Darth Vader vs Anakin

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#151 juiceboks  Moderator

@erkan12 said:

Vader can ragdoll Anakin anytime he wants. Anakin's force feats are not impressive as Vader's, and he also failed to overpower Obi-Wan in a force contest in the RotS canon. He get force choke from Ventress, get force push from Ventress, get force push from Barriss Offee, shrugged off from Savage Opress's force wave, get force choke from Dooku, get ragdolled by Dooku, Anakin is about at the same level with Obi-Wan in terms of combative force powers.

Anakin's only advantage here is speed and agility. (Mostly because Vader lacks too much) The only reason Anakin managed to beat Dooku was his advantage on his sheer strength which is overpowered Count's makashi because his elegant makashi was weak to strong kinetic attacks. Vader doesn't have this kind of weakness, Vader is strong and durable, more powerful in the force (which can make difference here because of Anakin's force power level) , he takes the majority.

If all of this was true then Grievous should have been able to stomp Dooku by virtue of being substantially stronger than him.

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#152  Edited By Erkan12

@juiceboks: Grievous is not strong as you people think. (Especially in canon) Neverthless, he has some strength but then he is using makashi, Shii-cho, ataru, soresu & jar'kai, he is using almost every form except Juyo and Djem-so (which only these two produces enough kinetic power)

Grievous and his guards were dancing. Going through their programmed motions. An Ataro attack answered by Shii-Cho; Soresu answered by Lusma... Dooku couldn't suffer another moment of it. "No, no, stop, stop," he yelled, coming to his feet and striding to the middle of the training circle, his arms extended to both sides. When he was certain that he had their attention, he swung to Grievous. "Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters."

----Taken from ; Labyrinth of Evil

He can't use his physical and kinetic advantage on lightsaber duel properly, unlike Djem-So user Anakin or Juyo users Savage, Maul etc.

Even if he can use Djem-so or Juyo, since he didn't train himself on a specific form (instead he learned all of them, didn't mastered himself on one style) , and again he can't perfom his kinetic power in a lightsaber duel properly.

His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.

---Taken from ; Revenge of the Sith Novelization

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#153  Edited By ShootingNova

Grievous knew all the forms:

Dooku had taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling--in the Jedi arts--made them lethal opponents.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

Simply because he was using a select few against the Magnaguards is impertinent towards what he would use against a Force-sensitive such as Tyranus, especially because Grievous has fought the Count many times and is aware of the Count's style and almost certainly what it would be weak to.

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If we want to play canon only, then Vader has no telekinetic feats to show that he would ragdoll Anakin. Besides, Vader does not just ragdoll his opponents with the Force, neither in canon nor in the EU.

Now, if we allow the EU, then this is a good fight. Both of them are similarly matched in skill, strength and sheer power. Vader's key edges are superior technique, superior emotional control, greater versatility of power, durability, and experience, only one of which will likely factor into this fight (durability). Anakin, on the other hand, is substantially more agile and noticeably faster than Vader is, both of which would play a larger part in a duel than Vader's resiliency.

Unquestionably, Vader parallels him in the most pertinent areas, but Anakin would likely deliver a 6/10 just by being faster and more agile. That being said, Vader has the edge of knowing Anakin's form very well, whilst his form would appear very unorthodox and unusual to Anakin, which could make it an even split. Despite that, Anakin could still win. His vast Force potential can and has allowed him to perform at levels above his natural level, which, if it happens here, would give him the win. Vader, on the other hand, has much more limited Force potential, so there is nothing to imply that anything of the sort would happen on him. Regarding Anakin's emotional instability, it doesn't need to be brought up. It has hindered him before, but it has also allowed him to tap into the Force in darker ways and thus amplify his performance, so it could go either way.

