I think with bloodlust on, and no prep, the odds are heavily in DC's favor.
Bloodlusted Marvel can just grab their gems and crush. Otherwise I think DC absolutely wins because of dudes like Zoom, Amazo, and Alan Scott.
To me, bloodlust means going all out, with all of the speedsters DC has, they will do speed of sound decapitations before the gems can even be firmly held on to.
Odin was permanently on Earth, because Asgard was present there longer than in one story. They counts. They are allowed until You will change the rules. You're OP. If You want, You can always change them. For now, IG, HOM Wanda, Franklin, Odin, Zeus,etc. are allowed.
I dont consider a single story arc or even a few years as permanent. Things like Asgard being on Earth is not a permanent situation. Asgard has never been on Earth for most of its existence in Marvel, and no doubt will return to not being on Earth when the story gets around to it. So, the whole thing is a strictly temporary plot development.
I dont want to change the rules because I think they're clear about the intent of the battle, and even about the specifics. There's no point in changing the rules to include every single object or character that's not allowed.
@czarny_samael666 said:
You can simply ban all people in or above Skyfather level.
Yes, in retrospect I should have done that originally, but people would still try to get around that rule too. In any case, I dont like to change the rules after a lot of discussion because at that point it invalidates every post that came before. I want people reading the thread to not be confused because the OP changed the rules 4 or 5 pages into the discussion.
1.Then You have to be more precise in OP. "Most of existance" is far from precision. In that case Thor also isn't Marvel Earth. Nor Hal Jordan in DC Earth.
2.Getting around the rules is point of answering in thread like this. Either way, in the end You will have one-word answer that will end the dabate. For example: -no reality warpers? Gaea and Skyfathers still counts. -anyone above Skyfathers is banned? Telepaths that can't be killed wins the battle. -no telepaths? Wizards or Flashes wins the battle. -no magic and speedblitzing? Elementals and people who can't be normally harmed wins the battle (Juggernaut, Iceman, Void, )
Sooner or later it will end in certain debate, like (just an examples) Void vs Cap. Atom, Martian vs Shaman X-Man, etc.
I am sorry if this disapoint You in some way, but it will end like that. I was a part of battles called DC Earth vs. Marvel Earth and it always comes down to that point. Depends on rules, sometimes it ends with Jim Jaspers, sometimes with Shaman X-Man, sometimes with Gaea.
And about Your rules - if You won't do it, You will have dozen mistaken people here. And debate will go on in the same way it does now.
So not to beat a dead donkey any more but couldn't Prof X just freeze the flashes?
No. Their thoughts move too fast when they're running their fastest, and he can't focus on them before they kill him. Wally has been calculated to move 13 trillion times the speed of light, and has scanned the faces of half a million people in a picosecond, or one trillionth of a second. Zoom is a time manipulator, so he's pretty much as fast as he wants to be. Barry, Jay, Thawne, and Kid Zoom are all FTL. Xavier will be dead before he realizes what's happening.
So not to beat a dead donkey any more but couldn't Prof X just freeze the flashes?
Wally has been immune to telepathy if he speeds up his thoughts enough, which he would do if he was bloodlusted.
@Voorhees100 said:
@Dredeuced said:
@Voorhees100 said:
I think with bloodlust on, and no prep, the odds are heavily in DC's favor.
Bloodlusted Marvel can just grab their gems and crush. Otherwise I think DC absolutely wins because of dudes like Zoom, Amazo, and Alan Scott.
To me, bloodlust means going all out, with all of the speedsters DC has, they will do speed of sound decapitations before the gems can even be firmly held on to.
Speed of sound is lowballing DC speedsters and enormous amount, lol.
Barry died saving the universe from Anti-Monitor by destroying an Anti-Matter reactor. Wally has lost to Zoom a couple of times, and sometimes has trouble with his Rogues, who are specially adapted to fight him. They have special weaponry to slow him down and the like. Mirror Master gives him trouble sometimes, but he could come near to soloing Marvel Earth himself, since he's bloodlusted here. Jay has occasionally had trouble with high-level bricks like Black Adam, but he's far slower than the rest of the Flashes. And he actually improved a lot later in life once Wally taught him some new tricks.
