Characters can only teleport themselves and their gear
Characters cannot utilize telefrag
Characters cannot utilize soul or mind based assaults
Characters cannot utilize mind control of any form
Characters cannot harm their opponents while intangible or anything like it (Intangibility will additionally be limited to a one minute use with a three minute cool down.)
Characters are at their standard states unless stated otherwise
DC characters have access to Pre/New52 feats unless stated otherwise
Heroes are now willing to kill but will not harm innocents
DC & Marvel teams must consist of at least one Marvel or DC character
Insults will not be tolerated
Teams must win by death, knockout, incapacitation, or completing their mission
There will be two rounds. The side with the most wins at the end of the two rounds win
Team Marvel & DC: (DarkRaiden)
Team-
Batwing
Poison Ivy
Miles Morales
Cassandra Cain
Black Panther
Perk-
One hour of preparation
Indie Publishers: (i_like_swords)
Team-
Boba Fett
Jango Fett
Luther Strode
Ninjak
Bloodshot
Eternal Warrior
Perk-
Basic knowledge
Map/Mission: (Capture the flag)
@i_like_swords will start at the open ramp while @darkraiden start at the closed ramp. At each of these ramps is a flag. These flags are indestructible and their protector cannot remove them from the pedestal they will sit upon. The protectors may also not make it so that the opposing team cannot retrieve the flag at all. (Force fields, enchantments, etc.) These flags are additionally covered in a force field that prevents teleportation within and out of it from attackers. (Force field is half a mile in length & width.)
If a team member dies while in possession of the flag, the flag will be dropped in the nearest location. If a protector is killed while in possession of the flag the flag will be dropped in the nearest location.
The map in total is three miles in length and two miles in width. There are dozens of workers and jeeps scattered throughout all points of the map. First to get the flag back to their base wins.
1. Ivy uses her powers to turn the entire arena into a plant-a-palooza. There will be large vines everywhere, trees everywhere, grass, etc. She will also make a jungle-type area around our flag and some animal avatars to guard it. She herself will also guard it.
2. Black Panther will get together with everyone else and strategize.
Black Panther will go after your flag while cloaked
Miles will guard our flag while cloaked
Miles will also make a web-cave/thing around our flag so anyone going to get it will be trapped/step on webs
Cassy will go after your flag
So will Batwing, but he'll do it by air and stealthed up
When the match starts, My team will attempt to stealthily take your flag, if any problems arise, BP will let lose a energy dagger barrage, Batwing will shoot incendiaries and blasters and will even use his flash grenade ray to stun your team. Cassy will simply dismantle them physically.
This entire time the vines, plants, trees, etc. will be attacking your team and also going after the flag and attempting to bring it to Ivy. If you go after our flag, the very plants around you will collapse on you, trapping you, and will place Ivy's toxins in you, drugging and incapacitating you.
Even more, if you get close enough and step on the web, Miles will simply charge the web with venom sting and take out whoever's trying to get the flag.
@darkraiden: I'll start by raising a question about your prep, and then I'll lay out how my team would go about this.
1. Ivy uses her powers to turn the entire arena into a plant-a-palooza. There will be large vines everywhere, trees everywhere, grass, etc. She will also make a jungle-type area around our flag and some animal avatars to guard it. She herself will also guard it.
I'm fairly familiar with the nature of Ivy's abilities, but before we move on I think it'd be helpful if you posted some showings for her, so I can get a gauge for just how powerful her span of control is currently.
there's plenty of dirt in this map.
The OP
I don't understand this, because this map is basically.. all metal.. but disregarding that, this gives Ivy a lot to work with (like.. a lot.. rly, plenty of dirt all over the map? xD). So, if you can show me Ivy's span of control and just in general what she's capable of in an hour (and what she can do combatively), then I'll set about countering her plantlife. Remember, the map is 3 miles x 2 miles, so Ivy will need to be very powerful in order to have her influence span over that much terrain. i question if she can actually get plants operational in an area that big in just one hour, but I digress, that's for you to prove. There are also lots of workers around the map, who may not be happy about the trees and what not (just a thought).
Teamwork
Thought this was worth addressing first off. My team should work very well together in an unconventional manner. You have the three Valiant guys who have all worked together (Ninjak, Eternal Warrior and Bloodshot), and the two Fetts who obviously know each other, but their main strength is their ability to do their own job independently, without getting in anyone elses way. Everyone here works alone, primarily, and have all gone out on their own missions and adventures by themselves. The bounty hunters obviously work alone, Luther spent 5 years shutting down underground criminal operations all by himself, Ninjak is an MI-5 Spy, Eternal Warrior is.. well, he's many things, since he's been around for 10,000+ years and has fought in every major conflict in Earth's history, and Bloodshot went on plenty of solo missions under Project Rising Spirit. So while they won't be sporting a Batman + Nightwing type relationship, they will be able to splinter off and do their own thing. This brings me two advantages - unpredictability, and versatility. I will have many methods of victory and defence, and it will all be happening at the same time. It'll be relatively hard for your team to get their heads around what they're going into (seeing as you have no prior knowledge of my team). Whereas my guys have the prior knowledge perk, so they'll know who their opponents are, their strengths and how to exploit potential weaknesses (all of which I'll get onto soon). Another factor is that all of my team have a basically identical moral code. They're all anti-heroes - they'll decimate any enemy, won't kill civilians, and are just pretty brutal in general.
