Baldy, considering both feats of both characters I'd say I'm completely right. Not to mention overall Vader isn't that impressive and never even shot force lightning in any film(which 6 of there there were) besides Gandalf would just come back and destroy Vader if it came to that. But I'm sure Gandalf the Grey could just damage his Helmet or respiration system and Game over for Vader.
Gandalf killed a Balrog...died and came back.I'm pretty confident he could handle a guy that relies on his respirator to live. Funny how people forget this...Anakin/Vader WOULD have died due to Obi Wan defeating him if not for Palptine saving him and DID die once he got shocked with force lightning to his systems killed him...all he was was a spirit which in SWU have shown to do nothing but communicate. In LOTRU, Gandalf is more or less an entity that cames back after death.
Baldy, considering both feats of both characters I'd say I'm completely right. Not to mention overall Vader isn't that impressive and never even shot force lightning in any film(which 6 of there there were) besides Gandalf would just come back and destroy Vader if it came to that. But I'm sure Gandalf the Grey could just damage his Helmet or respiration system and Game over for Vader.
Gandalf killed a Balrog...died and came back.I'm pretty confident he could handle a guy that relies on his respirator to live. Funny how people forget this...Anakin/Vader WOULD have died due to Obi Wan defeating him if not for Palptine saving him and DID die once he got shocked with force lightning to his systems killed him...all he was was a spirit which in SWU have shown to do nothing but communicate. In LOTRU, Gandalf is more or less an entity that cames back after death.
So you're focusing completely on the movies? We already established that Movie Vader loses against book Gandalf.
EU Vader however is MUCH more powerful than Movie Vader, or book Gandalf.
Generally speaking but being as how most people will judge by on screen versions I'm sure.
Book versions, I'm sure EU Vader would give normal Gandalf a hard time, not so much Gandalf the White as he is FAR more powerful then Gandalf the Grey and did far more in the books then in the movie. Gandalf in the books is more or less described as Gandalf the Entity and one of the more powerful characters in LOTRU.
@MasterJohn said:
Gandalf wins. Book Gandalf would stomp, I don't know about Movie gandalf, because they made him look weak and pathetic as Gandalf the White in the movies. But in the books, he's stronger then Vader in everyway.
Here's an example of what Gandalf could do to Vader. Gandalf could slam his staff down, and send a destructive blast. That alone would kill Vader. Or, Gandalf could send a blinding light towards Vader before he can choke him. Not only would that blind Vader, it would leave an opprotunity for Gandalf to shoot a ball of fire at Vader's chest, and have it explode. Thus, destroying his suit, and killing him. Gandalf could also call down Lightning upon Vader with his staff or sword.
So, Gandalf would probably use Blinding light first, then, call down lightning with his Glamdrig or his sword.
There it is, Gandalf is superior over Vader. Gandalf vs the SWTOR Emperor would be more interesting, due to the Emperor being able to sway his hand and suck the life out of someone.
Ta'ta.
This. This guy is correct, the book version of both characters are more powerful then movie versions but Gandalf is more or less an entity as described in previous notions. Which explains why he came back even after Death. Vader didn't come back...he would have died as Anakin/Vader technically if not for Sidious saving him.
Baldy, considering both feats of both characters I'd say I'm completely right. Not to mention overall Vader isn't that impressive and never even shot force lightning in any film(which 6 of there there were) besides Gandalf would just come back and destroy Vader if it came to that. But I'm sure Gandalf the Grey could just damage his Helmet or respiration system and Game over for Vader.
Gandalf killed a Balrog...died and came back.I'm pretty confident he could handle a guy that relies on his respirator to live. Funny how people forget this...Anakin/Vader WOULD have died due to Obi Wan defeating him if not for Palptine saving him and DID die once he got shocked with force lightning to his systems killed him...all he was was a spirit which in SWU have shown to do nothing but communicate. In LOTRU, Gandalf is more or less an entity that cames back after death.
