#1 Posted by DarkScarecrow (574 posts) - - Show Bio

Who wins inH2H? 
 
Who wins in a shootout? 
  
Location ; A very large Alley in Gotham City. 
Morals stay off. 
No prep. 
Winner by Death. K.O. for the H2H.  
In the alley, both are 25 ft. away. 

#2 Posted by darktiger (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

David cain this is a good ol' curbstomp

#3 Posted by DarkScarecrow (574 posts) - - Show Bio
@darktiger: How so?
#4 Posted by darktiger (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkScarecrow said:

@darktiger: How so?

they not in the same league david taught batman,cassandra,fought deathstroke to a stalemate,and fought shiva to a stalemate

#5 Posted by DarkScarecrow (574 posts) - - Show Bio
@darktiger: Oh.
#6 Posted by darktiger (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkScarecrow said:

@darktiger: Oh.

Yeah pretty much

#7 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7086 posts) - - Show Bio

Right.

What has David Cain done besides get his arse handed to him by Batman, and purportedly stalemated Deathstroke in a flashback sequence we didn't even really get to see?

David Cain is 90% hyperbole.

Crossbones takes him out.

#8 Posted by Cochise (687 posts) - - Show Bio

@darktiger said:

@DarkScarecrow said:

@darktiger: How so?

they not in the same league david taught batman,cassandra,fought deathstroke to a stalemate,and fought shiva to a stalemate

Of course, Cain's fight with Deathstroke was a complete outlier compared to every other showing of his, since Deathstroke routinely tools Batman up in H2H, and Batman similarly tools up Cain. Also, Cain was just one of Batman's teachers, not his primary teacher by any means.

#9 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7086 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cochise said:

@darktiger said:

@DarkScarecrow said:

@darktiger: How so?

they not in the same league david taught batman,cassandra,fought deathstroke to a stalemate,and fought shiva to a stalemate

Of course, Cain's fight with Deathstroke was a complete outlier compared to every other showing of his, since Deathstroke routinely tools Batman up in H2H, and Batman similarly tools up Cain. Also, Cain was just one of Batman's teachers, not his primary teacher by any means.

Agreed.

Though we do need to avoid ABC logic, but there is some truth in the comparison.

Freddie Roach taught GSP boxing for a time, does that automatically mean Freddie would school GSP striking in the Octagon? Same could be said for GSP's BJJ coach, Muay Thai coach etc. etc. etc.

Folks need to stop adhering to the incredibly flawed logic that a sensei or coach is a better fighter than the pupil by default. Far, far ,far from true.

#10 Posted by darktiger (4754 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cochise said:

@darktiger said:

@DarkScarecrow said:

@darktiger: How so?

they not in the same league david taught batman,cassandra,fought deathstroke to a stalemate,and fought shiva to a stalemate

Of course, Cain's fight with Deathstroke was a complete outlier compared to every other showing of his, since Deathstroke routinely tools Batman up in H2H, and Batman similarly tools up Cain. Also, Cain was just one of Batman's teachers, not his primary teacher by any means.

I know

#11 Posted by Killemall (18746 posts) - - Show Bio

@darktiger said:

@DarkScarecrow said:

@darktiger: How so?

they not in the same league david taught batman,cassandra,fought deathstroke to a stalemate,and fought shiva to a stalemate

What instance are you referring to? He's fought her before she became Lady Shiva but thats a different story.

Also Cassy wasnt solely trained by Cain but rather by the whole League of Shadows, and well she's the daughter of Lady Shiva.

#12 Posted by Cochise (687 posts) - - Show Bio

Cain is probably winning the shootout. I can't think of any exceptional marksmanship feats for Crossbones. I'd say the H2H fight is a tossup. Both of them lose to their primary A-list enemy (Cap for Crossbones, Batman for Cain) after a fight that's usually decent.

#13 Posted by k4tzm4n (39439 posts) - - Show Bio
@Cochise said:

Cain is probably winning the shootout. I can't think of any exceptional marksmanship feats for Crossbones. I'd say the H2H fight is a tossup. Both of them lose to their primary A-list enemy (Cap for Crossbones, Batman for Cain) after a fight that's usually decent.

Here's his best accuracy feat:
 
 
 
 
Staff
#14 Posted by jashro44 (29463 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cochise: @Super_SoldierXII: Not saying david cain is as skilled as deathstroke all though he was in his prime back than and deathstroke likely became more skilled over time. Its possible that if you put batman against that deathstroke that was only able to stalemate cain in his prime, batman would win against that deathstroke. So that showing might not contradict anything.

#15 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7086 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Cochise: @Super_SoldierXII: Not saying david cain is as skilled as deathstroke all though he was in his prime back than and deathstroke likely became more skilled over time. Its possible that if you put batman against that deathstroke that was only able to stalemate cain in his prime, batman would win against that deathstroke. So that showing might not contradict anything.

Wasn't really a showing. Was just a mutual on paper nod between two top tier assassins of their day. Like two Samurai standing on a bridge, each acknowledging the others prowess, then turning and walking away.

Yawn.

I don't think the 'showing' contradicts anything because it's really not much of a showing. It's a nod to Cain's on paper prowess, without really showing anything. The fight or 'stalemate' is alluded to. Who knows what happened to result in said 'stalemate'?