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Vader

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@erkan12 said:

@juiceboks: Grievous is not strong as you people think. (Especially in canon) Neverthless, he has some strength but then he is using makashi, Shii-cho, ataru, soresu & jar'kai, he is using almost every form except Juyo and Djem-so (which only these two produces enough kinetic power)

Grievous and his guards were dancing. Going through their programmed motions. An Ataro attack answered by Shii-Cho; Soresu answered by Lusma... Dooku couldn't suffer another moment of it. "No, no, stop, stop," he yelled, coming to his feet and striding to the middle of the training circle, his arms extended to both sides. When he was certain that he had their attention, he swung to Grievous. "Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters."

----Taken from ; Labyrinth of Evil

He can't use his physical and kinetic advantage on lightsaber duel properly, unlike Djem-So user Anakin or Juyo users Savage, Maul etc.

Even if he can use Djem-so or Juyo, since he didn't train himself on a specific form (instead he learned all of them, didn't mastered himself on one style) , and again he can't perfom his kinetic power in a lightsaber duel properly.

His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.

---Taken from ; Revenge of the Sith Novelization

How strong do people say he is?

Because canonically it states he's 10x stronger than a normal human

He is built to dominate. The ceramic armorplast plates protecting limbs and torso and face can stop a burst from a starfighter laser cannon. Those indestructible arms are ten time stronger then a human

Revenge of the Sith

And he was physically trumping Obi-wan throughout TCW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn7o_Cz9rVs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ja7rgrRNHU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1BqZzIWSW0

the last one with a physical attack caused Kenobi pain and forced a retreat.

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#160  Edited By Noone301994
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#161  Edited By okayalright_44

@noone301994: So bandwagon fallacy is your reasoning? Hmm. No wonder you're running away from a debate like that scared puppy running from the cops.

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#162  Edited By WollfMyth209

This is a debetable topic, but I would back up Anakin here. IIRC Vader's best TK feats are lifting trees and TIE fighters, while Anakin's best feat is moving a Separatist dreadnought, so Anakin is likely more powerful.

No Caption Provided

I think that the only advantage Vader has over Anakin is wisdom and expirience so he might be capable of combating him because he has knowledge of his former self. Though that still isn't going to factor in too much. In terms of skill Anakin kept up with the likes of Count Dooku, stalemated Obi-Wan while hindered and defeated Asajj Ventress, Shaak Ti etc. While most of these are not comparable to Vader as duelists, Obi-Wan and Count Dooku definetly are, I might even say Dooku is a superior duelist than Vader. Anakin is also faster with his speed being described like a blue blur. His strenght is comparable or equal to Vader since his blows were described as being as strong as a meteor. I'd say Anakin wins 6-7/10.

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I can't help but think that Anakin looks like he's experiencing an intense feeling down there

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#164  Edited By ShootingNova

Vader is not less powerful than Anakin. He has telekinetically called down cathedrals, Crushed tremendous droids, called down humungous trees, melted durasteel, and so on, and this was mostly decades before his prime.

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and this was mostly decades before his prime.

Did Vader actually do anything significant saber/Force wise close to his prime?

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@i_like_swords: He fought evenly with RotJ Luke and beat TESB Luke.

Telekinetically, I don't see much difference, but telepathically, Vader improved considerably. He was unable to penetrate an untrained Leia's mind in ANH, and this was after half an hour of torture and drug administration. Of course, Leia is both naturally very strong in the Force and she also possesses strong willpower, but she was also untrained and weakened (though Vader did note that she displayed Jedi-like control nonetheless, so it's more of a good showing for Leia than a low showing for Vader).

However, he could outright read Luke's mind in RotJ, and RotJ Luke has impressive TP feats.

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@shootingnova: Ah, makes sense. Seems like his overall skill improved between ANH and RotJ but his power stayed mostly the same.

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#168  Edited By ShootingNova

@i_like_swords: His Force potential was heavily stunted compared to his prior incarnation, but that doesn't mean he can't improve, especially since we know he did.

Now, because Vader doesn't have many showings of TK in the RotJ period, it could just be a lack of feats. Then again, his TP advancement could either indicate that his TK also improved, or it might not.

