Darth Vader vs Exar Kun

Battlefield: Inside of a Star Destroyer. (The place where Vader and Sidious look out the window).  

No prep.  

No morals.  

Both have their weapon.  

Death for the win. 

Exar is at a severe disadvantage against an opponent with the particular strengths Vader possesses. Vader is immune to Force Drain, as per his learning a defense against that effect from the spirit/recording of Ulic Qel-Droma so that he could destroy the Dark Reaper during the Clone Wars. Exar's supreme feat with Drain was killing thousands of Massassi with it, but he accomplished this within the parameters of his dark side-cultivated temples which were designed to focus his powers. This is only roughly equal to the Dark Reaper, which could siphon the energies of entire armies, and Anakin was unaffected by that. Vader's stated and tested invulnerability against Drain renders that power moot. Exar's Force Blast was damaging enough to kill Massassi, kill a wyrm, and ruin portions of the Massassi Temple walls. However, he did this following what appeared to be a "charging," so to speak, of his gauntlets within pillars of energy. Later on, when he traveled to the Empress Teta system to confront Ulic and Aleema Keto, Exar's Blast failed to kill Aleema; it only jolted her into unconsciousness despite his professed intention to kill her and Ulic. So it stands to question whether his Force Blast is as powerful as was previously portrayed, especially on account of the aforementioned enhancing that the gauntlets seemed to receive. With that said, Vader is durable enough to tank explosions without much trouble, withstand electricity, withstand blaster bolts, withstand being Force Pushed through rubble, withstand impact force sufficient to slam him through walls, and has survived other effects, such as flamethrowers and buildings collapsing on him. Not only is it suspect whether Kun's Blast is sufficient to wreck temple walls, it may not be enough to drop Vader (in one shot at least) even if it did. It seems as if his Blast is only powerful enough to KO a normal human, and that would definitely not stop Vader. 
 
Exar's own TK is rather useless as well. His best showing was easily hurling back Sylvar, which is decent but hardly incredible. Vader has thrown around ships, crumbled cathedrals, crushed massive droids, knocked over titanic trees, used Lightsaber Throw to spin his blade around his body, pushed people across alleyways, torn down structures, ripped apart platforms, redirected projectiles, etc. Kun is immensely outclassed in telekinetic proficiency. TP would never become a factor in this. Though Kun does have more impressive showings in that regard (though the full circumstances of his sorcery-related TP showings have never been disclosed), but this is irrelevant because to its combat-disuse. Exar's Force Scream never engendered much noticeable wreckage either. It was sensed by Vodo, who was searching the Force for Exar, but its tangible results were minimal. Even then, Scream is involuntary, and Vader evinced a more powerful Scream when he awoke in RotS, years before reaching the height of his abilities. Of course, Essence Transfer is of no use to Kun without his ritual; so there is no need to discuss that. Exar's speed is the generic afterimage-related feats. Vader has achieved that and more. Kun has no other especially notable physical feats, aside from possibly smashing a holocron in his hand (though this was part of a ceremony; so it may not have been purely a physical showing). Vader, on the other hand, has slammed people onto the ground so hard the stone cracked beneath them, remained unmoved by the weight of a dozen stormtroopers, torn steel doors off ships, broken nets, collapsed crystalline pillars, broken binders, etc. Vader is obviously more physically dominating. 
 
Overall, just about every Force ability at Exar's disposal, Vader can either match or circumvent completely. This isn't so much due to a power disparity as much as Exar simply being unfortunate enough to fight an opponent like Vader who just possesses the right tools to deal with him on almost every front. In return, on top of his telekinetic powers, Vader has Dun Moch, Alter Environment (which he has utilized to control winds during his duel with Luke on Bespin), Deflection, Barrier, etc. Really, Vader has the edge in Force-generated skills. 
 