Let's say Cain being 'older' had a hand in Batman beating him ... a decade or two of experience between here and there would benefit as much as hinder. Cain would have to have really degraded over the years to justify holding his own physically against Slade in his prime and then getting owned by Batman later on when Batman couldn't hold up against Deathstroke's (who's also consequently aged) superior stats.

#16 Posted by jashro44 (29463 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: That also makes sense as well. All though doesn't deathstrokes super solider serum keep him so he is at his prime?

#17 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7086 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Super_SoldierXII: That also makes sense as well. All though doesn't deathstrokes super solider serum keep him so he is at his prime?

I think it's quirky comic book timelines that does so more than anything else.

Age has an effect IMO, but when one is enhanced I guess it's far more negligible. This is just opinion mind you. Comics conveniently don't address such things logically. Which is why applying it to Cain's performance is opinion based at best IMHO.

(Frank Castle ... Vietnam vet ... yet still in his 30's ... hm.)

#18 Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (82981 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Let's say Cain being 'older' had a hand in Batman beating him ... a decade or two of experience between here and there would benefit as much as hinder.

Not if it was a decade of sitting on his @ss getting drunk everyday, which is exactly what he did. He was downing shots of whiskey right before Bats came in and laid the smackdown. It doesnt even appear as if Cain put up much resistance. He was hardly the man who had at one time led the League of Assassins. But I will say there is another time Batman defeats him (mind you this is still Cain past his prime). Where he at least fights back and briefly holds his own before going down for the count.

Still, it would be a mistake to think that Cain simply got older. He not only aged significantly, he became an alcoholic.

#19 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7086 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Let's say Cain being 'older' had a hand in Batman beating him ... a decade or two of experience between here and there would benefit as much as hinder.

Not if it was a decade of sitting on his @ss getting drunk everyday, which is exactly what he did. He was downing shots of whiskey right before Bats came in and laid the smackdown. It doesnt even appear as if Cain put up much resistance. He was hardly the man who had at one time led the League of Assassins. But I will say there is another time Batman defeats him (mind you this is still Cain past his prime). Where he at least fights back and briefly holds his own before going down for the count.

Still, it would be a mistake to think that Cain simply got older. He not only aged significantly, he became an alcoholic.

Cain never heard of drunken Kung Fu?

No? Ah ... fine. (Someone like Iron Fist woulda made the best of it though ... guess Cain ain't all that and a box o chocolates.)

So, essentially, you're saying Crossbones is squaring off against a has been alcoholic?

Still voting Crossbones! :)

#20 Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (82981 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Cain never heard of drunken Kung Fu?

No? Ah ... fine. (Someone like Iron Fist woulda made the best of it though ... guess Cain ain't all that and a box o chocolates.)

So, essentially, you're saying Crossbones is squaring off against a has been alcoholic?

Still voting Crossbones! :)

Ha! Right?

Mmmm, sorta. I'm saying when Batman kicked the ish out of him in Batgirl he was a has been alcoholic. He does go on to have some decent feats for a normal aged human though. He shot three armed guards with broken arms, strapped to a hospital bed, and didn't miss.

He also broke into the Batcave (a feat Nightwing states he couldnt have done) and frames Bruce Wayne (who he knows is Batman) for murder with some decent feats (that we of course dont get to see cause its David Cain, the Paper Champion).

He nearly killed Deadshot without having eaten in two weeks and wanting to die himself. The fight even starts off with his hands cuffed behind his back.

And he does extremely well against Cass Cain in her last series, but that more then likely had to do with her daddy issues then his actual skill.

Plus the plethora of on paper comments and verbal accolades (which dont mean much. I agree with you there). I think a decent case could be made for Cain. At least in the shootout.

H2H....not to use ABC logic but a Pregnant Lady Shiva kicked his @ss in his prime. Granted, Lady Shiva is the Apex badass of the DCU :D so maybe that isnt as embarrassing as I thought.

#21 Posted by Cochise (687 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@Cochise said:

Cain is probably winning the shootout. I can't think of any exceptional marksmanship feats for Crossbones. I'd say the H2H fight is a tossup. Both of them lose to their primary A-list enemy (Cap for Crossbones, Batman for Cain) after a fight that's usually decent.

Here's his best accuracy feat:

Cool, but I think Cain's feats with guns are better... I think the shootout fight would still go to him.

LOVE that Thunderbolts series, it's a shame it's ending.

@Gambler said:

Not if it was a decade of sitting on his @ss getting drunk everyday, which is exactly what he did. He was downing shots of whiskey right before Bats came in and laid the smackdown. It doesnt even appear as if Cain put up much resistance. He was hardly the man who had at one time led the League of Assassins. But I will say there is another time Batman defeats him (mind you this is still Cain past his prime). Where he at least fights back and briefly holds his own before going down for the count.

Still, it would be a mistake to think that Cain simply got older. He not only aged significantly, he became an alcoholic.

I think this degradation of Cain's skills gets exaggerated. He looked like he was in pretty standard form when he first showed up targeting Jim Gordon. It's not like he was going to jobs drunk, or looked washed up. And in comics, aging ten years usually means nothing. I think the David Cain you see there is pretty much Cain as he usually is. The only time someone made reference to his having changed over the years is when Deadshot tells him he got emotionally soft.