Darth Vader vs Darth Tenebrous

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Rules

  • In character
  • Standard gear
  • No prior knowledge
  • Random Encounter
  • Location: Geonosis Arena
  • Fight to the death, knockout or incapacitation

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SSJDarthPlagueis

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Hmm.....

Well from the only little knowledge I know from Tenebrous he should be faster than Vader as Plagueis had some trouble keeping up with his Master. For dueling skills I really don't know from Tenebrous side(They should really make a full book for him). Force lighting will be of danger to Vader's life support system.

I'll go with Tenebrous for now.

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JakeN7

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Vader has much more to pull from, but from the one chapter Tenebrous was in, he had some damn impressive feats. I'd definitely say Tenebrous is faster, and he's unmatched in precognition.

I'll side with Tenebrous, but I'm just as likely to switch back to Vader.

@shootingnova Thoughts?

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ShootingNova

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#4  Edited By ShootingNova

This is an interesting matchup and I have been thinking about similar fights for a long time. Tenebrous is clearly an obscure character with limited feats, but his position as one of the last in the Order of the Sith Lords and as the direct predecessor to Plagueis would automatically insinuate a victory. With comparisons to their feats, I should still favor him.

In terms of dueling, Tenebrous is somewhat unknown. Pertaining to skill, he has no directly shown feats, but his direct antecedence before Plagueis would indicate similar levels of skill, given Plagueis' own distate for lightsaber dueling and Tenebrous's own enjoyment of it. Tenebrous's mastery expanded to other weapons, since he was able to use Force pikes to outfight an entire army alongside Plagueis. He should, under logical inference, have sparred with Plagueis, but there's no solid evidence of that. He was able to train Venamis into Plagueis' style, and from Venamis, we can solidly infer that Tenebrous could have accomplished the same feats of switching multiple forms ambidextrously and fighting while suspended in the air, which attests to technical knowledge/skill and synergy between fighting skills and Force abilities. However, Tenebrous simply isn't pronounced enough in this area - he has no solid victories against anybody, so far. Vader has outfought the Dark Woman, Roan Shyrne, held the advantage against Ben Kenobi, and then, improving tremendously, defeating TESB Luke and stalemating RotJ Luke. Vader has received accolades for being one of the most skilled swordsmen in history, and while under reasonable inference, Tenebrous would be comparably skilled, Vader just has a greater wealth of feats to draw on. Vader would get the edge if a fight was decided solely by combative proficiency, but there are multiple other elements in a fight, all of which need to be considered.

With respects to other physical attributes, Vader should also get the edge in physical strength and resilience simply for Tenebrous's own lack of feats. I suspect his own reserves and potential should grant him at least Maul-level strength/durability, but we can't say. However, the most pertinent attribute for this fight is speed, and in this category, Tenebrous vastly outstrips Vader. He has ran fast enough to nearly knock Plagueis over and then give him strain to keep up, and has fought fought entire armies alongside Plagueis with only force pikes and not only defeated the armies, but emerged unscathed (quotes for each in respective order):

Nearly knocked over by the swiftness of Tenebrous’s departure, Plagueis had to call deeply on the Force merely to keep up.

Source: Darth Plagueis

The location of the planet known to the Sith as Kursid had been expunged from the Republic records in distant times, and for the past six hundred years had been reserved for use as a place of spectacle. Masters and apprentices of the Bane lineage had visited with enough regularity that a cult had come into being in that part of the world based on the periodic return of the sky visitors. The Sith hadn't bothered to investigate what Kursid's indigenous humanoids thought about the visits—whether in their belief systems the Sith were regarded as the equivalent of deities or demons—since it was unlikely that the primitives had yet so much as named their world. However, visiting as apprentice and—more often than not—as Master, each Sith Lord had remarked on the slow advancement of Kursid's civilization. How, on the early visits, the primitives had defended themselves with wooden war clubs and smooth rocks hurled from slings. Two hundred years later, many of the small settlements had grown to become cities or ceremonial centers built of a crude sort, and magical guardian symbols had been emblazoned on the sloping sides of defensive walls. At some point previous to Darth Tenebrous's visit as an apprentice, replicas of the Sith ships had been constructed in the center of the arid plateau that served as a battleground, and enormous totemic figures—visible only from above—had been outlined by removing tens of thousands of fists-sized volcanic stones that covered the ground. On Plagueis's first visit, some fifty years earlier, the warriors he and Tenebrous had faced had been armed with longbows and metal-tipped lances.