It's a rag tag group of highly effective and diverse killing machines, who should get along just fine, and will work seamlessly in order to complete the objective, each doing their own bit for the team.
The Plan
Map Key
Red - Luther Strode
White - Bloodshot
Purple - Ninjak
Blue - Jango Fett
Green - Boba Fett
Black - Eternal Warrior
The stars are colour-coded to my team members. Their placement on the map represents roughly where my team members are heading towards during this fight. Luther, Ninjak and Bloodshot are all heading through the center towards your flag - although I will expand on how exactly they go about this. Eternal Warrior is sitting on my flag as a last line of defence. Boba and Jango Fett are guarding the entrance to where my flag is as well as the two sides your team could come from, although they're close enough to each other and the flag that they could get over to each other quickly enough, if need be.
Luther Strode, Bloodshot and Ninjak
These three will be moving up as a team, through the center of the map, on the bottom floor. Both Luther and Ninjak will be trying to retrieve the flag, although who actually gets to it first doesn't really matter. Bloodshot will be there as a bodyguard and to support them against potential threats.
Luther is taking the direct approach here, since that is what he's best at. He'll be jogging through, ready to take on any opponent that gets in his way. If any plant comes near him, he should have sufficient strength to simply cut it in half. Him and others with his same power set, have strength sufficient to punch/chop through human skulls and bodies, batter down steel doors, create huge craters in the ground by slamming an opponent, and more. I'll edit the scans in later on, but for reference, these feats took place during The Strange Talent of Luther Strode and The Legend of Luther Strode. Strode is a solid multi-tonner with impressive steel-grade striking feats - he should be able to fight off plants. Well, that's what I'm hoping, since I don't know Ivy too well.
Bloodshot and Ninjak will both go a more discreet route. Bloodshot has access to cloaking, so he will use that to avoid plants and to slip past your team members. Ninjak also has cloaking, which has been sufficient to slip past X-O Manowar's sensors while on full-alert (which have detected threats coming from the atmosphere, detected missiles coming from the Black Sea while in Romania, detected people behind walls). So they will for the most part be going for the stealth route here.
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In terms of detecting enemies, Ninjak can fire out some of these drones from the hilt in his sword at any time, which will tell him where your team members are.
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Bloodshot has hearing in the ultrasonic range, and sight in infrared and ultraviolet settings. He can also communicate with technology, as well as detect it, and he can also detect explosive, chemical or radioactive weapons. He should have no problem detecting any of your team members as far as I am concerned.
Now the question is, can your team members detect mine? Probably, haha. I'm aware of Black Panther and Miles' detection capabilities, but I'll leave that for you to argue.
Ninjak will also be running along walls here and using advanced parkour to get around more quickly, and supposing an unwitting opponent walks by, he could even stealth kill them and eliminate them from the competition:
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1 - Description of his smart boots.
2 - Demonstration of his smart boots.
3/4 - Demonstration of a stealth kill.
Although Ninjak doesn't have to get up close and personal to stealth kill an opponent - he has bladed shuriken for that.
To my knowledge, none of your team members are sufficiently armored to suggest they can withstand one of these to the skull, so that should be GG if Ninjak can get off a stealth-shot on them.
In terms of returning the flag, Luther has superhuman travel speed which has afforded him the ability to cross an entire city in minutes - so he would get it back in a breeze. Ninjak, not as fast, but between his respectable physical attributes and general parkour and agility, he should get there in good time. Bloodshot has the healing factor, multi-ton strength, and armament to hold off your team, and he could even potentially mess with any electronics you have through technopathy. He also has abilities like sonic screech, synaptic disruption (brain-shut down) and various others which I'll touch on later.
The Fetts and Eternal Warrior
The Fetts have motion sensors, super-sensitive audio filtering, infrared vision, 360 degree field of vision and even heartbeat sensors at their disposal through their helmets. It's safe to say nobody is sneaking past them. They have also both thrown down with various Force Users (roughly Spider-Man class speed, precognitive, lightsaber wielding, yeno), and have a plethora of weaponry to draw from. They should be a massive challenge to get past for your team members, especially as a pair, and even if they get through the Fetts bloodied and battered (which they shouldn't), they would still have to get past the insanely skilled/experienced, multi-ton, immortal, super durable and healing Eternal Warrior. And after that, they will likely meet some of my attacking team members on the way back. So it's safe to say you have your hands fully getting through my defence (and visa versa for me).
Countering Your Prep
1. Ivy uses her powers to turn the entire arena into a plant-a-palooza. There will be large vines everywhere, trees everywhere, grass, etc. She will also make a jungle-type area around our flag and some animal avatars to guard it. She herself will also guard it.
