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#51 Posted by Shawnbaby (10641 posts) - - Show Bio

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Well...I guess The Sentry really does have the power of 1000 Exploding Suns then. Which i guess makes him a Galaxy Buster. And I suppose that means Iron Man really is Invincible. And Spider-Man really can spin a web...Any Size.

#52 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaywray:

Well, I own and read the manga volumes and I don't remember that scan at all.

Which one are you talking about? 2/3 I've seen myself in person, the only one I haven't is the first one.

Also regardless of all that, I don't think I can be bothered with this, there are a few like you on the internet who question every single little thing of dbz that if it wasn't shown/stated/word of god/Toriyama go to your house and tell you.

You wouldn't be happy.

I'm not going to bother from here, it's boring and old.

#53 Posted by Theorder14 (1446 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Well...I guess The Sentry really does have the power of 1000 Exploding Suns then. Which i guess makes him a Galaxy Buster. And I suppose that means Iron Man really is Invincible. And Spider-Man really can spin a web...Any Size.

lol, u do realise that there's multiple authors in marvel while dbz only have one which makes it much easier.All statements r not hyperbole as long as it doesn't contradict

#54 Posted by SlimJ87D (9677 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby said:

@nickzambuto said:

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Well...I guess The Sentry really does have the power of 1000 Exploding Suns then. Which i guess makes him a Galaxy Buster. And I suppose that means Iron Man really is Invincible. And Spider-Man really can spin a web...Any Size.

lol, u do realise that there's multiple authors in marvel while dbz only have one which makes it much easier.All statements r not hyperbole as long as it doesn't contradict

Couldn't have said it better myself.

#55 Posted by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

Bills solos DC

I hope this is a joke. Or are you trolling?

#56 Posted by jaywray (631 posts) - - Show Bio

@mirrorwave4 said:

Bills solos DC

I hope this is a joke. Or are you trolling?

I think he's just very very very wrong lol

#57 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby said:

@nickzambuto said:

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Well...I guess The Sentry really does have the power of 1000 Exploding Suns then. Which i guess makes him a Galaxy Buster. And I suppose that means Iron Man really is Invincible. And Spider-Man really can spin a web...Any Size.

lol, u do realise that there's multiple authors in marvel while dbz only have one which makes it much easier.All statements r not hyperbole as long as it doesn't contradict

Stan Lee when he started off alone has bunch of hyperbole in his works. And even with multiple writers, each writers have distinguishable ways of writing that character anyway. Anyone who have graduated from high school should know that hyperbole is one of the most overused literary device in fictional work. It doesn't matter anyway as Cell have never show that he can bust a solar system, if they mean bust a solar system by engulfing it in energy blast, it's still million of times harder to achieve than planet busting.

#58 Posted by Freefa11 (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

First of all, the author of the manga himself did away with explicit power levels after the Frieza saga because he found them to cumbersome.

Do you have a source for this? See, I've seen statements like this crop up a lot lately, and the problem is they are extremely inconsistent, with people variously claiming Toriyama stated PLs were "cumbersome," to "useless," to "meaningless," which don't all necessarily end up meaning the same thing. So if you're going to make part of your argument depend on what he actually said, it should be important to make sure we all know what he actually said, and not what you just remember someone saying they heard someone else say he said.

So most of these calculations that goes into most DBZ debates, specifically the ones using calculations to predict damage output are bull.

That doesn't follow from what you said above. "Cumbersome" doesn't mean BS, it just means he didn't want to deal with the numbers anymore. That doesn't mean they are actually useless and people can't extrapolate on their own, just that he didn't feel like doing it.

In my opinion, the author wanted strength to be based on feats, not numbers, which is how it should be.

I think that depends a lot on how you define "feats." A lot of people on the vine conveniently view feats involving other characters as invalid when it comes to DBZ. Most of determining DBZ power comes from it being clearly shown which characters can defeat which other characters and how easily.

Concerning power levels, they ARE NOT LINEAR. I had to put that in caps and bold it because this seems to be the one thing no one understands. Take the farmer from DBZ and Roshi when he destroyed the moon. The farmer had a PL of 5 and Roshi about 139. If Power levels were linear, that farmer should be capable of easily destroying mountains and towns. But he isn't because power levels ARE NOT LINEAR.

If you want to get real pedantic about these things, we don't actually know what the Farmer was capable of, we just know that he's weaker than Raditz. But aside from that, the thing I always find funny about this argument is that it basically reads as "Power Levels aren't linear, therefore they could be almost anything and we just have no idea so we shouldn't use them at all."

The reason it is funny is because the difference between "Joe average Farmer" and Roshi would actually imply PLs to have a highly exponential growth, meaning a factor of just a few between two different characters would amount to insanely higher energy output. So really, when people treat PLs as linear, that is the lowest growth rate we have evidence for. Using the low-end power levels, it could be substantially higher than linear. What no one has actually ever done, or at least not that I've seen, is show clear evidence that PLs ever scale at less than a linear curve.

All that aside though, for the most part, PLs actually do seem to scale linearly, with the Kaio-Ken attack and SS1 transformation being pretty good indicators. Yes, there is an extreme difference when dealing with very low power levels, but there are two pretty simple explanations. One is that PLs do follow a highly exponential curve at very low numbers but then level off. The other is that Scouters or the entire system are just not calibrated to properly account for levels below a couple hundred. Really, the PL system doesn't come into effect until most of the relevant characters are already a bit above 300.