Gandalf didn't just "come back" from death. His return required the direct intervention of Eru, who isn't in this battle. Vader could one-shot Gandalf before he even realizes the battle has even started.
What possible feat could lead you to believe that Gandalf stands the remotest chance against Vader?
@JamesKM716 said:
@Vaeternus said:
Baldy, considering both feats of both characters I'd say I'm completely right. Not to mention overall Vader isn't that impressive and never even shot force lightning in any film(which 6 of there there were) besides Gandalf would just come back and destroy Vader if it came to that. But I'm sure Gandalf the Grey could just damage his Helmet or respiration system and Game over for Vader.
Gandalf killed a Balrog...died and came back.I'm pretty confident he could handle a guy that relies on his respirator to live. Funny how people forget this...Anakin/Vader WOULD have died due to Obi Wan defeating him if not for Palptine saving him and DID die once he got shocked with force lightning to his systems killed him...all he was was a spirit which in SWU have shown to do nothing but communicate. In LOTRU, Gandalf is more or less an entity that cames back after death.
So you're focusing completely on the movies? We already established that Movie Vader loses against book Gandalf.
EU Vader however is MUCH more powerful than Movie Vader, or book Gandalf.
I'm not convinced by this. I think it would be a good fight and I can see it going both ways, as they both have abilities that would make life difficult for one another.
@Baldy: Well, it could be a closer battle. But i think book Gandalf has the edge over movie Vader. Movie Vader has never been shown to be able to Speedblitz. So that means that Gandalf could probably score a few hits, which would lead to his victory. IMO. 6/10 for Book Gandalf. maybe, possibly seven.
But i said that because earlier in the thread it was established that movie vader would lose. that's why i posted that.
Baldy lol yes, he came back from Death. Gandalf said himself, he "died" and that Eru sent him back. Regardless of Eru's involvement, he came back from death. I didn't see the Force sending Vader back...
lol Vader isn't one shotting Gandalf when inexperienced Luke took Vader by surprise and gave him a hard time in their first encounter, even tagging him with a shoulder swipe...yet Luke also never used the Force and/or was inexperienced with it at that time outside of a Force jump...so if Luke who managed against Vader at least in his first encounter could take Vader, I'm pretty sure Gandalf the Grey could take Vader out swiftly. All he has to do is damage his mechanical system and Vader dies. There's no explanation to how he avoids this.
Movie versions of both characters weren't that impressive but the fact remains Gandalf showed better feats coming back from Death and defeating a Balrog, reversing Saruman's spell on the King. Book versions may be closer but still going with Gandalf considering his origins and he's FAR more powerful in the book then showed in the movies.
What exactly is Vader's best feat seriously? Because in the movies he was far from impressive.
@Baldy: The one about the hammer happened, but is non-cannon.
Hammer?
Im stupid.
I meant the one about the smashing the ground with his staff.
It happened in an epic rap battle......
Oh right. Yeah I can't think of a canon instance in which this has happened. The closest thing that I can think of is this...
At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness. - Gandalf breaking Durin's bridge.
I wouldn't really describe this as a destructive blast as such, and more of a very specific example of smiting a very narrow bridge. Notice that Gandalf broke his staff in the process, so it's probably the limit of his abilities, and due to the nature of Durin's bridge, isn't that impressive.
@Baldy: The one about the hammer happened, but is non-cannon.
Hammer?
Im stupid.
I meant the one about the smashing the ground with his staff.
It happened in an epic rap battle......
Oh right. Yeah I can't think of a canon instance in which this has happened. The closest thing that I can think of is this...
At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness. - Gandalf breaking Durin's bridge.
I wouldn't really describe this as a destructive blast as such, and more of a very specific example of smiting a very narrow bridge. Notice that Gandalf broke his staff in the process, so it's probably the limit of his abilities, and due to the nature of Durin's bridge, isn't that impressive.
The only chance Gandalf has against EU Vader is to turn into his full maia form (and even then it is not stated how powerful that would be). Most likely Vader wins.
