocitus - 10

Big Barda - 15

Bizarro - 19

Black Adam - 19

Blackfire - 10

Blockbuster - 10

Blue Devil - 11

Booster Gold - 10

Brainiac - 13

Plasmus - 10

Captain Atom - 15 with the quantum field LIMITLESS strength

Captain Comet - 11 - after resurrection OK but if before add 4 at least

Captain Marvel - 19

Mary Marvel - 17 Why are the marvels not all equal- same power levels compleely???

CM3 - 17

Chemo - 18

Colossal Boy - 14/2*

Superwoman - 16 Didn't she just use mass altering and anti grav to simulate strength

Ultraman - 19

The Barracuda - 10

The White Martian - 16

Cyborg Superman - 19

Darkseid - 18 He's as strong if not stronger than S'man

Granny Goodness - 11

Kalibak - 14

The Demon - 10 [My biggest entry to which I object, and also why I included 10 strength and less this time around]

Despero - 18

Doctor Fate - 10

Doomsday - 20

Elasti-Woman - 12/0*

Negative Man - 9/1* Since when did Larry Trainer have strength.

Robotman - 10

Eclipso - 13

Eradicator - 19

Validus - 20

Mammoth - 14

The General - 18

General Zod - 18 ??? =/= S'man, therefore Eradiactor, CM and Marvel Family etc

Ursa - 17

Non - 20

Geo-Force - 13

Giganta - 16/4* WTF

Gorilla Grodd - 9

Hourman (Rick Tyler) - 9/3* he's a 2 to 3 tonner For F@#$ sake

Jemm - 12

Blackbriar Thorn - 2/14*

Isis - 16

Osiris - 16

Citizen Steel - 16

Kestrel - 9

Killer Croc - 10 If Aquamna who's supported 12 story builings, punched wholes in armored war vessels is a 10 than KC is NOWHERE near one.

@CitizenBane said:

There's a lot of mistakes. Killer Croc stronger than Grodd? Doomsday, Non, Cyborg Superman, Captain Marvel, Black Adam and Bizarro stronger than Despero?

doomsday, cyborg superman ARE stronger than despero, isnt a mistake

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

doomsday, cyborg superman ARE stronger than despero, isnt a mistake

This simply cannot be true, Despero has fought entire league, one shotted superman level character before. He has to be up there with Darkseid in terms of physical strength, probably even stronger if we use the recent versions of Darkseid.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia: I don't really think this is a battle. That aside. The balance looks skewed to more popular characters and more recognizable characters instead of actual levels

@Killemall said:

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

doomsday, cyborg superman ARE stronger than despero, isnt a mistake

This simply cannot be true, Despero has fought entire league, one shotted superman level character before. He has to be up there with Darkseid in terms of physical strength, probably even stronger if we use the recent versions of Darkseid.

so have general eiling, and doomsday

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

@Killemall said:

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

doomsday, cyborg superman ARE stronger than despero, isnt a mistake

This simply cannot be true, Despero has fought entire league, one shotted superman level character before. He has to be up there with Darkseid in terms of physical strength, probably even stronger if we use the recent versions of Darkseid.

so have general eiling, and doomsday

I think you are missing the point here, Cyborg Superman is a superman level character in physical strength therefore Despero should be stronger than him. Doomsday would depend on the version, Death of Superman version of Doomsday who had problems trading blows with Maxima, albiet beat her is not going to be above Despero in physical strength while Doomsday War verison who one shotted Orion should be on the same ball park .

dont know much about General Eiling, apart from that fact that his pic looks gangsta! so no comments there.

@Killemall said:

I think you are missing the point here, Cyborg Superman is a superman level character in physical strength therefore Despero should be stronger than him. Doomsday would depend on the version, Death of Superman version of Doomsday who had problems trading blows with Maxima, albiet beat her is not going to be above Despero in physical strength

Death of Superman Doomsday also tossed a frightened Darkseid out on his ear like a child, killed the Guardians' champion Green Lantern, and tore Master Mayhem limb from limb. Although Doomsday pulled these feats off, I have serious doubts that Despero would be three for three.

@Switchdoctor said:

Death of Superman Doomsday also tossed a frightened Darkseid out on his ear like a child, killed the Guardians' champion Green Lantern, and tore Master Mayhem limb from limb. Although Doomsday pulled these feats off, I have serious doubts that Despero would be three for three.