They've never been bloodlusted, though, which would just be an ugly thing to see. Wally doesn't usually operate at picosecond perceptions, but if he was trying to kill people then very few of them could survive. Anyone who could tank a million hits far more powerful than Superman's would just be turned into a statue.
Doesn't Molecule man live on earth? If so i'm gonna have to say PR MM solos. If he doesn't live on marvel earth, I think Franklin Richards and the Scarlet Witch will be a huge advantage for Marvel team. Then again, i'm not too familiar with DC reality warpers so my answer has a bias towards Marvel.
Doesn't Molecule man live on earth? If so i'm gonna have to say PR MM solos. If he doesn't live on marvel earth, I think Franklin Richards and the Scarlet Witch will be a huge advantage for Marvel team. Then again, i'm not too familiar with DC reality warpers so my answer has a bias towards Marvel.
PR Molecule Man means Pre retcon, which is obviously before the time period the OP stated. That said, he is still a cosmic cube being and still immensely powerful, if he does count for this.
DC speedsters might win this for them since the Marvel reality warpers wouldn't be able to do anything by the time the speedsters get to them. After all the street levelers and semi-powerful heros are crushed there wouldn't be to much left other than Sentry, Blackbolt (maybe?), Hulk (maybe?), Ghost Rider, Dr, Strange, etc. Marvel doesn't stand much of a chance.
Marvels best chance of beating DC speedsters are their superior machines. like Ultron, Nimrod, sentinels etc...having said that ok the flashes wipe out many low level characters but thats bound to happen the weak on both side will die 1st...what can the flash do against beings like the hulk, colossus, blob, wendigo...fliers...force fielders (magneto, polaris, invisible woman) kitty pride with her phase shift so theres still many that would survive the Flash I think...I think it boils down to who has the capability of dealing the most damage on either side and in marvels case survive a speed blitz because in the end all it takes is 1?
Marvels best chance of beating DC speedsters are their superior machines. like Ultron, Nimrod, sentinels etc...having said that ok the flashes wipe out many low level characters but thats bound to happen the weak on both side will die 1st...what can the flash do against beings like the hulk, colossus, blob, wendigo...fliers...force fielders (magneto, polaris, invisible woman) kitty pride with her phase shift so theres still many that would survive the Flash I think...I think it boils down to who has the capability of dealing the most damage on either side and in marvels case survive a speed blitz because in the end all it takes is 1?
In order, and this is assuming Wally West:
Hulk: He can explode all his molecules apart, or IMP him into the sun, or Speed Steal him into a useless statue.
Colossus: You kidding me? Flash can KO Mongul or a White Martian with a single hit, Colossus durability can't even compare to an IMP. Also Speed Steal and blow him up like Hulk. He can also just phase his brain out of his head like he did to Amazo
Blob: Ditto of the above two. Nowhere near Mongul level durability, no counter to speed steal, no counter to being exploded, no counter to brain removal
Wendigo: Ditto all the above
Fliers: Wally can fly, Speed steal prevents flight. Throw a lightspeed rock at their head, hit them before they fly
Force Fielders: Speed Steal, Throw a light speed rock at their forcefield, hit them before the forcefield, hit them harder than their forcefield can handle depending on who it is (Again, he punches harder than Superman if it's Wally or Zoom).
Kitty Pryde/Phasers: Wally's molecular kinetic control has allowed him to force other phasers to unphase, so he could kill them quite easily.
Keep going. I already said Marvel wins, but I like to correct people about what Wally/Zoom are capable of.
How would he explode hishulks molecules apart? I thought the flash was just fast ur telling me he has superman strength to? He can fly to? U still have to have a hell of an arm be accurate to hit a flier with a rock haha
This just occurred to me, can Flash speed-steal the entire Marvel Earth?
Also, remember that DC has bloodlusted Alan Scott, who might come close to soloing Marvel Earth himself... like he did DC Earth.