On another note, that was Gandalf the Grey, not the white. And vader used FORCE LIGHTNING... That is non-canon.
As stated previously, Vader now has the Kaiburr Crystal which allowed him to use various force powers, even Sith lightning despite him having a part robot body or if he had any artifact, amulet etc. This boosted his power up by a lot. He also moves at half light speed, and is totally immune to lightning.
He also destroyed 4 Jedi's and 2 grand master Jedi's who were planning to ambush him.
@girugamesh: You claim BS without even providing an argument. Vader has faced far more powerful Lightning, from Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist.
I love how you consider this to be the most powerful Force Lightning:
Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks.
The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back at its source.
It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor.
-- Taken from The Old Republic: Revan
This is no better Force Lightning:
Skip to 2:18
So his basic Lightning can be deflected by a lightsaber.
As for his Force Storm (Lightning), I would love to see how he can use it before Vader blitzes him:
"He is a former associate, yes, but --"
It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.
The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.
-- Taken from Star Wars: Last of the Jedi: Secret Weapon (book no. 7, pg. 126)
The time the Emperor takes for him to use a Force Storm would be enough for Vader to kill him.
Revan's reaction feats (to blaster bolts and so on) are similar to Ferus's, in fact, and the Emperor's are in turn similar to Vader's. So there's a pretty high chance Vader could simply catch him off-guard with his superior speed. Again, there's a chance that the Emperor can react, but can't actually physically respond. It might be possible for him to mentally respond, however.
Again, if the Emperor cannot react to Vader, then he cannot use his Mind-domination powers. If he can, then he wins.
@girugamesh:You claim BS without even providing an argument. Vader has faced far more powerful Lightning, from Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist.
I love how you consider this to be the most powerful Force Lightning:
Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks.
The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back at its source.
It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor.
-- Taken from The Old Republic: Revan
This is no better Force Lightning:
Skip to 2:18
So his basic Lightning can be deflected by a lightsaber.
As for his Force Storm (Lightning), I would love to see how he can use it before Vader blitzes him:
"He is a former associate, yes, but --"
It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.
The lightsaber hadn't been there, and then it was, and the lightsaber was a blur. Vader moved without seeming to move, and the lightsaber sliced into Roan, straight into his chest. Straight into his heart.
-- Taken from Star Wars: Last of the Jedi: Secret Weapon (book no. 7, pg. 126)
Yes, that was Ferus Olin, but the Emperor has absolutely no speed feats or reaction feats. Revan does not either, so the Emperor being able to fight with Revan is not a feat. Until you can present evidence the Emperor can react any better than Olin, then Vader can blitz him before he can react.
Perhaps the Emperor would be able to "react", but he can't do anything about it before Vader kills him, because his saber speed is faster than what I've seen Vitiate do.
Again, the Emperor is not using mind-domination unless he can react in the first place.
@Baldy: Well, it could be a closer battle. But i think book Gandalf has the edge over movie Vader. Movie Vader has never been shown to be able to Speedblitz. So that means that Gandalf could probably score a few hits, which would lead to his victory. IMO. 6/10 for Book Gandalf. maybe, possibly seven.
But i said that because earlier in the thread it was established that movie vader would lose. that's why i posted that.
Vader's fastest feat in the movies that I can remember was at Bespin, when he blocked a blaster bolt with his hand. While this is impressive, Gandalf has speed feats at a similar level. I think Gandalf's biggest headaches against movie Vader would be three fold..
He outclasses Gandalf in close combat, largely because of his light saber. None of Gandalf's weapons have durability feats that would suggest that they could survive a light saber attack.
His force grip could end things quickly.
His telekinesis could prove problematic for the wizard.
Frankly, I think the fight would come down to morals. With morals on I see Vader taking 6-7/10, while with morals off I see Gandalf taking 7-8/10.