Never remember the first one happening, second one well Green Lantern is a green lantern without feats to prove otherwise he's still on same power level, so i dont know what you are referring to. Despero has fought and beaten the justice league all on his own before and has done so more than once. He's fought Superman, Wonderwoman and Martian Manhunter together and won. I dont know what you are even asking.

@Killemall: He's referring to Doomsday's Year One Annual. 1995 i believe.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@Killemall: He's referring to Doomsday's Year One Annual. 1995 i believe.

So that wouldnt be Death of Superman version of Doomsday rather the Hunter/Prey version.

@Killemall: Opposite direction. Hunter/Prey takes place after Death of Superman which means Year One takes place (chronologically speaking) before the events in Death of Superman.

@Killemall: No, the Doomsday annual told the story of Doomsday before he landed on Earth and killed Superman. And IIRC he didn't even fight Darkseid there, all they did was glare at each other for a while before deciding not to fight because the planet they were on was falling apart or something like that.

@CitizenBane: The atmosphere was going to become poison gas. IIRC, though they definitely did not fight, Doomsday did throw Darkseid, for what it's worth.

Looks like BS, or a something made for an RPG.

@Static Shock: RPG stats.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@Static Shock: RPG stats.

Well, that explains that.

@Static Shock: At least in HeroClix, there's game balance issues as to why character x doesn't get such-and-such, but even with an RPG, how do they justify their list? They say they're taking the whole picture into account and opinions may differ, but there's always going to be some bias. In this case, a lot.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia: There was an RPG book from back in the day (JLI days) that was even worse. I think Superman was a 25 in strength, while Wonder Woman was an 18.

@Static Shock: Ugh. Yeah, I think it was the Mayfair RPG. Lobo was also a 16.

Doctor Fate? 10? Captain Atom only a 15? And the craziest of all, Etrigan a ten?!?!?

If Supes is a 19, so should Etrigan. I do like that Atom Smasher got a 15. He may not be a 15, but he's awesome, so in my book he is, haha

@CitizenBane said:

LOL @ Granny Goodness having a higher rating than both Atrocitus and Etrigan.

Also, this.

@blackadamFTW: Yes! Someone who recognizes that a ten for Etrigan is insane.

Apparently punching someone literally to the moon, fighting epic battles against Lobo, and pinning Wonder Woman mean he's weaker than Blue Devil.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@Static Shock: Ugh. Yeah, I think it was the Mayfair RPG. Lobo was also a 16.

Yes, it was Mayfair. Thanks for refreshing my memory. I think I have the PDF at home. LOL.

Etrigan should be greater than a 10. He BFRed Superman to the moon.

Captain Atom should be potentially stronger than a 15, considering the limitless nature of the Quantum Field.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@blackadamFTW: Yes! Someone who recognizes that a ten for Etrigan is insane.

Apparently punching someone literally to the moon, fighting epic battles against Lobo, and pinning Wonder Woman mean he's weaker than Blue Devil.

It's ridiculous!!! According to this thing on Superman, he should be a twenty since he's beaten Superman, twice I believe.

@Switchdoctor said:

@Killemall said:

I think you are missing the point here, Cyborg Superman is a superman level character in physical strength therefore Despero should be stronger than him. Doomsday would depend on the version, Death of Superman version of Doomsday who had problems trading blows with Maxima, albiet beat her is not going to be above Despero in physical strength

Death of Superman Doomsday also tossed a frightened Darkseid out on his ear like a child, killed the Guardians' champion Green Lantern, and tore Master Mayhem limb from limb. Although Doomsday pulled these feats off, I have serious doubts that Despero would be three for three.

doomsday owns despero, with ease

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

doomsday owns despero, with ease

I Dont think Doomsday could beat Despero, although we could make argument either way, Doomsday for sure doesnt own Despero with ease. Specially the version he's talking about, even more so when you include feats that Doomsday did not even perform.

@Killemall said:

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

doomsday owns despero, with ease

I Dont think Doomsday could beat Despero, although we could make argument either way, Doomsday for sure doesnt own Despero with ease. Specially the version he's talking about, even more so when you include feats that Doomsday did not even perform.

desperos main attack is his telepathy, doomsday could adapt to it, and beat him

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

desperos main attack is his telepathy, doomsday could adapt to it, and beat him

Yes and telepathy doesnt work on Doomsday anyways MM has tried. But that being said, apart from Telepathy Despero has more than enough strength to hold his own against Doomsday, specially the incarnation which we are talking about.

