Darth Vader vs Kit fisto and Plo koon

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icecold14

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All Bloodlusted

Random encounter

Takes place in Kashyyk

All movie and comic feats apply

20ft apart

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ShootingNova

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This was discussed at some point by Silver, though it was in a thread involving Tenebrous as well.

Regardless, I stand by what Silver said in that thread. Vader can decisively beat either of them, individually, for a majority, but not the two of them at once. Team, 6-8/10.

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TheCrewcabanger

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I'd say Vader. He's fought multiple opponents a few times, has better control over his force abilities, has hugely augmented strength and a fighting styled designed around his one weakness making it unique to himself.

Vader doesn't even need to be present to choke one of the two, and I'm fairly certain that while he's gripping one of them he'll be battling the other simultaneously. Let's not forget that it's been written that Vader can muster up balls of TK energy and hurl them at opponents. Not to mention toppling an entire building over himself (I might be thinking of someone else here.)

Vader is crafty and intimidating, a master at demoralizing his foes. Losing a limb doesn't mean much for Vader either, as it's been shown that he can lose a hand and telekinetically fling it around to combat Jedi.

I give it to Vader a good solid 8/10 bouts.

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ShootingNova

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Vader is stronger than both (individually), more skilled than either of them individually, and faster than Plo Koon but slower and less agile than Kit Fisto by a noticeable margin. Vader is considerably more powerful than Kit (in fact, vastly more powerful is hardly a stretch), but Plo is comparable (he has collapsed caves with moderate effort).

So he could win against one of them, but not against both at once. Vader has never fought two opponents of this level and won. The Jedi on Kessel were absolutely featless and have nothing to compare to either Plo or Kit. Single Jedi such as Obi-Wan and Luke have troubled Vader enough on their own, and both Plo and Kit are of the same class. Two of them at once would beat him.

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okayalright_44

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Vader is stronger than both (individually), more skilled than either of them individually, and faster than Plo Koon but slower and less agile than Kit Fisto by a noticeable margin. Vader is considerably more powerful than Kit (in fact, vastly more powerful is hardly a stretch), but Plo is comparable (he has collapsed caves with moderate effort).

So he could win against one of them, but not against both at once. Vader has never fought two opponents of this level and won. The Jedi on Kessel were absolutely featless and have nothing to compare to either Plo or Kit. Single Jedi such as Obi-Wan and Luke have troubled Vader enough on their own, and both Plo and Kit are of the same class. Two of them at once would beat him.

this

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Jacthripper

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Team in a slim majority

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Erkan12

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#7  Edited By Erkan12

Plo & Kit are too fast for Vader to handle at the same time.

Team wins 6-7 of 10.

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juiceboks

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#8 juiceboks  Moderator

Vader has already been given trouble in 1v1 duels with Jedi of this level..two at once are just too much to handle.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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Vader ragdolls Fisto and then outduels Plo. He knows these two very well, and isn't an idiot. I can't see him attempting to outduel them both simultaneously for a majority.

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Beingfatissupercool

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I don't think Fisto is that good in fighting 1 vs 1 , and plo koon is more known for his flighting skills ,

And the fact i don't believe in 2 vs 1 being that much of an advantage , i would say vader wins .

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generator2000

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I say Vader wins, if cartoons don't count.

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Penderor

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#12  Edited By Penderor

Team for sure. Both can hold against him 1v1 and together they would beat him for majority.

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Vader ragdolls Fisto and then outduels Plo. He knows these two very well, and isn't an idiot. I can't see him attempting to outduel them both simultaneously for a majority.

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spartankobe

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@shootingnova said:

Vader is stronger than both (individually), more skilled than either of them individually, and faster than Plo Koon but slower and less agile than Kit Fisto by a noticeable margin. Vader is considerably more powerful than Kit (in fact, vastly more powerful is hardly a stretch), but Plo is comparable (he has collapsed caves with moderate effort).