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@i_like_swords: His Force potential was heavily stunted compared to his prior incarnation, but that doesn't mean he can't improve, especially since we know he did.

Was it ever noted that he got more powerful in the Force, in terms of TK or in some combative manner?

Now, because Vader doesn't have many showings of TK in the RotJ period, it could just be a lack of feats. Then again, his TP advancement could either indicate that his TK also improved, or it might not.

Eh, to me it just seems like his combative skill overall improved. He created a hybrid Form to suit his physical needs, showing great lightsaber skill, and gained better control over the Force i.e, better combative telepathy against stronger opponents.

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@i_like_swords: It was noted that in RotJ, he was more powerful than he had ever been before.

Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground...but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.

Source: Return of the Jedi

If anything, the fact that the quote says that his power was greater than it had ever been would imply that he was more powerful than he had been as Anakin Skywalker.

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@shootingnova: Interesting.. pretty straight to the point. The writer couldn't have been accounting for the Anakin's telekinetic feats when that was written so there is room for flexibility there.. that's kind of what irks me about Star Wars continuity. Something new can come in at any point in the timeline and disrupt established norms.

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@i_like_swords: Vader never accomplished his feats at the time of the novel's publishing, either, and it is inferrable. He lost Force potential, but not Force power, when he was maimed, and he would have likely improved, even if it was only scantly, in the following decades.

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I think Vader is more skilled and slightly more powerful than Anakin. Although Anakin is noticeably faster, Vader has dealt with faster opponents than himself before. Vader would win 6/10.

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Anakin is at least as good as Luke, who matched Vader perfectly in RotJ and was able to obtain the advantage at one point in the duel prior to Force Rage. Anakin matches Luke/Vader in strength and skill, but is noticeably faster than either and can match Vader's Force power or be approachable enough to render it useless.

I would still defend Anakin for 6-7/10. His emotions can hinder him to give Vader the win, but they can also amplify his performance which makes it a more decisive win on his part.

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Anakin is at least as good as Luke, who matched Vader perfectly in RotJ and was able to obtain the advantage at one point in the duel prior to Force Rage. Anakin matches Luke/Vader in strength and skill, but is noticeably faster than either and can match Vader's Force power or be approachable enough to render it useless.

I would still defend Anakin for 6-7/10. His emotions can hinder him to give Vader the win, but they can also amplify his performance which makes it a more decisive win on his part.

I agree with all this.

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#176  Edited By Erkan12

This should be pretty clear. Anakin is a better duelist, Vader is much more powerful force user. Anakin has two high level force feat, and both of them are from the pre-RotS era. Anakin's force powers are retconned in RotS and TCW, otherwise he could simply beat Obi-Wan with the force, but he failed, The reason is ; Anakin's force mastery as a Jedi simply isn't good enough, he had to experience extreme pain to gain superior force powers like he did in Mustafar after his defeat against Kenobi, or he had to wait like 10 years more as a Jedi.

If this is going to be a pure saber duel, like the one in RotJ ; Luke vs. Vader, then Anakin wins the majority, if not, Vader for the majority due to his superior force powers.

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#177  Edited By Freedon_nadd_1
No Caption Provided

Here I have to go with Darth Vader,8/10 rounds...

That 20% "potential" that he lost it after the incident on Mustafar,isn't quite a big difference though...

And Vader can keep up with Anakin's speed if he auguments himself(yet he may not use some of his deadly Force powers)

And while Anakin had a greater raw power in Force,it is a slightly difference between the old-self and the new-self. The new-self has learned to command it better than his old-self who was kind of stubborn and "mad-er" in a duel,and to "susceptible" to deception...

Also Vader's suit offers him a greater physical strength,a greater resistance to exhaustion...

Darth Vader takes that!!!

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Not sure.

Vader raw power showing have impressed me more on a consistent basis, he also knows more Force abilities (such as Force absoprtion and Alter Enviroment,) while Anakin's skill and speed would be above Vader, if only slightly. Vader is obviously more durable, physically stronger and sporting the superior pain tolerence. As I've said before, it could go either way.

