DC abstracts vs Marvel abstracts

@Kingant27: do not think so. the beings LT deals with can destroy even beings like kismet the living universe with a casual wave, Odin would apply for the job, feel dead cool for a few moments then feel just dead.

LT solos

Team 1

Wow.

Someone actually claiming Lucifer could solo this even while "depowered" is definitely one of the most horrendously overwanked things about a character I've ever read, if not THE most.

Hands down.

@XiiX: I think he meant that lucifer could manipulate his way out. but LT is beyond manipulation because he has no will of his own. this last bit is directed towards the said person.

@van_cere: LT solos, Michael and Lucifer together is a better match.

@Kingant27: no, just, no. try not to let your own wishes get in the way of your mind, which is not a bad one too.

your idea is not even your own. other people used to think (like, 5-6 years ago) that lucifer plus Michael equals LT which is completely and utterly false. you can not seamlessly put sentient beings into equations, period. even if you are talking about their powers your wrong on almost every level. for example, lucifer has the infinite divine will of Yahweh himself while LT has no will of his own and can only carry out the will of TOAA be equal? that alone only does not match, they are polar opposites.

next, lucifer himself is as powerful than LT with LT Being literally a shade more powerful while Michael can beat LT and lucifer working together easily.

@van_cere: LT feats surpass Lucifer's; not to mention he is the judge of the multiverse etc.

@Kingant27: just had to say this: saw pro biker and tried to race him. lucky he turned after a few minutes or I would have really thrown up instead of feeling like I am going to.

anyway, like what? lucifer has destroyed an infinite number of realms, universes, and dimensions just by being there. later he actually called it too fragile for him even though there was a, thing, that could bend reality was doing just fine there along with all the dead, forgotten gods demons concepts beings and angels like the ones that died when lucifer rebelled, but this is beside point, I apologize for going off track. this is only one of the lesser of his many feats.

and LT is the judge of the marvel creation? well, lucifer is the co maker of the DC creation and The Lord of his own.

@rijehu: Well said, agreed with everything

@kangconquers: And yet we must remember that he still isn't omnipotent.

Jmarshmallow

Lol at the people who saying team DC stomps

@lol: I can say lucifer solos and you will have nothing to prove me wrong. if you agree with me I can say LT solos and still you will have nothing to prove that lucifer can win. unless I was stupid enough to make a respect thread for him that includes lucifers feats when he was at full power which I was not. wow, now I know why my gut told me to not finish the thread. weird.

Good fight but Marvel team should win.

LT solos only because Marvel doesnt have him job to powerhouses every other comic. DC should treat their abstracts with more respect

Lol at people saying Lucifer or Spectre (aka the cosmic jobber) solo

Aren't nigh-omnipotent battles banned? Or is it just TOAA and Presence?

Can LT match this kind of power?

What you say about Spectre is true most of the time when he is involved in a major cosmic event that always ends with A listers such as Batman, Superman, Green Lantern etc. and a plot device that involves them. But that does not mean that Spectre is always a jobber who would lose to every cosmic threat.

Team DC

have to say i'm leaning towards marvel here

Lucifer is not on the Living Tribunal's level. Didn't Michael himself struggle with Spectre?

@New_World_Order: I wouldn't say "struggled", as Spectre never really had a chance of beating him(while he was intent on combat, and Michael wasn't).

Spectre got his shots in, but the outcome was inevitable.

The only reason Mihael didn't destroy him outright was because he was basically useful in the long run.

Gallery

@xiix Interesting, although still not on par with Tribunal.

this is basically Tribunal vs Lucifer, and Living Tribunal stomps Lucifer. so Marvel wins.

how is Lucifer better than LT? what's the best thing Lucifer did? creating a multiverse? with the help of Michael ? that's nothing special, Celestials created the multiverse, CW Hercules created the multiverse, Entropy and Genis-Vell created the multiverse and before that destroyed the multiverse, also Mikaboshi destoyed the multiverse, and Mikaboshi is only a freaking portion of Oblivion, and Oblivion is nothing to Living Tribunal, all of those characters are nothing to Living Tribunal.

so again, how is Lucifer better than LT?

