Darth Vader vs Loki

loki due to illusions and maybe durability

@darkraiden:

2. Sourcebooks have told us that blaster bolts are simply energy in a shaft of light, that have outdated lasers for 4000 years. If you want to just say "movies arent sourcebooks" then that's fine, but I don't really care either way, because that's what they are.

3. Lowball lowball lowball. Being ambushed by dozens upon dozens of shooters who a moment ago were your ally is no slight against your senses, and holds no baring on Vader fighting Loki. Just. Stop.

4. Nope, the illusions in question are purely visual. Nothing to do with affecting senses like the Force. So Vader should be able to tell the difference.

2. "movies aren't sourcebooks"

3. Huh? Half of the Jedi we saw didn't even sense the clones turning on them. It has everything to do with Loki vs. Vader. Vader personally doesn't have good sensing and the Jedi we have seen, also suck at sensing. If they didn't, they'd have seen it coming. Most didn't.

4. They're audio too actually. Padme Jane Foster was shown talking through them and dude heard her. He may have even hit her once. Not sure. And....sight is definitely a sense. Just saiyan.

@i_like_swords: why would something Thats not force related be abke to be detected through the force.

@nerdchore: That's the point. Illusions aren't living matter, therefore they wouldn't be sensed - only seen. Loki would be sensed.

3/4. What does it matter when the only senses that affect illusions are sight and hearing anyway? They aren't living matter, Loki is. Vader can sense living beings. Do. The. Math.

Hard to say. The battle would be legendary.

Pretty sure Vader can only sense things with the Force. Loki doesn't have the force...thus Vader can't sense Loki either.

@darkraiden: The Force is in every living thing.

.....Only in the Star Wars Universe. Loki doesn't have midichlorians and thus doesn't have the Force.

Well with that logic then lokis illusions wouldnt work on vader because lokis illusions only work in Marvel Universe.

@darkraiden: He can sense everything The yuuzhan vong are without the force but jedi could still sense them.

That's not canon nor is it movie.

@darkraiden: Yeah yeah but still he can sense every living and every thing

That's never been shown in the movies. Only sensing things with the force is in the movies. Loki doesn't have the force and thus won't be sensed.

@darkraiden: no They sense droids and they don't have the force Anakin can sense r2 in the clone wars.

Vader should win easily Loki can not do anything when Vader is hurling him around with TK and then Vader can simply impale him with his lightsaber.

@dontevenblink: Loki solo'ing Vader, Sidious, and Luke? HAHAHAHAHAH! No.

@darkraiden: You obviously know very little about Star Wars. Try learning a bit more about it before making ridiculous claims. Loki's illusions won't fool Vader one bit. Like ILS said, illusions are non-living things, only things that you can see. Vader would see them but wouldn't sense any life in them, however he would be able to sense Loki's presence. Plus, like Obi_Wan_ said, they have sensed things without medi-chlorians before, in and outside of the movies.

Loki may win due to superior speed, though I'm not sure yet, but his illusions will be completely useless.

As powerful as Vader may be, there is no chance in hell that he can match up to what loki can dish out

@_raptor_: we're both talking about movie versions right? cuz i'm well aware of the ridiculous EU Sidious feats and would prefer not to hear about them when discussing film feats.

I think Loki would win, Frigga's illusions tricked Malekith who was able to sense people in Thor: TDW, he had his own telekinesis (shown in Thor 2 while imprisoned) that he could maybe use to dismantle vader's prosthetics, and has prep. As king of asgard he has access to the entire vault of things we've seen in the films, inlcuding the tesseract.

None of this as shon in the movies. I've seen them all. And outside of the movies aren't even canon to Star Wars nonetheless this topic. Vader has yet to sense anything to make me think he can get past illusions. Period.

Mismatch for the following reasons:

1. Durability: Loki endures blows that have the power of small bombs. Vader's ability to endure is suspect because while Luke may be augmenting his blows with the force in Ep. 6, he certainly has basic human strength otherwise and his telekinesis is never remotely as powerful as the average blow dished out by Thor, Hulk, or Iron Man.