Technically, but it'd take time (large objects are difficult to steal, so a large amount of people would be, too) -- there's no limit to the amount of speed Wally can steal, he even once did it to the entire Earth, but he is limited by time and I believe he needs to see his target. I doubt they'd just sit around and do nothing while he tries, but Wally is definitely one of DC Earth's greatest weapons. If Bloodlusted, it'd be hard for anyone on Marvel to even realize Wally and Zoom were killing hordes of their heroes to the picosecond.
@czarny_samael666: HOM Wanda with control of her power is a scary concept, real scary concept, but she never really had full control over her power. If she doesnt get blitz, an omniversal reality warper is nigh-impossible to stop, and in Wanda's case its not a theory, she did warp and later healed the entire damn omniverse, a feat in marvel unmatched so far, to the best of my knowledge.
This just occurred to me, can Flash speed-steal the entire Marvel Earth?
Also, remember that DC has bloodlusted Alan Scott, who might come close to soloing Marvel Earth himself... like he did DC Earth.
Well not too sure about Wanda's power level then but if she was indeed on her HOM Power Level i dont see how Alan could handle that. Wanda and Alan , unless we are talking a version where starheart is in control as opposed to Alan himself, have problems using their power, both have great potential, but here Wanda has a feat of power that is very, very , very hard to match. IG and Nemesis themselves fell short to match HOM Wanda's feat :p, and they were meant to be gods.
is Thor, Sentry, Ghost Rider and Silver Surfer there?if so, I'm going with MARVEL.
You're going to have to back up your claim of Marvel winning with more firepower than this. Hell, Alan Scott can probably solo these 4.
I know it's old post but Alan Scot is not killing Ghost Rider he can't but GR can and SS should be able to take out Alan Scott remember SS is also bloodlusted and you know what he can do if he is not holding back.
So not to beat a dead donkey any more but couldn't Prof X just freeze the flashes?
No. Their thoughts move too fast when they're running their fastest, and he can't focus on them before they kill him. Wally has been calculated to move 13 trillion times the speed of light, and has scanned the faces of half a million people in a picosecond, or one trillionth of a second. Zoom is a time manipulator, so he's pretty much as fast as he wants to be. Barry, Jay, Thawne, and Kid Zoom are all FTL. Xavier will be dead before he realizes what's happening.
Only Barry, Wally and Zoom are FTL according to Garrick. And their real problem would be telepaths that can survive without body, like Shaman X-Man (who also can stop time), Sinister and Shadow King. I am not sure about others, but I am almost sure that Xavier did it before too.
@18hunt said:
@DireDrill said:
No one on Marvel Earth can handle DC Speedsters.
kinda true, so im kinda shiftng to DC, they also have Black Adam
Black Adam is nothing in this battle. And DC speedsters can't deal with: Hera(with Zeus powers), Odin, Gaea, Shaman X-Man, Void, Tiamut, Proteus, Pulsar, Shadow King, Hercules (he was Skyfather in 2010), Sinister, Molecule Man (he was ripped apart and still alive), Selene, Destroyer and Ghost Riders. I can look for more, but they aren't needed. @WillPayton said:
This just occurred to me, can Flash speed-steal the entire Marvel Earth?
Also, remember that DC has bloodlusted Alan Scott, who might come close to soloing Marvel Earth himself... like he did DC Earth.
Wouldn't matter. He never stealed speed of beings near Skyfather level to my knowledge and he can't touch some of Marvel people. Not too mention that even if their bodies will be down, Shadow King and Shaman can posses his body.
@Killemall said:
@czarny_samael666: HOM Wanda with control of her power is a scary concept, real scary concept, but she never really had full control over her power. If she doesnt get blitz, an omniversal reality warper is nigh-impossible to stop, and in Wanda's case its not a theory, she did warp and later healed the entire damn omniverse, a feat in marvel unmatched so far, to the best of my knowledge.
Agree. @Killemall said:
@WillPayton said:
This just occurred to me, can Flash speed-steal the entire Marvel Earth?
Also, remember that DC has bloodlusted Alan Scott, who might come close to soloing Marvel Earth himself... like he did DC Earth.