Quicksilver solos

Oh no now this thread will become a flame war °runs°

LT doesn't solo but team marvel wins

LT doesn't solo but team marvel wins

@lucifer_morningstar1: Thank you! People don't give him enough credit.

@all_mighty_beyonder: Lucifer didn't simply "create" a multiverse. He created his own fully functioning multiverse BEYOND the void which is OUTSIDE of DC continuity and creation as a whole. He had power over both his multiverse (in which he was supreme) and DCU continuity, simultaneously.

In order for LT to be comparable, he would have to have first shaped and be able to manipulate ALL of Marvel continuity (not just the multiverse), leave creation, and then create his own multiverse outside in the void of non creation, while still having complete control over Marvel continuity. LT's function is to judge the multiverses, and his power isn't even relevant beyond those multiverses.

you're only making baseless assumptions. no difference between creating a multiverse in or outside of continuity. let's not forget Lucifer wasn't able to escape DC continuity untill Presence allowed him to.

cosmic cube Beyonder created a universe outside of Marvel continuity, it doesn't make him more powerful than any universe creator unless by other feats of power.

LT has control over many multiverses, and universes that are between multiverses, in other word, he has control over megaverses, that's bigger than DC continuity + Lucy's multiverse.

Why does pretty much everybody overestimate the LT?

Living tribunal wank here is truly strong.........lucifer the one who took the big bang to the face, the very same lucifer who equates to one half of the presences power, the same lucifer who fashioned his own multiverse, free from all of the DC continuity............the same lucifer whos power is gods will, whos power is to control the power of the presence..............lucifer merely stomps, unlike the living tribunal lucifer is truly second to the presence.

@jonny_anonymous: I'm not sure. I like him but people pump him up even when it comes to beings close to him in power. I know Lucifer can't beat everybody, but you would have to be truly omnipotent to take him out. LT's power comes from a place of domain. He is not an aspect of his creator and even his authority can't even be enforced everywhere.

@rijehu:

For one, I made no assumptions nor were my statements baseless since Lucifer did these within his comic. Also, it doesn't matter that the Presence allowed Lucifer to leave creation. He was still able to exist beyond the void by his sheer will alone, and still possessed his power over any creation in existence, even then, which is something I have yet to see LT do because he doesn't even have free will, let alone infinite will. As I stated before, he serves as a function in HIS continuity and it is that function, given to him by TOAA, that grants him his supreme power over HIS "megaverse" as you say.

okey, i still don't see how having free will or not change a thing about how powerful they are. free will or not, what's important is power, and feats, and Lucifer didn't show feats enough to be a match to LT.

DC is now an endless multiverse. Marvel only uses megaverses (two or more multiverses) as a phrase in their continuity so for you to try and low shot DC because they don't adapt a phrase that Marvel does isn't helping your case. An endless multiverse in DC is still ENDLESS, meaning infinite, and that is without Lucifer's multiverse. Throwing around fancy Marvel terms in order to falsely claim that LT's domain is larger than all of DC won't do here buddy. And since you mentioned that what matters is feats of power and not creation, then why would it matter how big LT's domain is anyway?

nop, those are not a fancy names, Marvel didn't create those names just for giggles.

a megaverse is something wider than a multiverse, because as Marvel defined it, it contains a multiverse and several high dimensional universes. and Marvel Omniverse contains several megaverses, Marvel Omniverse is omni, that means contains everything.

DC is only a multiverse.

besides the names that you DC fans refuse to accept. there is other definitive proofs that confirm Marvel is bigger than DC. Marvel contains more than 16 dimensions, while DC only have at best 11 dimensions. and if we consider Beyond Realm part of Marvel omniverse, then, Marvel will have INFINITE dimensions.

to put it simple : Marvel continuity >>> 16 dimensions continuity >>> 11 dimensions continuity >= DC continuity

But I'll do you a favor, let's say that LT's domain was larger than both DCU and Lucifer's multiverse. Here is why he still loses in this battle.