That the Sith had never demanded anything other than battle hadn't kept the primitives from attempting to adopt a policy of appeasement, leaving at the ships' perpetual landing site foodstuffs, sacrificial victims, and works of what they considered art, forged of materials they held precious or sacred. But the Sith had simply ignored the offerings, waiting instead on the stony plain for the primitives to deploy their warriors, as the primitives did now with Plagueis and Sidious waiting. Announcing their arrival with low runs over the city, they had set the ship down and waited for six days, while the mournful calls of breath-driven horns had disturbed the dry silences, and groups of primitives had flocked in to gather on the hillsides that overlooked the battleground.

"Do you recall what Darth Bane said regarding the killing of innocents?" Plagueis had asked.

"Our mission," Sidious paraphrased, "is not to bring death on all those unfit to live. All we do must serve our true purpose—the preservation of our Order and the survival of the Sith. We must work to grow our power, and to accomplish that we will need to interact with individuals of many species across many worlds. Eventually word of our existence will reach the ears of the Jedi."

To refrain from senseless killing, they wielded force pikes rather than lightsabers. Meter-long melee weapons used by the Echani and carried by the Senate Guard, the pikes were equipped with stun-module tips capable of delivering a shock that could overwhelm the nervous systems of most sentients, without causing permanent damage.

"The next few hours will test the limits of your agility, speed, and accuracy," Plagueis said, as several hundred of the biggest, bravest, and most skilled warriors—their bodies daubed in pigments derived from plants, clay, and soil—began to separate themselves from the crowds. "But this is more than some simple exercise in our rise to ultimate power, and therefore servants of the dark side of the Force. Centuries from now, advanced by the Sith, they might confront us with projectile weapons or energy beams. But then we will have evolved, as well, perhaps past the need for this rite, and we will come instead to honor rather than engage them in battle. Through power we gain victory, and through victory our chains are broken. But power is only a means to an end."

To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.

Source: Darth Plagueis

Tenebrous's combat speed and agility is vastly superior, and his running speed is infinitely superior. Vader's strength and skill would be tantamount to irrelevant by virtue of Tenebrous's sheer speed advantage. Vader would probably never be able to hit him, and truth be told, I fail to see Vader even holding an offensive. He would probably be on the defensive the entire time, and he would only be able to sustain resistance for so long. Tenebrous's reasonably inferred comparable mastery as well as his tremendous speed advantage would grant him the win.

With respects to Force powers, Tenebrous is just about as powerful. Vader's best telekinetic feat would be collapsing a cathedral, but Tenebrous, with no evident strain, supporting huge sloughing pieces of cave ceiling that threatened to crush his ship. Vader's showing is honestly not as impressive. In sheer size, perhaps it is more impressive, but if one scrutinizes the other pertinent elements, Tenebrous's feat is somewhat but only slightly superior. For one, Vader is simply collapsing the cathedral, which indicates gravity would aid him. Tenebrous, however, was supporting the collapsing cave ceiling slabs, so he would be fighting against gravity. Moreover, Tenebrous's feat seemed to happen instantly and required only moderate effort, while Vader's feat took an extensive period of time and he seemed to require maximum effort. Now, Vader did grow more powerful by RotJ, but probably only marginally (none of his feats showcase this, and it was never stated by how much). They're either equals in telekinesis or Tenebrous exceeds him.

Regarding other abilities, Tenebrous should be more masterful. With only moderate effort, he has weaved Force shields that have repelled explosions powerful enough to destroy mines and collapse portions of caves, while Vader's usages of Barrier have only served him against blaster bolts, to my memory. While Vader has utilized powers Tenebrous has never been shown (operative word) to use, such as Deflection and Alter Environment, Tenebrous's own status as the master in the Banite Sith should offer him a wealth of texts and holocrons and esoteric knowledge which probably does exceed Vader's, not that it would matter. However, we can definitely attest to Tenebrous being more masterful in the Force. Beyond the aforementioned displays of power which seemed to favor Tenebrous, Tenebrous's own Force senses are sophisticated enough to operate on a microscopic level even as he was dying, and being able to sense the individual deaths of his midi-chlorians exceeds any usage of Force Sense Vader has offered:

His Force-perception was even more acute than the magnifying powers of his enormous eyes; in the Force, he could feel each individual midi-chlorian wink out in turn, a spreading wave of darkness, like stars eclipsed by the silhouette of an approaching ship.