@Killemall said:

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

desperos main attack is his telepathy, doomsday could adapt to it, and beat him

Yes and telepathy doesnt work on Doomsday anyways MM has tried. But that being said, apart from Telepathy Despero has more than enough strength to hold his own against Doomsday, specially the incarnation which we are talking about.

who do u think is more powerful overall? and are they on the same league?

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

who do u think is more powerful overall? and are they on the same league?

First lets clarify, we are still talking about Death of Superman version, correct? He was having problems with superman and then with Maxima, albiet beat both. Bio on countdown seem to say Doomsday died in Death of Superman. Despero on the other hand was one shotting Martian Manhunter and Kara. He overall seemed stronger. This doesnt hold true once you start looking at evolved version of Doomsday past that point though, like Hunter/Prey who'd probably beat Despero.

@Killemall said:

@Almighty_Darkseid said:

desperos main attack is his telepathy, doomsday could adapt to it, and beat him

Yes and telepathy doesnt work on Doomsday anyways MM has tried. But that being said, apart from Telepathy Despero has more than enough strength to hold his own against Doomsday, specially the incarnation which we are talking about.

Uh, no. Telepathy does work on Doomsday. You just have to be a very powerful mentalist. Manchester Black, Brainiac, and Doctor Psycho have all been successful.

@Switchdoctor said:

Uh, no. Telepathy does work on Doomsday. You just have to be a very powerful mentalist. Manchester Black, Brainiac, and Doctor Psycho have all been successful.

Thats news to me. Braniac did not use TP on him he just took control of his body with science because he breed him from a child assuming you are talking about Doomsday Wars. Manchester Black, frankly i do not even know who is he so this is not something i have read i would assume its true. Doctor Psycho isnt a better telepath than Martian Manhunter, and MM failed to TP Doomsday, so thats probably PIS. Which issue did it take place, i have $2 that says it was written by Loeb :p

@Killemall said:

@Switchdoctor said:

Uh, no. Telepathy does work on Doomsday. You just have to be a very powerful mentalist. Manchester Black, Brainiac, and Doctor Psycho have all been successful.

Thats news to me. Braniac did not use TP on him he just took control of his body with science because he breed him from a child assuming you are talking about Doomsday Wars.

I am talking about Doomsday Wars, and no, Brainiac was mind-controlling the original until he could engineer a mindless Doomsday clone body for himself. Superman had to drive Brainiac out of Doomsday's head by using a S.T.A.R. Labs psi blocker.

Manchester Black, frankly i do not even know who is he so this is not something i have read i would assume its true.

Manchester Black is a better telepath than J'onn. He made Superman and Bizarro swap bodies with his telepathy, and prevented J'onn from knowing that he did it.

Doctor Psycho isnt a better telepath than Martian Manhunter, and MM failed to TP Doomsday, so thats probably PIS.

MM consistently loses to Doomsday.

@Switchdoctor said:

I am talking about Doomsday Wars, and no, Brainiac was mind-controlling the original until he could engineer a mindless Doomsday clone body for himself. Superman had to drive Brainiac out of Doomsday's head by using a S.T.A.R. Labs psi blocker.

Thats not how i remember it, he stopped Doomsday from dying and then transferred his consciousness into him,

Gallery

Manchester Black is a better telepath than J'onn. He made Superman and Bizarro swap bodies with his telepathy, and prevented J'onn from knowing that he did it.

You still havent given me a issue number or scan of when Manchester Black TPed Doomsday, although thats impressive.

MM consistently loses to Doomsday.

Isnt that what i exactly said, MM loses to Doomsday but is a better telepath than Dr. Psyco and has mindraped Spectre twice, has touched the mind of everyone on earth etc. So i still think Dr. Psyco controlling or TPing Doomsday is a PIS.

@Killemall said:

@Switchdoctor said:

I am talking about Doomsday Wars, and no, Brainiac was mind-controlling the original until he could engineer a mindless Doomsday clone body for himself. Superman had to drive Brainiac out of Doomsday's head by using a S.T.A.R. Labs psi blocker.

Thats not how i remember it, he stopped Doomsday from dying and then transferred his consciousness into him,

Gallery

Yes, and then it was up to Brainiac to dominate him telepathically while using Doomsday as a temporary host body until he could engineer a mindless clone.

