I wasn't going to flag you.I knew it was no disrespect to me. I know what you meant. Yea and they did lose to the Flash. Runner knows about other people outside of his omniverse. He held a race to see which person was the fastest of all. Flash ended up winning the race. Makkari came in second, and Runner came in third. You can look up ontheir pages and you'll see. Go to the Runners comicvine page or Makkari. It's on barrys also. So technnically it wasn't a crossover.
I already stated that telepath doesn't work on Flash and you can't just warp time around you. It's either he's warping time or he's slowing down his time which he isn't doing any of the two. And that would still need reaction time. By the time he tries to enable his powers he'd already be punched in the face and die. He has never slowed down time and I don't see that in his powers list on comicvine.
Cursing still would get you banned. Curising is Cursising. Your not going to say that infront of your 5 year old kid now would you? They say it's supposed ot be "Kid Friendly".
Flash is to fast for the runner to even touch. He isn't beating anyone up. He has no feats to prove that he's faster so I don't know how your backing him up so much. Flash can just Speed Steal. Silver Surer got beat by Thor so that means he can be hurt by force. Flash gives him a few IMP's before he cna react and he is going to die.
I am not arguing who is Faster, it is quite irrelevant due to The Runner being a cosmic being that is eternal and virtually unkillable. His stats surpass that of the silver surfer, so He could indeed defeat flash.
You dismiss the true power of a reality warper like Franklin Richards, he has created his own dimension, a universe of his creation. He can basically warp reality to anything his mind can fathom, slowing down time in not a hard task for such a powerful being. If he slowed down time to a complete standstill around him, no one could possibly even hurt him, the closer they got, the slower time would get for them. Regardless, Franklin Richards if he decided to kill people, they would be dead before they would even think to attack him, he would not have to even show himself to mind !@#$ someone. No one would know the danger of this guy, and he, if bloodlusted would simply destroy anyone he can reach with his mind with ease. Now if you look back, I did say most of dc, there are some he might not be able to defeat, but he could destroy most of dc comics with just a thought.
Show me an instants in Marvel where a strong reality warper has been speed blitzed and defeated. :D
They can be touched. So that means they can be speed blitzed. I don't think you get the conecpt of reaction time. And they would eventually have to get defeated. Everyone loses in comics and everyone wins. It would be pointless if tehy can't lost. Most of which are physical contact
@Cable_Extreme: I tend to agree about Franklin. The only thing that stops him for the most part - He normally has morals. Without those, he would be devastating. Same with Scarlet Witch. We have seen what she can do when she doesn't give a crap. She's not even in the same class as Franklin though.
If you're going to mention Franklin, at least mention Darhma. I've stated this time and time again. Darhma was a multiversal entity that can warp reality on a universal, sometimes multiuniversal scale.
@Cable_Extreme: I tend to agree about Franklin. The only thing that stops him for the most part - He normally has morals. Without those, he would be devastating. Same with Scarlet Witch. We have seen what she can do when she doesn't give a crap. She's not even in the same class as Franklin though.
Being an inexperienced child is what stop's Franklin, if he ever gains control on a permanent basis he will befall the same fate as Jean Grey. Wanda's depowered.
@Cable_Extreme: I tend to agree about Franklin. The only thing that stops him for the most part - He normally has morals. Without those, he would be devastating. Same with Scarlet Witch. We have seen what she can do when she doesn't give a crap. She's not even in the same class as Franklin though.
Yeah, If it was an all out battle, then it wouldn't be a 1v1 match like people are trying to do, it would be an all out kill fest with everyone blood lusted. I don't see someone getting speedblitzed if they are blood lusted and a reality warper who is probably sitting in his room. Hde could contact all the minds and simply make them kill themselves. Or take them apart atomically. This is a bad example, but remember in the X-men movie when professor X stopped everyone in the museum? Think about that, but stopping time, and walking through everything just killing your targets with time completely stopped. He could stop time in his room and then walk out, I don't see him getting speed blitzed unless it was a 1v1 match where he started like 30 feet away or something.
@Cable_Extreme: I tend to agree about Franklin. The only thing that stops him for the most part - He normally has morals. Without those, he would be devastating. Same with Scarlet Witch. We have seen what she can do when she doesn't give a crap. She's not even in the same class as Franklin though.
Being an inexperienced child is what stop's Franklin, if he ever gains control on a permanent basis he will befall the same fate as Jean Grey. Wanda's depowered.
So, he would become even more lethal? Remember he is blood lusted, and probably will go that far.