Well not too sure about Wanda's power level then but if she was indeed on her HOM Power Level i dont see how Alan could handle that. Wanda and Alan , unless we are talking a version where starheart is in control as opposed to Alan himself, have problems using their power, both have great potential, but here Wanda has a feat of power that is very, very , very hard to match. IG and Nemesis themselves fell short to match HOM Wanda's feat :p, and they were meant to be gods.
She was. Children Crusade ended in 2011 or even 2012.
How would he explode hishulks molecules apart? I thought the flash was just fast ur telling me he has superman strength to? He can fly to? U still have to have a hell of an arm be accurate to hit a flier with a rock haha
Flash can vibrate the molecules of anything he phases through violently until they separate at the molecular level. It's a very long established power Wally has (and for some time, it was a hindrance, as it happened to EVERYTHING he phased through), he has even stated he can tear apart people molecularly when he owned Inertia, but doesn't do it because, well, he's not evil.
He doesn't have Superman's strength, no. Superman can lift the planet or pick up things much heavier than what Wally can pick up. Wally, however, CAN punch as hard or harder than Superman. He's KO'd Mongul, A White Martian and Professor Zoom all in one blow, things Superman can't do without sundipping. He's also completely destroyed the anti-monitor's armor faster than the Anti-Monitor could perceive him, which the entire combined might of DC Earth (which included the likes of Superman, Captain Marvel, etc) could only barely do while Wally was amping them himself. Wally hits EXTREMELY hard when he's going all out because of how expertly he can control his own relative mass.
Flash can Fly(though it is one of his lesser used abilities, he has done it a few times), so fliers aren't a big deal, but Flash's throwing accuracy is ABSURD because of how advanced his mind is. He's split bullets in half by throwing knives before. He could also throw so many so fast that it'd blanket the sky so much that the fliers couldn't dodge, even if they had light speed reactions TO dodge his rocks, or just speed steal them the way he speed steals bullets.
@czarny_samael666 said:
Wouldn't matter. He never stealed speed of beings near Skyfather level to my knowledge and he can't touch some of Marvel people. Not too mention that even if their bodies will be down, Shadow King and Shaman can posses his body.
He's speed stolen Anti Monitor, so yeah, he's speed stolen dudes WELL above Skyfather level. He also speed stole the entire Earth (that one scan where MMH, Wonder Woman and Superman are trying to pull the planet has Wally talking to himself that it's just like stealing the speed of a really big bullet)
I agree with you that Marvel wins, btw, I'm just trying to clarify the breadth of Wally's powers because, well, I know a lot about Wally, lol.
@scyven: They don't have any particularly good Sentinel analogues, no. They're probably outclassed telepathically, too.
One of the biggest advantages that DC has is the Flash and Zoom families. Bloodlusted, they'll quite literally kill every Marvel Earth inhabitant that doesn't have durability well above Superman. And they'll do it within the first couple of seconds of the battle. The Speed Force lets them run through space, and Zoom and Wally have already had a fight where they covered every inch of the Earth in under a second. If they punched their enemies instead of each other, and were accompanied by Barry, Jay, Thawne, Inertia, and Jesse Quick, they'll dominate almost everyone in a couple of seconds.
All dc guys are forgetting that marval has an army of skyfathers, Franklin Richards, and a bunch of other people.
@Epicbeast3000: Kid Franklin Richards has no durability, so he gets blitzed. Wally has broken through Anti-Monitor's armor, so very few people have the durability to stand up to him. And OP has stated that Asgard isn't on Marvel Earth, things like that. Which skyfathers are you thinking of? Speedsters probably can't solo, but they can take out everyone without Skyfather-level durability, and turn anyone left into a statue.
In the first picosecond, 95% of Marvel Earth is dead.
Some people here have downplayed Jakeem Thunder's 5th dimensional ally as though his power was nothing but that is ridiculous. The Joker with 99% of a 5th dimensional being's power was able to slap the Spectre around. Jakeem Thunder need only say So Cool, GIve Joker Your Powers, and Marvel is dead.
Council of Godheads would have to face the Phantom Stranger, Spectre, Alan Scott, Fate, and the Entity.
@Esquire: Anti monitor got punched out by supergirl. I think the skyfathers are more durable than that. Any skyfather alone could solo entire dc world.