2. Strength: Loki rarely uses his strength to full effect, but he does go toe to toe with the Jotuns. He also curbstomps several humans. Vader is strong among humans but never shows strength of any true enormity. Even his telekinetic might is weak compared to the forces Loki normally competes with.

3. Speed/Reflexes: Loki can catch an arrow while flying a hovercraft while not looking at it. He also displays a number of other lightning fast reflexes during the battle with the Jotun. Vader can equal these feats in deflecting blaster shots and his general skill with a lightsaber.

4. Combat Prowess: Vader catches a break here, but not as much as some would like to think. Loki does fight outright on occasion and is trained as an Asgardian warrior. He may not be the best but paired with his innate physical capacities he is more than capable of defending himself against a substantially weaker Vader.

5. Stealth/Perception: Loki is capable of not only assuming other forms (it is not clear if this is his illusory powers or shapeshifting which he also possesses in the comics), he often moves about Asgard without anyone else noticing including Heimdall whose perception is virtually impossible to escape on any world at any time. Combined with a suspected ability to teleport, he can move freely and stealthily at all times. His illusions contrary to the opinion of some, are likely tied to his psychic powers and can fool the telepathically inclined (as they do in the comics). Vader's perceptiveness in the original trilogy is vastly reduced from the prequels. He is surprised by Han Solo at the battle of Yavin IV and only shows an aptitude for sensing disturbances in the force caused by Jedi. An unknown factor is whether Loki possesses enough skill to entirely negate this sense or whether he even registers. Vader obviously possesses no real stealth capacities, preferring to intimidate outright.

6. Weapons and Armor: Loki possesses at present Gungnir, Odin's spear and wears Asgardian armor. The exact properties of these are unknown, but Gungnir as a weapon is able to strip Thor of his powers and send him to earth, fires beams of energy comparable to the destroyer, and also gives control over the destroyer armor. Loki's armor remains intact after many brutal strikes from Thor and the Hulk. Vader's armor is presumed to be at least somewhat susceptible to blaster fire (unless blocking it was mere intimidation) and is certainly incapable of deflecting lightsaber blows.

7. Other Powers: Loki has a level of psychic power that is not entirely disclosed. He can certainly force thoughts onto others and control their minds, particularly through the use of the Chitauri sceptre. Loki can also cause significant cold within an area as part of his Frost Giant heritage. Vader possesses some Telekinetic power still despite weakening after being maimed. This power is substantial against a human but the force generated pales compared to blows Loki has endured without even flinching.

None of this means Vader is some mere putz. If he had an Asgardian level physiology Vader would be more than a match for Loki. Unfortunately for Vader he is limited by the type of story he was written for. Vader is a classic mortal dark knight who has some minor magical powers. Loki is an evil god who causes trouble on a cosmic scale in a universe that has beings even more powerful than he. Marvel may have chosen to be a bit goofy with Loki in the movies, but his innate powers place him well out of Vader's grasp. The only way Vader wins is by tricking Loki into an alliance and upgrading himself with Asgardian technology.

Loki

Movie Loki hasn't really dished out anything impressive enough for me to believe he isn't going to get thrown around by Vader and receive a saber in his head. He has no defense against Vader's TK.

Vader in a hefty majority.

@dhumraketu: You obviously don't know anything about Star Wars. Before I clarify things for you, realize this is movie Loki vs Vader. So no, this is by far not a mismatch.

1. Luke is by far stronger than typical "Human" strength. He has broken metal restraints off his wrists that should have been impossible for a man his size and he has also performed one finger handstands. This is kinda irrelevant here though so back onto the topic.

2. Vader's TK weak? Lmao not even worth clarifying. Read up on feats.

3.Loki can catch an arrow while flying a hovercraft while not looking at it. He also displays a number of other lightning fast reflexes during the battle with the Jotun. -

-That is not even impressive.Its an arrow... and it does not travel as fast as a shot from a blaster. Vader also posses precognition which is better than basic reflexes. He can see things before they happen.