@Needlebay: Yeah, I picked Franklin because it was the first one that came to mind.
Marvel definitely has the more popular, well known reality warpers. DC has quite a few, but don't use them as often. In some cases, they are just as powerful, if not more so.
@Cable_Extreme: Probably? No, definitely... In some ways, his lack of control makes him all the more dangerous. He might kill EVERY DCU person on accident, or BUMP everyone powers to SUPER EXTREME levels, as he has done in the past. Or on reflex, create a pocket universe where everyone is safe. The INSTANT BL is applied, he might reflexively do any number of things to save the MU or totally destroy the DCU. He doesn't even need to think about it. It could be no more than a twitch reflex from the very BL itself.
He didn't "mean" to create another universe for the heroes, he didn't "mean" to increase the FFs powers to the point they could hardy control them. It was just a natural response. The second the speesters know to act and start their blitz may be the very second BL'd Franklin BL'd does something immense, warps all reality, kills all of DCU or increases everyones power to extreme levels. As he has in the past. He doesn't need to plan, think or analyze, it might just happen from the BL.
@Cable_Extreme: Probably? No, definitely... In some ways, his lack of control makes him all the more dangerous. He might kill EVERY DCU person on accident, or BUMP everyone powers to SUPER EXTREME levels, as he has done in the past. or create a pocket universe where everyone is safe on reflex. the instant BL is applied, he might reflexivily do any number of things to save the MU or totally destroy the DCU. He doesn't even need to think about it. It could be no more than a twitch reflex from the very BL itself. he didn't "mean" to create another universe for the heroes, he didn't "mean" to increase the FFs powers to the point they could hardy control them. It was just a natural response.
Well, I could name other reality warpers if you want, the fact is if he was blood lusted he could kill almost every dcu person with a thought. We could play the possibility game, but that isn't the fighting standard. It is a vs match, just like we could say flash vs batman, and then say flash could trip and fall into a teleporter and go into a different dimension. We both know flash would probably win. Just like Franklin would probably win. But that is not within the limit of a vs match.
Amazo is great, but he CAN'T recreate everything. PERIOD. Fine he's stronger than SAdaptoid, and would eventually win. Although SAdaptoid can copy the speedsters powers too. Anyway, only reason I brough him in is Amazo is NOT a trump card that makes ALL of MU fall over dead. there will still be a fight, just like there ALWAYS is when Amazo fights people in the DCU. Why when he fights the MU would the rules be different? They aren't. If what you present about Amazo is true, all heroes in DC would be long defeated.
They usually do get defeated. But, the enemy can't always win so they can just add PIS or CIS. Anyimt e he ifhts them he usually beat the crap out of everyone. But, how fair would it be if he kept on winning. Just as I explained to you how powerful Flash was but, he ends up losing. Or how Icon should technically be able to beat Superman rather easily. He can most of Marvel alone since he's copying everyone's powers. S-Adaptiod is just a rip-off but, that's not the point. S-Adaptiod has never been shown to do constructs of any kind. I'll show you a pic of Amazo. You cna also search up his power set.
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It's hard finding many scans of Amazo. You can also take Tiny-Superheros into consideration. Or you cna look at his comicvine page.
Quciksilver is NOT the fast one in Marvel. Hell, he's not even the fastest RUNNER. He's not even the fastest mutant. Northstar is light speed. Photon is light speed. And in Marvel, Light speed stops time. (Unless you take other things into account that circumvent that rule, in most cases comic book physics still apply) I say this because Quicksilver was never mentioned as a real counter to the DC speedsters (at least by me and all the posts I've read form others tonight). Phonton was, Northstar was and Maybe Sentry to name a few.
Simple mistake but, all of those guys you've named, I bet you cna't come up with one speed feat which proves there even remotely close to Flash.
People hide ALL the time. that's the whole point of a secret base. Doom is forever hidden behind Doombots and "impenetrable" mystic and scientific shield. Dr. Strange hides himself from MOST planes of awareness. including the physical one. Last I new, his home looked like a Starbucks. You whole point here about nobody hides has zero merrit. The OP NEVER said everyone was magically lined up on a big battle field waiting for combat. Waiting for the speedsters to kill them all. just about EVERY villian in both DCU and the MU hide. Most heroes do too.
No they don't. You don't hide in battle. Thanos doesn't hide, Hulk doesn't hide, JLA doesn't hide, X-Men doesn't hide, no-one does.