BTW, I'm pretty sure Roshi was only reading at 139 when he was calm. He destroyed the moon when he buffed up. I imagine it raised his PL much like any transformation would (not to mention we also know Goku's rating goes way up when he charges a kamehameha).

Also, with the Roshi and Piccolo moon busting you can take away 1 of 3 things. One, the moon in DB is a p*ssy. Two, its a BS, high-end feat. Or three, the moon in DB is a p*ssy.

The third thing you can take away is that it showed them blowing up the moon, so it means they can blow up the moon, end of story. Roshi did it, and later on an even more powerful character did it more easily, which gives us confirmation. That you do not even seem to acknowledge the possibility this could be a legitimate feat indicates you are being heavily biased.

I mean, let's see here: earlier, you said "the author wanted strength to be based on feats, not numbers, which is how it should be." But when actually presented with a feat, performed by two different characters at different times, you dismiss it out of hand. So you are conveniently denying both DBZ power levels and DBZ feats.

And you're wondering why someone else felt you were anti-DBZ?

We have the Saiyan Saga. Vegeta claims he will destroy the planet out of rage. Vegeta is now capable of busting planets? No, its hyperbole!

Based on what? Roshi and Piccolo were much, much weaker than Vegeta. You already pointed out the difference between a PL of 5 and a PL 139 is gargantuan, so why wouldn't the jump from a PL of ~300 to about 18,000 take you from moon busting to planet busting?

If you include the anime, then Vegeta is confirmed on-screen as a casual planet-buster.

We have the Cell saga. Cell claims he is going to destroy the solar system/galaxy with a single attack.

Solar system. Solar systems and galaxies aren't even remotely the same things either, so I don't know why you put them like that. Cell didn't state it like that, he just said solar system.

What we do know is that Frieza was capable of destroying a planet with a PL of 120,000,000 in the namek saga although I wouldnt say it was casual. Arguments will be made that he destroyed planet vegeta in his base form but this is debatable.

It's not debateable at all, that's what happened. It's been shown and stated plenty of times. It looks like someone provided an early scan already. Vegeta had 10x the gravity of earth, and Freeza destroyed it in his base form very easily.

Furthermore, Raditz and Vegeta both say that asteroids were the cause of the 'planets' destruction. So, for the sake of clean debates, base form frieza is not a planet buster but final form is.

The asteroid explanation was a lie Freeza told Vegeta. This was made explicitly clear by Dodoria before Vegeta killed him. This is actually the first place we even learn that Freeza was the one who destroyed the planet. I'm kind of surprised anyone could even remember the asteroid explanation and forget that it was later revealed to just be a lie.

As said in the previous paragraphs, power levels ARE NOT LINEAR and there is a 'plateau' in destructive capabilities. The evidence of this 'plateau' stems from either choice you picked for moon busting. If Roshi really did have the power to destroy the moon, then fine. But you can't tell me he ever had the power to destroy the earth.

No one ever claimed Roshi could destroy the earth. People claim that characters much, much stronger than Roshi, who can already destroy the moon, would be capable of destroying the earth. It's actually a pretty straightforward line of thought.

So, Cell, who is vastly more powerful than Frieza, who is the first to actually 'display' planet busting, for all intents and purposes is still only in the power level busting range albeit much more casually. The only true casual planet busting we see in DBZ is from Kid Buu.

Freeza is a casual planet buster in his base form. Any character who could curbstomp 1st form Freeza, which includes even Piccolo and base Vegeta and Goku by the end of the Freeza saga, are also casual planet busters, but even moreso. That's even before factoring in the 50x power up for just SS1. Then you've got the two levels of buff Super Saiyans and Mastered Super Saiyan, followed by full blown Super Saiayn 2, another 2x multiplier, which is about where Super Perfect Cell was when he made his statement.

Now, there is no doubt that actually destroying a whole solar system requires immensely more power than destroying a planet (for reference, a typical supernova emits something like 10^44 joules of energy, whereas destroying the earth would only require around 10^32, so 12 orders of magnitude, or a factor of 1 trillion between them, although a supernova could very well exceed the minimum for solar system busting). However, the difference between 1st form Freeza and SP Cell is also immense; Freeza may as well be a germ to him at that point. Figuring the exact difference between the two would take some extrapolation and guesswork, but it is certainly gigantic. And if Toriyama actually confirmed he could destroy the solar system, that's about the end of the discussion. It would be like finding a piece of paper by J.R.R. Tolkien stating that Sauron could destroy the moon or something; we're not talking about corporate entities the way western comics characters are, we're talking about works where the authors are actually the authority on the matter.

Anyway, sorry, but you're going too far out of your way to try and dismiss clear, on-panel showings as irrelevant for this to hold up well. Even low level DBZ characters are moon busters, and they go up from there. I don't know about any claims of galaxy busting though, other than the Broly movie (non-canon) and maybe the anime version of Kid Buu.

#59 Posted by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Given Toriyama's history with not even remembering half the crap in DBZ, he actually doesn't. But his acknowledgement that Cell can blow up a solar system is enough because what he says goes when in regards to the Manga feats. It's like if I made a story and had my main character say he can catch bullets, but never actually does so in the story. Then someone who read the story asks me if he can, I say "Well yes, he can, he wasn't just bragging," -- then tells me "nope, you're wrong, no feats so he can't." People need to be a little more flexible than feats or nothing.

