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#1 Edited by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

Different times... Same person. But who wins?

  • Anakin is angry
  • Vader is annoyed
#2 Posted by GhostRider29 (2673 posts) - - Show Bio

Already done. I know this has.

#3 Posted by Ferro Vida (34606 posts) - - Show Bio

Umm... Vader.

#4 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Vader wins after a fairly long fight.

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#5 Posted by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

Going with suited Vader

He's debatably the better swordsman, and has feats of Force power that would make Anakin crap himself.

Just because he's been burned to a crisp doesn't make him any less of a monster.

In terms of potential

Anakin>>>>>> Vader

In terms of actual Force ability

Vader>>>>>> Anakin

#6 Posted by The_Thunderer (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56 said:

In terms of potential

Anakin>>>>>> Vader

In terms of actual Force ability

Vader>>>>>> Anakin

Although the fact that anakin is more agile and organic may make him superior to Vader as a swordsman?

#7 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way. Both have advantages over one another in some areas, and both are nearly identical to one another in all other areas.

#8 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Thunderer said:

@steelhound56 said:

In terms of potential

Anakin>>>>>> Vader

In terms of actual Force ability

Vader>>>>>> Anakin

Although the fact that anakin is more agile and organic may make him superior to Vader as a swordsman?

Been argued by top-level star wars fans, I believe it was

#9 Posted by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise: Indeed it has.

And you are correct. EU Vader is actually extremely agile. He hasn't had much trouble fighting fantastic Jedi swordsmen before. The fact that Anakin may be more agile is also moot, as Vader has beaten several opponents that are more agile than he is as well.

And he has the advantage of 20 years of exclusive tutoring by Sidious, something that Anakin doesn't have before he dons the suit

#10 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Yup. But one thing also, Vader has advantages of knowledge and experience. For example, he might know how to channel his rage more effectively and such and such since reading Darth Malgus' journal. He also has more experience with Sith Relics and such, like the Muur Talisman, although Anakin has visited Korriban before, even though he nearly got tempted to join the Dark Side.

@steelhound56: Plus superior knowledge and experience. Vader isn't >>>>>>>>>> to Anakin in Force ability however.

@The_Thunderer: Vader is quite fast, and can still react to Anakin having fought more agile opponents as well.

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#11 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader lost tons of potential when he lost most of his body, but the Anakin stated here hasn't reached that potential yet anyway. Vader's suit gives him enhanced strength and while he is constantly in great pain, all that does is fuel his connection to the darkside. Vader knows everything Anakin knows as well as a huge amount more and has a great deal of extra experience to boot.

I don't see Anakin winning this.

#12 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy: Yup.

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#13 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (17522 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Could go either way. Both have advantages over one another in some areas, and both are nearly identical to one another in all other areas.

So would you say its a tie?

#14 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@mrdecepticonleader: I am saying a case could be made for either side. I see it as a perfect 5/10 split for both parties.
#15 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (17522 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@mrdecepticonleader: I am saying a case could be made for either side. I see it as a perfect 5/10 split for both parties.

Uh huh.

#16 Posted by Sci_Fi_Rulez (1059 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Could go either way. Both have advantages over one another in some areas, and both are nearly identical to one another in all other areas.

Exactly and their the same person

#17 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sci_Fi_Rulez: True, but Vader has superior knowledge and experience. If we are referring to Anakin as of the end of EP 3, he still wasn't fully under control and was torn. Vader also has superior strength, and Anakin superior speed and agility.

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#18 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

What strength feats does Vader have that supersede Anakin's?

#19 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

Superior physical strength, I mean. Not that much of a factor.

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#20 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Again, what strength feats does Vader have that supersede Anakin's?

#22 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova: I fail to see what makes that better than Anakin tearing apart spider droids with his hands, slamming his lightsaber on Ventress' with enough force to shatter stone beneath her, or throwing saber blows at Dooku with the power of a meteor strike.
#23 Posted by Erik (31480 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467:

Maybe he is trying to say without the force augmenting the physical strength. Though I have no idea why since there is no reason why either one could not amplify strength with force in my opinion.

#24 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik: Well, both augment their strength with the Force, hence how they can perform superhuman strength feats (though in Vader's case, his cybernetic arms are stronger than a human's already, but then, Anakin's right forearm also seems to be stronger than a human's). My point was that the strength feats that both have via Force-enhancement appear even. I somewhat doubt his point was without the Force bolstering their physicality, since we generally just assume they do anyway, but we could wait for Nova to clarify.
 