@Vaeternus said:
Baldy lol yes, he came back from Death. Gandalf said himself, he "died" and that Eru sent him back. Regardless of Eru's involvement, he came back from death. I didn't see the Force sending Vader back...
I don't see what your point is. Coming back from death is not a feat for Gandalf. He didn't do it, and had nothing to do with the process. It required the direct intervention of a near omnipotent being who isn't in this fight.
It would be like showing a story in which Superman picks up a person in Europe and whisking them off to China in a fraction of a second, and then trying to claim that was a speed feat for the person, even though they had nothing to do with it.
lol Vader isn't one shotting Gandalf when inexperienced Luke took Vader by surprise and gave him a hard time in their first encounter, even tagging him with a shoulder swipe...yet Luke also never used the Force and/or was inexperienced with it at that time outside of a Force jump...
Yet again you show little knowledge of either character. Gandalf doesn't have the durability to survive any of EU Vader's force attacks and a simple light saber strike would cut him in two.
Additionally, Darth Vader absolutely wreaked Luke in their first fight, and he wasn't even trying. His goal wasn't to kill Luke, it was to turn him to the Darkside so that they could over throw the Emperor. The best Luke managed to do was to clip his armor when he was fighting all out, while the whole time Vader was toying with him. You're also discounting a very important advantage that Luke has over Vader... he is Vader's son, and Vader doesn't want to kill him!
These events also happened three years after the battle of Yavin, and Luke has also had some training with Yoda. So it's not like he's completely new to the force.
so if Luke who managed against Vader at least in his first encounter could take Vader, I'm pretty sure Gandalf the Grey could take Vader out swiftly. All he has to do is damage his mechanical system and Vader dies. There's no explanation to how he avoids this.
You're underestimating the protection afforded to Vader by his armor. He can tank multiple light saber strikes before going down, including having a light saber thrown at his face. He's also able to continue fighting while significantly damaged.
Gallery
Movie versions of both characters weren't that impressive but the fact remains Gandalf showed better feats coming back from Death and defeating a Balrog, reversing Saruman's spell on the King. Book versions may be closer but still going with Gandalf considering his origins and he's FAR more powerful in the book then showed in the movies. What exactly is Vader's best feat seriously? Because in the movies he was far from impressive.
He was killed fighting the Balrog and as I've previously told you, coming back from death isn't a feat for Gandalf.
Baldy, first of all it is a feat for Gandalf...in this case over Vader because when Vader died, he statyed dead. Unlike Gandalf who again if you read the books is said to be more or less an entity, it's one reason why he's as old as he is...and Eru is the God of LOTR, so that goes without saying. Either way, Gandalf came back. That's my point. If he had like stayed dead, then I'd say it's not worth mentioning but he came back so worth mentioning. Your Superman example is not the same as what I'm saying...don't know why that was even mentioned.
You're the one who doesn't seem to have knowledge of LOTR in general, for one Vader isn't that powerful when it comes to Sith's. There's ones far more powerful. Technically he's not even a full Sith since he flip flops from good to evil back to good. Secondly, Vader book writing is very inconsistent at times being as how in the movies which is the real canon, he dies fast with hardly any lightning on him to his systems. Yet in the comics, he has survived it. Inconsistent much? Besides, the OP clearly used the movie versions here. NOT book versions of either character, if you're using that then I'll say well Gandalf the White is uber powerful and FAR more impresive in the books then the movies and wastes Vader.
Yes, I've seen and have the movies I know he wanted him with him but he also said "I'll kill you if you don't join me" too if you saw the last film...Yeah, he wasn't trying yet he still underestimated Luke which he admits saying "Obi-wan taught you well, the force is strong in this one" Yet, Luke inexperience still tagged his shoulder...obviously when Vader used the force he was toying with him.
So let me get this straight you're trying to use a book PIS feat with light Saber tossed in his face(which realistically would kill him) yet Luke chops his wrist off and he gets defeated and Luke could have killed him? Hmmm..and I'm not referring to his armor, I referred to his respiratory mechanical system. You're underestimating Gandalf's power which could definitely harm Vader's armor much less his systems keeping him alive at least...