You still havent given me a issue number or scan of when Manchester Black TPed Doomsday, although thats impressive.

I don't know how it became my responsibility to tell you issue numbers, but it happened in OWAW. Google it even. Black was the only one on the Suicide Squad who survived at the time by reprogramming Doomsday to tear into Imperiex probes.

Isnt that what i exactly said, MM loses to Doomsday but is a better telepath than Dr. Psyco and has mindraped Spectre twice, has touched the mind of everyone on earth etc. So i still think Dr. Psyco controlling or TPing Doomsday is a PIS.

To claim that J'onn is able to flat out mindrape the Spectre comes off as gross exaggeration on your part. Totally ridiculous.

@Switchdoctor said:

Yes, and then it was up to Brainiac to dominate him telepathically while using Doomsday as a temporary host body until he could engineer a mindless clone.

Thats not TP, when you say TP its like being able to put down a character using telepathy, not the same thing.

I don't know how it became my responsibility to tell you issue numbers, but it happened in OWAW. Google it even. Black was the only one on the Suicide Squad who survived at the time by reprogramming Doomsday to tear into Imperiex probes.

Wait what? If you say something in the battle forum people expect you to back it by using scans or issue number. And being able to reprogram Doomsday isnt Telepathy.

To claim that J'onn is able to flat out mindrape the Spectre comes off as gross exaggeration on your part. Totally ridiculous.

John has done so in two occasions citizenbane has even posted scans/

@Killemall said:

@Switchdoctor said:

Thats not TP, when you say TP its like being able to put down a character using telepathy, not the same thing.

?

Soooo, Superman used a S.T.A.R. Labs psi-blocker to do what then?

Wait what? If you say something in the battle forum people expect you to back it by using scans or issue number.

Um, you didn't ask for proof, you just expected me to spoonfeed you the issue numbers when it's all over the internet. If you don't believe what I'm saying, then meh.

And being able to reprogram Doomsday isnt Telepathy.

Clearly you haven't read anything about Manchester Black. If you prefer, Black 'reprogrammed' Doomsday so that his hatred for Superman was redirected towards Imperiex probes. In any case, that outclasses what J'onn is able to do with his psionics.

John has done so in two occasions citizenbane has even posted scans/

The only way that J'onn could possibly do anything to the Spectre is to mindscrew with the host's mind. It's sort of the same thing as Psylocke being able to affect Ghost Rider by getting to Dan Ketch. In the end, a feat like that wouldn't make J'onn better than Psycho, Black, Maxima, or Brainiac. And no, no way in hell is J'onn doing anything directly to Aztar.

@Switchdoctor said:

The only way that J'onn could possibly do anything to the Spectre is to mindscrew with the host's mind. It's sort of the same thing as Psylocke being able to affect Ghost Rider by getting to Dan Ketch. In the end, a feat like that wouldn't make J'onn better than Psycho, Black, Maxima, or Brainiac. And no, no way in hell is J'onn doing anything directly to Aztar.

He pulled the Spectre onto the astral plane in JLA #35 and then made contact with his unconscious mind in Soul War. The only person who has ever screwed with the host's mind was Parallax in Rebirth. I am not sure why you think Aztar is some impenetrable fortress, if anything without a host he is more susceptible to manipulation, which is what Eclipso did to him in Day of Vengeance.

J'onn has read the minds of everyone on Earth several times, none of the people you mentioned have ever done anything resembling that as far as I know.

@Switchdoctor said:

?

Soooo, Superman used a S.T.A.R. Labs psi-blocker to do what then?

To given Doomsday back the control over his powers, Braniac being able to supress Doomsday personality after having taken control over his body through techonology means is not really telepathy.

Um, you didn't ask for proof, you just expected me to spoonfeed you the issue numbers when it's all over the internet. If you don't believe what I'm saying, then meh.

I asked which issue it happened 3 post before. And what are you talking about all i asked was which issue it was so i can go check it out myself.

Clearly you haven't read anything about Manchester Black. If you prefer, Black 'reprogrammed' Doomsday so that his hatred for Superman was redirected towards Imperiex probes. In any case, that outclasses what J'onn is able to do with his psionics.

I expressly said the first time you brought up this that i havent read ANYTHING on Manchester Black, coz i simply havent. Being reprogrammed using technology isnt still a telepathy that people use in battle though.