That's true and very valid. But the thing I never understood is; if Cell had enough Ki in his Kamehameha to destroy a solar system, why and how did his attack get thwarted by Gohan's?

#60 Edited by Dredeuced (5507 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242 said:

@dredeuced said:

@nickzambuto said:

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Given Toriyama's history with not even remembering half the crap in DBZ, he actually doesn't. But his acknowledgement that Cell can blow up a solar system is enough because what he says goes when in regards to the Manga feats. It's like if I made a story and had my main character say he can catch bullets, but never actually does so in the story. Then someone who read the story asks me if he can, I say "Well yes, he can, he wasn't just bragging," -- then tells me "nope, you're wrong, no feats so he can't." People need to be a little more flexible than feats or nothing.

That's true and very valid. But the thing I never understood is; if Cell had enough Ki in his Kamehameha to destroy a solar system, why and how did his attack get thwarted by Gohan's?

Gohan was more powerful, I suppose? It's not much of an amped obstacle if the hero doesn't overcome it.

#61 Posted by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242 said:

@dredeuced said:

@nickzambuto said:

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Given Toriyama's history with not even remembering half the crap in DBZ, he actually doesn't. But his acknowledgement that Cell can blow up a solar system is enough because what he says goes when in regards to the Manga feats. It's like if I made a story and had my main character say he can catch bullets, but never actually does so in the story. Then someone who read the story asks me if he can, I say "Well yes, he can, he wasn't just bragging," -- then tells me "nope, you're wrong, no feats so he can't." People need to be a little more flexible than feats or nothing.

That's true and very valid. But the thing I never understood is; if Cell had enough Ki in his Kamehameha to destroy a solar system, why and how did his attack get thwarted by Gohan's?

Gohan was more powerful, I suppose? It's not much of an amped obstacle if the hero doesn't overcome it.

You do see the nonsense in that, right? There is no way possible Gohan should've been able to overcome that. Even if he had his dad as some form of help. They were supposed to be dead.

#62 Posted by Dredeuced (5507 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: I don't understand, why couldn't Gohan be more powerful than Cell? Is there some limitation to him I'm not aware of?

#63 Posted by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: I don't understand, why couldn't Gohan be more powerful than Cell? Is there some limitation to him I'm not aware of?

I thought being able to destroy a solar system with a blast was a really and truly impressive feat. So, I guess Gohan can destroy a solar system too, since he beat Cell...

#64 Posted by Dredeuced (5507 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@batman242: I don't understand, why couldn't Gohan be more powerful than Cell? Is there some limitation to him I'm not aware of?

I thought being able to destroy a solar system with a blast was a really and truly impressive feat. So, I guess Gohan can destroy a solar system too, since he beat Cell...

Yeah, probably, depending on how you scale Vegeta's interference with the injury to his other arm.

#65 Posted by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242 said:

@dredeuced said:

@batman242: I don't understand, why couldn't Gohan be more powerful than Cell? Is there some limitation to him I'm not aware of?

I thought being able to destroy a solar system with a blast was a really and truly impressive feat. So, I guess Gohan can destroy a solar system too, since he beat Cell...

Yeah, probably, depending on how you scale Vegeta's interference with the injury to his other arm.

He would've died if Vegeta hadn't helped. Or if the other Z-Fighters weren't their being a nuisance. I still don't see why a blast so powerful that it can destroy a solar system should in anyway be stopped by a blast less powerful.... a lot less powerful.

#66 Posted by Dredeuced (5507 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@batman242 said:

@dredeuced said:

@batman242: I don't understand, why couldn't Gohan be more powerful than Cell? Is there some limitation to him I'm not aware of?

I thought being able to destroy a solar system with a blast was a really and truly impressive feat. So, I guess Gohan can destroy a solar system too, since he beat Cell...

Yeah, probably, depending on how you scale Vegeta's interference with the injury to his other arm.

He would've died if Vegeta hadn't helped. Or if the other Z-Fighters weren't their being a nuisance. I still don't see why a blast so powerful that it can destroy a solar system should in anyway be stopped by a blast less powerful.... a lot less powerful.

I don't get why you think Gohan has to necessarily be less powerful. He was viciously stomping Cell before the plot induced upgrade and plot induced injury to Gohan.

#67 Posted by Shawnbaby (10641 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@theorder14 said:

@shawnbaby said:

@nickzambuto said:

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Well...I guess The Sentry really does have the power of 1000 Exploding Suns then. Which i guess makes him a Galaxy Buster. And I suppose that means Iron Man really is Invincible. And Spider-Man really can spin a web...Any Size.

lol, u do realise that there's multiple authors in marvel while dbz only have one which makes it much easier.All statements r not hyperbole as long as it doesn't contradict

Couldn't have said it better myself.

But the original creator of the Sentry stated he had the "Power of 1000 Exploding Suns". So, according to you guys, it must be have been true when he created the character.

Do you also believe it whenever someone tells you that they are "hungry enough to eat a horse"? I mean...the hungry person knows how hungry he is better than Random Internet People right?

#68 Edited by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Wouldn't Gohan stomping Cell be PIS? I can't remember the fight exactly, but I know Cell was destroying everyone.

Also, if one person's PL is higher than the other's, doesn't that mean they will beat them in a beam clash? Hasn't it always been that way in DBZ? Cell's blast was capable of (you know what) and Gohan was weakened and using one arm. Cell's blast should've just went straight through Gohan's with ease on an epic scale.