My only real counter to this now, without information on Ivy, is that Bloodshot can use his combat knife to cut through plants, Ninjak can use his swords, and Luther can use his sheer strength. They shouldn't be a massive problem. I'm interested to hear about the animal avatars and Ivy's own abilities, though. The Fetts can light plants on fire or blast them with their blaster pistols/rifles, or cut them with a knife/blade gauntlet on their suit. Eternal usually has some form of bladed weaponry, so he can use that.
All in all, it seems like it will be somewhat of a hindrance, but not a game changer.
2. Black Panther will get together with everyone else and strategize.
Black Panther will go after your flag while cloaked
Miles will guard our flag while cloaked
Miles will also make a web-cave/thing around our flag so anyone going to get it will be trapped/step on webs
Cassy will go after your flag
So will Batwing, but he'll do it by air and stealthed up
Black Panther should be detected by Ninjaks drones, Bloodshot's hearing/sight/nanites, and the Fett's various detection gear which I've listed.
Miles won't be hidden from anyone, except maybe Luther. Although I'm sure I can find a couple of showings of Luther's enhanced senses, which may help my case for him detecting Miles (I'll get back to you on this). Still, Miles will have to reveal himself in order to directly attack anyone.
The webbing would prove difficult temporarily, but between my teams bladed weaponry and Bloodshot and Luthers multi-ton strength, they should get through it.
Cassandra doesn't seem like she brings much here apart from her fighting skill. Honestly, I can see her being picked off by my attacking squad very early. She has no equipment, just her move reading and martial arts. A couple of flashbang shuriken, a sonic screech or a speedblitzing metahuman (Luther) should sort her out. Even then I don't picture her getting by the Fetts.
Batwing might have a tough time here. Obviously he'll be detected, unless I'm missing something about his cloaking. Boba also has flight, has prior knowledge of Batwing and his various electronics (through my perk), and just so happens to be packing a sonic emitter which can shut down electronics. Any of Batwing's gear (presumably his flight gear, and any electronic weapons/cloaking) would be shut down:
Also, Bloodshot can remotely hack electronics, like when he hacked the electronics in the brains of the H.A.R.D. Corps members, and if he can make physical contact, he can completely "poison" (basically hack) the coding in electronics:
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Shuts down an ambulance
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Shuts down power in a warehouse
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Bites an opponent, letting his nanites roam free inside of his cybernetics. From there they decrypt his programming, poisoning him and shutting him down.
So Bloodshot has a fair chance of causing Batwing problems if he gets too close, even more so if Bloodshot gets his hands on him.
When the match starts, My team will attempt to stealthily take your flag, if any problems arise, BP will let lose a energy dagger barrage, Batwing will shoot incendiaries and blasters and will even use his flash grenade ray to stun your team. Cassy will simply dismantle them physically.
The stealth part won't work, due to what I've pointed out already. Is it in-character for Black Panther to start unleashing a torrent of energy daggers? Regardless, it wouldn't be that simple - what with Luther being fast enough to casually bullet time high-caliber machine guns from a dozen shooters, and the ability to resist full-body nerve toxins. It really just depends on who Black Panther runs into really. We'll get into it more later.
We'll need to compare Batwing with the Fetts. Although I already see the Fett's besting him, even not including the sonic emitter which will shut down some if not all of his gear. Cassy isn't dismantling anyone, not easily anyway. She's going up against people with greater strength and durability, healing, and/or far better equipment, as well as people who already have knowledge of her.
This entire time the vines, plants, trees, etc. will be attacking your team and also going after the flag and attempting to bring it to Ivy. If you go after our flag, the very plants around you will collapse on you, trapping you, and will place Ivy's toxins in you, drugging and incapacitating you.
Even more, if you get close enough and step on the web, Miles will simply charge the web with venom sting and take out whoever's trying to get the flag.
I'm sure Luther, Bloodshot and Ninjak can avoid that between their cutting abilities and speed, not to mention the fact we're still yet to see how potent Ivy's plant abilities are (although I have a sneaking suspicion she will just break the whole match... *shrugs*). The toxins will be circumvented by Bloodshot and Luther's healing factors.
Miles will be too busy being pummelled by Luther to worry about that, not to mention Bloodshot or Ninjak will be opening fire on him.
In any case, nice plan. I see this debate as being pretty challenging. I'll need to find time to gather and then edit in a lot of my scans, so bear with me on that. Your turn.
Now I realize that you didn't get to see any scans so it's understandable but they'll pretty much shut down your whole thing.
1. Pretty much no one's getting past the plants. I mean some of Ivy's plants are that weak, but most are much, much stronger. For instance:
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Just the scale of some of her plants, holding down Superboy and krypto, overtaking a building, etc. all in seconds nonetheless in an hour.
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Building busting plants, plants disarming people (like they can do to your team) and even blocking fire. Oh and holding Robin in precarious positions.
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Animal avatars (no other showings), tentacles and stuff she can do if you get close, her making and controlling plants from a city away, and communicating with the green/plants to find the location of Harley.