@DireDrill: Joker's powers were not permanent, and it was non canon. Phantom stranger,spectre,fate, and entiity dont live on Earth. Alan Scott is tought, but not even near skyfather level.
That timeline was Canon but it was erased after Supes and Batman defeated him. The Entity lives in the Earth and has been there since the dawn of time, it is most definitely on Earth during 2010 since that is when Brightest Day started. It has lived on Earth longer than everyone else here.
The Phantom Stranger is a product of Earth and as such is a perfectly valid competitor here.
You also might have to deal with Black Alice who can simply become one of the Skyfathers as she has stolen the Spectre's powers.
Spectre was on Earth during 2010 and had been since he took Crispus Allen.
Council of Godheads will also have to face off against the various Gods that empower Black Adam and Captain Marvel as they do live on Earth.
Wouldn't matter. He never stealed speed of beings near Skyfather level to my knowledge and he can't touch some of Marvel people. Not too mention that even if their bodies will be down, Shadow King and Shaman can posses his body.
He's speed stolen Anti Monitor, so yeah, he's speed stolen dudes WELL above Skyfather level. He also speed stole the entire Earth (that one scan where MMH, Wonder Woman and Superman are trying to pull the planet has Wally talking to himself that it's just like stealing the speed of a really big bullet)
I agree with you that Marvel wins, btw, I'm just trying to clarify the breadth of Wally's powers because, well, I know a lot about Wally, lol.
Which AM? If COIE - it was rectonned. If SCW - then he is below Skyfather level, since galaxy level explosion actually took him down. I've read SCW and I don't recall Flash taking on AM.
@Esquire said:
@Epicbeast3000: Kid Franklin Richards has no durability, so he gets blitzed. Wally has broken through Anti-Monitor's armor, so very few people have the durability to stand up to him. And OP has stated that Asgard isn't on Marvel Earth, things like that. Which skyfathers are you thinking of? Speedsters probably can't solo, but they can take out everyone without Skyfather-level durability, and turn anyone left into a statue.
1.Shaman X-Man will survive, stop time and finish all DC people who are below Skyfather level (are there any who are above in this thread?). Then he can free Void from time stopping and Void will bring back Wanda to life. Wanda ends DC Earth. 2.Asgard is on Earth. Simply creator of this thread doesn't want to change the rules and he takes out people from only one-side. Or I should say - he want to take them out, but without changing the rules, he didn't do it. And I've already tried to explain to him, that full battle between DC and Marvel won't happen here. There will always be some "easy answer" that can end whole battle fast. Not that taking Asgard would change anything - Hera, Tiamut and Gaea are still there. And it would be hard to say that Gaea isn't Earth based hero :-P
@Esquire said:
@Epicbeast3000: None of them are Anti-Monitor-Level...
Gallery
@Empurios: The only ones who could at all pose a problem to the DC Speedster Squad are Dr. Strange and Ghost Rider.
When has it happen? Problems for Speedsters? Pulsar, Sinister, Shadow King, Shaman X-Man, Void, Molecule Man, Gaea, Tiamut, Odin, Hera (with Zeus power) Serpent, Destroyer... Now, since half of them can bring people to life, HOM Wanda and Franklin actually matters here.
Wally West went back in time during the Chain Lightning story arc -- history was altered and it caused Barry to die before the fight with COIE Anti Monitor and before he took out the anti matter cannon in COIE, and Wally had to go back in time and fix it. He tried to by speed stealing anti monitor and giving it to the DC Earth heroes. When Anti Monitor still stopped them, Wally went berserk and wrecked him before having to retreat, as he had no way to hurt Anti Monitor in his energy form.
If you want more clarification on the situation: Barry's evil twin Malcom Thawne was going through time messing with speedsters, and Wally was the one who had to stop him. He failed when Thawne caused the death of Barry before he could destroy the anti matter cannon, and thus Anti Monitor had a stronger balance of anti matter to matter when the fight finally came as stated here:
Doubt what you will, but that's a pretty plain statement that Wally was not only beating up COIE Anti Monitor, but that it was actually a stronger version.
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