#69 Posted by Theorder14 (1446 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Wouldn't Gohan stomping Cell be PIS? I can't remember the fight exactly, but I know Cell was destroying everyone.

Also, if one person's PL is higher than the other's, doesn't that mean they will beat them in a beam clash? Hasn't it always been that way in DBZ? Cell's blast was capable of (you know what) and Gohan was weakened and using one arm. Cell's blast should've just went straight through Gohan's with ease on an epic scale.

Gohan was the first who transformed to ssj2. He stomped cell in that form easily. After that Cell's zenkai activated and made him ssj2 level too. We don't know how the battle would go if it weren't for vegeta interfering and Gohan had to protect him and take a hit.

#70 Posted by Theorder14 (1446 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@theorder14 said:

@shawnbaby said:

@nickzambuto said:

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Well...I guess The Sentry really does have the power of 1000 Exploding Suns then. Which i guess makes him a Galaxy Buster. And I suppose that means Iron Man really is Invincible. And Spider-Man really can spin a web...Any Size.

lol, u do realise that there's multiple authors in marvel while dbz only have one which makes it much easier.All statements r not hyperbole as long as it doesn't contradict

Couldn't have said it better myself.

But the original creator of the Sentry stated he had the "Power of 1000 Exploding Suns". So, according to you guys, it must be have been true when he created the character.

Do you also believe it whenever someone tells you that they are "hungry enough to eat a horse"? I mean...the hungry person knows how hungry he is better than Random Internet People right?

As long as it didn't contradict, right?

Anyway, ur free to believe whatever u want but i highly doubt that it's just hypebole. Cell stated he could bust a solar system and the original author have stated he could too. Then i don't see why he couldn't as long as there aren't any contradictions. At least u can agreed that Cell can bust a planet right? Why would Cell say that he have enough ki not only to destroy the planet but the whole solar system. so he told the truth he could bust a planet and lied that he can bust a solar system?

#71 Edited by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio
@buttersdaman000 said:

@thc:

What?

- Because Goten lacked training and experience with ki blasts they would be much weaker than Trunks'

- Goten's Kamehameha was weaker than Roshi's in skill. But obviously not power

So, you're pretty much saying you can pick and choose how much power is lost due to lack of training? For one, Goten was already weaker than Trunks in that tournament. Two, you pretty much contradicted your stance in that second line. Goku's PL doesnt matter but Gotens does? That doesnt make sense. And how can you be weaker in skill?

"You're pretty much saying you can pick and choose how much power is lost due to training?"

Yes. Every ki blast is an individual technique that must be mastered. Like a martial art. Like a language. Skills from one ki technique may and usually carry over to others, such as Tae Kwon Do skills and Karate, English and French, or Krillin, Vegeta and Frieza's similar yet different Destructo Disc variations. Skill is indeed a factor in the efficiency of the technique. Goku is irrefutably more skilled with the Kamehameha than anyone else.

"Goten was already weaker than Trunks. How can you be weaker in skill?"

As you can see Goten and Trunks proved physically equal in skill and strength, even in flight as Gohan had trained Goten to fly along with Videl.

Skip to 6:40 for Trunks' first beam fired. Obviously Trunks has more experience ("Gohan taught me a little of that myself") and skill with ki blasts than Goten, despite being physically his equal.

And Goten ultimately loses precisely because Trunks is more strategic because he is more experienced with ki blasts than him.

"Goku's PL doesn't matter but Goten's does?"

The emphasis of Goku's first Kamehameha is that he learned it in seconds, not that it was weaker than Roshi's.

"It took me fifty years to learn that technique, and this boy learns it in seconds"

The canon remake Path to Power shows Goku's Kamehameha more powerful at first but really the point is just that it's weaker than Roshi's for now.

Also, it's given that Bulma's car is Capsule Corp. like the rest of her stuff, and Dr. Brief builds spaceships that withstand Vegeta's blasts. Sooo..

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's entertain the thought that Power Levels don't scale linearly...

Jump back to Earth after Namek and Yamcha has just finished training with King Kai along with Piccolo and Tien, whereupon they, absent Piccolo, stomped the Ginyu Force.

On Namek, Piccolo fused with Nail making him far superior to Vegeta, and after the Elder's blessing Gohan is almost as powerful as Vegeta.

Now Episode 124, "Z Warriors Prepare." If Power Levels don't scale linearly, do they exponentially grow or decay? If they grow, then that's just ridiculous and makes no sense. If they decay, then Yamcha shouldn't be crushed by Vegeta's training pre-Super Saiyan:

Nope.

@shawnbaby said:
@nickzambuto said:

Hyperbole isn't an argument. I think the writer of the book knew what he was talking about better than random internet people.

Well...I guess The Sentry really does have the power of 1000 Exploding Suns then. Which i guess makes him a Galaxy Buster. And I suppose that means Iron Man really is Invincible. And Spider-Man really can spin a web...Any Size.

DBZ anime has an announcer that makes obviously hyperbolic assessments like that all the time as well. That doesn't mean anyone quotes him as a valid source of opinion.

@uberhikari said:

First, I'm not disregarding context. There is literally NO context for Cell being able to destroy a solar system. Literally 1 arc ago they were barely busting planets, now all of a sudden they can bust solar systems? If that's true then the Super Saiyan multipliers don't even make sense anymore. SSJ 2 is 2x more powerful than an SSJ 1, but an SSJ 1 can bust planets while an SSJ 2 can bust solar systems? I mean, I can make an argument that going by context Cell being a solar system buster is PIS.