On combat skill, really Vader supersedes Exar here as well. Kun has good dueling feats, such as beating Crado, beating Sylvar, beating Vodo twice, and stalemating Ulic. However, all of Kun's skill showings, except for his fight with Ulic, were against featless characters, and his victories over Vodo were both a consequence of breaking through Vodo's staff, not necessarily outskilling him (not that I think Kun couldn't have outfought Vodo, but he never won over Vodo by virtue of being more skilled), not to mention the Jedi at the time being unaccustomed to engaging twin-bladed weapons. Whereas, Vader has fought equally with an amped Maul, fought equally with Obi-Wan, beat Roan Shryne, beat Celeste Morne, beat the Dark Woman, and beat five Jedi simultaneously (more than once), among other showings, and all of that was done before Vader reached his peak. Vader's skills increased dramatically following ANH, and he dueled as a perfect equal with Luke in RotJ. Not that the difference is huge, but Vader should be the more adept swordsman. His feats and his technical knowledge and adjusted lightsaber form just play it out. 
 
As a whole, I would favor Vader. He is a better swordsman, and he has the right combination of powers to counter Exar's. It would be a good fight every time, but Vader should win around 8/10.

Excellent reasoning.

This can go either way. I am assuming Kun has his relics and trinkets?

In terms of saber combat, Exar Kun has defeated Vodo-Siosk Baas (although Kun had the element of surprise with his double-bladed lightsaber, a weapon Baas never faced before), stalemated Ood Bnar, and stalemated Ulic Qel-Droma (though it should be noted Kun is now much more powerful than Qel-Droma, as this battle was before Kun used his saberstaff and he has improved significantly since then). Vader is significantly superior to Ferus Olin, contended with An'ya Kuro, killed five out of eight Jedi that ambushed him on Kessel, overwhelmed Marek, was an equal to RotJ Luke in duelling, easily overpowered Kento Marek, and so on. Vader has far more saber feats, but even so, Kun's feats do have significant value, and they are near-equals in saber combat.

As for Force Power, with the talismans and relics, Kun has generated Force Blasts capable of killing Sithspawn in one hit, crumble stone walls, sent Aleema Keto flying across a room, killed Freedon Nadd's spirit, and so on. Kun killing a Sith Wyrm is impressive as well. Kun has also placed everybody in the Senate in stasis simultaneously. Vader has collapsed buildings, utilized Choke over extremely long distances, used Tutaminis to absorb blaster bolts with his bare hands, has thrown objects around with mere gestures, has proficiency with Kinetite and Saber Throw, and much, much more I am just... too lazy to say. Regardless of who wins, they are still very close in this regard also.

We can discuss who wins later. I'm too lazy and tired now LOL.

Vader Wins. The first post is the epitome of true character knowledge.

stalemated Ood Bnar

Kun's feats do have significant value, and they are near-equals in saber combat.

On combat skill, really Vader supersedes Exar here as well. Kun has good dueling feats, such as beating Crado, beating Sylvar, beating Vodo twice, and stalemating Exar. However, all of Kun's skill showings, except for his fight with Ulic, were against featless characters, and his victories over Vodo were both a consequence of breaking through Vodo's staff, not necessarily outskilling him (not that I think Kun couldn't have outfought Vodo, but he never won over Vodo by virtue of being more skilled), not to mention the Jedi at the time being unaccustomed to engaging twin-bladed weapons. Whereas, Vader has fought equally with an amped Maul, fought equally with Obi-Wan, beat Roan Shryne, beat Celeste Morne, beat the Dark Woman, and beat five Jedi simultaneously (more than once), among other showings, and all of that was done before Vader reached his peak. Vader's skills increased dramatically following ANH, and he dueled as a perfect equal with Luke in RotJ. Not that the difference is huge, but Vader should be the more adept swordsman. His feats and his technical knowledge and adjusted lightsaber form just play it out.

As for Force Power, with the talismans and relics, Kun has generated Force Blasts capable of killing Sithspawn in one hit, crumble stone walls, sent Aleema Keto flying across a room, killed Freedon Nadd's spirit, and so on.