So he could win against one of them, but not against both at once. Vader has never fought two opponents of this level and won. The Jedi on Kessel were absolutely featless and have nothing to compare to either Plo or Kit. Single Jedi such as Obi-Wan and Luke have troubled Vader enough on their own, and both Plo and Kit are of the same class. Two of them at once would beat him.

this

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okayalright_44

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@generator2000 Ya, since Fisto and Koon had about 1:30 seconds screen time in comparison to Vader having hours of it, I guess he would win..DUH. But the OP is including comics/EU so.....................what's your point?=

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ShootingNova

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Vader ragdolls Fisto and then outduels Plo. He knows these two very well, and isn't an idiot. I can't see him attempting to outduel them both simultaneously for a majority.

Vader knew Obi-Wan and Luke very well but still refused to employ telekinetic assault against them. I have difficulty seeing Vader ragdolling Fisto and still dueling Plo at the same time.

And Vader's morals aren't to ragdoll anyway. He either Chokes his opponent or throws missiles at them, or perhaps both (but Plo would get the better of him if he diverts his effort to doing such). He doesn't throw opposing Jedi around.

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Darth_Necray

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Plo could challenge Vader alone, with Kit I think they win 7-10

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dondave

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Team 1

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ShootingNova

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@dondave said:

Team 1

That's Vader, who's by himself.

lol

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@i_like_swords said:

Vader ragdolls Fisto and then outduels Plo. He knows these two very well, and isn't an idiot. I can't see him attempting to outduel them both simultaneously for a majority.

Vader knew Obi-Wan and Luke very well but still refused to employ telekinetic assault against them. I have difficulty seeing Vader ragdolling Fisto and still dueling Plo at the same time.

And Vader's morals aren't to ragdoll anyway. He either Chokes his opponent or throws missiles at them, or perhaps both (but Plo would get the better of him if he diverts his effort to doing such). He doesn't throw opposing Jedi around.

You need to factor in that those fights were based on the movie depictions, though. Force choking, ragdolling ect is virtually non-existent in live action Star Wars. I haven't seen all of Vader's EU appearances but I'm sure he employs ragdolling tactics more there.

Well, has he ever had the opportunity to carry out this kind of strategy, and then chose not to? Because honestly I would find it baffling if Vader was put in this situation and decided not to dispose of Kit.

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ShootingNova

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@i_like_swords: Not really. Vader still utilizes lightsaber combat more. Against the Dark Woman, whom he knew as well, he still mostly dueled her and the only telekinesis he utilized was to throw rocks at her.

Of course he has had the opportunity. Vader prefers to duel more than ragdoll, as is with the case with Tyranus, who never decided to instantly ragdoll Ventress out of the way before dueling with Savage, or instantly ragdoll her before dueling the Nightsisters, etc.

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@shootingnova: Ah well, if Vader is too dumb to do it, he could lose. Although even if he did it mid-duel he could possibly pull it off.

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ShootingNova

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@i_like_swords: He would get too quickly overwhelmed by the joint force of Plo's skill and Kit's speed and skill for a chance at a mid-duel ragdoll, or at least he won't be doing it for a majority.

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TheCrewcabanger

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Saying Vader has been solo'd by Jedi like Obi and Luke is pretty null considering that masters of Soresu are considered invincible in lightsaber combat, and Luke is his son trained by Obi-Wan himself, who was the one who trained Vader in the first place. I think it's safe to say that plo-koon and fisto are nowhere near luke and obi's level.

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ShootingNova

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#26  Edited By ShootingNova

I said Vader was challenged by Obi-Wan and Luke, not outright beaten, and masters of Soresu are hardly invincible. Obi-Wan got creamed every time he fought Dooku. Luminara more or less lost to Ventress, Zannah was losing to the Jedi on Tython, and so on. Individual characters' subjective opinions relating to invincibility of Soresu is quite irrelevant. If Soresu really did offer invincibility, it would be practiced by everybody, but it obviously doesn't.

As for Obi-Wan training Vader, that is equally irrelevant. Vader had to alter his fighting style after his transformation due to the physical limitations of his cybernetic armor, so he decided to utilize a more hybrid-lightsaber form, which Obi-Wan is not familiar with. Luke was able to mirror it, but that hardly gives him an edge over Vader.