That I've seen, Vader has a longer list of strength feats than Anakin, but the ones that Anakin does have are of equal merit. To add to the list of Vader strength showings, Vader has also pulled a durasteel door off a ship and collapsed a crystalline column. These feats are impressive but not more so than Anakin's showings, in my opinion.
#25 Posted by Erik (31480 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467:

If it came down to them trying to wrestle each other even with the force boosting their strength as much as they could, who would come out on top?

Even better, what makes Vader different than Anakin other than just cybernetics? What advantages does Vader even have?

#26 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@Erik: Experience, knowledge, and perhaps wisdom.

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#28 Posted by JigglyJiggletowns (54 posts) - - Show Bio

Either way, he loses.

#29 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@JigglyJiggletowns: Who?

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#30 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@mrdecepticonleader: I am saying a case could be made for either side. I see it as a perfect 5/10 split for both parties.

Go ahead and make a case for Anakin. I don't see that he has any advantages that would make up for 20 years of darkside knowledge and personal tutoring from one of the most powerful force users of all time.

I'm open to ideas though.

#31 Posted by JigglyJiggletowns (54 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: No, I was just saying that since they're both... Well. Anakin Skywalker.

#32 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy: Galen Marek isn't one of the most powerful......

Yoda, Mace, Sidious, Luke, Abeloth, Ones of Mortis, Satele Shan are more powerful. Darth Nihilus can drain him. I cannot say as to whether Exar Kun might beat him. Darth Traya also beats him due to drain.

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#33 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@JigglyJiggletowns: I think the OP either meant, duplicates of exact same power and everything else, or who was more powerful.

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#34 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Baldy: Galen Marek isn't one of the most powerful......

Yoda, Mace, Sidious, Luke, Abeloth, Ones of Mortis, Satele Shan are more powerful. Darth Nihilus can drain him. I cannot say as to whether Exar Kun might beat him. Darth Traya also beats him due to drain.

I'm confused. I was referring to the fact that Vader was an apprentice of Sidious and the extra twenty or so years of darkside knowledge he would have gained from his master would be too big of an advantage for Anakin to overcome.

I never mentioned Marek.

#35 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@Baldy: Woops, my bad. I thought you said he tutored one of the most powerful Force-users when you said he was tutored by one of the most powerful Force-users. Which is correct.

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#36 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Baldy: Woops, my bad. I thought you said he tutored one of the most powerful Force-users when you said he was tutored by one of the most powerful Force-users. Which is correct.

Oh I see. Makes sense now.

#37 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@Silver2467:

If it came down to them trying to wrestle each other even with the force boosting their strength as much as they could, who would come out on top?

Even better, what makes Vader different than Anakin other than just cybernetics? What advantages does Vader even have?

In a contest of pure brute strength, it would be stalemate, in my opinion. Their strength feats are level. 
 
I will answer your second question in my response to Baldy below. 
 

@Baldy

said:

@Silver2467 said:

@mrdecepticonleader: I am saying a case could be made for either side. I see it as a perfect 5/10 split for both parties.

Go ahead and make a case for Anakin. I don't see that he has any advantages that would make up for 20 years of darkside knowledge and personal tutoring from one of the most powerful force users of all time.

I'm open to ideas though.