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Some counters to regen, acid that messes up Black Lanterns, manipulating the fauna in GL's digestive track, and her toxins can pretty much turn you into goop.
So yeah, the plants really do this for me tbh. But let's continue.
2. Plants of course detect you, as do Miles and BP with Spider-sense and infrared senses.
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3. Surviving shuriken to the head, Batwing is bullet proof, BP has vibranium armor, Ivy will block it, Miles will dodge it and sense it with spidey sense, Cassy will just dodge it. You want agility feats? i got those. Let me know.
Countering your Counters
1. Destroying Plants? I countered that with how durable they are and they've even tanked fire. Plus if you did, she'd just make new ones faster than you could destroy them.
2. Multi-ton strength getting through webbing? Nah. It's based off of Spider-Man's webbing which has held 100+ tonners (I have feats). Also the point of it is that once you step on it, he charges it with venom sting, which is an auto-KO for you.
3. Cassy being useless? I heavily disagree. For one, can just get by when you're focusing on the plant barrage. Also just fighting ability? I don't think you realize how good she is.
4. That sonic doesn't overload electronics from the looks of it. It overloads audio transmitters and whatnot of what looks to be a robot. If you can show it shutting down something electronic like...a digital watch or some lights even I'd believe it. Seems like the robot just got messed up the same way that human did, his ears (and systems) hurt and shut down. Pretty sure Fett's own helmet is electronic and that wasn't messed up so....
5. Don't see Bloodshot getting close to Batwing. If he does, taser should do its job. Batwing will be dropping bombs, flashing grenade rays, shooting blasters etc. and staying in the air. Add in Black Panther and the plants and Cassy, and Bloodshot's gonna be too overwhelmed.
6. BP's energy daggers hit people who dodge and catch bullets and even people much much faster than that all the time.
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Plus BP's used to fighting people who outright dodge bullets AFTER they're fired like Wolverine and Spider-Man. And he outspeeds and outfights them with ease. And yes, you guessed it. I have scans if you want.
7. You'll avoid what? I don't see how bullet timing lets you avoid venom sting. To get to my flag you have to literally travel through webs and the webs conduct the venom sting. It's undodgeable. Ask Spider-Man himself.
Kinda like that but larger scale. Don't see how that's avoidable. As for healing factors vs. toxins well...we saw the Black Lantern scans.
And...I don't know I guess a bonus round. You keep mentioning that your guys time bullets or w/e so I guess I'll show some dodging feats for my guys:
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Black Panther outmoving Spider-Man, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Invisible Woman's shield, and making a guy stab himself.
And they all have reaction feats far faster than bullets. Of course he's dodged bullets as well, but that seems tame compared to those feats
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Miles dodging bullets, lightning, various War Machine suits
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batwing dodging stuff, Cassie dodging bullets point blank
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More speed feats for Cassie.
So overall, there were things you dismissed, things you didn't counter but most importantly:
I hate to think this whole tourney boils down to spamming plants that beat up kryptonians :/
..yeah.. although there seems to be some missing context behind that, and some of these feats in general. I'll explore it somewhat, although I have a feeling I may have stepped into a mismatch due to poor pricing/character listing.
1. Pretty much no one's getting past the plants. I mean some of Ivy's plants are that weak, but most are much, much stronger. For instance:
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Just the scale of some of her plants, holding down Superboy and krypto, overtaking a building, etc. all in seconds nonetheless in an hour.
The first two scans show a decent span of control. Not miles long, but good nonetheless. Your next scans of Ivy holding Superboy and Krypto appear to sorely lacking context. For one, Superboy says to what appears to be a normal guy "I'm about as strong as you now" - so Superboy's powers were on the flux there. I don't know if that's because of his tactile telekinesis or what. I can't explain Krypto being restrained, but I'm not ruling out the possibility that it was because of a similar reason to Superboy, and I also don't know his strength feats other than that he's a kryptonian dog. Also, on the next page Ivy makes it clear that she isn't actually controlling the plants. "It's already happening." "I'm too late."
Basically what I'm saying is - I cannot take this feat without a massive heap of salt until you provide me with some actual context.
The last scan is also impressive. I'll properly counter the argument against the plants as I go on, and will do a summary of that argument at some point. Although.. I don't see this debate going very far given the range of Ivy's abilities and the sheer map advantage you've been given.....
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Building busting plants, plants disarming people (like they can do to your team) and even blocking fire. Oh and holding Robin in precarious positions.
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Animal avatars (no other showings), tentacles and stuff she can do if you get close, her making and controlling plants from a city away, and communicating with the green/plants to find the location of Harley.
I question if she can conjure up the same level of building busting plants here. There should be significantly less soil on this map, given that it's all metal and presumably only has soil scattered around (which raises the question, how are these plants even fertile to begin with?). Not to mention.. she seemed to be require to become exceptionally angry to perform such a feat, given how she was going crazy at Batman.
Disarming people is nice, I'll get on to this later. I'm just clearing up some stuff first.