Actually, Gandalf died from exhaustion AFTER he killed the Balrog...you saying Balrog killed Gandalf would implie the Balrog would have stabbed him at the same time when Gandalf killed the Balrog(clearly not what happened) then came back from Death. Eru sent him back, more powerful...That feat is somewhat impressive for a book Vader, but overall again since this is clearly using movie versions Gandalf will win here. Book versions maybe more closer, but keep in mind Gandalf is also far more impressive in the books then film.
@MasterJohn said:
This is why I won't bring back 1 or 2 year old threads, ever.
I hear ya, I agree with your posts. Sadly, not a lot of people know that much about LOTR or the books where Gandalf is far stronger then the movie versions.
Baldy, first of all it is a feat for Gandalf...in this case over Vader because when Vader died, he statyed dead. Unlike Gandalf who again if you read the books is said to be more or less an entity, it's one reason why he's as old as he is...and Eru is the God of LOTR, so that goes without saying. Either way, Gandalf came back. That's my point. If he had like stayed dead, then I'd say it's not worth mentioning but he came back so worth mentioning. Your Superman example is not the same as what I'm saying...don't know why that was even mentioned.
Are you trolling? Gandalf's coming back to life had nothing to do with Gandalf. Eru did that. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this.
Gandalf died. Eru healed him.
Not a feat for Gandalf.
You're the one who doesn't seem to have knowledge of LOTR in general, for one Vader isn't that powerful when it comes to Sith's. There's ones far more powerful. Technically he's not even a full Sith since he flip flops from good to evil back to good. Secondly, Vader book writing is very inconsistent at times being as how in the movies which is the real canon, he dies fast with hardly any lightning on him to his systems. Yet in the comics, he has survived it. Inconsistent much? Besides, the OP clearly used the movie versions here. NOT book versions of either character, if you're using that then I'll say well Gandalf the White is uber powerful and FAR more impresive in the books then the movies and wastes Vader.
OP doesn't specify movie versions. Vader is one of the most powerful sith and inconsistencies are irrelevant, we don't define characters by low-showings. Gandalf the White is not uber powerful. Feel free to actually posts feats though.
Yes, I've seen and have the movies I know he wanted him with him but he also said "I'll kill you if you don't join me" too if you saw the last film...Yeah, he wasn't trying yet he still underestimated Luke which he admits saying "Obi-wan taught you well, the force is strong in this one" Yet, Luke inexperience still tagged his shoulder...obviously when Vader used the force he was toying with him.
Vader was toying with him the whole time and he still stomp the crud out of him. One lucky hit that did nothing to Vader is meaningless.
So let me get this straight you're trying to use a book PIS feat with light Saber tossed in his face(which realistically would kill him) yet Luke chops his wrist off and he gets defeated and Luke could have killed him? Hmmm..and I'm not referring to his armor, I referred to his respiratory mechanical system. You're underestimating Gandalf's power which could definitely harm Vader's armor much less his systems keeping him alive at least...
It's not PIS if it's consistent. Vader has taken multiple light saber hits in multiple fights and not been killed by damage to his armor. In fact his armor has been absolutely obliterated in the past without it killing him. I even posted a scan of him taking an explosive directly to his life support system, what more could you possibly want?
Post a feat of Gandalf attacking with sufficient power to take out Vader.
Actually, Gandalf died from exhaustion AFTER he killed the Balrog...you saying Balrog killed Gandalf would implie the Balrog would have stabbed him at the same time when Gandalf killed the Balrog(clearly not what happened) then came back from Death. Eru sent him back, more powerful...That feat is somewhat impressive for a book Vader, but overall again since this is clearly using movie versions Gandalf will win here. Book versions maybe more closer, but keep in mind Gandalf is also far more impressive in the books then film.
This is what the book says about Gandalf's death..
I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. - Gandalf talking about his death.