Source: The Tenebrous Way

Also, Tenebrous was implied to have telepathically manipulated Plagueis' mind for years, perhaps in similar fashion to how Sidious did. While TP would probably never enter a fight between them, we can safely say Tenebrous's telepathic abilities would be superior if this is the case.

Pertaining to other elements that may factor in, there's probably two more left - one, that Tenebrous's own intelligence and computational abilities also vastly outstrip Vader's, as he can calculate the future.

Like many Sith before him, he had turned his powers toward knowledge of the future. But unlike any Sith before him he had the enormous brain of his people, which combined sheer brute processing power with a level of analytical precision simply beyond the capacity of any other species. The future was always in motion, and while other Sith struggled to foresee the faintest, least specific hints of what was to come, Tenebrous had no need to see the future.

He could calculate it.

Source: The Tenebrous Way

Two, Tenebrous does know Lightning, but the sheer potency of it is unidentified. All we know is that it can leave behind residual sparks long after the initial discharge, which would probably indicate he could harm Vader, but not give him an instant win (Vader has withstood electrical nets before). Vader could also catch it on his blade or weaken the Lightning with his Barrier such that, if the Lightning did bypass the Barrier, it would probably be inconsequential. Lightning would probably not hit for a majority, but it could slow Vader enough to guarantee Tenebrous's victory for the round, but even then, I doubt it would be necessary.

Also, Vader would never be able to permanently kill Tenebrous. His preset retrovirus would cause his maxi-chlorians to migrate into Vader's body, although the OP stipulates physical death is the only prerequisite for victory. In any case, I would support Tenebrous every time for reasons listed above.

Darth Tenebrous, 10/10.

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ShootingNova

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@shootingnova: LOL. It looks like you typed that in 5 minutes because of Jaken's shoutout.

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ShootingNova

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@i_like_swords: I type fast, but not that fast :P

Nah, I was doing it while they were typing up theirs.

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JakeN7

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#9  Edited By JakeN7

@shootingnova said:
@jaken7 said:

@shootingnova Thoughts?

^ I was typing up my post while you guys were making your own.

Oh, hah! Nice. That was still pretty fast though. Glad to know I had the right idea.

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ShootingNova

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#10  Edited By ShootingNova

@jaken7: You should return to that top 10 list and see that stuff for yourself.

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Fodder76

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Would Ten really stomp 10/10?

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dondave

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Tenebrous

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JakeN7

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#13  Edited By JakeN7

@jaken7: You should return to that top 10 list and see that stuff for yourself.

Reading Nova's post, it sounds like it. I might give Vader 1/10 just to be controversial.

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MorganFreeman

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@beezlebub said:

Would Ten really stomp 10/10?

Tenebrous is a serious contender for earning a place in my "Top 5 Sith Lords" list if I were to make one (4th or 5th, probably), and should be for most people. He's not as strong as Sidious or Caedus but he's certainly in the ballpark of Plagueis, which alone is enough to command plenty of respect. Just being that powerful and a skilled user of Force Lightning puts him at a great advantage over Vader.

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Fodder76

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Ahh.

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ShootingNova

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@beezlebub: Nobody said Tenebrous is stomping. I just said he would win every time.

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JakeN7

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@beezlebub: Nobody said Tenebrous is stomping. I just said he would win every time.

How close would you say each fight is?

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ShootingNova

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@jaken7: Not very hard for Tenebrous, but not necessarily easy. Decent fights, I suppose.

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Fodder76

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You said 10/10 that is a stomp.

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MorganFreeman

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@beezlebub said:

You said 10/10 that is a stomp.

Being able to win multiple fights is different than complete obliteration.

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Fodder76

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Ahh.

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ShootingNova

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You said 10/10 that is a stomp.

No, it isn't. It just means Tenebrous will always win. I never said it was a stomp.

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Fodder76

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Ahh.

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ShootingNova

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Ahh.

You've said that three times now.

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Fodder76

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Indeed.

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Erkan12

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Tenebrous.

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ShootingNova

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Kind of a pointless bump. But since it was bumped, I'll just reiterate that I still feel Tenebrous would win every single time, for the same reasons I outlined above.

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deactivated-5a4a9a7745a28

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First I want to say that this is my first post on this site and that English is not my native language, so sorry if my post is unclear or confusing.

Next I want to add that my post will mainly answer on the good analysis that ShootingNova already has made.

Force power

In this part I mainly disagree with the assessment ShootingNova has made.