Second, nobody in the DBZ manga ever busted (or even attempted to bust) a solar system so the on panel showings can't disprove the databooks. It was literally a feat never attempted. Basically what you're saying is that we should accept what databooks say irrespective of how ridiculous it is as long as on-panel showings never contradict it? Again, I point to Haku being light speed and rest my case; strictly speaking on panel showings never contradicted that either, it just seems extremely ridiculous given the feats of characters later in the series.

*Also, the Androids didn't have "infinite energy generators." You make it seem like the had an infinite amount of energy, which they obviously didn't.

"There is literally NO context for Cell being able to destroy a solar system. Literally 1 arc ago they were busting planets"

Frieza Saga: Episode 75 to Episode 107. Frieza is shown destroying Planet Vegeta at 1% power in Episode 86.

Imperfect and Perfect Cell Sagas: Episode 140 to Episode 165

Cell Games Saga: Episode 166 to Episode 194

Also in Episode 86, "The End of Vegeta," is a lot of important context. There are also 2 feats for Goku: deflecting Frieza's pink-blitz-beam that the other Z-Fighters couldn't even see, and flying across Namek in seconds:

SSJ 2 is 2x more powerful than an SSJ 1

Yo what? First, SSJ2 is not twice as powerful as a SSJ1. Second, trying to scale Power Levels anywhere after Frieza is ridiculous, but I'll bite:

When Gohan first transformed into SSJ2 against Perfect Cell, he became about a hundred times more powerful in every way than when he was SSJ1 a few minutes before.

In comparison, Super Saiyan Goku on Namek would be weaker in every way to Mecha Frieza, who was speedblitz'd and stomped by Future Trunks. Future Trunks would stand no chance against an Ascended Super Saiyan in every way, which Perfect Cell stomped with Cell Juniors who were a fraction of his power.

And this is what SSJ2 Gohan did to Perfect Cell:

Frieza is not so easily destroyed as a planet.

Frieza gets shattered by a Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan then gets crushed by an Android. Android in turn gets crushed by Ascended Super Saiyan. Ascended Super Saiyan then gets crushed by Perfect Cell.

Gohan punches Perfect Cell - who, remember, has Frieza's DNA - twice and he's down for the count.

#72 Posted by Dredeuced (5507 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: This is a fallacy. If the ONLY writer says that's what his character is capable of then it's true. Sentry has been written by well over a dozen people and it has been outright stated that the "power of a thousand exploding suns" was hyperbole before. You bring this up in pretty much every topic related to this and it has to be repeated over and over. I'm sure you've read the thread and saw my analogy, elsewise you're just repeating yourself to get a rise out of people.

#74 Edited by Shawnbaby (10641 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: This is a fallacy. If the ONLY writer says that's what his character is capable of then it's true. Sentry has been written by well over a dozen people and it has been outright stated that the "power of a thousand exploding suns" was hyperbole before. You bring this up in pretty much every topic related to this and it has to be repeated over and over. I'm sure you've read the thread and saw my analogy, elsewise you're just repeating yourself to get a rise out of people.

I bring it up because you people keep on trying to push this theory that every single statement made by the author of Manga is 100% true....even when the character involved doesn't have the feats to back up that claim. Cell says he has the power to destroy a Solar System...how does he even know that? Has he ever destroyed a Solar System? No. He's talking in hyperbole. People do it all the time. I just did it right there... Did you notice? "People do it all the time" is hyperbole...because they don't actually do it all of the time. If I wanted to be 100% accurate I would have said "People do that sometimes".

When I say "Hungry enough to eat a horse" I mean I'm hungry...but there's no way I could eat an entire horse. Maybe I could eat a small dog....but that doesn't convey the message I'm trying to get across. I'm trying to impress upon people that I am desperately hungry.

The idea that just because a story is written only by a single writer means there's no hyperbole in those stories is where the real fallacy is. Pick up any novel and you can see dozens of examples of hyperbole. It's a literary device authors use for dramatic emphasis. It doesn't matter if a story has 1 writer or 100...hyperbole is hyperbole.

#75 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

Some of my favorite hyperbole, and like I said, fiction writers overused hyperbole as a literary device in writing.

#76 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

This post of yours in which you attempt to expose the inconsistencies about DBZ is very inaccurate.

Frieza did blow up Planet Vegeta in his first form and it is even described within the above scan as it showed a flashback scene of Frieza being in his first form when Planet Vegeta`s demise occurred even as shown with the anime which is also showcasing the same exact event that the manga evidently explains just furthers this point. Also Bardock is a canon character so that furthers my point as well and these things you clearly overlooked within the depths of your analysis.

Cell is definitely a solar system buster it was confirmed by a Akira within the official handbooks and here are the reasons that further support it.

1. It was not contradicted nor was it proven otherwise so it can`t be dismissed as being hyperbole

2. Akira Toriyama officially wrote the handbooks and guides in which he even elaborated on the idea in regards to the first initial ideas of DBZ in regards to the early Super Saiyan Forms and etc.