As powerful as people claim he is, has no power over beings outside of his multiverses. Since you want to use Marvel phrases, LT's Megaversal domain <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Marvel Omniverse, meaning there are beings and dimensions outside of his domain that exist out in the Marvel Omniverse that are not subject to his power. LT has had problems with creatures such as Nebulos and even had to get help from Doctor Strange to contain him. Do you know why LT didn't just solo Nebulos or erase him from existence as people seem to think he can do to Lucifer? It is because HE COULDN'T. Nebulos, just like Cyttorak and Zom, is an extra dimensional being, Extra = OUTSIDE of the multiverses, and LT has no judgement or power over beings in the outer Omniverse. The only reason why Doctor Strange was even able to affect Nebulos was because he used the bands of CYTTORAK, another extra dimensional being whose power could affect Nebulos. Mind you, Strange used those same bands on LT when he and Strange encountered one another and LT was shocked even then because of the unfamiliar power they possessed, even inside LT's own multiverse. If LT were to battle any of these extra-demnsional beings outside of his megaversal domain, let alone in their own domains, he would likely lose. And even when he has managed to defeat some of them, he could only contain them or push them away, NEVER could he erase or solo any of them as easily as people imply.

Lucifer isn't all powerful, but he is definitely beyond most nigh omnipotents. For some reason people like to throw up Lucifer's minor troubles but will always overlook LT's main limitation. If the battles take place anywhere other than his multiverses, anyone even remotely close to LT in power or even other nigh omnipotents would give him Hell because he is only the Judge of one domain, while it may be composed of many multiverses and may even be considered a Megaverse, it is still one domain in the Marvel Omniverse. He holds no power or judgment over beings in the outer realms of Marvel Omniverse and certainly not beings from entirely different continuities. Even Marvel stated that LT is "served by lesser beings called the Magistratti, who assist in judging matters where the Living Tribunal can not intervene." His judgment is his power and vice versa, but it is NOT enforced beyond his jurisdiction. Lucifer has shown that he doesn't even remotely have a limit to his jurisdiction. The Spectre would be enough for LT in a neutral Universe so Lucifer would not even be needed.

Lucifer's embodiment of Infinite Will is > LT's lack of free will. LT must operate within HIS megaversal zone while Lucifer can and has left his continuity all together and created another continuity while still holding power over both. I said that twice because I am showing that he can impose his power ANYWHERE because that is what he is, Infinite Manipulation of creations. He is not limited like LT is. Him being able to create from nothing is not even a factor since he can just manipulate all there is in this battle including the powers of Team 2. LT is nigh-omnipotent and omniscient only over his domain. He possesses no infinite aspect as Lucifer does and he can't even impose his power over the DC team top tiers whereas Lucifer can wreck anyone on Team 2 via his unlimited warping, and that's not even using his cunning and intellect.

okey, i mostly agree with what you said here, but what does that change exactly? this is fight as shown in OP is pure battle of power, which of the 2 teams is the most powerful, and Lucifer didn't show power to rival LT, regardless if LT is in or outside of his continuity.

you're confused between power domaine and power level. those are 2 different things, and has no relation not the slightest. Lucifer's power domaine is larger than LT, but he is still weaker than LT when it comes to power level. it's that simple. trying to get around the fact that LT is more powerful than Lucifer by bringing the domaine limitation isn't changing a thing. LT can't exist outside of Marvel continuity in the fisrt place. so putting LT vs Lucifer, means they are fighting at full power both. and at full power Lucifer still pales to LT

@all_mighty_beyonder: first, try not to resort to name calling when your challenging or contradicting someone otherwise people might think your flaming and you do not want people to think that do you? second, try to actually post some evidence instead of self made facts because your post only says LT > lucifer instead of the reason.

and some of your facts are wrong because you look at everything, even definitions for crucial words, from the marvel perspective. you keep saying "MARVELs definition", "MARVEL defined it", but then you turn around and say DC is only a multiverse and did not include a single "MARVEL definition" because you know your wrong. as to DC, a multiverse IS the biggest amount, they do not use words that do not exist and can not be found in dictionaries, or in dictionaries for fictional worlds.

to DC, multiple infinite parallel universes is still called a multiverse. the mansions of silence, the place which houses infinite universes, dimensions, and even rejected creations, is inside DC, and they still call it the DC multiverse.