For the TK department Darth Tenebrous best feat is holding the giant slides of rock that threatened to crush his ship while Darth Vader’s best feat could be collapsing the cathedral (like ShootingNova already mentioned) but the main part that I disagree with is the fact that Darth Tenebrous would be working against gravity while Vader was aided by gravity. This assumption is partly correct because indeed Darth Tenebrous was aided by gravity and Vader is helped by gravity but that doesn’t mean that is superior to Vader’s feat. Why? Well because of the fact that in order to destroy the cathedral, Vader needed to practice a stronger power then the walls/pillars holding the cathedral and in order to hold the cathedral, the walls/pillars need to be strong enough to support the cathedrals weight (gravity). So the difference of the two feats can’t be explained by the use of gravity.

Another fact I want to add is that apparently the slabs of rock that threatened to crush Darth Tenebrous his ship and him (we that later when Darth Plagueis brings down those slabs of rock) didn’t completely crush his ship. We see later that the ship is damaged but that Darth Plagueis can still enter the ship. In understanding that the ship is just a personal transport ship (like the ship that Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Amidala use to get of Naboo) it can be assumed that the slabs of rock that Darth Tenebrous was holding could maximum be the seize of the ship while the cathedral was bigger than that.

Another offensive force power we only see Darth Tenebrous use is force lightning which can leave sparks behind after it is fired but we don’t really have other feats to determine its strength. And in a battle I would suppose that Vader could catch it on his blade and/or weaken with his barrier/

So in terms of offensive force powers I would favour Vader.

On the other hand when we look at the defensive force powers (mainly barrier) then we see that Darth Tenebrous his force barrier was strong enough to repel the explosion that could collapse a mine while Vader’s barrier could repel blaster fire, flamethrowers and sonic grenades (which could collapse a relatively small tunnel).

In terms of defensive force powers I would favour Darth Tenebrous but Vader’s feats lay in the same line but definitely inferior.

Other force powers that haven’t been discussed wouldn’t really be crucial to the duel.

In the end I would call them equal in terms of force power or leaning toward Vader (in which can be discussed to what extent but for the sake of this discussion I will assume that their equal).

Strength

We don’t really have feats that could indicate the strength of Darth Tenebrous while we have plenty of Vader’s (ripping of durasteel doors or crushing a storm troopers head). So I think we can assume that Vader taking this part.

Skill

I don’t think I have to explain the skill of Darth Vader, let’s say he is a tier 9 duelist. On the other hand, Darth Tenebrous doesn’t have any feats to drawn upon but assuming that he would be Vader’s equal is just too much for me. I have seen theories that because of Darth Tenebrous place in the Banite order and because how he trained both Darth Venamis and Darth Plagueis he would be near Vader but that is something I firmly disagree with. Mainly it proves his knowledge of lightsaber duelling but can and could never indicate his skill. For the sake of the discussion I would put him in tier 8.

So this part would be for Vader.

Speed

This is the part which mostly decided the fight according to ShootingNova.

Originally my opinion on this was in line with the one of ShootingNova but has changed since I read Lords of the Sith.

We know that Darth Tenebrous alongside with Darth Plagueis has defeated hundreds of Kursid warriors while not using offensive force powers and using a force pike instead of a lightsaber. The feat of Vader which could be compared is when he and Darth Sidious fought and killed an entire nest of Lyleks in Lords of the Sith. But I have to mention that Darth Vader and Darth Sidious did use offensive force powers and lightsabers and Darth Vader got hit a couple times (but nothing that actually injured him). If we compare the feats then Darth Tenebrous his feat is definitely superior but we must consider that Darth Vader and Darth Sidious fought Lyleks and not Kursid warriors. Lyleks are huge and deadly beasts (approximately 3 meters in height) and they have 2 tentacles and 6 deadly legs. So the first difference is that Lyleks are more deadly than a Kursid warrior because of it’s multiple legs and tentacles (they use both their tentacles and legs to attack a prey) while Kursid warriors have 2 arms and in some occasions use a bow in which only 1 projectile needed to be dodged so in order to fight a Lylek you need to dodge at least 2 tentacles but most times also their legs (perhaps 1 or 2). Another difference is that Darth Vader and Darth Sidious needed to kill the Lyleks while Darth Tenebrous and Darth Plagueis needed to incapacitate the Kursid warriors so using a force pike is an advantage because one hit with it can paralyze a normal being (in this case the Kursid warrior) while Vader had to actually kill the Lylek (slicing of his head or hitting another vital organ). As last I want to mention that Lyleks had an extremely strong exoskeleton that couldn’t be pierced by blaster fire which supports more the fact that it is extremely hard to kill 1 Lylek compared to a Kursid warrior.