The cause of death is not specified, so we need to use what we know to fill in the gaps. We know that Gandalf was in battle, and that he was burned and wounded, we also know that Narya protects him from exhaustion. Thus the most logical conclusion is that he died from his wounds. Unfortunately, Gandalf doesn't tell us anything about what happened beyond what bards might sing about it, so beyond his death it's impossible to tell what happened or how the Balrog was defeated.
We arn't clearly using movie versions, if we were it would be much closer as Vader's best feats come from the expanded universe. Additionally, while Gandalf is more powerful in the book, the difference isn't actually that big, he even showed abilities in the movie that he didn't have in the book.
Baldy, first of all it is a feat for Gandalf...in this case over Vader because when Vader died, he statyed dead. Unlike Gandalf who again if you read the books is said to be more or less an entity, it's one reason why he's as old as he is...and Eru is the God of LOTR, so that goes without saying. Either way, Gandalf came back. That's my point. If he had like stayed dead, then I'd say it's not worth mentioning but he came back so worth mentioning. Your Superman example is not the same as what I'm saying...don't know why that was even mentioned.
You're the one who doesn't seem to have knowledge of LOTR in general, for one Vader isn't that powerful when it comes to Sith's. There's ones far more powerful. Technically he's not even a full Sith since he flip flops from good to evil back to good. Secondly, Vader book writing is very inconsistent at times being as how in the movies which is the real canon, he dies fast with hardly any lightning on him to his systems. Yet in the comics, he has survived it. Inconsistent much? Besides, the OP clearly used the movie versions here. NOT book versions of either character, if you're using that then I'll say well Gandalf the White is uber powerful and FAR more impresive in the books then the movies and wastes Vader.
Yes, I've seen and have the movies I know he wanted him with him but he also said "I'll kill you if you don't join me" too if you saw the last film...Yeah, he wasn't trying yet he still underestimated Luke which he admits saying "Obi-wan taught you well, the force is strong in this one" Yet, Luke inexperience still tagged his shoulder...obviously when Vader used the force he was toying with him.
So let me get this straight you're trying to use a book PIS feat with light Saber tossed in his face(which realistically would kill him) yet Luke chops his wrist off and he gets defeated and Luke could have killed him? Hmmm..and I'm not referring to his armor, I referred to his respiratory mechanical system. You're underestimating Gandalf's power which could definitely harm Vader's armor much less his systems keeping him alive at least...
Actually, Gandalf died from exhaustion AFTER he killed the Balrog...you saying Balrog killed Gandalf would implie the Balrog would have stabbed him at the same time when Gandalf killed the Balrog(clearly not what happened) then came back from Death. Eru sent him back, more powerful...That feat is somewhat impressive for a book Vader, but overall again since this is clearly using movie versions Gandalf will win here. Book versions maybe more closer, but keep in mind Gandalf is also far more impressive in the books then film.
@MasterJohn said:
This is why I won't bring back 1 or 2 year old threads, ever.
I hear ya, I agree with your posts. Sadly, not a lot of people know that much about LOTR or the books where Gandalf is far stronger then the movie versions.
Threads like this blow my mind. People, go read all the LOTR books( Not just the trilogy, read the Hobbit and the Silmarillion too). The movies are horribly botched and makes Gandalf look like a bozo.
Is this a serious question? Do you think there is really a fair fight between (arguably) the strongest Jedi/Sith ever, vs an immortal godling, who was present at the creation of the the world, and is able to kill a "demon" made entirely of fire and shadow? It's like the classic Gandulf vs Dumbledore fight, no matter how fantastically gifted Dumbledore is, he is still a mortal human.
Is this a serious question? Do you think there is really a fair fight between (arguably) the strongest Jedi/Sith ever, vs an immortal godling, who was present at the creation of the the world, and is able to kill a "demon" made entirely of fire and shadow? It's like the classic Gandulf vs Dumbledore fight, no matter how fantastically gifted Dumbledore is, he is still a mortal human.