3. Just because he wasn`t shown to do it doesn`t mean he is incapable, Frieza in his base form destroyed Planet Vegeta which was 10x earth`s size and he did this with a PL of 530,000 and he used less than 1% of his power, Perfect Cell>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Final Form Frieza and as showcased within Daizenshuu 7, kiri or kili is also used as a measurement to scale or gauge levels of power, Babadi measured Goku`s power level when he was fighting Yakon and it was at 3,000. This was Goku in SSJ1 form and it was confirmed within the Daizenshuu that an individual with a kili level of 200-300 could destroy 1 or 2 planets this could mean two things. With that PL that somebody could destroy a planet 1-2 planets at once or 1-2 planets which have greater density, and mass over the earth, I believe most likely it would be explanation two since it clearly said 1 or 2 planets not simply 1 planet or 1-2 planets also this was Goku in SSJ1 form. So it would be very logical for Cell in regards to being able to blow up a solar system and the method in which it would be accomplished is a factor to consider as well he can destroy the Solar System through the destruction of the sun or an concentrated attack encompassing the area in which all the planets would be aligned in a specific order either way he would be able to destroy the Solar System.

Translated: http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/guidebooks/07-worldview.php#part6

キリ

Kili

An energy unit used by Bobbidi. When Bobbidi measured Gokuu's energy during his fight with Yakon, this unit was used.[Par.] Gokuu's energy level is over 3,000 kili. At approximately 200-300 kili, one can destroy 1 or 2 planets.

Also Akira Toriyama confirmed it within the manga itself and notice how Cell said i`ve gathered enough ki not only to destroy the planet but the whole solar system rather than I have the power to blow up the Solar System along with you Gohan now that would be considered more so hyperbole as we would know considering the facts in regards to how most villains are as well but my point is that Cell is a super computer he would know how much power it would take to destroy a solar system and it fits in the context of I`ve gathered enough ki. The following is important because these words came from the mouth of Akira Toriyama himself during an interview and it proves why ki control is important rather than just simply Power Levels also it would fit in with the context of what Cell actually meant and had stated. Ki control and Ki size are important factors in which in most cases, DBZ characters would have their attacks harnessed or focused instead of expanded within an particular area, a good example would be when Vegeta fought Perfect Cell and performed Final Flash, the attack itself threatened to blow up the earth but Vegeta harnessed and focused the power, also in many cases focused and concentrated explosions can be a lot more devastating than expanded ones within an certain area.

Q: What’s the secret of winning in battle?

Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe"

#77 Posted by Freefa11 (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Wouldn't Gohan stomping Cell be PIS? I can't remember the fight exactly, but I know Cell was destroying everyone.

Also, if one person's PL is higher than the other's, doesn't that mean they will beat them in a beam clash? Hasn't it always been that way in DBZ? Cell's blast was capable of (you know what) and Gohan was weakened and using one arm. Cell's blast should've just went straight through Gohan's with ease on an epic scale.

Like others, I don't understand why you are assuming Gohan was weaker in the first place. In fact, all indications are that he was equal or stronger.

Just to give a bit of a recap; Cell starts off by fighting Goku. Goku eventually surrenders, and states that Gohan will take his place. The implication here is that Gohan, even at just SS1, is already more powerful than Goku, he just doesn't realize it. Goku apparently even believe Gohan is more powerful than Cell at that point. This is still before hitting SS2.

Cell then PO's Gohan like nobody's business, prompting the change to SS2, at which point, Gohan completely stomps all the Cell Jr.s, and then Cell himself. Cell ends up self-destructing.

After this, Cell regenerates and comes back. Note that Cell is MUCH more powerful now. This is the point at which he claims to be able to destroy the solar system. It is often referred to as Super Perfect Cell. He needed a massive power upgrade to reach the point where he was actually a match for Gohan and a solar system buster.

I hope that clears it up. There's really no reason at all to believe Gohan was much weaker than Cell at that point; it certainly doesn't seem to be implied by the manga.

But the original creator of the Sentry stated he had the "Power of 1000 Exploding Suns". So, according to you guys, it must be have been true when he created the character.

Do you also believe it whenever someone tells you that they are "hungry enough to eat a horse"? I mean...the hungry person knows how hungry he is better than Random Internet People right?

The authorship of DBZ doesn't really compare with what happens at DC and Marvel. All DC and Marvel characters are corporate entities. As such, authors don't really have true authority over anything they write to a large extent, because ultimately Marvel editorial can overturn any decision, or hand the character off to another writer at any time. Toriyama's status regarding DBZ is more like the author of a novel; like Tolkien's authority over Middle Earth or Steven King's authority over any of his works. If King came out and said Pennywise could crush the sun, then I think everyone would pretty much just take it as true; as the sole author and creator, his words are pretty much the word of God as far as everything relating to that universe is concerned. If Toriyama confirmed Cell should be able to do it, then that's pretty much the end of the argument as far as DBZ canon goes.

Note that I haven't seen this statement for myself, so I actually don't know for sure if he said he could do it, or if he said something else that some people are taking to mean that Cell could do it. I'm just saying if he did make such an affirmative statement, it's Word of God as far as DBZverse goes.

Now, yes, obviously hyperbole is also just a common part of everyday speech. But usually you can tell by identifying things that are blatantly false or impossible/improbable. We know the phrase "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" is hyperbole because human beings just don't have the capacity to do so. But what if the Hulk made a statement like that? Then it's a lot harder to tell. Has the Hulk ever been shown to eat a horse? Not that I'm aware of. But could he? Who knows? He's much, much larger than a person, and it is certainly conceivable he burns a ton of calories with his metabolism (particularly his healing factor). Even if his stomach isn't physically as large as a horse, I doubt he'd have much trouble compressing that much matter into a small enough ball to fit. So some people are going to say yes, he probably could do it, while others might sit there going, well, if we haven't seen him do it, we should assume he can't.