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I still think Anakin can win this. He's more skilled, equally as powerful, and much faster and more agile. Vader being more refined, experienced and durable can only get him so far. Anakin wins 6-7/10.

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#180  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

Anakin isn't an equal for Vader in the power department. Besides, that incosistent feat with the Dreadnought, what has he done that surpasses, or equals: collapsing a Cathedral, tearing a room apart simply because he was angry, casually tossing around 1 ton + plus- builders, Crushing a droid that dwarfed him in size, tblasting a hole through a Rebel Base wall, casually crushing flying TIE Fighters in the Vacuum of space, moments after he deflecting their fire, TK'ed Starkiller, held a TIE Fighter in place while it's Thrusters were in full effect, etc, etc. I simply fail to see Anakin as being an equal or superior to Vader in terms of aw Force power. Surely he's close, but I find the difference to be notcible, at least, to me.

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Anakin's feat with the Dreadnaught is in no way inconsistent. It's just a showing of his immense Force power. Anakin lost Force reserves after the event on Mustafar, which is why at the end of the novel he didn't have nearly as much Force power as he did before. He obviously improved again, but suggesting that it's impossible for Anakin to be more powerful than Vader is a pretty tremendous stretch, especially when Anakin's Force potential is so great it can allow him to operate on a level greater than that of his normal level.

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Still Vader. Better duelist, better versatility, more powerful. Anakin being faster and more agile wouldn't make much difference, as vader has dealt with faster and more agile opponents in the past.

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The fact that Anakin, struggled with far less weight when he was in his prime, proves otherwise, TBH. My point of consistency was to illustrate, that Anakin, at normal levels, shouldn't have pulled off that feat the way he did at that point in time. In terms of normal consistency, Vader operates at a higher level than Anakin in regards to their average showings. And Vader feats are flat out superior disregarding the Dreadnought showing, and even with it, I would debate that Vaders overall showing are more superb.

Also, I never said it was "impossible" for Anakin to be equal or more powerful than, Vader - I simply said I don't see it.

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@shootingnova:

Anakin's feat with the Dreadnaught is in no way inconsistent

How is it not? He hasn't displayed this sort of raw power before. Consistently he's in the multi ton range with TK not the several hundred tonne range. . .

Force potential is nice and all but if he could so easily jump to a greater level he could have ragdolled Dooku with TK when he first fought him.

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Anakin should win for reasons stated previously

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#186  Edited By Erkan12

Anakin doesn't even have a single impressive Canon Force feat now, he is Obi-Wan level at best with current Canon feats (as with Mustafar duel where they stalemate in a force contest), one can argue that Anakin's Force defense is weaker than Obi-Wan's, since he get force pushed by even Barriss Offee.

On the other hand, Vader had already two high level Canon Force feat, which should be enough to stomp Anakin who has a weak force defense.

Stopping (almost crushing) a walking AT-TA with the Force.

No Caption Provided

Source : Star Wars 002 (2015) - Canon

And Collapsing a building rooftop from a very high distance.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Source : Star Wars 001 (2015) - Canon

Force mastery difference between them is too much to make this even, Vader wins the majority.

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Anakin.

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#188  Edited By jrupert1

Probably Vader, it goes more in line with George Lucas' beliefs as well. Any difference in mobility is minimal, not enough to be the defining factor when Vader has his younger self beat in everything else.

People like to undersell his agility but he has his fair share of speed feats in the suit, several before even hitting his peak as Vader.

like jumping across the room to block a blast shot done in close quarters.

No Caption Provided

Or dodging close range blaster fire, causing it to hit the person behind and taking out the person who shot before they could react.

No Caption Provided

His suit has built in factors to compensate for his muscle and nerve damage. He trained himself to overcome his new environment, and uses force speed (at a degree of control beyond what he had before) in line with his movements to make him so fast people can't even see him move.

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#189  Edited By Erkan12

@devilsmaydie: Mobility and agility difference isn't minimal, but he can compensate those weaknesses with his tactical mind and skills.