4. Vader isn't significantly weaker. His cybernetics alone make him strong and the force enhances his physical attributes. His blows with his lightsaber shattered the ground when he was only Anakin dueling Assajj ventress and yes ROTJ Vader is stronger than AOTC Anakin. Just because Loki could be a little stronger does not mean he can contend with skills of a Sith Lord.

5. Stealth is a non-factor vader will sense him and Han surprising Vader means nothing. That only happened because Vader sensed Luke was strong in the force and was baffled by it.

6. Loki's equipment doesn't mean anything. This is movie Loki and you said it yourself its factors are unknown so you can't assume its capabilities. By that logic BS could be assumed for Vader like his lightsaber being more powerful because its red... and The Destroyer isn't valid anyway this is a fight purely between Vader and Loki.

7. Doubt that the scepter would be able to work on Vader because of his strong connection to the force. And what the hell is the cold going to do? Vader walks around on Hoth in his armor like its nothing.

Nothing here even remotely secures Loki a winning edge over Vader. You obviously don't understand anything at all about Star Wars and really should read up on it before making so many false claims. For example "Vader is a classic mortal dark knight who has some minor magical powers." First off its the force not magic! And it is not minor by any means if that really was even worth stating. It is more than enough to compete with move Loki's showings...

@xxacid_spitxx:

I wasn't aware that we were basing feats solely off the movie versions of vader and Loki

1. Luke displays strength in the movies that is nowhere near the enormity you suggest except during short bursts. He breaks the manacles with use of the force (it is explicitly stated in the script). The use of the force to augment physical strength isn't even established in the movies, and certainly not in the original trilogy which is the Vader we face.

2. Vader's TK is weak by the time of episodes IV-VI. His greatest TK feat during these is to tear up some internal components of Cloud City and toss them around at Luke who, at the time, is still a Padawan who hasn't even learned to lift his fighter out of a swamp. Luke barely takes any more damage during this scene than having some boxes fall on him. Luke's TK is barely developed at all at this point and is insignificant compared to his father's already weakened TK so any deflection is also insignificant.

3. Loki does not even look at the arrow until the last second. Arrow speed may not be much but it is within two feet of him at the time he catches it. He is also busy pursuing Black Widow on an alien device he has never presumably flown before. Blaster bolts in SW are notoriously slow and easily dodged, that or stormtroopers are insanely bad shots. Precognition is no substitute for reflexes either. Precognition only allows you to sense the threat, at that point you still have to react to it. Vader's precognitive feats within the movies are slim, particularly after becoming a cyborg. He doesn't sense Han Solo barreling down on him at Yavin IV and generally shows little precognitive knowledge of anything that does not stem from strong emotion.

4. Vader's connection to the force was substantially weakened by becoming a cyborg. It's well established in commentary from the original triology and confirmed in supplementary materials relating to the movies. What he gained in physical strength was miniscule compared to what he lost in ability to augment himself prior to cyberization. In episodes IV-VI he displays substantial strength compared to a human but he is not evidenced as having strength even remotely on par with the likes of Thor, the Hulk, or Iron Man. Hulk doesn't even injure Loki to any significant extent after beating him like a ragdoll. Where does Vader even begin to show this level of strength? The only feat you mention that even rivals their strength is not from the movies but EU material and is an attack that pushed his limits, and is a matter of casual effort for the Hulk even if we were to include it. Also ROTJ Vader is not stronger than AOTC Anakin. You are letting your knowledge of EU materials overwhelm the reality of the movies as they stand on their own.

5. Vader being distracted by noticing a Luke is strong in the force means nothing? It's indicative of not being able to focus! And has been stated many times in this thread and others, Jedi have a very spotty track record with being able to sense others. Vader knows Obi is on the Death Star in Ep. IV but has no idea where. He shows no real special ability to sense non-force users. Loki by comparison is used to concealing himself mentally. Loki evades the notice of Heimdall who can see everything in the known universe other than that which came before its creation. Heimdall's sensory feats far outstrip Vader's, hence Loki has the edge.