Additional feats of Vader’s speed is that he deflected omnidirectal laser fire and formed a dozen afterimages of his blade (Count Dooku has for example formed 8 in his fight against Yoda).

In the end I would still view Darth Tenebrous his feat as superior to Vader’s but not to the extent that previously was inclined.

Verdict

In the end Darth Vader has both skill and strength while Darth Tenebrous has speed. I would give Darth Vader a 6/10 to 6,5/10 against Darth Tenebrous.

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#29  Edited By DarthTyrannus

@shootingnova: I do agree tenebrous would win but 10/10? Vader is a powerful sith lord and I feel that his knowledge of djem so would allow him to go on offensive despite tenebrouses being far faster and he maybe could get some breathing space froom the duel by force choke or tk without hand gestures. Not enough to win just enough to batter tenebrous and disarm him like 2-3 times but still tenebrous wins 8/10. And this is off topic and not directed and you Nova but Erkan12 STOP DARTH MAUL WANKIN IN EVRY DARTH MAUL VS. Sometimes you say ridiculous stuff like darth maul is a better duelist than dooku sometimes you say he can out duel vader JUST STOP. Darth Maul is a powerful sith just not to the extent you and Ilikeswords ARE WANKIN HIM TO BE

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deactivated-5aba78567e8b5

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Hah Vader stomps

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lukespeedblitz

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hmmm I'm curious at to others thoughts on this.....

Tenebrous very well may win here......

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Considering that Tenebrous's Apprentice's Apprentice is considered the most powerful Sith Lord of all time, I'm guessing his power wouldn't be too far off from Sidious's. Also, I'd imagine Sidious would be able to crush Darth Vader despite the fact that Vader is very powerful. I'd say Tenebrous.

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ShootingNova

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@darthtyrannus:

I do agree tenebrous would win but 10/10? Vader is a powerful sith lord and I feel that his knowledge of djem so would allow him to go on offensive despite tenebrouses being far faster

Knowledge of forms doesn't let you go on the offensive, and especially not against a considerably faster and more agile opponent. Not only that, but Tenebrous knows numerous forms as well.

and he maybe could get some breathing space froom the duel by force choke or tk without hand gestures.

Unless Tenebrous seriously slips up in his defenses (and a Sith Lord of his stature wouldn't), then Vader isn't landing a Choke in any capacity. As for telekinesis, considering that Tenebrous is actually more powerful than Vader and his Barrier is pretty damn powerful, I'm inclined to say that Vader won't be finding success through any usage of telekinesis.

Not enough to win just enough to batter tenebrous and disarm him like 2-3 times but still tenebrous wins 8/10.

Vader isn't going to disarm a more powerful Force User by telekinesis.

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GeorgeWBush

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@shootingnova:

Knowledge of forms doesn't let you go on the offensive, and especially not against a considerably faster and more agile opponent. Not only that, but Tenebrous knows numerous forms as

It does when Tenebrous has no saber feats to suggest he can adequately respond to Vader in a duel. Compsite Vader was moving faster than Ferus Olin who could deflect fire from 20 stormtroopers could perceive, deflected omnidirectional blaster fire in Lords of the Sith, deflected Turbolaser fire, and could respond to the attacks of scores of Jedi on Kessel decades before his prime. How exactly is Tenebrous faster and why does speed matter when Vader is a greater duelist in terms of feats than Tenebrous who has no saber feats to his name?

Unless Tenebrous seriously slips up in his defenses (and a Sith Lord of his stature wouldn't), then Vader isn't landing a Choke in any capacity. As for telekinesis, considering that Tenebrous is actually more powerful than Vader and his Barrier is pretty damn powerful, I'm inclined to say that Vader won't be finding success through any usage of telekines

Your supposition don't count in the absence of any sort of feats. And Vader has greater showings of barrier such as withstanding the explosion of one of the largest Imperial bases (In canon) Cymoon 1. Tenebrous couldn't even make the barrier to withstand the much smaller mining Explosion on Baldemnic, he needed Plagueis's help and the explosion of Cymoon is on a much larger scale.

That's not even accounting the greater showings of telekinesis, greater force feats such as willing himself back to life, and being canonically greater than Jerec, Kar Vastor, among Vader'smore recent accolades.