Animal avatars seem pretty useless, since they have no real proven capabilities.
She was only controlling very small scale plants from a city away. Basically flowers. Nothing combat relevant. It would allow her to detect opponents, which is useful, but it seems like Ivy needs to be within visible range of opponents, and fuly concentrating on them, in order to use her plants to attack them. This means that my team are safe from her plants up until they get within range of her. At which point I'll make the argument that they can take her out (like Batman did.. which a grapple line around her wrists, in your own scan. Lol).
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Some counters to regen, acid that messes up Black Lanterns, manipulating the fauna in GL's digestive track, and her toxins can pretty much turn you into goop.
So yeah, the plants really do this for me tbh. But let's continue.
Except that she has no knowledge of my teams regenerative capabilities, like she had with the Black Lantern, therefore she wouldn't know to use it on my teammates. Plus, based on what I can tell, there was no fight. She prepped for the Black Lantern. She won't have the prior knowledge required to pull off that kind of prep on my team. And even if you did argue that she would create one of those plants, you'd be arguing that she'd be focusing on manipulating that one plant and her other plants i conjunction with it, for the sole purpose of getting my team members in there, freeing up space for someone like Ninjak to drop a shuriken in her brain, or Bloodshot to shoot her, loose off a sonic screech or a synaptic burst (shutting her brain down).
Basically my point in general is that Ivy is too physically susceptible to my team members, and has to hide behind her plants in order to do well here. She constricts Bloodshot? Fine - she eats a couple of these.
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She had to be basically right next to her opponents in those scans in order to affect them. That isn't really somewhere she wants to be with any of my team members, given Strode could rip her apart, Ninjak would dice her, and Bloodshot could shoot her, blow her up or shut her brain down.
It almost seems like the plants do it for you, but once I get a gist of their actual capabilities, I'll set about properly forming a full-scale argument and plan. Right now I'm more just testing the waters..
2. Plants of course detect you, as do Miles and BP with Spider-sense and infrared senses.
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3. Surviving shuriken to the head, Batwing is bullet proof, BP has vibranium armor, Ivy will block it, Miles will dodge it and sense it with spidey sense, Cassy will just dodge it. You want agility feats? i got those. Let me know.
So we can all detect each other. Fair enough.
Black Panther doesn't currently have vibranium armor, IIRC. Batwing, fair enough, Ivy.. maybe but if she's concentrating on another plant (which seems to be where your plan is heading - Ivy using her plants combatively), then Ninjak can catch her off-guard. Miles would probably sense it, I agree. I'm aware of Cassy's bullet timing feats, but if Ninjak is cloaked and sticking to a wall somewhere up high, Cassy won't see the shuriken coming. It could end up in her brain. If there's no feasible counter for her detecting and avoiding Ninjak while cloaked, then she's as good as dead IMO.
1. Destroying Plants? I countered that with how durable they are and they've even tanked fire. Plus if you did, she'd just make new ones faster than you could destroy them.
2. Multi-ton strength getting through webbing? Nah. It's based off of Spider-Man's webbing which has held 100+ tonners (I have feats). Also the point of it is that once you step on it, he charges it with venom sting, which is an auto-KO for you.
3. Cassy being useless? I heavily disagree. For one, can just get by when you're focusing on the plant barrage. Also just fighting ability? I don't think you realize how good she is.
4. That sonic doesn't overload electronics from the looks of it. It overloads audio transmitters and whatnot of what looks to be a robot. If you can show it shutting down something electronic like...a digital watch or some lights even I'd believe it. Seems like the robot just got messed up the same way that human did, his ears (and systems) hurt and shut down. Pretty sure Fett's own helmet is electronic and that wasn't messed up so....
5. Don't see Bloodshot getting close to Batwing. If he does, taser should do its job. Batwing will be dropping bombs, flashing grenade rays, shooting blasters etc. and staying in the air. Add in Black Panther and the plants and Cassy, and Bloodshot's gonna be too overwhelmed.
1. You didn't show their resistance to cutting damage. Ninjak has plenty of bladed weapons, Bloodshot has combat knives, and Luther's karate chops are as good as any knife, being able to shred straight through a human body like butter.
2. It needs to solidify to hold 100 tonners IIRC, but even then Luther can just use his move reading to dodge it, and is a casual bullet timer anyway. Webbing isn't as fast as bullets, so this shouldn't be an issue.
3. Who is she getting by exactly? The two Fetts who will sense her coming a mile away? Who are packing highly powerful blaster rifles/snipers, numerous wrist/missile rockets, thermal detonators, flamethrowers, wrist lasers and more? All of which can be voice activated, and is controlled by a weapons targeting system? They also hae jetpacks, so they can rain down on her from the skies and there isn't much she can do about it, given their Jedi-killing accuracy (beings who are faster than Cassy on top of having battle precog, due to their ability to deflect blaster bolts and innate superhuman speed). Eternal Warrior who is sitting on the flag, waiting for whoever was lucky enough to get by the Fett's bloodied and battered? (Or dead. Dead is more likely).