There's a difference between "hiding" and "plotting in a secret base". Dr. Doom doesn't fight the Fantastic 4 in his secret base. That's where he plots then he acutaly goes OUTSIDE and attack. They NEVER hide in battle. And the OP NEVER said that there's regular Humans that would get in Flash way. He said they both think each-other is evil and no prep, just the tech they have. That means their going to have to go and and fight instead of staying in one place. And if your hiding in battle, how are you winning?
Do the speedsters have INFINITE stamina? NO!!! Do they tire, and tire fast when at that level of power use?? YES! Does superman lose energy when he goes ALL out? Yes!!! He is a living solar battery, and like any battery, he can drain his energy.
AS long as Superman is under the sun he isn't going to get tired. Flash is backed up by the Speed Force, an INFINITE amount of energy. He ran around Earth six times/ or I think it was for 6 days straight, doesn't matter still didn't tire. He also ran from the end of time and space(had to beat Black Flash, death has no meaning at the end of time). So yes, Flash does has an infinite amount of stanima because of the Speed Force. You think he's going to get tired just by sweeping the Earth?
The only way the speester argument works is if the NEVER make a mistake, magically know where EVERYONE is EVERYWHERE and can get to them.
I never said that. He would eventually find them since he cna circle the planet a few times in much less than a second and I'm pretty sure he'd realise a house full of mutants or realize a cool looking stark tower. And like I've stated before THERE IS MORE THAN ONE FLASH!
You are right, but this Superman by the OPs rules doesn't lift 200 Quintillion tons. You don't get to pick whatever version of these characters you want, you must follow the OPs guidelines. Those are PRE-52!!!! Not a Grant Morrison Elseworlds tale. BOTH the DC Speedsters and Superman lose ALL the time in there own universe and comics. There is no reason they get to have all knowing, all perfect actions. if they did, the DCU would have no more villians. They aren't God, the make mistakes and only have there normal resources. The Speedsters and Supers don't know EVERYTHING.
No-where in this did you mention that Superman wasn't stronger than everyone. Yes he does lift 200 Quintillion tons. That was pre-52. That was his best pre-52 feat. What do you mean "There is no reason they get to have all knowing, all perfect actions. if they did, the DCU would have no more villians. They aren't God, the make mistakes and only have there normal resources. The Speedsters and Supers don't know EVERYTHING."
This is what I'm talking about illrelvance. I just said Superman is stronger than them by pointing out his best strength feat. You come out of no-where talking about their not God when I never said their a god. And you expect him to go in battle not knowing he can lift 200 Quintillion tons? And how is lifting that make him a God, and why are you bringing up "mistakes". I don't know how you get Superman making "mistakes" and talking about he's not a god when I only said he lifted 200 Quintillion Tons. I never said anything about Speedsters int hat comment either.
NOW FOR THE BIG BIG ONE! And where I make you look COMPLETELY stupid like how I did before.
Just like Flash NORMALLY wins. But Flash doesn't ALWAYS win.... FFS, Guys who throw boomerangs and shoot cold beams have beat him. Yet you put Flash WAY up on a pedestal where he can't be beat.
Flash doesn't try when he faces the rouges.
Even tho you got upset when someone did the same with Doom. This is comic books we are talking about.
Now let's go back to what I said.
"Oh how I hate when people try to defend Doom. SOMEHOW he is ready for his Universe and another universe colliding that he knows NOTHING about, never knew the characters, and knows NOTHING about the characters from DC. SMH"
Just because I said I hate when people try to defend Doom doesn't mean I'm mad. It's like how your with your firends and something comes up and you say "I hate when that happens". And I was right when I said that. How is Doom going to surive without prep, doesn't know anything about the other characters, nor this universe even existed. ANYIME Doom has his fight he has prep and knows about the person.
Flash has lost from slipping on a damn banana before!!!!! yet you say he and the other speedsters will FOR SURE, NO MATTER, KILL 98%
This is bloodlusted Flash. Usually when flash does his fails he isn't bloodlusted at all. Half of the time he isn't even trying. He can kill them if he WANTED TO. JLA's rule is to NOT kill people. This is a bloodlusted Flash. That isn't going to happen and he's going to kill. you guys still can't give me a list on WHO can take a couple of IMP's or who cna take the disorder of molecules. So you can't say "He can't kill 98% of the people. You yourself admitted that most of them will die. You haven't shown me ANY proof on why Flash can't do it, so why should I change me mind on what I said? You haven't given me a reason to.