And the idea of Plo or Kit not being anywhere near Luke or Ben Kenobi's level is preposterous. Kit Fisto was one of the best swordsmen in the Order, an even better duelist than Obi-Wan at the time of The Cestus Deception, handily defeated a number of Magnaguards in the DR trilogy, etc. He formed cyclones out of his blade, a speed feat exceeding anything accomplished by Kenobi and Luke. Plo has contended with Ventress, who is about even with Obi-Wan, and he has collapsed caves, a telekinetic feat well exceeding either Kenobi lifting and manipulating 8m ships or Luke supporting an AT-ST.

Ben Kenobi is inferior to either Plo or Kit, and Luke is above them but the margin is limited. Kit is faster than either Obi-Wan or Luke, and Plo is more powerful than either of them as well. Skill is in Luke's favor but by a small margin, whereas Ben Kenobi was a mere shadow of his former self (Fightsaber) and was slower and out of practice (Death Star, Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force), so he would certainly be beneath Plo or Kit.

When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, both combatants know they are but shadows of their former selves.

Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber

He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force.

Source: Death Star

A generation later, Obi-Wan Kenobi would face Darth Vader once again. While Vader wanted revenge, Obi-Wan was focused on buying time for his friends - including Luke Skywalker. Their duel was careful and measured compared to their previous meeting. Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice; Darth Vader - recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter - fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions. Ultimately, Obi-Wan deliberately dropped his defenses, and Darth Vader cut through him, but the Jedi Master mysteriously vanished into the Force.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Vader did improve considerably between ANH and ESB, but that hardly means he would overcome both Kit and Plo at once.

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TheCrewcabanger

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@ShootingNova Being considered invincible and actually being invincible are two different things. Masters of Soresu are considered invincible because of their defenses. Dooku employed the force against Obi every time they fought to get rid of him quickly, he didn't defeat him through light saber combat.

If Vader gets pushed far enough he may unleash a scream. And as for Vader creating his own hybrid style of fighting, this works in his advantage as well as Plo and Kit would have likely never fought against a style as refined as his before. Dooku even said that Anakin's use of Djem-So was undeniably the best he'd ever seen, I doubt he didn't incorporate that into his style, it even says that Vader uses hints of Soresu in his style as well. It's tough for me to say as I don't know much about Fisto or Plo-Koon, but I do know Vader and he has fought multiple enemies at once before. I vaguely remember a passage about him fighting 4 ancient sith at the same time (bad source or no?)

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generator2000

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@okayalright_44: Well, I thought this fight was only for comics and movie versions. If all of the EU counts, then I vouch for Vader though. Plo Koon wasn't especially strong and I think Darth Vader could take, Kit Fisto.

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juiceboks

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#29 juiceboks  Moderator

@thecrewcabanger: Dooku actually did best Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat..you must be thinking of Maul.

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@thecrewcabanger:

1. No, he didn't. He employed the Force once against Obi-Wan in RotS. In the comic, all Dooku did was knock him out with one kick. In AotC and TCW, Dooku also defeated Kenobi.

2. Vader has only unleashed Screams when certain words reach his heart. He has never employed Scream because of combative pressure, and I could just as easily bring up Plo utilizing Electric Judgment to get the better of Vader, though I doubt Vader would be hit considering Vader has a lightsaber to defend himself with.

Vader's form is primarily Djem So, but that hardly means anything. As for Vader fighting multiple ancient Sith, I can't remember that, only him fighting multiple Jedi, and he killed five before the other three were shot dead by Stormtroopers, to memory, and none of those characters have any feats.

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#31  Edited By TheCrewcabanger

I could be wrong about the ancient sith, but it somehow ties into Darth Maul being revived and fighting him as well, not to mention that Maul was amped for that fight and Vader won.

Back to Vader's feats though, he's been able to draw his lightsaber faster than the speed of thought, can move as a blur even with cybernetic hindrance which means Fisto's speed won't be able to catch him off guard though it does still give Fisto his only advantage over Vader (though that cyclone sounds super impressive!) His durability is insane as well, surviving explosions, lightsaber strikes (only thanks to his armor I'm sure) as well as the aforementioned cathedral he toppled onto himself. He's thrown his light saber around himself to shield from strikes.