Cell is kind of like that. Destroying the solar system is a huge feat. But we're not talking about Batman, or even Superman here. We're talking about a guy who makes a planet-buster like Freeza look like a dust mite. His power should, rightfully, be so far beyond the minimum to destroy the earth that it's not even funny. Now, sure, without that phrase I doubt anyone would actually extrapolate him to be at that level. On the other hand, does it actually contradict things? We don't really know how much stronger the Z fighters became in the RoSaT, but it was clearly a large amount, for guys who are already way past planet-busting to begin with, and it still wasn't close to where Cell was at, even before his Zenkai. So if the author actually comes out and says, "yeah, he can do that," well, it's not really clashing with anything, it just means he, Gohan, and Goku all improved a lot more than most people would have thought.

And as for Sentry, while I do believe the phrase "a million exploding suns" was primarily meant as a colorful epithet, we're talking about a universe where characters like Scarlet Witch and Mad Jim Jaspers are reality busters, so it's hardly out of the realm of possibility. I don't think anything in the original miniseries actually contradicted the statement, so maybe there could have been some truth to it back then. However, I think it is harder to argue, because the mini doesn't even really show us that he has the power of one exploding sun, let alone a million. Again, with Cell we already know he makes planet busters look like bugs, so the big question is basically how small of a bug. Of course, later writers of Sentry made it look pretty conclusive that he actually did not literally possess the power of a million exploding suns, so it hasn't really been an issue for a while.

#78 Posted by Shawnbaby (10641 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11: Stephen King and Tolkien used Hyperbole often in their books. Just because something only has a single writer it doesn't make the hyperbole any less of a hyperbole. When authors discuss the characters they create...they often use hyperbole to describe their powers. It's a literary tool. Also, considering Toriyama has also said he doesn't remember a lot of what of he wrote....it's hard to take anything he says on specific characters at 100% face value.

Now...I'm not saying that everything said in Manga is hyperbole...but this claim that there is no hyperbole in Manga because there is only one writer is just wrong-headed. In any form of fiction there is going to be hyperbole. If a character makes a claim that is within the realms of what we already know is true about that character...that's cool. But there is a big damn difference between planet breaking and Solar System breaking.

I used the Sentry for a reason. When he was first introduced he was said to have the power of 1000 exploding suns....did I take that at face value? No...i was pretty sure they were just taking some dramatic license to garner some interest in the character. What I took from it was that he was an incredibly powerful being. Hyperbole is good for that.

Thor is a proven planet buster...but if I told you that he was a Solar System buster...you'd probably want me to prove that. I don't see why it should be any different for Manga characters.

#79 Posted by Theorder14 (1446 posts) - - Show Bio
#80 Posted by Universalshadow (33 posts) - - Show Bio

Roshi and Picollo are moonbusters, deal with it. According to Toriyama Dragon Ball moon = irl moon.

The reason why Gohan's kamehameha didn't destroy the solar is because the majority of the enerygy was spent overcoming Cell's kamehameha and it wasn't aimed at the sun (I personally think that Cell was planning to blow up the sun)

And Frieza failing to one shot Namek was due to him holding back as he wanted to beat Goku with his own strength and would've preferred not to get caught in the explosion and part PIS.

#81 Edited by nickzambuto (13415 posts) - - Show Bio

STOP QUOTING ME DAMMIT OH GOD I NEVER SHOULD OF POSTED IN A DBZ THREAD

#82 Edited by buttersdaman000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio

@freefa11:

Im pretty sure it was either in an old shonen jump or a (super) otaku #???. Also, I recall another interview saying that Majin's Buu's PL could be very large or small, not saying this true since I only saw it online (but it looked legit).

And? I wasnt talking about Toriyamas choice to shy away from PL numbers anymore. I was talking about people using those numbers for calculations.

I agree, mostly.

How do you take that away from the argument? The only reason this argument is brought up is because people try to use PL in a linear fashion. I honestly know most of the characters in DB are planet busters, but when you say so-and-so can bust x with a power level of 5, therefore with a PL of 25 so-and-so can bust 5x, I have a problem. That's scaling in a linear fashion, not even close to abc. So when that happens, the farmer and Kid Goku are brought up. And somebody already informed me of Roshi's actual PL when he moon busted.

Which is what I said? I haven't denied once that Roshi or Piccolo were moon busters. I just chose to use a 'colourful' word for the moon seeing as how its always destroyed. And the only people who think i'm anti-dbz, even when I have an avi of Goku, are the people who automatically assume any criticism to be hate.....which is the vibe i'm getting from a lot of you.

Besides pointing out that PL's were not linear, my second point in introducing the farmer was to introduce the plateau. So, no, a jump from 300 to 18,000 wouldn't necessarily mean that

I see either solar system or galaxy so I chose to include both.

Ill say it again, I don't remember any clear admittance to the feat or panel showing it in any of my volumes. But if i'm wrong, im wrong. It still doesn't hurt the plateau theory.

I said that because i'm pretty sure Roshi became a lot stronger by the and of DB. If PL did rise linearly he shouldve had the power to (maybe).