She's a great martial artist, and she's fast, but she's outnumbered and outgunned. She would get blown to bits trying to get into my flag area.
4. ...
Did you read the scans I posted? The droid, Proxy, was running a simulation where he takes the form of Jango Fett. Once the sonic detonator went off, not only did it deactivate the simulation, returning Proxy to his droid appearance, it also shut down all of his systems. Proxy says it himself. "All my systems are shutting down".
Fett's own helmet wasn't shut down because it's evidently resistant to such attacks. You don't really have a case for the sonic emitter doing anything other than what it says on the tin - shuts down electronic systems. Which is what the majority of Batwing's gear is made from. Bye flight, bye weapons, bye sensors and whatever else he is packing.
5. I was more arguing if he did get close, what would happen. Being able to fly is useful for Batwing.
I think once we work out the kinks in this debate, we can focus on how this would actually go down. As it's going right now, it seems like our attacking characters are going to end up meeting in the middle. Bloodshot, Luther and Ninjak vs Batwing, Black Panther and Cassandra. Bloodshot would likely go after Batwing, trying to shoot him out of the sky and get close enough to him to shut down his electronics. In any case, he'd have his hands full. Black Panther would be facing Luther on the ground, which would make for a solid fight. Cassandra having no way of detecting Ninjak would eat a shuriken to the skull, logically. She has no way of defending against that.
6. BP's energy daggers hit people who dodge and catch bullets and even people much much faster than that all the time.
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Plus BP's used to fighting people who outright dodge bullets AFTER they're fired like Wolverine and Spider-Man. And he outspeeds and outfights them with ease. And yes, you guessed it. I have scans if you want.
7. You'll avoid what? I don't see how bullet timing lets you avoid venom sting. To get to my flag you have to literally travel through webs and the webs conduct the venom sting. It's undodgeable. Ask Spider-Man himself.
First scan is nice, but isn't anything Luther can't dance around. He's literally stated (and has later on) that he can dance around dozens of high caliber machine gun bullets all at once, so energy dagger spam wouldn't be a problem. Namor isn't a casual bullet timer, to my knowledge. Tony was busy with Wolverine, and was also under the impression beforehand that T'Challa couldn't even hurt his armor - so he obviously wasn't even trying to dodge the energy daggers. Last scan isn't impressive.
Luther can also dodge bullets AFTER they're fired.
BP doesn't easily outspeed Wolverine or Spider-Man. He can keep up with them both, but then so could Luther. You show me BP tagging them with energy daggers while they're actively trying to dodge them, then we'll talk.
7. Avoid the plants or a projectile web. All my team members are fast enough to do so. They don't have to touch the webs, and thanks to my perk they will be perfectly aware of the venom sting. They would likely dispatch Miles and then cut his webs apart, then retrieve the flag. They don't have to fumble onto them like idiots, which is what your plan seems to require.
And...I don't know I guess a bonus round. You keep mentioning that your guys time bullets or w/e so I guess I'll show some dodging feats for my guys:
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Black Panther outmoving Spider-Man, Wolverine, Iron Fist, Invisible Woman's shield, and making a guy stab himself.
I brought up bullet timing when I was talking about my team members dodging web projectiles, plants ect.
Black Panther tagged Spider-Man once. That isn't easily outmoving him. That's just landing a single hit. Peter could certainly do the same back. Iron Fist tagged Black Panther during that fight so I don't know why you're using a selective scan of T'Challa blocking his attacks to say he "outmoved" him. T'Challa tagging Wolverine, and Wolverine remarking on his speed is one showing of T'Challa doing well against Wolverine. It isn't a confirmation of him being faster than Wolverine, not is it concluding evidence that he can "easily" outmove him. He just did well against him, partly through fighting skill. The classic age scan is.. okay I guess, and making a guy stab himself is okay.
As for the other speed feats, I'll include my scans by the end of the week for general speed.
So overall, there were things you dismissed, things you didn't counter but most importantly:
Didn't Counter Ivy's plants
Didn't counter the webs/venom sting plan
After you do that, we can dance.
What did I dismiss or fail to counter? Lol.
I didn't not counter Ivy's plants, I asked questions about them prior to being shown a single scan of them. I'm now questioning the context of some of your scans which, in general, truth be told, seem very selective, and some are out of context.
Well, regardless of whether you thought my opening thoughts on the venom sting were sufficient, I've countered it now.
The first two scans show a decent span of control. Not miles long, but good nonetheless. Your next scans of Ivy holding Superboy and Krypto appear to sorely lacking context. For one, Superboy says to what appears to be a normal guy "I'm about as strong as you now" - so Superboy's powers were on the flux there. I don't know if that's because of his tactile telekinesis or what. I can't explain Krypto being restrained, but I'm not ruling out the possibility that it was because of a similar reason to Superboy, and I also don't know his strength feats other than that he's a kryptonian dog. Also, on the next page Ivy makes it clear that she isn't actually controlling the plants. "It's already happening." "I'm too late."