Vader isn't going to disarm a more powerful Force User by telekinesis.

What has Tenebrous done objectively to show he is more powerful other than usual intellectual gymnastics due to his place in Bane's order? Not really anything, tbh

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Power-scaling points to Tenebrous being superior, and by a lot, to Bane's pay-grade and Plagueis' comparable. So I don't see why he isn't above Vader.

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WollfMyth209

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And this is off topic and not directed and you Nova but Erkan12 STOP DARTH MAUL WANKIN IN EVRY DARTH MAUL VS. Sometimes you say ridiculous stuff like darth maul is a better duelist than dooku sometimes you say he can out duel vader JUST STOP. Darth Maul is a powerful sith just not to the extent you and Ilikeswords ARE WANKIN HIM TO BE

Why are you mentioning this in:

  1. A thread with no Maul in it
  2. A thread with no Erkan in it

You want to tell something to Erkan, PM him or address him in a post that's relevant to the discussion at hand.

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JarJarBinks

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Well both are head and shoulders above Bane, but Vader might be able to win this.

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Brightsteel

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Power-scaling points to Tenebrous being superior, and by a lot, to Bane's pay-grade and Plagueis' comparable. So I don't see why he isn't above Vader.

Not really.

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Pharoh_Atem

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Darth Vader, obviously.

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WollfMyth209

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@wollfmyth209: I said this was off topic and as i'm relatively new i have no idea how to send erkan a message

You go to someone's profile, you then click this little icon:

No Caption Provided

And then type up your message. No need to attack him in a thread he's not even in just to derail it. If you want, go to a Maul thread and tag him there and discuss your problem. But do it in a civil manner. If you attack him and yell: MAUL WANKER!!! he'll just ignore you. Challenge him to a proper debate.

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@shootingnova: Well maybe some of those things don't apply but the point is that I simply don't see tenebrous winning every encounter with vader he is a powerful sith lord and which vader are you talking about? Prime vader or just in his suit vader or in between? But if prime I state once again I find it hard to believe tenebrous would win every encounter. Most but not all as vader is a superior duelist and hits pretty hard. True his lack of mobility is his weakness but I think you exaggerate the extent to which it would affect the outcome as vader did fight maul who is a little slower than plagueis himself and was able to win and this wasn't even in his prime and dearth maul was amped. So while I don't agree with George Bush but vader has shown some better showings in some departments of the force such as barrier and greater pain resistance and don't forget while enraged vader becomes like 3 times as deadly so while I don't feel its enough to let him win more than 2-3 fights so like I said before tenebrous 8/10

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That Rule of Two argument is getting boring, and it's kinda funny nobody sees it actually rarely demonstrated the apprentice being superior to the predecessor in direct contest.

  • Bane lost to Zannah only in the direct contest of willpower in the Essence Transfer attempt.
  • Huntress's/Cognus's first apprentice just escaped from her and created her own order.
  • Darth Gravid was killed in a duel in which he was more occupied with destroying Sith library.
  • Tenebrous was killed in a trap without a smallest contest between him and Plagueis.
  • Plagueis was killed by Palpatine when drugged and sleeping.

Yeah, really, every next Sith in the Rule of Two was definitely superior to the predecessor...

The main aspect of that, being the apprentice defeating the master in combat - we pretty much never saw it happen besides Bane and Zannah themselves. Everyone else died outside of open 1v1 duel.

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ShootingNova

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#44  Edited By ShootingNova

@georgewbush:

It does when Tenebrous has no saber feats to suggest he can adequately respond to Vader in a duel.

Considering that so many people with "no feats' managed to adequately respond to Vader in a duel, I find it difficult (no, actually, I find it downright ludicrous) to suggest that one of the latter Banite era Sith (who is just superior to anyone Vader has ever defeated with a blade) would lack the ability to adequately respond in a duel. Moreover, let's get through this "no feats" bandwagoning and actually use some sense.

Tenebrous is obviously one of the more proficient duelists, because he's one of the last members of Banite Sith Order and a direct predecessor to Plagueis. Sources have told us before that each Sith Lord in the Banite Sith Order, at the peak of their power, was more powerful than the last. The reason this matters is because as we've seen in the history of Star Wars, power is a measure of one's skill - one's capacity and limit with a blade is defined by the strength of their connection to the Force (as well as other factors, but they don't matter here) and practice. Tenebrous has both - he's mentioned in the novel as a lightsaber enthusiast and he's someone with the Force connection to be proficient with a blade if he's really as interested (and thus inferrably as practiced) in the field.