@van_cere:

first of all, i didn't use any disrespectful language or name calling, "DC fans" is a normal expression, aren't you a "DC fan" ? aren't most people here comic fans? if it's a offensive expression in your vocabulary then i offer my apologies.

second, you're in bad place to judge people's behavior seeing how rude your own behavior is in different threads.

third, instead of making cornered responses about one sentence i said (LT>Lucifer), if you have checked the thread you'll find out that i already provided arguments with instances from comics.

fourth, the only wrong here is you, when i said "Marvel defined it" i was refering to this

how do you feel now accusing people of liers when you're the only one wrong? shameful isn't it?

fifth, i don't know about megaverse, but omniverse is a scientific word, already used widely in the most famous theories of physics. Also i provied clear proofs of why Marvel bigger than DC, you keep using personal opinions and baseless assumptions that are subject to possible bias. while i provided canon proofs, that shows Marvel has realms bigger than multiverses, and number of spatial dimensions bigger than anything mentioned in DC.

@sithlantern93: a little help here?

So this basically became a LM vs LT thread

@homer_x: it basically is. this is like martian manhunter crime buster green arrow vs Thor Namor daredevil.

thank you very much. you just proved yourself unworthy of debate, have rude behavior and impolite conduct. thank you for proving what i was saying is true in front of everybody, including mods @vance_astro , this is your behavior in a lot of threads, people tried to reason you to advise you to behave, but you are what you are. thank you. FLAGGED. and Enjoy your close futur ban.

and for the sake of enlightenment of viners worthy of debate (not you if you're asking) i shall respond to your moot points a last time and leave you in your mad responses.

First :

arguments, i have provided IN THIS THREAD, so i shall quote it, and our viner friend @rijehu provided a logical counter arguments to mine, it's true we doesn't agree, and each is trying to prove his point but we are debating respectfully, and each one of us respect the opnion of the other, unlike you mr @van_cere

Second :

the scans being canon sources, explaining clearly what's a megaverse and omniverse, makes them legitimate sources. i don't know what's wrong with you mad all of sudden, yelling gibberish nonsens. what a behavior is this? sigh... whatever,

Third :

omniverse is a term used by physicists in M-Theory wich is a developped theory of String Theory conjectured by Edward Witten.

Fourth :

canon proofs that gives an idea how big Marvel continuity is, are in front of you, you could have asked nicely for others. but you're basically in denial so it doesn't matter how much canon evidence i bring you.

i'm sure there other scans that prove Marvel is bigger than 16 dimensions continuity but this is enough.

you're not worth a debate, untill you learn to behave.

@all_mighty_beyonder: o now you have changed tactics; first you say "fourth, the only wrong here is you, when i said "Marvel defined it" i was refering to this" then it was "canon proofs that gives an idea how big Marvel continuity is" just, wow.

second, some of lucifers best feats include:

created the DC multiverse (DC definition of multiverse) along with Michael.

created his own multiverse that mirrors the original in size on his own.

tanked a creation erasing blast without a hair out of place.

destroyed the mansions of silence with his presence.

one shotted the logos (the voice of god), not the logoz (the connection S has to god).

has LT ever done anything above that level? no.

the scans you provided are clearly what I said they were, marvels version of the definitions. I never said they were non canon so stop putting words in my mouth.

and if you can not handle a simple advise, which is to not put people in boxes and accuse others, then you are not ready to debate. your the one who accused DC fans of being stubborn, your the one accusing me of calling you a liar, your the one who put that guy you challenged in a box, your also the one who accuse me of yelling gibberish "nonsens" whatever that means. all I did was call your claims useless which they are if they are not backed up by proof, and boast.

unless you can take a deep breath, stop being offensive and accusing, and try to debate with proof instead of with claims and then getting fired up when people rightly call your own claims useless, which all claims are without backing, your not ready to debate or really debating, your just arguing.

okay, if you want to keep calling me names or accusing me, you can just do it. from now on I will not reply to insults and only use logic to deal with those kinds of people and I am willing to forget everything you have called me. if your not going to change your attitude then I am.

@all_mighty_beyonder: now I know why you are in such a hurry to wrap this up.