6. Loki's equipment means nothing? Yes the limits are unknown but Gungnir is Odin's personal weapon inherited from his father and used to fight everything from the Dark Elves to the Jotun. The Dark Elves are as powerful as any Asgardian (their attack scene on Asgard in Thor 2 is totally ripped off from SWTOR also). Given that standard firearms won't even bruise an Asgardian and Gungnir can slice through their equals, it is at least as deadly in the melee as a lightsaber. It also doubles as a beam weapon which fires a rather large swath making it hard to deflect. The destroyer does matter as Loki can summon it to any location to assist him and there is two weeks of prep, it's not a person, it's a weapon, and it kills gods. Loki's armor, again, endures blows vastly superior to any personal armor evidenced in SW.

7. Loki's manipulation abilities are very much in play as Vader is particularly susceptible to being manipulated. Again Loki fools Heimdall, Heimdall exhibits greater sensory abilities than any Jedi within the movies and rivaling the best of them in the EU. Therefore Loki is possibly capable of manipulating Vader who is frankly a psychological mess. The ability to generate cold is included for thoroughness, Loki could perhaps chose to finish him with it for fun, but it is too slow a power to be used in combat.

Your conclusions are incredibly skewed, and your dismissive attitude of my SW knowledge laughable. I grew up watching it in the theaters (original releases) and I can tell your completely biased based on EU materials. NOTHING in the movies supports any of your claims. Your inability to understand my comment about Vader being an archetypal dark knight shows that you are not familiar at all with SW origins as a heroic epic set in space. The force is presented as a mystical force virtually indistinguishable from magic in the original trilogy. It is also established as a mystical entity in many EU materials including everything relating to the witches of Dathromir or the Battle for Endor. The fight is between movie Vader from Ep. IV-VI (or possibly from the last scene of Ep. III but he's so emotionally messed up there that fighting the god of lies would be suicide). Anything from outside those parameters is off limits. Any evidence from the prequels is superceded automatically by original triology since the Vader in question is obviously post-mutilation and he only has one scene after it in the prequels.

If you want to start a thread about EU Vader vs. Comic Loki, now that is a more even and more interesting fight.

First line of the OP is Movie Versions. Pictures clearly indicate post mutilation Vader. We can only assume most current movie version Loki. Variation in movie Loki only changes access to All Asgardian tech (end of Thor 2); Access to Chitauri tech (The Avengers). It's a moot point since as i argue above, original triogy Vader never comes close to showing the capacity to even challenge Loki. Doesn't mean he's not the cooler character though!

@dhumraketu: 1. It doesn't matter if its through the force or not the force is his power and it makes him super human strong. Thats like saying Thor isn't strong because his strength comes from being an Asgardian. Besided his demonstration of one finger handstands and carrying Vader( who weighs over 300 lbs) on his back through the death star after being severely injured by the emperor's force lightening displays natural strength above a normal human. But like i said before this is irrelevant to the battle.

2. That is a terrible assumption vader is very capable of doing much worse and even that showing is enough to toss Loki around or force him to the ground.

3.Blaster bolts in SW are notoriously slow. - Blaster fire is much faster than a bullet let alone an arrow so this is extremely irrelevant and indicates to me your extremely ignorant to SW by trying to demean facts. Anyways precognition is definitely a superior substitution than reflexes. Luke was able to see ships that move the speed of light in slow motion. So if you honestly believe catching a lousy arrow reflex is a superior feat than a precognition than your not worth debating. I will cease visiting each point from here on because these points have become irrelevant to me after this.