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How is it not? He hasn't displayed this sort of raw power before. Consistently he's in the multi ton range with TK not the several hundred tonne range. . .

Force potential is nice and all but if he could so easily jump to a greater level he could have ragdolled Dooku with TK when he first fought him.

I was using Force potential as an argument for that feat, which would explain why he performed or was able to perform that showing as a padawan.

You don't get to pick when you perform better as a result of your Force potential. The Force itself dictates that.

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#191  Edited By Zapan871

@shootingnova: But Force potential is only supposed to measure how much more powerful you can become, regardless of how fast or slow your progresses are.

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#192  Edited By mcdavid

Vader is the true OG. Vader stomps.

Besides Anakin is super lame. Cant believe they actually made 3 films just to introduce that character.

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Vader isn't capable of nearly defeating RotS Kenobi while hindered, and in the process nearly crushing his bones under the weight of his strikes. He lacks the ability to tap into a pool of reserves sufficient to curbstomp Count Dooku. He isn't frequently compared to Yoda in and out of universe. He isn't "vastly" more powerful than Anakin from TCW S5, who already had a couple of wins over Count Dooku and Ventress. Vader isn't capable of killing someone as capable as Cin Drallig with one arm.

These all apply to Anakin, however.

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Vader.

Anakin goes crying for Padme.

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Vader isn't capable of nearly defeating RotS Kenobi while hindered, and in the process nearly crushing his bones under the weight of his strikes. He lacks the ability to tap into a pool of reserves sufficient to curbstomp Count Dooku. He isn't frequently compared to Yoda in and out of universe. He isn't "vastly" more powerful than Anakin from TCW S5, who already had a couple of wins over Count Dooku and Ventress. Vader isn't capable of killing someone as capable as Cin Drallig with one arm.

These all apply to Anakin, however.

No, but Vader would probably beat Kenobi under normal circumstances, whether it be a duel or in an all out confrontation, and if they did fight he won't be suffering from CIS or emotional hindrance. The next point with Dooku is true but also disregarding some of the circumstances of the fight. Tyranus had been strained from fending of both Jedi. When it came to facing Anakin alone he was already at a disadvantage because of this and he was expecting Palpetine to stop the confrontation. If we include these facto's then I think your use of the term "curbstomp" is somewhat hyperbolous. Never the less, he would dominate Vader in the same fashion if he tapped into the same rage.

The last point was my real Caveat with this post. Cin drallig has zero feats and getting curbstomped (which would be a good use of the word) by Anakin while emotionally hindered doesn't add anything to his own capabilities, in fact it just shows us how poor of a fighter Dralig really was.

This is how the fight should go down imo:

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@redranger: No, but Vader would probably beat Kenobi under normal circumstances, whether it be a duel or in an all out confrontation

And regardless of whether or not that is true, it would still be an incredibly difficult duel. Anakin nearly beating Obi-Wan until his use of electronic manipulation which saved his life, while hindered, is better than anything Vader has to offer.

and if they did fight he won't be suffering from CIS or emotional hindrance.

That doesn't make him better than Anakin. If anything Anakin would go into a rage fighting Vader, opposed to feeling conflicted about fighting Obi-Wan.

The next point with Dooku is true but also disregarding some of the circumstances of the fight. Tyranus had been strained from fending of both Jedi.

Indeed he had been strained. And then he removed Obi-Wan from the equation, and his reserves rejuvenated him. The Junior novel went as far as to say Dooku has limitless stamina from his augmentation.

When it came to facing Anakin alone he was already at a disadvantage because of this and he was expecting Palpetine to stop the confrontation.

Proof he was fatigued when he fought Anakin? Actually reading the novel would tell you that it was Anakin's immense fighting ability that allowed him to crush Dooku, not that Dooku lost because he was tired from fighting Obi-Wan, lol.

If we include these facto's then I think your use of the term "curbstomp" is somewhat hyperbolous.