You make these staements based on what you have seen and believe of the speedsters, Just as he did of Doom. And serious conversation about top Villains will include Doom, and he would be included based on all the things he has done in comics. Like NORAMMLY always be prepared... Just like Flash NORMALLY always wins... even tho he can lost to a simple fruit peel. Or pebbles he didn't notice that made him trip.
READ MORE COMICS! Everything Doom has did dealt with prep. How are you going to prepare for a Universe or characters froma Universe you've NEVER EVEN HEARD OF! That makes no sense what-so-ever. If he was prepared for everything that would mean he can beat everyone.
My friend, that is almost the very definition of fanboy. A fanboy will NEVER hear any argument but the one the believe to be true. No matter the common sense or evidence presented. Doom has taken over the planet more than once, and the very 616 universe itself. I'm not saying Doom can't be beat, but he is one of the few villains that deserves his pedestal. And if you don't think he does, you either haven't read Marvel or you are just refusing to see it out of stubborn fanboyism,
I'll restate this again. All of what Doom has did included prep. This battle specifically stated NO PREP. That is common sense. You obviously need to read mroe of his comics. When has he ever did something big without prep? Batman can take out the whole JLA if he wanted to. Superman has taken over Earth more than once. Mr. Fantastic can take over the planet if he wants also. YOUR POINT? There is no prep int his battle. You believing he is unbeatable even without prep if fanboyism. I never said Flash was unbeatable. I said he can take otu about all of everyone on Marvel Earth.
@Cable_Extreme: Probably? No, definitely... In some ways, his lack of control makes him all the more dangerous. He might kill EVERY DCU person on accident, or BUMP everyone powers to SUPER EXTREME levels, as he has done in the past. or create a pocket universe where everyone is safe on reflex. the instant BL is applied, he might reflexivily do any number of things to save the MU or totally destroy the DCU. He doesn't even need to think about it. It could be no more than a twitch reflex from the very BL itself. he didn't "mean" to create another universe for the heroes, he didn't "mean" to increase the FFs powers to the point they could hardy control them. It was just a natural response. The second the speesters know to act and start their blitz may be the very second BL'd Franklin BL'd does something immense. As he has in the past. he doesn't need to plan, think or anything, it would just happen from the BL.
Tim Hunter created hundreds of universes subconsciously, without even realizing what he was doing or any decrease of power. An alternate Tim Hunter was also the one who not only killed all the mystics in the universe, but SPECTRE as well.
Well, I could name other reality warpers if you want, the fact is if he was blood lusted he could kill almost every dcu person with a thought. We could play the possibility game, but that isn't the fighting standard. It is a vs match, just like we could say flash vs batman, and then say flash could trip and fall into a teleporter and go into a different dimension. We both know flash would probably win. Just like Franklin would probably win. But that is not within the limit of a vs match.
Are you crazy?
You dismiss the true power of a reality warper like Franklin Richards, he has created his own dimension, a universe of his creation. He can basically warp reality to anything his mind can fathom, slowing down time in not a hard task for such a powerful being. If he slowed down time to a complete standstill around him, no one could possibly even hurt him, the closer they got, the slower time would get for them. Regardless, Franklin Richards if he decided to kill people, they would be dead before they would even think to attack him, he would not have to even show himself to mind !@#$ someone. No one would know the danger of this guy, and he, if bloodlusted would simply destroy anyone he can reach with his mind with ease. Now if you look back, I did say most of dc, there are some he might not be able to defeat, but he could destroy most of dc comics with just a thought.
How much times do I have to say, he has never slowed down time nor he has the reaction time to enable these powers. Anyone with Super-Speed can speed blitz him.
I am not arguing who is Faster, it is quite irrelevant due to The Runner being a cosmic being that is eternal and virtually unkillable. His stats surpass that of the silver surfer, so He could indeed defeat flash.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? I already said Flash can just Speed Steal him. He has never shown a counter for that. He would just be sitting there forever, immortal, at the far end of space where no-one ges, alone, forever....
@Needlebay: Sure, that's fine, would be a matter of who's warp hit 1st or last (nor sure how they would "stack" lol) or was more powerful. Either way, nothing stated about Franklin is untrue, but it also doesn't negate what you just presented.
Who are the time manipulators for Marvel? I know a lot of these guys aren't from 2010, but DC has or used to have Hourman 1M, Per Degaton, Waverider, Professor Zoom, Epoch, etc...