I presume this is Vader at the height of his power and skill, which would constitute RotJ Vader. Vader possesses greater knowledge, control, and versatility, while Anakin has superior speed, agility, and Force reserves. Vader is more hindered the in sense that his overall potential in the Force has been diminished, and because of this, Anakin can last in a protracted fight for a longer period of time than Vader can. During Anakin's duel with Dooku, Tyranus' Force reserves were reaching their limit while Anakin's energies were still in supply. An equivalent effect is possible here, supposing that the engagement of these two still continues until such a time. This is a notable advantage in Anakin's favor. Another is Vader's cybernetics. While these can be useful, they can also be a detriment. Vader's armor is extremely durable, enough to withstand explosions and tons of weight. But if vital portions of his life support are rendered inoperable, then he will be crippled. Of course, it is advantageous for Vader to be able to resist more pain and injury because of both his cybernetics and the Force (however, Anakin has enhanced durability as well; he handled being smashed through doors by Durge and survived rubble being dropped on him), but if Anakin strikes down any of Vader's crucial equipment in his system network, that lessens Vader's chances. It is also worth noting that Anakin has displayed what appears to be Technometry. He manipulated the functions of two B2 droids and had them fire at one another. You could argue this was simply Telekinesis, but given the fact that the droids outright targeted one another and shot afterward speaks of more precision with regards to their technological settings. In fairness, Anakin has only used this once to my knowledge; so there is no guarantee it will be attempted here. But were Anakin to harness this power against Vader, it could be a huge obstacle to the latter. 
Skill is arguable. Vader and Anakin's forms are different. Anakin prefers standard Djem So, while alternating other forms such as Shien, Ataru, and Niman on occasion, while Vader combined techniques from every form into his core Djem So style as a method of compensating for his decreased mobility post-Mustafar. Which one is the better fighter is not so obvious. Vader has: defeated five Jedi at once on Kashyyyk, defeated the Dark Woman, defeated Roan Shryne, defeated Celeste Morne, fought equally with Obi-Wan, fought equally with an amped Darth Maul, and fought equally with Luke, among others. Anakin has: defeated several MagnaGuards, defeated Asajj Ventress, defeated Dooku's Doppelganger, defeated Dooku, defeated Cin Drallig, and defeated several Jedi in the Temple, among others. There is little disparity in sheer combat prowess, that I can see. Both have fought distinctly adroit combatants. Maul, for instance, has beaten Anoon Bondara, Darsha Assant, Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan, and Vader was a match for him. Luke has beaten Kharys, Lumiya, and stalemated Flint without interest in fighting him, and Vader was a match for him. Ventress has beaten three Jedi at once, stalemated/beaten Obi-Wan, and beaten Jai Maruk twice, among others, and Anakin has defeated her. Dooku has beaten Quinlan Vos, beaten Obi-Wan, beaten Mace Windu, and beaten General Grievous, among others, and Anakin defeated him. The quality of their respective combat feats yields no legitimate discrepancy in raw adeptness. Now, in case anyone wants to address Anakin's duel on Mustafar, don't. Anakin's loss in that instance was entirely reliant on the circumstances which mired that one single duel. He thought Padme had betrayed him and was failing to focus his powers and skill well against Obi-Wan because of their relationship. Against Cin Drallig, as well as numerous other Jedi in the Temple, Anakin suffered no loss of control comparable to his incoherent mindset on Mustafar. So as a whole, combat skill vs combat skill, Anakin and Vader parallel one another. 
 
Power is similarly arguable. Both possess nearly identical destructive capacity. Vader telekinetically destroyed a cathedral in Darth Vader and the Lost Command. Anakin released a Force Scream that destroyed a thirty meter tall, ninety meter wide dome facility in Labyrinth of Evil. Telekinetic power is probably even. Vader's best showing pertaining to TK is the aforementioned cathedral collapsing. He also has various other feats such as throwing Y-Wings, throwing V-Wings, crushing giant droids, knocking over monumental trees, tearing apart a landing platform, hurling away multiple enemies, and so on. Anakin's best telekinetic showing was in Clone Wars Adventures when he moved a Conqueror-class dreadnaught, which appeared to be a hundred or more meters in length. And of course, he has his own assortment of TK showings, between lifting the rubble of the dome facility that he brought down off of himself, hand-waving away the walkway that Dooku dropped on Obi-Wan, wrecking Ventress, moving Durge's escape pod, pushing two immense droids together, throwing stone pillars, throwing trees, and so on. Both Anakin and Vader have demonstrated Lightsaber Throw before as another add-on to their telekinetic dexterity.
 
Versatility passes to Vader, which is one of his positions of ascendancy over Anakin, but many of the powers Vader has learned would probably never come into play. Vader has shown powers such as Beast Control, Fear, Deflection, Absorption, Barrier, Heal, Breath Control, Alter Environment, Dun Moch, immovability, etc. Anakin has shown powers such as Beast Control, Barrier, Heal, Technometry, Instinctive Astrogation, and so on. The four powers in Vader's arsenal that I can see arising in the midst of a fight would be Telekinesis, Deflection, Dun Moch, and Alter Environment. Vader has a reputed propensity for Deflection and seemingly blocked a lightsaber blow with it in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, which give credence to its appearing here. Dun Moch, Vader employed against Luke on Bespin and on the second Death Star (to minor success). Alter Environment, Vader brought to bear on Bespin also when he summoned winds in his duel with Luke. Telekinesis, Vader has used that in duels...most of the time (no further explanation on that should be required). Now for Anakin's powers, Anakin used Barrier in his first duel against Dooku to obstruct Dooku's backward march. Telekinesis, Anakin has used against Ventress, Dooku, and Obi-Wan. As a whole, there are probably not many other abilities that either one have that would become a factor in this match. 
 