Not at all, you're just grasping for straws because you want to support Vader.

Never the less, he would dominate Vader in the same fashion if he tapped into the same rage.

I'm glad you agree. And you know, it's great that Anakin circa Revenge of the Sith would, in all likelihood. Fighting your future Sith Lord self is a pretty stressful undertaking, don't you think?

The last point was my real Caveat with this post. Cin drallig has zero feats

Lol. Being considered one of the most physically formidable beings in the galaxy, mastering every lightsaber form, being the battlemaster and being the best Jedi in the temple at the time of Operation Knightfall (elevating him above Shaak Ti, who, as we know, wasn't curbstomped by Grievous in the same fashion as Drallig was Anakin) aren't feats? Cool.

and getting curbstomped (which would be a good use of the word) by Anakin while emotionally hindered doesn't add anything to his own capabilities, in fact it just shows us how poor of a fighter Dralig really was.

Actually, by all accounts, Drallig is considered a great fighter. Claiming that Anakin beating him somehow lowers his standing is an illogical thought process. That's like claiming Luke putting Vader on his ass just goes to show how poor of a fighter Vader is, rather than how great Luke is.

This is how the fight should go down imo:

It's a shame it doesn't do much for your argument.

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@zapan87: Actually, beings with tremendous Force potential have virtually always learned at accelerated rates and gained power in accelerated fashion.

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WildBantha88

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I never liked this match up. Vader is superior

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#199  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@i_like_swords:

Vader isn't capable of nearly defeating RotS Kenobi while hindered.

Let's not act like Anakin was the only one hindered. Obi-Wan was also hindered in the duel as well, he just let his go during the duel, while Anakin didn't.

and in the process nearly crushing his bones under the weight of his strikes.

Luckily, Vader is sporting strength feats that supersede that.

He lacks the ability to tap into a pool of reserves sufficient to curbstomp Count Dooku.

Good, but that won't really matter in this bout, as the circumstances involving his duel with Dooku won't be the same as this one.

He isn't frequently compared to Yoda in and out of universe.

Nah. He was just stated by the creator of Star Wars to be roughly equal to 80% of the Emperor's power, the same Palpatine who grew in strength after the events of Revenge of the Sith, to where he was able to drain billions, create Force Storms, and give his powers to others across an entire galaxy, and so on - therefore, eclipsing Yoda, at least marginally.

He isn't "vastly" more powerful than Anakin from TCW S5, who already had a couple of wins over Count Dooku and Ventress.

I'm not sure I'm understanding this - when did Anakin get vastly more powerful after TCW5? Is their a qoute that state as much?

Vader isn't capable of killing someone as capable as Cin Drallig with one arm.

Maybe not. But he is capable of stomping PROXY within a couple of seconds (someone who was stated by Canon to be able to perfectly mimic the dueling styles of the ones he copies). Sure he's no Dralling, but he's decent enough or besting a very skilled Jax Pavan while holding back. The latter was done, before he reached his prime, where he was far more formidable than he was in ANH. A fact, that was reiterated it two sources.

Also, in terms of pure Force power: Anakin lacks the raw Force powers on a normal basis to rag-doll someone, who was powerful enough to toss space shuttles with out showing strain, he lacks the ability to tank Lightning that can kill Rancor and atomize armored foes - Dooku's Lightning, which he has been wrecked by - pails in comparison. Anakin can't effectively put up a Force shield with less than a second to spare, that could deflect dozens upon dozens of blaster bolts, neither can he deflect a lightsaber strike with his bare hand. Anakin telepathy isn't powerful enough to cause pre-ESB Luke Skywalker to see Ormon Tagge as himself, neither do I think he's skilled, powerful, or durable enough to crush a flying TIE Fighter in the vacuum of space, casually.

All of this was done before his prime again, as sources have stated twice, that he increased in power post ANH. As I've said before, this could go either way, as both of them are sharing edges over the other.

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WildBantha88

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Vader willed himself back from the dead once *shrugs* I just think that was a badass scene