And if Toriyama really said it, then fine. But the most I see are (iffy) scans, which can be easily manipulated. Give me an issue number or at least the magazine it was in. For example, Otaku 297(???) is where Toriyama reveals that characters reached light speed in the majin buu saga. Until I see something like that, or an actual volume, i'm not just gonna take everything as fact. Call me a hater or say i'm purposely trying to dismiss whatever, but really i'm just trying to go on facts and feats.

#83 Edited by TheSS2GreenLanturnArmy (31 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: yeah you are pretty wrong, while I agree that master roshi busting the moon was the most BS thing I've ever seen. A moon buster is Saiyan saga vegeta. He doesn't have enough power to completely destroy is he does have the power to shoot deep enough into it that it will break. In dbz if you focus a blast on a specific target than it is more way more effective. PERFECT EXAMPLE: when goku used his spirit bomb on freiza that was a planet busting blast and it only destroyed about a states worth of area because it was focused on freiza. But when freiza aimed for namek itself (and his blast was weaker than the spirit bomb) he shot straight through the whole planet namek. And you have to take into account how big the planet or moon is. Namek is probably like 7 earths put together like when nappa destroyed arlia maybe arlia was a very small planet. And how trained there energy like teins tri beams that he used on cell and how they control their ki like when some blast blow up on contact and others dont explode untill it smashes their target against something. like how a spirit bomb can only be aimed at pure evil and it wont stop untill it runs out of power or every single cell of that person is destroyed. They were ATLEAST 10 times stronger than himself but it took his life force energy. So in theory if cell aimed at the solar system instead of an opponent he defenatly could destroy it.

#84 Edited by xlab3000 (3211 posts) - - Show Bio

Cell is a solar system buster and Vegeta is a planet buster

#85 Edited by xlab3000 (3211 posts) - - Show Bio

@thess2greenlanturnarmy: Master Roshi destroyed the moon deal with it. Raditz said they can concentrate their energy blast into a single point. just look at the special beam canon Piccolo shot through Goku and Raditz and it didn't destroy a moon. Vegeta is a planet buster

#86 Posted by Shawnbaby (10641 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: I understand what you are trying to do here...but posts like these tend get people all riled up.

#87 Edited by Jgames (1682 posts) - - Show Bio

If you stronger than someone pl, then you should be able to do anything that person does. BUT, it is probaly not linear.

Massively FTL, Technally they should if you add the ssj multiplier, but in the same time I highly doubt it, Power level is not as linear as people think. I said probaly not.

FTL yes

Universe buster XD NO. Unless you are destroying reality, just no unless your Fan boy level is OVER 8000. Which was the correct translation but, was mistaken as 9000

Galaxy buster, only one charecter can hold that title which is Bill (cough, cough Broly is not a galaxy buster cough) , anybody below him no

Solar system Yes, but I do see why people don't believe it.

DBZ are planet buster wheter you believed it or not. If you don't, I don't care, you just a troll or a hater.

Durability is weaker than their output, unless they have barrier. Barrier equal to their output, but without it, no.

Piccolo despite being weaker than Raditz, kill him.

Pikkon despite being twice as stronght as goku possible, was worried about getting hit by a kamekameha.

Goku almost kill cell despite the power difference.

Vegeta did masive damage to cell even though they were huge pl cap.

And this is not a battle, this belong to charecter

#88 Edited by terry2012 (5086 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: Vegeta is a solar system buster. He is by the time of the Buu saga. Cell can do it in the Cell saga and Gohan overpower him. Since Cell can do it then Vegeta most definitely can do it too. In truth, He is stronger than Gohan was during the Cell saga in the Buu saga and Goku and Vegeta admits this. Durbra is as strong as Imperfect Cell and Vegeta statement about Durbra made Durbra look like he is nothing incomparable to them, and including himself. Vegeta was already a planet busters in the Sayain saga and gotten way stronger than that. In the movie is said that he is stronger than Goku, and Both him and Goku had surpassed Ultimate Gohan in the movie.

#89 Edited by Parallax_Hal_Jordan (863 posts) - - Show Bio

@jgames said:

Piccolo despite being weaker than Raditz, kill him.

Raditz was weakened by Gohan's headbutt (with a pl of 1307),don't know how much,but he clearly stated that he was weaker.And Piccolo's Makankosappo rose his pl a little more than 3x (408 to 1330) and the Kame Hame Ha did the same to Goku's (416 to 924),so,what killed Raditz was more powerful than him...

Goku almost kill cell despite the power difference.

When they fight in the Cell games,Cell was restrained in order to have a fair fight with Goku (we saw it and Cell said it himself,and we know it was true when he unleash all his power against Gohan Ss2),if you have less pl (what Cell did when he face Goku) you have less speed,strenght,power output,durability,etc

Vegeta did masive damage to cell even though they were huge pl cap.

Same as above (and here he was even more restrained than when he fought Goku)

#90 Edited by russellmania77 (15021 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku wins

This is lame to debate already

#91 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

This, is a prime example of why DBZ vs Comic threads have been banned.

#92 Edited by xlab3000 (3211 posts) - - Show Bio

@terry2012: I agree. but when did Vegeta>Goku in BoG

#93 Posted by terry2012 (5086 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlab3000: When he fights Bills. Bills mention him being stronger than Goku. Since he fought Goku first but remember, it is only a moment.

#94 Edited by houseshm (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@terry2012: bills never said vegeta was stronger than goku. Vegeta had a rage fit after bills slapped bulma and he attacked bills but bills took him down easily. As for the debate cell is a solar system buster. Akira Toriyama wrote it this way.