Exar's Force Blast was damaging enough to kill Massassi, kill a wyrm, and ruin portions of the Massassi Temple walls. However, he did this following what appeared to be a "charging," so to speak, of his gauntlets within pillars of energy. Later on, when he traveled to the Empress Teta system to confront Ulic and Aleema Keto, Exar's Blast failed to kill Aleema; it only jolted her into unconsciousness despite his professed intention to kill her and Ulic. So it stands to question whether his Force Blast is as powerful as was previously portrayed, especially on account of the aforementioned enhancing that the gauntlets seemed to receive. With that said, Vader is durable enough to tank explosions without much trouble, withstand electricity, withstand blaster bolts, withstand being Force Pushed through rubble, withstand impact force sufficient to slam him through walls, and has survived other effects, such as flamethrowers and buildings collapsing on him. Not only is it suspect whether Kun's Blast is sufficient to wreck temple walls, it may not be enough to drop Vader (in one shot at least) even if it did. It seems as if his Blast is only powerful enough to KO a normal human, and that would definitely not stop Vader. 

Kun has also placed everybody in the Senate in stasis simultaneously.

TP would never become a factor in this. Though Kun does have more impressive showings in that regard (though the full circumstances of his sorcery-related TP showings have never been disclosed), but this is irrelevant because to its combat-disuse.

has proficiency with Kinetite

@Silver2467: And yet you say it was debatable whether Exar or Vader was superior in the PM? Kun has also owned Odan-Urr with it, yes, I know about how old and weak Odan-Urr was at that point....

Personally, I see Vader winning 7/10.

@Silver2467 said:

On combat skill, really Vader supersedes Exar here as well. Kun has good dueling feats, such as beating Crado, beating Sylvar, beating Vodo twice, and stalemating Exar.

LOL. I assume you mean Ulic Qel-Droma?

@Silver2467: And yet you say it was debatable whether Exar or Vader was superior in the PM?

Overall, just about every Force ability at Exar's disposal, Vader can either match or circumvent completely. This isn't so much due to a power disparity as much as Exar simply being unfortunate enough to fight an opponent like Vader who just possesses the right tools to deal with him on almost every front. In return, on top of his telekinetic powers, Vader has Dun Moch, Alter Environment (which he has utilized to control winds during his duel with Luke on Bespin), Deflection, Barrier, etc. Really, Vader has the edge in Force-generated skills.

Kun has also owned Odan-Urr with it, yes, I know about how old and weak Odan-Urr was at that point....

@Silver2467 said:

On combat skill, really Vader supersedes Exar here as well. Kun has good dueling feats, such as beating Crado, beating Sylvar, beating Vodo twice, and stalemating Exar.

LOL. I assume you mean Ulic Qel-Droma?

@Silver2467 said:

Did you read my post?

I said in the PM. Not here. If I recall your PM post correctly....

I said in the PM. Not here. If I recall your PM post correctly....

Overall, just about every Force ability at Exar's disposal, Vader can either match or circumvent completely. This isn't so much due to a power disparity as much as Exar simply being unfortunate enough to fight an opponent like Vader who just possesses the right tools to deal with him on almost every front. In return, on top of his telekinetic powers, Vader has Dun Moch, Alter Environment (which he has utilized to control winds during his duel with Luke on Bespin), Deflection, Barrier, etc. Really, Vader has the edge in Force-generated skills.

@Silver2467: Yet in the PM, we have been discussing who wins in a fight, like Tenebrous vs. Nihilus and Nihilus vs. Vitiate and so on. So I thought we listed beings based on their power to overwhelm the being behind them in the list?

heh Vader easily wins... hell mara jade once said that "Vader would have found Exar Kun quient!" which to me would suggest vader would own kun so much that kun wouldnt stand a chance

@sithlord_1: It wasn't necessarily that Vader would find Exar Kun (in the flesh) quaint. Mara's statement comes from I, Jedi, where the spirit of Exar Kun was torturing Corran Horn with visions of those he cared for the most (his father, Mirax, etc.). The statement was that Vader would have found such attempts on his mental well being laughable.