Krypto's hurt Superboy Prime and almost killed Mongul. So him being restrained is impressive. Superboy just fought Parasite but he beat him.
And she is definitely controlling the plants. Notice the plants are rising around her as she's moving. Her saying she's too late to save smallville is likely from parasite or has something to do with those plants looking so brown.
I question if she can conjure up the same level of building busting plants here. There should be significantly less soil on this map, given that it's all metal and presumably only has soil scattered around (which raises the question, how are these plants even fertile to begin with?). Not to mention.. she seemed to be require to become exceptionally angry to perform such a feat, given how she was going crazy at Batman.
Disarming people is nice, I'll get on to this later. I'm just clearing up some stuff first.
Animal avatars seem pretty useless, since they have no real proven capabilities.
Um...she conjured them up on pavement in a city. I'm 100% sure she can conjure them here.
She was only controlling very small scale plants from a city away. Basically flowers. Nothing combat relevant. It would allow her to detect opponents, which is useful, but it seems like Ivy needs to be within visible range of opponents, and fuly concentrating on them, in order to use her plants to attack them. This means that my team are safe from her plants up until they get within range of her. At which point I'll make the argument that they can take her out (like Batman did.. which a grapple line around her wrists, in your own scan. Lol)
Nothing combat relevant? They...literally restrained Zatanna. If that's not combat then what is? And again she did it from super range, so that part about her needing to be in visible range is wrong. And Batman didn't take her out, she still had the plants throw cars at him and make him retreat.
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Also...she clearly grew the plants to be large enough (and tree like) to restrain a full grown person. Not just flowers.
Except that she has no knowledge of my teams regenerative capabilities, like she had with the Black Lantern, therefore she wouldn't know to use it on my teammates. Plus, based on what I can tell, there was no fight. She prepped for the Black Lantern. She won't have the prior knowledge required to pull off that kind of prep on my team. And even if you did argue that she would create one of those plants, you'd be arguing that she'd be focusing on manipulating that one plant and her other plants i conjunction with it, for the sole purpose of getting my team members in there, freeing up space for someone like Ninjak to drop a shuriken in her brain, or Bloodshot to shoot her, loose off a sonic screech or a synaptic burst (shutting her brain down).
Basically my point in general is that Ivy is too physically susceptible to my team members, and has to hide behind her plants in order to do well here. She constricts Bloodshot? Fine - she eats a couple of these.
Well you said their regeneration would help against the toxins (which I countered btw), so if she saw you regen against that she'd easily know. And never has Ivy had to focus on just one plant. Like...ever.
And she's not helpless, people like Batman, Catwoman, and even Harley (enhanced super soldier) have been easily thwarted.
Taking down catwoman and harley quinn, taking down batgirl with hallucinogenic toxins,restricting batman, and her plant armor thing blocking swords and guns from hurting her.
So even getting close to her doesn't help you...at all.
Plus, you questioned her range, now I showed her controlling plants a city away already and look closer at these pictures
She at least goes down the street and vertically scales buildings with ease so her range is immense in just a second. I imagine in an hour (3600 seconds) she could cover the battlefield. Not a stretch.
Black Panther doesn't currently have vibranium armor, IIRC. Batwing, fair enough, Ivy.. maybe but if she's concentrating on another plant (which seems to be where your plan is heading - Ivy using her plants combatively), then Ninjak can catch her off-guard. Miles would probably sense it, I agree. I'm aware of Cassy's bullet timing feats, but if Ninjak is cloaked and sticking to a wall somewhere up high, Cassy won't see the shuriken coming. It could end up in her brain. If there's no feasible counter for her detecting and avoiding Ninjak while cloaked, then she's as good as dead IMO.
I just showed Ivy's plants defending her just fine, without concentrating much. Plus remember, when Miles and Panther detect Ninjak they're not just gonna play mum. They'll warn everyone else. And yeah...Cassy literally dodged shuriken when she couldn't see them. In fact she caught them and threw them back. Same thing happens to Ninjak.
And that's if he gets by the plants....which he won't.
1. You didn't show their resistance to cutting damage. Ninjak has plenty of bladed weapons, Bloodshot has combat knives, and Luther's karate chops are as good as any knife, being able to shred straight through a human body like butter.
2. It needs to solidify to hold 100 tonners IIRC, but even then Luther can just use his move reading to dodge it, and is a casual bullet timer anyway. Webbing isn't as fast as bullets, so this shouldn't be an issue.
3. Who is she getting by exactly? The two Fetts who will sense her coming a mile away? Who are packing highly powerful blaster rifles/snipers, numerous wrist/missile rockets, thermal detonators, flamethrowers, wrist lasers and more? All of which can be voice activated, and is controlled by a weapons targeting system? They also hae jetpacks, so they can rain down on her from the skies and there isn't much she can do about it, given their Jedi-killing accuracy (beings who are faster than Cassy on top of having battle precog, due to their ability to deflect blaster bolts and innate superhuman speed). Eternal Warrior who is sitting on the flag, waiting for whoever was lucky enough to get by the Fett's bloodied and battered? (Or dead. Dead is more likely).