To be honest I really don't have much interest in clarifying things for you because your SW knowledge is pitiful. You think because you watched the movies you know everything Vader is capable of. You also fail to realize that much of the feats and abilities is listed are not all from the EU many are from the novelization of the movies and they are cannon. Movie Loki hasn't shown anything to suggest he can beat Vader easily like you believe. Vader has a very high chance of winning this one. Talk to @dccomicsrule2011@shootingnova or @jedixman and debate with them they have a lot more interest than I do in debating, I do not have the time or interest to clarify that your demeaning exaggerations like Vader not seeing Han in the Falcon indicates he won't be able to focus in a battle or sense Loki. Lol that's preposterous... And no EU Vader vs. comic Loki is a dumb idea comic loki would stomp this is a much evener thread where I think Vader takes it at least 7/10.

You're the one who came into the thread directly insulting me. I was far more gracious in my response than you were in yours. If all you can do is run away crying that I have been so nasty to you then perhaps you should check your own attitude at the door. And if you can point someone in this direction who can debate politely and prove me wrong, please do. I have no trouble being proven wrong, what I do have a problem with is people like yourself who come in claiming everyone else knows nothing when you don't even understand that precognition and reflexes are two separate things. Precognition allows you to sense something is happening, Reflexes are your ability to react to what you sense. Try actually knowing what the hell you are talking about before you call other people on it... or just go on being a complete ass.

@dhumraketu: Nah you just bore me because your wrong and I have better things to do at the moment. Go cry to somebody who cares.

I'm not the one crying here man. You can post your little whine fest all day and night, it's a free world. But yeah you just had to come back and attack me again because you have jack and you know it. Your whole argument from the beginning is "You don't know anything but I have no real examples to prove my point so I'm just gonna claim you know nothing and personally berate you while simultaneously whining that you're demeaning." You came in swinging and what have you proven? Vader still has no feats within the movies of strength beginning to rival the Hulk, and the Hulk couldn't do more than daze Loki. You claim Vader can sense Loki but you still have no answer to Loki evading the detection of Heimdall's vastly superior senses. Vader's weapon is a confined plasma beam and Loki takes a lightning bolt (which is an electrically charged plasma channel) to the chest with no discernible damage to himself and barely scuffing his armor. Loki, while rarely taking up melee combat can still hold his own against Thor who repeatedly drops hits equivalent to small bombs. Even if Vader can muster the power to harm Loki it is far more likely Loki will have killed him by then, or will shortly after.

You have nothing here, zero, zip, nada. From the start all you have done is personally attack me and make arguments of incredulity. You claim I am demeaning to Vader, how about you stop demeaning yourself with this whiny little crap? The only person here suffering from this argument is you. You came in making it personal and then tried to pretend you were taking your toys and going home because I showed a slight bit of contempt for your attitude. You claim I bore you because you have better things to do right now but here you are again trying to sucker punch and run like a pansy.

The only thing you've proven so far is that you can't behave in a civil fashion and you don't even have the courage to face a situation you yourself created. So you can keep pretending to take your toys and go home or you can stay and snipe at me with your little insults all you like. Either way it doesn't matter to me. If you need the attention bad enough to keep coming back and insulting me then I can accommodate. I will never be able to give you some self-respect though, that's something you have to work on yourself.

Loki... More durable, & I see him outsmarting Vadar & tricking him a lot

... This is nice and all...

But would someone PLEASE tell me why Vader doesn't just snap Loki's neck the SECOND the fight starts? Before he has the chance to even start to make an illusion/use Gugnir?

I agree that Loki would win in a physical encounter, but Movie Loki has no real counter to TK. The way I see it, the fight starts and Vader just reaches up, and twists his hand suddenly, resulting in Loki's neck being pointed at a fatal angle.

Or he just picks him up and slams him around like a ragdoll.

If you go back up to where I was actually making my points on the matter at hand you will notice that Movie Loki, while being a frail-looking and whiny little runt, endures being hit with massive damage such as being slammed repeatedly by Hulk like a ragdoll. Movie Vader post-mutilation never shows remotely enough TK force to rival Hulk's strength which didn't do more than stun Loki. If being beaten in the head by Thor or Hulk doesn't break your neck, a force choke isn't going to seal the deal.