I agree with Silver's first post. Vader is the second most powerful of the Banite Sith by ROTJ (somewhere around 70% of Palpatine IIRC). The Banite Order essentially distilled 1,000 years of development in the Dark Side in one Sith Lord (Palpatine), and his apprentice (Vader). Vader simply has the knowledge and power to outshine Kun in most categories, and circumvent other techniques Kun used during his time as a Sith (Drain, etc.)

Not to mention Vader possesses an overwhelming advantage in physical strength and a unique saber style that Kun has never seen before (something Vader doesn't have to worry about after his battle with an amped Maul)

@Silver2467 said:

Exar is at a severe disadvantage against an opponent with the particular strengths Vader possesses. Vader is immune to Force Drain, as per his learning a defense against that effect from the spirit/recording of Ulic Qel-Droma so that he could destroy the Dark Reaper during the Clone Wars. Exar's supreme feat with Drain was killing thousands of Massassi with it, but he accomplished this within the parameters of his dark side-cultivated temples which were designed to focus his powers. This is only roughly equal to the Dark Reaper, which could siphon the energies of entire armies, and Anakin was unaffected by that. Vader's stated and tested invulnerability against Drain renders that power moot. Exar's Force Blast was damaging enough to kill Massassi, kill a wyrm, and ruin portions of the Massassi Temple walls. However, he did this following what appeared to be a "charging," so to speak, of his gauntlets within pillars of energy. Later on, when he traveled to the Empress Teta system to confront Ulic and Aleema Keto, Exar's Blast failed to kill Aleema; it only jolted her into unconsciousness despite his professed intention to kill her and Ulic. So it stands to question whether his Force Blast is as powerful as was previously portrayed, especially on account of the aforementioned enhancing that the gauntlets seemed to receive. With that said, Vader is durable enough to tank explosions without much trouble, withstand electricity, withstand blaster bolts, withstand being Force Pushed through rubble, withstand impact force sufficient to slam him through walls, and has survived other effects, such as flamethrowers and buildings collapsing on him. Not only is it suspect whether Kun's Blast is sufficient to wreck temple walls, it may not be enough to drop Vader (in one shot at least) even if it did. It seems as if his Blast is only powerful enough to KO a normal human, and that would definitely not stop Vader.

Exar's own TK is rather useless as well. His best showing was easily hurling back Sylvar, which is decent but hardly incredible. Vader has thrown around ships, crumbled cathedrals, crushed massive droids, knocked over titanic trees, used Lightsaber Throw to spin his blade around his body, pushed people across alleyways, torn down structures, ripped apart platforms, redirected projectiles, etc. Kun is immensely outclassed in telekinetic proficiency. TP would never become a factor in this. Though Kun does have more impressive showings in that regard (though the full circumstances of his sorcery-related TP showings have never been disclosed), but this is irrelevant because to its combat-disuse. Exar's Force Scream never engendered much noticeable wreckage either. It was sensed by Vodo, who was searching the Force for Exar, but its tangible results were minimal. Even then, Scream is involuntary, and Vader evinced a more powerful Scream when he awoke in RotS, years before reaching the height of his abilities. Of course, Essence Transfer is of no use to Kun without his ritual; so there is no need to discuss that. Exar's speed is the generic afterimage-related feats. Vader has achieved that and more. Kun has no other especially notable physical feats, aside from possibly smashing a holocron in his hand (though this was part of a ceremony; so it may not have been purely a physical showing). Vader, on the other hand, has slammed people onto the ground so hard the stone cracked beneath them, remained unmoved by the weight of a dozen stormtroopers, torn steel doors off ships, broken nets, collapsed crystalline pillars, broken binders, etc. Vader is obviously more physically dominating.

Overall, just about every Force ability at Exar's disposal, Vader can either match or circumvent completely. This isn't so much due to a power disparity as much as Exar simply being unfortunate enough to fight an opponent like Vader who just possesses the right tools to deal with him on almost every front. In return, on top of his telekinetic powers, Vader has Dun Moch, Alter Environment (which he has utilized to control winds during his duel with Luke on Bespin), Deflection, Barrier, etc. Really, Vader has the edge in Force-generated skills.