The only way that J'onn could possibly do anything to the Spectre is to mindscrew with the host's mind. It's sort of the same thing as Psylocke being able to affect Ghost Rider by getting to Dan Ketch. In the end, a feat like that wouldn't make J'onn better than Psycho, Black, Maxima, or Brainiac. And no, no way in hell is J'onn doing anything directly to Aztar.

Of course, but thats still a pretty damn good feat given the fact that Hal Jordan as Spectre was able to erase flash from everyone's memory on earth, that still put him above a normal planetary telepath, which is where Dr. Psyco lies.

Brainiac isnt technically a telepath he just uses PSI blast from the technology and doesnt have much feats to show in that regard. Pyscho is a planet level telepath hasnt done anything to put him above that, Maxima is not even a planet level telepath why would she be above John anyways.

And Superman humiliated Manchester Black in Action Comics #775, it took him about a second to modify Black's brain to delete his telepathy. Black actually started weeping.

@CitizenBane said:

@Switchdoctor said:

He pulled the Spectre onto the astral plane in JLA #35

Not exactly. He thrusted himself into Hal Jordan's mind, and the rest of the JLA. He wanted to show Hal (who was ridden with guilt and cynicism for becoming Parallax) that even inside the Joker, the most warped of souls, that there is hope for redemption. He didn't thrust himself into the Spirit of Vengeance that is tethered to Hal.

and then made contact with his unconscious mind in Soul War.

Umm, it's waaaay more convoluted than that. There's a race called the Trans in that story that is trying to destroy the Earth. Later, we see them possessing 6 psychics who they find rather tasty. Later still, the league discovers that the Trans in fact aren't an invading horde of aliens. They're psychic manifestations that feed off the fear and superstitions of the human race. The scene you're talking about when J'onn touches Hal's head, that's J'onn going for a mind-link only to unleash a voracious psychic shadow monster that was hiding inside Hal's mind. The nightmare creature is so hungry that it attaches its tentacles to the members of the JLA, and begins touching them inappropriately on the deepest levels of their psyches. Batman yells at J'onn to break the mind link, but he can't. All he did was wake up whatever was lurking inside Hal's head. It took J'onn and Aquaman giving his own telepathic push to sever the psionic link to Hal's consciousness.

I am not sure why you think Aztar is some impenetrable fortress, if anything without a host he is more susceptible to manipulation, which is what Eclipso did to him in Day of Vengeance.

?

Eclipso is leagues more powerful than J'onn, or any telepath for that matter. There's no comparison. Eclipso is Aztar's predecessor who went from being the Spirit of Vengence, to becoming the Vengeance Demon.

J'onn has read the minds of everyone on Earth several times, none of the people you mentioned have ever done anything resembling that as far as I know.

J'onn may have done the global mind read, but has he ever mind-controlled someone as resistant to telepathy as Doomsday? Nope. Has he ever done something like make Superman's and Bizarro's psychic consciousnesses swap bodies with his telepathy? Nope.

And Superman humiliated Manchester Black in Action Comics #775, it took him about a second to modify Black's brain to delete his telepathy. Black actually started weeping.

And this helps J'onn's case...how? I have no idea where you're going with this one. Total red herring.

@Killemall said:

@Switchdoctor said:

?

Soooo, Superman used a S.T.A.R. Labs psi-blocker to do what then?

To given Doomsday back the control over his powers, Braniac being able to supress Doomsday personality after having taken control over his body through techonology means is not really telepathy.

Oookay. Whatever you say. Lowball the feat all you want, but it's still telepathy. Not that it matters though, because Brainiac has done better by being the only guy that has mind-controlled Lobo. And before you try and lowball that feat, go through your comics and learn to appreciate just how difficult that is.

I expressly said the first time you brought up this that i havent read ANYTHING on Manchester Black, coz i simply havent. Being reprogrammed using technology isnt still a telepathy that people use in battle though.

You're not getting it. Manchester Black is a telepath. He mind-wiped Doomsday's brain so that whenever he saw an Imperiex probe, he had the urge to project all his hatred for Superman into smashing probes. No. technology. involved. anywhere.

As for your comment about Maxima being a 'planet level telepath', what does it matter if she is or isn't? She has defeated Brainwave, a 'planet level telepath', lobotomized Brainiac, and has mind zapped Orion unconscious inside a few panels. Last time I checked, Martians can't even read the mind of a New God.