Force wise, like I mentioned with the cathedral, he toppled it completely. He has thrown a large number of troops simultaneously, can take down colossal trees, and hurl ships around. Not to mention he can still employ force rage to amplify himself even further (maybe at the cost of some tactical ability though.)

I think Vader has fought and survived way tougher opponents than these two. Though I'd like to do more research on Plo-Koon.

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@dondave: You meant team 2?

I could be wrong about the ancient sith, but it somehow ties into Darth Maul being revived and fighting him as well, not to mention that Maul was amped for that fight and Vader won.

Back to Vader's feats though, he's been able to draw his lightsaber faster than the speed of thought, can move as a blur even with cybernetic hindrance which means Fisto's speed won't be able to catch him off guard though it does still give Fisto his only advantage over Vader (though that cyclone sounds super impressive!) His durability is insane as well, surviving explosions, lightsaber strikes (only thanks to his armor I'm sure) as well as the aforementioned cathedral he toppled onto himself. He's thrown his light saber around himself to shield from strikes.

Force wise, like I mentioned with the cathedral, he toppled it completely. He has thrown a large number of troops simultaneously, can take down colossal trees, and hurl ships around. Not to mention he can still employ force rage to amplify himself even further (maybe at the cost of some tactical ability though.)

I think Vader has fought and survived way tougher opponents than these two. Though I'd like to do more research on Plo-Koon.

1. Vader never fought the prophets. He only fought Maul, was about to lose, and then impaled himself in order to kill Maul.

2. Fisto has formed cyclones out of his blade and baffled Obi-Wan (by heavy implication, he is faster than AotC Obi-Wan, whereas TPM Kenobi alone is faster than Qui-Gon, who has formed shields out of his blade and disarmed beings faster than anybody could breathe). He has other showings as well but I wouldn't so much bother.

And yes, I'm well aware of Vader's feats since I'm arguing for him most of the time.

3. Yes, I'm aware of this. Vader has also Crushed gigantic droids, melted durasteel with his rage, cracked apartment walls, smashed two moderately large ships together, etc.

Kit has redirected multiple missiles and manipulated multiple vessels, and Plo Koon has collapsed caves.

4. No, he hasn't. Every single opponent he has directly beaten is featless or just about featless, and opponents of Plo and Kit's caliber, on their lonesome, have already challenged Vader well enough. Two would beat him.

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TheCrewcabanger

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@shootingnova: Hmm, so Vader basically needs a partner to win this. Vader + Darkside apprentice Luke?

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ShootingNova

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@shootingnova: whichever version of Luke that was under the tutelage of Vader.

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#38  Edited By TheCrewcabanger

So when he was apprenticing as a sith he was under the Emperor?

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ShootingNova

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#39  Edited By ShootingNova

@thecrewcabanger: He was never a Sith. During his brief time under Palpatine, he was pronounced a Dark Jedi. And that version outclasses anybody here.

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@shootingnova: i always just assumed they were one in the same ya know? Potato, Po-tah-doe hahaha

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#41  Edited By Erkan12
@juiceboks said:

@thecrewcabanger: Dooku actually did best Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat..you must be thinking of Maul.

Actually Maul did best Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat as well.

Loading Video...

@thecrewcabanger said:

Back to Vader's feats though, he's been able to draw his lightsaber faster than the speed of thought,

Faster than thought ? I don't even know what does it mean... Because no one has ever drawn his lightsaber at speed of thought...... I say that's an ultimate hyperbole, otherwise Darth Vader is faster than Darth Maul, Count Dooku or Kit Fisto because they never draw their lightsaber faster than thought.

Let me show you Vader's low end speed feats,

Extinction (2000)

Old An'ya Kuro is out maneuvering Vader with her agility ;

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Clone of TPM Maul vs. Vader ; Its from Resurrection (2001)

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Vader had hard time to tag Maul all along.

Purge: Seconds to Die (2009)

No Caption Provided

Sha Koon is out maneuvering Vader as well...

Purge The Tyrant's Fist 02 (2013)

No Caption Provided

Cho'Na Bene teleported behind Vader...

This is from Star Wars - Dark Times - A Spark Remains 005 (2013)

No Caption Provided

Kai Hudorra : You are slow Vader...