We can also look at Venamis, who was virtually still in awe of Tenebrous at the time (in other words, I doubt he would've surpassed Tenebrous) being able to perform mid-air duels and switch through multiple forms mid-duel ambidextrously. It's reasonable to suggest that as his tutor, Tenebrous was at least equally as technically skilled as Venamis was - and moreso than anybody Vader has beaten in a duel.

There's also the fact that Tenebrous's brain is simply superior in function to Vader's by a considerable margin, but I'd rather not get dragged into debates on how that's affect this fight.

Compsite Vader was moving faster than Ferus Olin who could deflect fire from 20 stormtroopers could perceive, deflected omnidirectional blaster fire in Lords of the Sith, deflected Turbolaser fire, and could respond to the attacks of scores of Jedi on Kessel decades before his prime. How exactly is Tenebrous faster and why does speed matter when Vader is a greater duelist in terms of feats than Tenebrous who has no saber feats to his name?

This is the same case as Sidious moving faster than Maul or Anakin etc. can see. Ferus wasn't in the midst of battle, his perceptions weren't at their optimal level and he simply wasn't expecting Vader to stab Roan. As we saw in Reckoning, Ferus could perceive Vader's movements (and I'm aware that Vader spent most of the battle toying with him). Not saying it isn't a good feat, since Force users are naturally superhuman in their physical capacity, but we see otherwise in Reckoning.

Tenebrous has ran fast enough to nearly bowl Plagueis over (a character of immense physical proportions, as we all know) and we know that Tenebrous and Plagueis did something similar to what Plagueis and Sidious did in the novel where they charged into a small army of Kursid warriors and incapacitated all of them without offensive use of the Force or being hit once. Neither of those showings can be replicated by Vader.

Your supposition don't count in the absence of any sort of feats. And Vader has greater showings of barrier such as withstanding the explosion of one of the largest Imperial bases (In canon) Cymoon 1. Tenebrous couldn't even make the barrier to withstand the much smaller mining Explosion on Baldemnic, he needed Plagueis's help and the explosion of Cymoon is on a much larger scale.

Tenebrous' feats aren't absent. We're also not counting Canon, because this is a thread made with Legends Vader in mind, and as per Battle forum rules, that's the version we're using.

The explosion on Bal'demnic was still enough to collapse the entire mine (with tunnels each the size of cathedrals - quote below), so in actuality, I'm not convinced that the Cymoon explosion was "much bigger". That, and nowhere does the text state that Plagueis helped Tenebrous in the Barrier showing. Plagueis helped Tenebrous by holding the collapsing fragments of mine above Tenebrous' head. Tenebrous repelled the Barrier single-handedly.

Closer to the surface the tunnels opened into caverns the size of cathedrals, smoothed and hollowed by rainwater that still surged in certain seasons of Bal’demnic’s long year.

Source: Darth Plagueis

That's not even accounting the greater showings of telekinesis, greater force feats such as willing himself back to life, and being canonically greater than Jerec, Kar Vastor, among Vader's more recent accolades.

I'll give you Vader's greater showings of telekinesis, but in fairness, that's because we've never seen Tenebrous be fully taxed (in his single TK showing, he was holding up collapsing fragments of mine before Plagueis basically called it all down on him). Being canonically greater than Jerec and Kar Vastor isn't as good as Tenebrous being canonically more powerful than Bane and Zannah and every other Sith Lord down the line who is canonically more powerful than Bane and Zannah themselves, etc.

For willing himself back to life, I'll give you that, but again, even Sion has done that (repeatedly). Is that really something we can place beyond Tenebrous? Even granted that Vader's pain tolerance and willpower are simply that much greater than Tenebrous (that isn't really going to impact on the fight)

What has Tenebrous done objectively to show he is more powerful other than usual intellectual gymnastics due to his place in Bane's order? Not really anything, tbh

It's not intellectual gymnastics, it's fact. There's no point even trying to argue against it.

For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.

Source: Epsidode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook

For a thousand years we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, bidding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred.

Source: Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

And this is a bit off-topic, but this isn't just a concept from Legends, it's even made it's way into Canon:

Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation.

Source: Force & Destiny: Core Rulebook

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

@darthtyrannus:

Well maybe some of those things don't apply but the point is that I simply don't see tenebrous winning every encounter with vader he is a powerful sith lord and which vader are you talking about? Prime vader or just in his suit vader or in between?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Prime Vader in Legends was in his suit.