Is this a serious question? Do you think there is really a fair fight between (arguably) the strongest Jedi/Sith ever, vs an immortal godling, who was present at the creation of the the world, and is able to kill a "demon" made entirely of fire and shadow? It's like the classic Gandulf vs Dumbledore fight, no matter how fantastically gifted Dumbledore is, he is still a mortal human.
This is the stuff that constantly annoys me about LoTR debates. Constant and pointless exaggeration over things that have long been proven to be inaccurate.
How is Gandalf a 'godling'? He's far less powerful than Sauron, and Sauron was called by Tolkien himself, no less, a minor spirit.
You're also overestimating the Balrog, his fire was put out by falling into some water, man that sounds scary tough. Water put him out. Hold up while I hide under my bed. Hell... Gothmog, the 'Lord of the Balrogs' was killed by a Noldorian elf by the name of Ecthelion.
Taken from the LOTR wiki "The Maiar were those spirits which descended to Arda to help the Valartoshape the World." Regardless, Vader, who was quickly killed by lightning doesn't have much of a chance. I'm not saying Vader wasn't powerful, but it isn't even the same class. And godling was in quotation, because the Valar, and the Maiar were occasionally viewed as such by men.
Is this a serious question? Do you think there is really a fair fight between (arguably) the strongest Jedi/Sith ever, vs an immortal godling, who was present at the creation of the the world, and is able to kill a "demon" made entirely of fire and shadow? It's like the classic Gandulf vs Dumbledore fight, no matter how fantastically gifted Dumbledore is, he is still a mortal human.
Yes, Vader is the most powerful Jedi/Sith. Indeed.
The most powerful Jedi of all time is Luke Skywalker:
Even Luke's strength in the Force cannot help. The most powerful Jedi Master in the galaxy can only stand by and watch his wife die.
--Taken from The New Jedi Order Sourcebook
And Yoda is the most powerful Jedi up to his time:
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
And the most powerful Sith ever is Palpatine:
Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.
--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
--Taken from The New Essential Chronology
So it cannot be debated.
And that is not the sole error in your post. Gandalf is in no way a "godling". Sauron, who is much more powerful than Gandalf, is, by Tolkien's words, a lesser angelic spirit. And even so, you have not presented sufficient feats to prove Gandalf can even react to Vader before being slain.
As @Baldy mentioned, you have also overrated the Balrog.
Is this a serious question? Do you think there is really a fair fight between (arguably) the strongest Jedi/Sith ever, vs an immortal godling, who was present at the creation of the the world, and is able to kill a "demon" made entirely of fire and shadow? It's like the classic Gandulf vs Dumbledore fight, no matter how fantastically gifted Dumbledore is, he is still a mortal human.
Yes, Vader is the most powerful Jedi/Sith. Indeed.
The most powerful Jedi of all time is Luke Skywalker:
Even Luke's strength in the Force cannot help. The most powerful Jedi Master in the galaxy can only stand by and watch his wife die.
--Taken from The New Jedi Order Sourcebook
And Yoda is the most powerful Jedi up to his time:
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
And the most powerful Sith ever is Palpatine:
Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.
--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
--Taken from The New Essential Chronology
So it cannot be debated.
And that is not the sole error in your post. Gandalf is in no way a "godling". Sauron, who is much more powerful than Gandalf, is, by Tolkien's words, a lesser angelic spirit. And even so, you have not presented sufficient feats to prove Gandalf can even react to Vader before being slain.
As @Baldy mentioned, you have also overrated the Balrog.
And godling was in quotation, because the Valar, and the Maiar were occasionally viewed as such by men.
What's your point? Some people think the earth is hollow. That doesn't make it true.
@hortoncrow said:
What is there to react to? What "proof" is there that force lighting, or lightsabers could kill Gandulf?
Are you trolling? Gandalf was burned by fire. He has no feats to suggest that he would be able to tank a light saber blow. Even dragons in LoTR who are supposed to be among the toughest things in that universe are harmed by non-magical axes.