On combat skill, really Vader supersedes Exar here as well. Kun has good dueling feats, such as beating Crado, beating Sylvar, beating Vodo twice, and stalemating Ulic. However, all of Kun's skill showings, except for his fight with Ulic, were against featless characters, and his victories over Vodo were both a consequence of breaking through Vodo's staff, not necessarily outskilling him (not that I think Kun couldn't have outfought Vodo, but he never won over Vodo by virtue of being more skilled), not to mention the Jedi at the time being unaccustomed to engaging twin-bladed weapons. Whereas, Vader has fought equally with an amped Maul, fought equally with Obi-Wan, beat Roan Shryne, beat Celeste Morne, beat the Dark Woman, and beat five Jedi simultaneously (more than once), among other showings, and all of that was done before Vader reached his peak. Vader's skills increased dramatically following ANH, and he dueled as a perfect equal with Luke in RotJ. Not that the difference is huge, but Vader should be the more adept swordsman. His feats and his technical knowledge and adjusted lightsaber form just play it out. As a whole, I would favor Vader. He is a better swordsman, and he has the right combination of powers to counter Exar's. It would be a good fight every time, but Vader should win around 8/10.

This. Completely

@ShootingNova said:

@Silver2467: Yet in the PM, we have been discussing who wins in a fight, like Tenebrous vs. Nihilus and Nihilus vs. Vitiate and so on. So I thought we listed beings based on their power to overwhelm the being behind them in the list?

Yeah that's correct, and Kun wasn't even on the list.

@steelhound56 said:

Vader is the second most powerful of the Banite Sith by ROTJ (somewhere around 70% of Palpatine IIRC). The Banite Order essentially distilled 1,000 years of development in the Dark Side in one Sith Lord (Palpatine), and his apprentice (Vader).

Actually, i would argue that Plagueis and Tenebrous are both more powerful than Vader, as Vader never reached his full potential.

Vader as Silver said, has just the right tools for the job, and wins in the dueling department,also good to point out that most of TOR era Sith's feats needed rituals and prep while Sidous could do it whenever he felt like.

@Silver2467

now I know who to call to an undecided Star Wars debate along with JediXMan.Nice argument and I agree with you.

@JamesKM716: He was only a potential candidate, and so was Vader.

Vader :) all the way

@ShootingNova: yeah exactly.

exar kun can not beat vader through force powers. exars kuns dueling skills however are good. if kun fought darth vader kun would have to make it strictly a sword fight kun is master of niman who created a one handed saber staff even then i still see vader taking kuns best attacks and using force powers to kill exar just my 2 cents.

Vader stomps.

@silver2467: I don't represent the thoughts expressed in this video, but someone addressed this discussion and would like to offer an argument (much more) in Exar Kun's favor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAdHZtB_n9I

could go either way

Exar will feel the power of the dark side

Vader.

Darth vader via chosen one and just about any other way you came think of

Exar for a majority

I don't know why another thread was made for the video but I might as well post it where it is relevant.

@silver2467 in case he ever comes back.

bump

Exar Kun's best TK feat is not pushing Sylvar, it's choking Luke's students simultaneously, whilst Kun was starved of energy and was in his weakest incarnation.

This is the classic argument, though I've said this for ten years now, Exar Kun has ancient techniques, like his black variant of Force lightning which has one-shotted Master Luke, which Darth Vader simply cannot contend with.

Even if Darth Vader was capable of out-fencing Kun, which I personally see going either way, Exar Kun is capable of rendering lightsabers useless, so he can eliminate that advantage should he choose.

Then they would be incorrect, because firstly, he was never a spirit/ghost, he was in actual fact, a disembodied will.

He was undoubtedly more powerful in life than in 'death', he used all of the power from the ritual to survive the attack, and the temples only served to preserve his will/identity, he was completely reliant on parasiting off of Gantoris, Streen and Kyp Durron.