But if prime I state once again I find it hard to believe tenebrous would win every encounter. Most but not all as vader is a superior duelist and hits pretty hard.

Maybe he is the better duelist, but it wouldn't be by much, and certainly not enough to circumvent Tenebrous' considerably greater speed and agility. Strength is irrelevant - somebody of Tenebrous' physical augmentative capacity can hold their own against Vader's blows, especially seeing as Tenebrous' mini-me version in Venamis was able to match Plagueis' blows (and we know that Plagueis has similar strength to Vader).

True his lack of mobility is his weakness but I think you exaggerate the extent to which it would affect the outcome as vader did fight maul who is a little slower than plagueis himself and was able to win and this wasn't even in his prime and dearth maul was amped.

Maul isn't a match for Tenebrous or Plagueis either. He's also not just "a little slower" - it's considerable. Vader would've been amped as well as Maul (the degree to which they were amped is disputable but that's not something I want to get into now) and he lost to genuine duel. He basically won by grabbing a gloating Maul and stabbing him (and himself, in the process). Not really something that would happen here.

So while I don't agree with George Bush but vader has shown some better showings in some departments of the force such as barrier and greater pain resistance and don't forget while enraged vader becomes like 3 times as deadly so while I don't feel its enough to let him win more than 2-3 fights so like I said before tenebrous 8/10

Legends Vader doesn't have better Barrier, and Vader isn't the only one who can benefit from being enraged. You're also exaggerating the benefits of him being enraged... by a lot.

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WollfMyth209

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#45  Edited By WollfMyth209

@jkbart:

That Rule of Two argument is getting boring, and it's kinda funny nobody sees it actually rarely demonstrated the apprentice being superior to the predecessor in direct contest.

What do you mean rarely? Virtually after every master's death, the apprentice grows in power considerably(Plagueis, Sidious, Zannah, etc.)

  • Bane lost to Zannah only in the direct contest of willpower in the Essence Transfer attempt.

Hence her will and command of the Force was greater. And he was on the dead-side even prior to that due to the Tendrils Zannah unleashed.

  • Huntress's/Cognus's first apprentice just escaped from her and created her own order.

How does this contradict anything about the Bane-line producing more powerful Sith over the course of generations?

  • Darth Gravid was killed in a duel in which he was more occupied with destroying Sith library.

We don't know the full circumstances of the duel. We just know Gean was fatally injured and still killed Gravid, hence she surpassed him even if by the skin of her teeth.

  • Tenebrous was killed in a trap without a smallest contest between him and Plagueis.

And then Plagueis surpassed him.

  • Plagueis was killed by Palpatine when drugged and sleeping.

And then Sidious surpassed him.

Yeah, really, every next Sith in the Rule of Two was definitely superior to the predecessor...

The main aspect of that, being the apprentice defeating the master in combat - we pretty much never saw it happen besides Bane and Zannah themselves. Everyone else died outside of open 1v1 duel.

Right. But notice after every master's death, we have confirmation that the apprentice becomes more powerful than their master. On top of that, we do have sources that directly state with each generation the Sith become more powerful:

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And you're going to argue, because two offward Sith decided to leave/try and change the Order, two Sith that were killed and surpassed, either way, makes the argument flawed? Yeah right.

@shootingnova Might I also add Tenebrous is superior to Gravid, who has errected Barriers that surrounded entire strongholds and fortresses and Gean who has broken through said Barriers:

Barricaded within the walls of a bastion he and his Twi'lek apprentice, Gean, had constructed on Jaguada, he had attempted as much, and was thought to have destroyed more than half the repository of artifacts before Gean, demonstrating consummate will and courage, had managed to penetrate the Force fields Gravid had raised around their stronghold and intercede, killing her Master with her bare hands, though at the cost of her arm, shoulder, and the entire left side of her face and chest.

Darth Plagueis novel

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DarthTyrannus

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@shootingnova: I meant were you talking about vader before his suit, still adjusting to his suit because he just got it vader, or vader from episode 6 who is in his prime just clear it up Nova

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@shootingnova: A force amped anakin beat dooku who is much better than him normally and you said it yourself each generation of sith grew better so shouldn't darth vader be superior to tenebrous?

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Unquestionably Vader. Suggesting otherwise is lolworthy.

Have I ever told you how much I loved you? :)