Now to exposit on a few of Vader's capabilities, should Vader conjure winds, that would probably do nothing but annoy Anakin. Unlike Luke who was incapable of rooting himself in place, Anakin could plausibly shrug it off. More than that, Anakin is like Luke in that he has a very intuitive aptitude for the Force. He has called on the Force for applications he never received any training for and instead simply guided it naturally. An ability such as Alter Environment (which Anakin has expressed interest in before) could well be a power he might replicate. This is speculative to an extent but not impossible. Do I think that if Anakin did return Vader's wind manipulation back on him that it would give him the win? No. Alter Environment should hardly be especially meaningful here one way or another. My point is that it probably will not service Vader well, both because Anakin could endure its effects and conceivably because he could intuit its use. 
 
Dun Moch is the main concern here but not necessarily for Anakin. Vader is proficient with Dun Moch, but he only has a few feats with it, none incredibly impressive. Luke managed to surpass Vader's Dun Moch in RotJ and even in TESB to an extent as well. We also have to consider Dooku's Dun Moch against Anakin RotS. Where Dooku meant to weaken Anakin's morale with Dun Moch, he instead ended up cementing Anakin's drive to kill him, which he did. Dun Moch backfired in that instance. Vader has the potential to both weaken Anakin's resolve or bolster it depending on variable stipulations. Anakin is fairly vulnerable in a mental and emotional sense, and obviously, Vader knows everything about him because he is him. But here is the problem: Would Vader be willing to taunt himself? Vader hates himself, which suggests he might be willing to, but on the other hand, Vader also laments what Anakin did and became, which suggests he might not. Additionally, one of the main aspects Vader could demean Anakin for would be his relationship with Padme. That would be Anakin's most susceptible trait, but honestly, I have no confidence Vader would opt to do that. As I said, he regrets Anakin's mistakes, one of them being his killing Padme. It is highly doubtful Vader would attack that issue, and with that in mind, it might discourage him from undermining Anakin at all. Vader himself could also experience doubts of his own when seeing himself, which again degrades the likelihood of Vader using Dun Moch here. So really, Dun Moch and more specifically Vader's thoughts about himself are something of a wild card. Vader could use Dun Moch successfully and overwhelm Anakin with it, or he could use Dun Moch ineptly and amplify Anakin's powers with it. Or maybe he will never use Dun Moch at all.

TK is the one power that is most likely to be utilized during a duel; so with that being equalized, power and skill will be difficult to determine the outcome of the fight. Judging purely on power and skill, it really could pass to either side. Having established that, Anakin is slightly faster. Vader has thrown blows invisibly fast, thrown blows faster than thought, produced conglomerate blurring motions of his blade, produced afterimages of his blade, deflected torrents of blaster bolts, deflected blaster bolts from turret emplacements, and matched speed with characters like Luke and Darth Maul. Anakin conversely has thrown blows invisibly fast, thrown blows faster than thought, produced conglomerate blurring motions that covered his entire body in light/covered people's entire line of vision in light, produced afterimages of his blade, deflected torrents of blaster bolts from armies of shooters, reacted to lightning bolts, reacted to ships flying at sublight speeds, ran imperceptibly fast, and fought faster than characters like Dooku and Obi-Wan. Will speed spell an auto-win for Anakin? No, and of course, Vader can still fight Anakin in spite of the speed incongruity. But it could still be a point of duress for Vader, especially if Vader's Force reserves began to decline while Anakin is still able to continue attacking with his full potency in play.
 
Knowledge and experience stands as Vader's edge. His comprehension of the Force is more faceted than Anakin's, which could afford anticipation of how Anakin chooses to exercise the Force and inspiration of how best to counteract Anakin's exertions with the Force. Vader is more tactically competent than Anakin as well. This is one of Vader's primary advantages. Depending on what the area of battle is, Vader could elect to incorporate the environment into his strategy during his duel with Anakin. Contrarily, Anakin has never been inclined toward adaptive tactics beyond simply testing a new power against a foe. His advance would probably only consist of a direct confrontational fighting, while Vader could mirror that and adopt a decidedly more foreseeing and methodical approach. Anakin is unlikely to provide much challenge in that department or avoid beforehand whatever plan Vader develops. 
 
Overall? This is too close to call. What I detailed above is not a case for Anakin so much as an analysis of how their individual attributes contend with one another. Both are so alike and so different in so many ways that isolating which one is conclusively better is nearly impossible to surmise. You can choose for yourself who you favor. Personally, I maintain what I submitted on the previous page: 

@Silver2467

 said: 

Could go either way. Both have advantages over one another in some areas, and both are nearly identical to one another in all other areas.

#38 Posted by Erik (31480 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467:

Nice!

I have another question though. You said Vader has smaller reserves than Anakin. I would have thought having expanded his knowledge of the force would have increased not only the versatility of his abilities, but much like working out I assumed it would have also increased his strength and "stamina" with use of the force. Why is this not the case?