@Casublett: Lmao I prove a point and you ignore it. I amde you look stupid just now. If everyone else read what I and you jsut said, they'd agree that I made you look stupid. You have shown no proof at all while all of my accusations have proof backing it up. Admit I made you look stupid and you have no-comeback you so don't want to reply.
YOU COULD HAVE ATLEAST MAKE A LIST TO SHUT ME UP, ATLEAST
@Needlebay: Umm, Well, some of that would depend of what you mean. there are the ones who manipulate time ala Doom and Richards, and others who have actually become one with time (The old "calm" version of Kang, Immortus and those he "watched over time" for), or those that time has no meaning for.
But for the Stakes of this match? It would be the tech (Doom, Reed like peeps) guys, Maybe Kang or Immortus, I don't know where and what they are up to in 2010 and the Mystic or reality warpers.
@Needlebay: Hmmm, ok, I'll need to do a lil digging, but Marvel and DC handle fundamental elements of the universe very differently. Normally things like that (outside of reality warping, for some reason Marvel LOVES those guys), fundamental forces are reserved for Gods and Avatars. Tho mystic can and do and power houses like Surfer, it's normally for the embodiments of various concepts to wield that form of power. Or someone normal, like Korvac to achieve a form of Godhood. Lemme look up some time wielders and get back to you.
@Casublett: I just someone to make a list of atleat 10 people who can't be speed blitzed or surivie the disorder of molecules that aren't amped up versions.
Your going to call me a fanboy and said I was wrong. But, then I asked you to prove me wrong you can't do it?
Give me 10 characters for both who can take IMP's and can survive disorder of moecular control.
Here's time peeps link from Marvel, not many good links, but this seems about right. It's not really listing time wielders tho, it has some, but that's mostly people who can or have traveled in time.
Well, I could name other reality warpers if you want, the fact is if he was blood lusted he could kill almost every dcu person with a thought. We could play the possibility game, but that isn't the fighting standard. It is a vs match, just like we could say flash vs batman, and then say flash could trip and fall into a teleporter and go into a different dimension. We both know flash would probably win. Just like Franklin would probably win. But that is not within the limit of a vs match.
Are you crazy?
You dismiss the true power of a reality warper like Franklin Richards, he has created his own dimension, a universe of his creation. He can basically warp reality to anything his mind can fathom, slowing down time in not a hard task for such a powerful being. If he slowed down time to a complete standstill around him, no one could possibly even hurt him, the closer they got, the slower time would get for them. Regardless, Franklin Richards if he decided to kill people, they would be dead before they would even think to attack him, he would not have to even show himself to mind !@#$ someone. No one would know the danger of this guy, and he, if bloodlusted would simply destroy anyone he can reach with his mind with ease. Now if you look back, I did say most of dc, there are some he might not be able to defeat, but he could destroy most of dc comics with just a thought.
How much times do I have to say, he has never slowed down time nor he has the reaction time to enable these powers. Anyone with Super-Speed can speed blitz him.
I am not arguing who is Faster, it is quite irrelevant due to The Runner being a cosmic being that is eternal and virtually unkillable. His stats surpass that of the silver surfer, so He could indeed defeat flash.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? I already said Flash can just Speed Steal him. He has never shown a counter for that. He would just be sitting there forever, immortal, at the far end of space where no-one ges, alone, forever....
"I heard a theory that explains why characters never age. Franklin Richards is using his powers to slow time down, and no one notices. The kid created a universe, this wouldn't be too hard. I like the idea, as it allows the stories to happen in the period they were written stay that way, but allows the characters to stay young."
--Caesar Godzillatron
Franklin Richard controls time to keep himself young, examples would be when he sees he has 6 candles on his birthday cake and he changes reality to where it is five. He changed the time to make him 5 years old instead of six. He can control time.
In 1982 he feels his body changing As his mind warps reality he makes himself complete the process in minutes, becoming an adult, and is very confused (see FF245). Reed and Sue managed to turn the mental dampers back on, and he de-aged again.
@Cable_Extreme: You mean decelerated aging? Flash can easily go back in time and do the same thing. He's changing reality. Not slowing down or stopping time around him.
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Edit: And like I said, he would have to activite his powers which takes REACTION TIME. I don't know how much times I have to say this. It would be like putting Wolverine in a room with his fist on Iris West throat and he's in the same room as Flash. There's a timer on teh wall and once it says start both wolverine and Flash can move. Flash is going to get there first since he has a better reaction time to use his power first. So Wolverine wont even be able to do anything.
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