Kun's goal was to restore his lost reserves of energy so he could resurrect himself, to restore his full power, he would have needed to drain the life from Luke, Kyp Durron, Gantoris, Streen, Kirana Ti, Tionne, Dorsk 81 and Corran Horn.

His feats in Jedi Academy Trilogy, are an indication of how much stronger he would have been in life, given that his anchored will isn't as powerful.

I have all the sources for all of that with me.

@darkdefender:

Exar Kun required draining the Jedi Praxeum to be resurrected:

Eleven years later, when Luke founded the Jedi academy on Yavin 4, Exar Kun corrupted Luke’s most powerful student, Kyp Durron, and attempted to resurrect himself by draining power from Luke and the other trainees. Among the trainees were Streen, a former gas prospector, and Kirana Ti of Dathomir, who eventually became Jedi Masters.

- Star Wars: Jedi VS Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force

A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form.

- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

Exar Kun needs to feed off of others to fuel his will:

Exar Kun himself possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris, and Streen to achieve his ends.

- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

The ritual allowed him to preserve himself in the temples:

The Jedi chased Exar Kun to his stronghold on Yavin IV and used their combined power to strike him down and annihilate his Massassi warriors. However, Exar Kun was able to escape death by using Sith sorcery to preserve his spirit in the Massassi temples.

- Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Clearly, in life he was much more powerful.

@darkdefender: No it says he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy by draining all of their power, that is how he can be strong enough again to assume physical form, which if you read the book is exactly what he tries to do, it's highlighted in this sentence:

probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy.

It is also specifically stated that even Kyp Durron, Gantoris and Streen's energy only allows him some of his powers.

You aren't reading the context properly.

@darkdefender: Do as you wish, but I will stick by the fact it makes specific note that the power he is looking for would restore the energy reserves he had in life.

This is supported by the fact that Exar Kun is a confirmed nexus/focal point of the Dark Side, with deep reserves, and enormous power.

I mean Kun is confirmed to be more powerful than Karness Muur, Freedon Nadd, Tulak Hord, Ludo Kressh, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Sorzus Syn, Simus, Joruus C'boath, Desann, Jerec, Thon, Odan Urr, Nomi Sunrider, Ulic Qel-Droma, Vandar and arguably even, Darth Vader.

At any rate, it would be nonsensical to assume that the disembodied incarnation of Kun is as powerful as the living thing.

Vader stomps

No one is stomping.

...This comment saddens me to the very core, I mean Seriously?!?!?!?!?!?

Another one?!?!?!?!??!

@darkdefender:

There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

- Specters of the Past

Statements do not mean nothing, feats are not the be all and end all, power scaling, etc, are very useful in debates, especially with characters like Exar Kun who lack exposure. If you wish to adhere to a feats only policy then that is your choice, not mine.

Living Kun has done things just as impressive:

-tanking starfighter attacks with his barrier without gesturing.

-shrugging off Sever Force from Odan-Urr.

-freezing potentially tens of thousands of senators instantly.

-using a massive drain ritual without even having researched the ritual beforehand.

-'easily demolishing' 30 Tuk'ata, whom had ambushed him, whilst not even yet a Sith.*

*Noting that AOTC Anakin with help, struggled with a single Tuk'ata, and a hindered PoD Bane struggled hard to kill 10.

It's very clear that Kun is not nearly as strong as he is in life, claiming that his spirit feats are better, so he is more powerful as a spirit, is illogical.

Gallery

The first is him petrifying the senate, which is comprised of Jedi Guardians for protection. The second is a scan for the size of the senate hall.

He did it with his lightsaber as a Jedi, prior to some colossal upgrades as a sith lord.

Vader.

@londonbfr said:

@darkdefender said:

What's this freezing thousands of senators feat from?

Gallery

The first is him petrifying the senate, which is comprised of Jedi Guardians for protection. The second is a scan for the size of the senate hall.

He prepped for that feat last I heard. @i_like_swords?