Also this fight is with prep. And again, movie Loki is able to go undetected by Heimdall whose senses are shown to be vastly superior to any force user in the movies. He will start the encounter concealed because ultimately, he likes to play mind games and will see Vader as a puny human needing machines to keep him alive. Simultaneously he will fear giving Vader an opening to embarrass him. To reinforce his own self-image he will impale Vader from behind with Gungnir. Vader may sense a general disturbance and react fast enough to turn and face Loki, maybe even parry the first blow, but Loki only has to smack him with the shaft to crush Vader's head or cause massive trauma to his body.

As I believe i said before, if Vader had the weakest Asgardian body or something equivalent he could take Loki on combat skill alone. He's still the bigger badass, even if you consider prequel Anakin's whine fest, at least he had real issues. Loki complains because his real father abandoned him and a loving family took him in and treated him like one of their own. He didn't even have an evil mastermind manipulating him emotionally.

Loki owns, but Vader is and will always be cooler.

@dhumraketu: Your points are awesome. You win... Mostly. I would like to point out, from a medical standpoint, that he'd still die if his neck was broken by a sudden, violent turn of his head too far in one direction. Something Vader should be capable of causing (unless Loki braces himself).

In literally every other area (except coolness) Loki wins, though.

Vader in a heavy majority.

• Vader would easily sense through his illusions, and Force Choke him. Movie Loki has no defense against any kind of TK. You also don't even need to be an organic thing to be able to be sensed by the Force. So you can argue all you want that Loki isn't apart of the Force, because it doesn't matter. Droids and objects aren't either, but those are sensed just fine. It's happened in the Clone Wars, but if you want proof from the movies (even though the Clone Wars is 100% canon), look no further than ESB. When Yoda lifts the X-Wing from the swamp, he clearly would have had to sense the ship first, because he can't see it. You could argue that he just Force pulled everything from the bottom of that swamp, but then a bunch of mud, fish, rocks, water, etc. would have came up with it, but that didn't happen. Only the ship came up, because he sensed a huge mass under the surface, and then pulled it up.
• In H2H, Vader has reach, and a more dangerous weapon, though it would never even come to this. Loki would be dead before he could close the distance.
• People seem to forget that where Vader has failed in combat, it's usually because there is another Force user impeding him. If someone else uses the Force to block Vader's abilities, he becomes much less effective, just like every Force user does. Loki doesn't have the Force, so that won't be a problem here.

Which, by the way, @darkraiden, you keep talking about how it's so ridiculous that none of the Jedi could sense that the clones were going to turn on them and how stupid that was, and you swear you've seen all the SW movies, but you conveniently forget that Palpatine was blocking everything from the Jedi. The Jedi had no idea that the clones were programmed to turn, and they never saw their ambush coming. The Jedi had no idea that the Chancellor was a Sith Lord, and never saw that betrayal at the senate coming. The Jedi didn't see the turning of Anakin coming, and were not prepared for that turn of events either. All of this is because Palpatine clouded everything with his vast knowledge of the Force. He was that good. It had nothing to do with the Jedi being bad at sensing. Movie Loki could never in a million years accomplish something like that. Vader would have no problem sensing him out and gutting him.

Comic Loki is an entirely different story...

I agree that TK of sufficient power would kill Loki. But he displays natural resilience of substantial levels even when hit by surprise as he was by the Hulk in the Avengers. I just don't think original triology Vader shows enough raw power. Prequel Vader might be able to do it. EU Vader definitely has the capacity to take Loki down, even full powered comic Loki because his force powers are substantially greater both in terms of sensory and TK. The main problem for Movie Vader is that his force powers are gimped by the mutilation. Although only explicitly stated in EU materials, this is inferred by two of Obi's statements "He's more machine now than man" and "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together." The implication having always been from the beginning that his now artificial nature has cut Vader off from the force to a large extent. This is why Luke, with relatively little training, is a match for him.