She's a great martial artist, and she's fast, but she's outnumbered and outgunned. She would get blown to bits trying to get into my flag area.
4. ...
Did you read the scans I posted? The droid, Proxy, was running a simulation where he takes the form of Jango Fett. Once the sonic detonator went off, not only did it deactivate the simulation, returning Proxy to his droid appearance, it also shut down all of his systems. Proxy says it himself. "All my systems are shutting down".
Fett's own helmet wasn't shut down because it's evidently resistant to such attacks. You don't really have a case for the sonic emitter doing anything other than what it says on the tin - shuts down electronic systems. Which is what the majority of Batwing's gear is made from. Bye flight, bye weapons, bye sensors and whatever else he is packing.
1. Just did? Yeah
2. Webbing has always been faster than bullets. Spidey's caught speedsters with it, hit Wolverine with it (guy who easily dodges bullets like nothing) and has of course blocked bullets, caught grenades, and webbed things in the space of a heartbeat (large, large debris). Plus...the webbing's already on the ground and ceiling and surroundings. No way to escape.
3. Yes she's getting by the Fetts. They shoot bullets and missiles. She easily dodges them. Simple as that. Killing Jedis doesn't mean much tbh and Eternal Warrior will simply be taken out easily by a nerve hit. Plus Fetts and Eternal Warrior have to deal with plants, Black Panther, Batwing, etc
4. Yeah look again. The whole simulation didn't deactivate unless you just meant his appearance? That's not relevant to Batwing and his suit. Batwing would merely react like the General did, cover his ears. Hmm how do I explain this better....it overloaded Proxy because he has audio receptors and thus it messed his system up as ALL overloads do. Batwing doesn't have these IIRC and just has human ears so it won't have the same effect. It's not a magical EMP sonic transmitter, just loud sonics.
First scan is nice, but isn't anything Luther can't dance around. He's literally stated (and has later on) that he can dance around dozens of high caliber machine gun bullets all at once, so energy dagger spam wouldn't be a problem. Namor isn't a casual bullet timer, to my knowledge. Tony was busy with Wolverine, and was also under the impression beforehand that T'Challa couldn't even hurt his armor - so he obviously wasn't even trying to dodge the energy daggers. Last scan isn't impressive.
Luther can also dodge bullets AFTER they're fired.
BP doesn't easily outspeed Wolverine or Spider-Man. He can keep up with them both, but then so could Luther. You show me BP tagging them with energy daggers while they're actively trying to dodge them, then we'll talk.
Namor's not a casual bullet timer? The guy who easily tags Wolverine and Thor and the like?
Here are 2 feats that put him that level or above:
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And BP doesn't use his energy daggers on them, he beats them fine without it. He has tagged Iron Fist though (who catches bullets):
7. Avoid the plants or a projectile web. All my team members are fast enough to do so. They don't have to touch the webs, and thanks to my perk they will be perfectly aware of the venom sting. They would likely dispatch Miles and then cut his webs apart, then retrieve the flag. They don't have to fumble onto them like idiots, which is what your plan seems to require.
I brought up bullet timing when I was talking about my team members dodging web projectiles, plants ect.
Black Panther tagged Spider-Man once. That isn't easily outmoving him. That's just landing a single hit. Peter could certainly do the same back. Iron Fist tagged Black Panther during that fight so I don't know why you're using a selective scan of T'Challa blocking his attacks to say he "outmoved" him. T'Challa tagging Wolverine, and Wolverine remarking on his speed is one showing of T'Challa doing well against Wolverine. It isn't a confirmation of him being faster than Wolverine, not is it concluding evidence that he can "easily" outmove him. He just did well against him, partly through fighting skill. The classic age scan is.. okay I guess, and making a guy stab himself is okay.
I don't see anyone on your team being fast enough. Harley's as fast as all of them and she got caught. And they DO have to touch the webs. Basic Knowledge wouldn't let you know something as intimate as the fact Venom Sting can be conducted through webs. Basic Knowledge would let you know that Miles is Spider-Man with extra powers like Venom sting (might not even get details) and Invisibility
Yes Iron Fist tagged BP, but....he also dodged him and outfought him in EVERY SINGLE OTHER PART OF THAT FIGHT! Seriously. People keep getting that wrong. Iron fist literally only tagged BP once and with that ONE flurry.
I have more showings against Wolverine too.
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That's the whole fight, Iron Fist literally only hit him at the end of the fight.
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More Wolverine showings, before BP even got enhanced.
He has others vs. Hand Ninjas, Fantastic 4, Cyclops, etc.
Now I see a grave underestimating of Black Panther, Miles and his Venom Sting, Ivy's Plants, and Cassy's skills. And an overestimation of your guys (it's natural, w/e) and of what 'Basic Knowledge' means.
So...
BP fast enough to easily take out your guys and his energy daggers have hit people far faster than bullets
Ivy's plants take them out first though
Miles's web trap still works
Sonic thing doesn't take out ALL electronics. It just overloads audio.
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