#39 Posted by Dracade102 (8167 posts) - - Show Bio

Either way, it would count as suicide. Wouldn't Vader just vanish from existence if he killed his past self?

#40 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@Silver2467:

Nice!

I have another question though. You said Vader has smaller reserves than Anakin. I would have thought having expanded his knowledge of the force would have increased not only the versatility of his abilities, but much like working out I assumed it would have also increased his strength and "stamina" with use of the force. Why is this not the case?

Because Anakin has superior Force potential. When concerning applying the Force for various purposes, two factors have to be considered: 1) potential and 2) skill. Anakin has more of the former while Vader has more of the latter. Force potential is essentially how much capacity a character has for drawing on the Force. While they do need discipline to apply it consistently and competently, even an untrained Force sensitive can use the Force instinctively, though not with much control; training gives them control but not more potential. Let me illustrate it this way: If Vader were to live as long as Yoda and train in the Force for that whole time, he wouldn't continually become more powerful because he has a limit to his potential; he would grow in power until he reaches his upper limit and then stop. Whereas, if Anakin lived as long as Yoda and trained in the Force for that whole time, he would reach his limit too, but his limitations would be fewer than Vader's because his potential is more vast. Basically, a Force sensitive can increase their power and mastery with the Force, but they can't increase their potential with the Force. Anakin, despite only having a little more than a decade of training, has a titanic amount of energy he can call on from the Force, far more than what Vader has the ability to. Vader, however, is more trained with the Force, which allows him to direct it with improved efficiency and skill, but the amount of energies in his reserves are less than Anakin's due to his underlying potential being inferior.
#41 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't care who wins. I'm loving the discussion here. :D

#42 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Nice.... but if this is Anakin by the end of ROTS he would still be not fully controlled and a bit torn.

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#43 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova: Not enough to make a difference. As I said, Anakin fought in the Jedi Temple with few, if any personal hindrances. His duel with Obi-Wan was a separate scenario.
#44 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: A duel with himself might make a difference. In any sense, Vader wins here in my opinion due to superior knowledge/experience, and possibly strength. Vader's taunts are also more likely a bad thing for him though.... Yeah, with those hindrances he still defeated Cin Drallig.

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#45 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said:

@Silver2467: A duel with himself might make a difference.

Anakin has no knowledge of Vader. Vader knows about him because Anakin is Vader's past. Anakin has never seen what he will turn out to be.
 

possibly strength

I have still seen nothing that shows Vader possesses greater strength than Anakin.
#47 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said:

@Silver2467: Like I said before, Ferus was supposed to surprise him with this bellyflop/body slam thing which rebounded off Vader's body and sent Ferus through a wall. Ferus has wrestled down a 120-kilo guy in prison and created force shields around him that made him impervious to most of the charge from the same 120-kilo dude and blaster bolts. He did knock over this stone door like thing but it was cracked and broken. When Vader grabbed Ferus in Secret Weapon, Ferus almost got knocked out instantly even when he tried to cushion the attack with the Force. Vader shattered part of a stone wall with a single punch and knocked down a pole that shattered the stairs when it came down by ramming into the pole.

And like I said:

@Silver2467

 said: 

@ShootingNova: I fail to see what makes that better than Anakin tearing apart spider droids with his hands, slamming his lightsaber on Ventress' with enough force to shatter stone beneath her, or throwing saber blows at Dooku with the power of a meteor strike.

 
For the record, the feat of Ferus being sent through a wall after hitting Vader's body sounds like TK rather than strength, unless by "rebounded" you mean Vader actually put in physical exertion. "Rebounded" speaks of TK. 

he still saw that but can't remember it.

And it therefore means nothing.
#48 Posted by ShootingNova (15346 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Well, that's true, but I was pointing out that he did see the future once.

Rebounded, I don't mean TK, I mean the blow glanced off his body.

Anakin tearing apart spider droids with his hands

Well, that's about the same as Vader breaking poles/doors/walls in the Jedi Temple. Like, after he supported the two poles while telekinetically lifting another, he threw the poles so hard they smashed walls and doors from either side of the temple while still taking care of the pole on top, and then he threw it down hard enough to make a mini-earthquake that knocked Ferus to the floor. But the last feat was TK.

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#49 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said:

Well, that's about the same as Vader breaking poles/doors/walls in the Jedi Temple.

Were these poles or walls constructed out of durasteel? 
 
Regardless, I never said Anakin's strength feats are better. I see no disparity between Anakin and Vader in physical strength.