I checked the M theory, and looked up the similar theories like the string theory and then checked the founders Wikipedia page, and there was nothing, NOTHING about omniverses. I also took the time to search Wikipedia for the word omniverse, and nothing scientific was there. if anyone wants to check, here it is:

For search options, see Help:Searching.

Omniverse

Omniverse may refer to: The Multiverse The Universe Ben 10: Omniverse a 1970s-era fanzine produced by Mark Gruenwald -

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Ben 10: Omniverse

Ben 10: Omniverse is an American animated television series currently airing on Cartoon Network , in the United States. The series is the ...

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Multiverse (Marvel Comics) (section Omniverse)

Omniverse: Originally according to The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2004, "the omniverse is the collection of every single ...

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Multiverse

Many-worlds interpretation date July 2012 The multiverse (or meta-universe) is the hypothetical set of infinite or finite possible universe ...

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Ben 10: Omniverse (video game)

Ben 10: Omniverse is a video game based on the animated television series of the same name . The game was published by D3 Publisher on ...

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Ben 10: Omniverse 2

Ben 10: Omniverse 2 is a video game based on the animated television series of the same name and is the sequel to Ben 10: Omniverse . ...

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List of Ben 10: Omniverse episodes

The following is a list of episodes of the American animated television series Ben 10: Omniverse . Only forty episodes were ordered at ...

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Ben 10 (section Omniverse)

Omniverse: Ben 10: Omniverse. After Ultimate Alien, Ben gets a new Omnitrix along with a new set of aliens. While Gwen and Kevin go off to ...

46 KB (6,328 words) - 20:24, 15 July 2014

List of Ben 10 aliens (section Aliens Introduced in Ben 10: Omniverse)

16-year-old Heatblast made his Omniverse debut in "A Jolt From the Past" to chase Corvo, while 11-year-old Heatblast made his Omniverse ...

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List of Ben 10 villains (section Introduced in Omniverse)

the villains who appear in the Ben 10 universe ranging from Ben 10 , Ben 10: Alien Force , Ben 10: Ultimate Alien , and Ben 10: Omniverse . ...

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List of Ben 10 characters

characters in the universe of the Ben 10 franchise ranging from Ben 10 , Ben 10: Alien Force , Ben 10: Ultimate Alien , and Ben 10: Omniverse . ...

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The Secret Saturdays

2011 The Saturdays appear in Ben 10: Omniverse episode "T.G.I.S." teaming up with Ben Tennyson and Rook Blonko in stopping the villain Dr. ...

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Ben 10 (TV series)

A new series called Ben 10: Omniverse premiered in September 2012. Premise: The series centers around Ben Tennyson (Tara Strong ), a ten- ...

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Matt Wayne

Wayne is probably best known for his work on the animated series Justice League Unlimited , Ben 10: Omniverse and The Super Hero Squad ...

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Ben 10: Ultimate Alien

See also: Ben 10: Omniverse Ben 10: Protector of Earth List of Ben 10: Ultimate Alien episodes References : External links : http://www. ...

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Paul Eiding

Diablo , Judicator Aldaris in StarCraft , and Max Tennyson in Ben 10 , Ben 10: Alien Force , and Ben 10: Ultimate Alien and Ben 10 Omniverse . ...

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Saturnyne

She is the Omniversal Majestrix of Otherworld , and a servant of Roma , charged with the safety of the Omniverse . Her first appearance ...

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Ashley Johnson

, and its two successors Ben 10: Ultimate Alien and Ben 10: Omniverse and Terra in Teen Titans and its sequel series, Teen Titans Go! . ...

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Dan Riba

He has also directed several Ben 10: Alien Force , Ben 10: Ultimate Alien and Ben 10: Omniverse episodes. External links : id 0722713 | name ...

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Roma (comics)

Roma is the Omniversal Guardian, charged with the safety of the Omniverse . She is assisted in her task by Saturnyne , the Omniversal ...

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When the hell did odin become abstract?

up to lucy and LT if you ask me.

Why is everyone ignoring @Rijehu 's awesome, heavily thought post totally disproving LT soloing...

@retconcrisis: when most people look at a post that long I do not think they will read all of it. and the need to express personal opinion is too great so....