No, I'm not trolling. I also not saying he was actually a godling. Nor am I trying to say Vader isn't powerful. I'm just trying to say that in the Canon material, Vader wasn't ever particularly fast, not did he very use any "force power" besides force choke. Canon Gandulf was written in a book, by an author for the fifties, who wasn't especially concerned with specif detail about the abilities of the Istari. I was merely extrapolating or the outcome of a battle between a gifted mortal, and an immortal spirit.
No, I'm not trolling. I also not saying he was actually a godling. Nor am I trying to say Vader isn't powerful. I'm just trying to say that in the Canon material, Vader wasn't ever particularly fast, not did he very use any "force power" besides force choke. Canon Gandulf was written in a book, by an author for the fifties, who wasn't especially concerned with specif detail about the abilities of the Istari. I was merely extrapolating or the outcome of a battle between a gifted mortal, and an immortal spirit.
Throwing around words like 'mortal' and 'spirit' is meaningless. I could name tons of mortals that would beat the snot out of Gandalf.
What is there to react to? What "proof" is there that force lighting, or lightsabers could kill Gandulf?
Vader's lightsabers. Vader can slice Gandalf immediately. Gandalf being unable to react makes this a stomp.
@hortoncrow said:
No, I'm not trolling. I also not saying he was actually a godling. Nor am I trying to say Vader isn't powerful. I'm just trying to say that in the Canon material, Vader wasn't ever particularly fast, not did he very use any "force power" besides force choke. Canon Gandulf was written in a book, by an author for the fifties, who wasn't especially concerned with specif detail about the abilities of the Istari. I was merely extrapolating or the outcome of a battle between a gifted mortal, and an immortal spirit.
Is this a serious question? Do you think there is really a fair fight between (arguably) the strongest Jedi/Sith ever, vs an immortal godling, who was present at the creation of the the world, and is able to kill a "demon" made entirely of fire and shadow? It's like the classic Gandulf vs Dumbledore fight, no matter how fantastically gifted Dumbledore is, he is still a mortal human.
Yes, Vader is the most powerful Jedi/Sith. Indeed.
The most powerful Jedi of all time is Luke Skywalker:
Even Luke's strength in the Force cannot help. The most powerful Jedi Master in the galaxy can only stand by and watch his wife die.
--Taken from The New Jedi Order Sourcebook
And Yoda is the most powerful Jedi up to his time:
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
And the most powerful Sith ever is Palpatine:
Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.
--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
--Taken from The New Essential Chronology
So it cannot be debated.
And that is not the sole error in your post. Gandalf is in no way a "godling". Sauron, who is much more powerful than Gandalf, is, by Tolkien's words, a lesser angelic spirit. And even so, you have not presented sufficient feats to prove Gandalf can even react to Vader before being slain.
As @Baldy mentioned, you have also overrated the Balrog.
Vader is the 3rd greatest Sith. The SWTOR emperor is the greatest sith, being able to sway his hands and suck all the life out of a planet. Luke is the top greatest Jedi, however Yoda is the second. You CAN NOT forget about Yoda, he would defeat Vader.
Anyway, Vader is the 3rd best in my opinion. You can not forget about Yoda.
Vader is the 3rd greatest Sith. The SWTOR emperor is the greatest sith, being able to sway his hands and suck all the life out of a planet. Luke is the top greatest Jedi, however Yoda is the second. You CAN NOT forget about Yoda, he would defeat Vader.
Anyway, Vader is the 3rd best in my opinion. You can not forget about Yoda.
Sidious is the most powerful sith.
@MasterJohn said:
I bet @ShootingNova and @Baldy would say Darkseid would lose against Palpatine. This is RIDICULOUS!
I see. Your lack of a plausible argument for Gandalf has left you to resort to pointless strawmen. How about instead of just complaining, post some actual quotes from the books that show Gandalf standing the remotest chance against someone that could kill him before he could blink.
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