And Kai Hudorra is not exactly a good fighter either. Vader is still powerful, but speed is the worst property of his.

You can't see any low end feats like this from Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Kit Fisto or even Plo Koon.

Vader's speed is certainly a hindrance for his battles, he is not slow but saying ''fast'' for Vader, makes no sense to me.

@thecrewcabanger said:

I could be wrong about the ancient sith, but it somehow ties into Darth Maul being revived and fighting him as well, not to mention that Maul was amped for that fight and Vader won.

Can you show me which part of that comic says ''Darth Maul was amped?'' I've seen this misinformation many times, and I am asking which part that comics says this, but still I didn't get any answer for it.

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#42  Edited By ShootingNova

Maul beat Obi-Wan because he used Dun Moch. In every single other duel they have had, Maul never beat Obi-Wan in a showing of skill, which speaks for itself.

Maul being amped is actually not an unreasonable conclusion given that Maul's punches were breaking Vader's armor, IIRC, which would mean that Maul's punches are more potent than explosions and varying other things that Vader has withstood.

An'ya Kuro was not outmaneuvering Vader. She generated afterimages as she leapt to attack Vader, who parried her stroke.

As far as speed goes, Vader's cybernetics might make it difficult for him to move quickly, but his Force-aided augmentations make him quite fast

Vader has seemed to teleport as well:

Credit to Zapan87
Credit to Zapan87

Killing Roan Lands before Ferus Olin (a Jedi) could react, and was then stated to be faster than anybody Ferus had ever seen move (including Obi-Wan Kenobi, whom Ferus fought with for quite some time) except for Yoda:

"He is a former associate, yes, but --"

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.

Source: Last of the Jedi: Secret Weapon

Vader activates his lightsaber and moves it at imperceptible speeds:

Faster than a human eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber was up, activated and moving.

Source: Splinter of the Mind's Eye

Vader draws his lightsaber faster than thought (I have no idea why people seem to find this so difficult to accept, it always seems to be the public's vast overrating of the speed of thought):

The faint click of metallic weapons reached his ears. Faster than thought, Vader drew and ignited his lightsaber. In the same moment, small openings appeared in the walls and ceiling, and hidden blasters fired.

Source: Galaxy of Fear: Clones

Generating 5 afterimages:

No Caption Provided

Deflecting torrential volumes of blaster fire at point-blank range:

No Caption Provided

Virtually all the instances brought up regarding Vader's restricted movements are due to his limited agility, not speed. Vader is fairly impressive in the speed department (not quite as impressive as his strength or durability, of course) but sources usually depict agility as Vader's greatest weakness, less so than speed.

Oh, and if we would like to play the lowball game, Maul has his own low-showings, such as struggling to deflect blaster fire from pirates and getting shot in the leg, etc.

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@shootingnova:

Oh, and if we would like to play the lowball game, Maul has his own low-showings, such as struggling to deflect blaster fire from pirates and getting shot in the leg, etc.

Oh, you must be new here. That's not how it works. You're only allowed to lowball certain characters. You actually have to highball Maul and anything he's ever done.

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Erkan12

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#47  Edited By Erkan12

The same pirates are captured Count Dooku and Obi-Wan & Anakin, so...

I never denied Vader's speed feats, I know very well, and I never said he is slow either (even thought Kai Hudorra said it for real) he is just not at top tier 9 or 8 level in Star Wars universe in terms of speed. And high end feats don't diminish his low end speed feats, same low end speed feats are impossible to see for Maul or Dooku.

Vader should hardly tag Kit Fisto here, and putting Plo as a back-up gives the majority to the team even thought Vader has TK advantage, but again utilizing TK in mid-duel should also require speed, which Vader lacks too much (especially against Fisto).

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ShootingNova

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#48  Edited By ShootingNova

And they totally engaged in a similar battle scenario, didn't they?

No, it doesn't. Agility =/= speed.

even thought Kai Hudorra said it for real

And he can say all he likes. The fact that he ended up dying as a result of his failed Dun Moch tells enough about how worthless his opinion is.

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spartankobe

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#49  Edited By spartankobe
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okayalright_44

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