I like to look at it this way. Dr.Doom was partially responsible for inspiring Vader. In the Marvel universe Doom is one of the most powerful mortals there is. If Vader were made for Marvel he'd be at least equal to Doom... we're just gonna forget about movie Doom though...

Everything you just stated I refuted above with the exception of Jedi being able to sense inorganic objects (I totally agree). If you want people to accept the force at face value you also have to accept the powers of the Marvel universe at face value. Just because Loki's mental powers don't have the robust and interesting history or cosmic mysticism of the force does not mean they are unable to compete. Loki's illusions fool Heimdall, Heimdall displays greater sensory capacity than any Jedi. Vader's lightsaber has less reach than Gungnir (Odin's spear which Loki currently possesses) and is a plasma weapon that does not inherently do more damage than a lightning strike (also plasma), which doesn't even harm Loki's armor much less him. Vader can win the mental battle but he still can't exert the force necessary to kill a being which isn't even harmed substantially by Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk.

I don't blame you for underestimating movie Loki, the Marvel cinematic universe is totally irreverent and lacks the serious undertone of SW, particularly the original trilogy. If Lucas had intended beings like Loki to exist in SW then Darth Vader would almost certainly be a god-killer.

@dhumraketu: Lol you mad bro? Just because your a little insecure twat and can't take somebody disagreeing with your stupid comments doesn't mean I was trying to get personal. I quit talking to you because I have better things to do in my time then debate with some little bitch who snaps when somebody tells them they disagree or that their points are wrong. Yes Loki is more durable than Vader that's the only thing you will be correct on but talking down his feats just from movie showings that were minuscule because of the time it came out is irrelevant. The novelization of the movies detail Vader's power in more depth. Lol toys? really?? thats the best insult you can come up with in your little hissy fit?? lmao your sad. And you honestly believe its an act of courage to debate with a dick-less nerd like you? You gotta be kidding me the only reason why i chose not to is because I have nothing nice to say to you and I realized I was kinda blunt but you asked for me to be a dick now. And please stop lying to yourself that you know anything about star wars, you referred to blaster bolts being slower than arrows and Vader possessing magic rofl. And to the mods, because I know this loser is going to report this i'm sorry but this guy pissed me off so I am putting his whinny ass back in place.

Mad? I'm having fun! This conversation has become a teaching tool for me when I do abuse victim support groups and prevention seminars. From your entrance into the thread all through now you are a classic abusive personality, right down to crying to the mods in the last sentence of your post with self-righteous flair in an attempt to distract from the fact that you came in here tossing a hissy fit and got mad when called out for it. These are some of the most blatant attempts at projection I have ever seen. I did make one mistake I do need to publicly apologize for though and that is not taking this private and allowing the thread to derail. So if you wish to keep flinging your petty insults at me in private feel free. I could use more slides of this quality. If you wish to engage in polite and rational debate that option has always remained open to you. Either way I hold no ill will towards you.

And so, to twist this all back to Loki vs. Vader. How mentally stable do we consider each to be and how much of a factor do you think it is in any confrontation (not just this one)? Vader is a mess at the end of Ep. III obviously, but by Ep. IV he seems fairly well adapted (considering). He does become more troubled as time moves on through Ep. VI obviously with Luke sensing conflict within Vader." Although I don't think it changes the outcome of this conflict (particularly because Loki cannot read minds outright) I think it becomes a potentially exploitable weakness in Ep. VI but not as much before that. Luke's rejection of him doesn't cause any sort of whiny depression or anything, but it does seem to raise some doubts. Loki begins whiny as hell and over relatively little compared to Anakin. By the end of Thor 2 he does seem to have reconciled many of his issues. This is evidenced primarily in the final scene with Thor where he displays complete control while pretending to be Odin. He is magnanimous throughout whereas before his comments tended to be laced with venomous subtext. He also lacks the petulant attitude of the first Thor movie and The Avengers. There is a calm menace about him, not quite on par with Vader in Ep. IV and V, but certainly a noticeable change.