Darth Vader (E-IV) vs Cyclops (AVX)

• Battle takes place in a junkyard on Coruscant.
• Vader is in character and has a lightsaber.
• Scott is bloodlusted.

AvX Cyclops stomps this is a huge mis match.

I don't know enough about Phoenix 5 Scott to really say. Regular Scott gets stomped though. Vader goes faster than thought and as such would just speed-blitz him.

@shroudofsorrow: and Cyclops has tagged Quick silver with his optics and has feats of holding back Juggernaut for a small period, obliterating Sentinals(which have more durability than Vader) with just taking off Visor, and consistently giving Wolverine healing factor problems after having been hit a close range. All without being in Phoenix force.

Vader doesn't have faster than thought, movement, feats. He has faster than the eye movement feats on guys slower than Cyclops. Only combat feats that involve discharging his saber, deflecting blaster fire, or moving his saber while fighting at range, have been shown as "faster than thought". But those where against stormtroopers and canon fodder character. If Cyc unleashes one time it's over and since Vader has no defense against a full on blast. At least not in A New Hope timeline.

I don't see what Vader could possibly do to PF Cyclops. Vader stands ZERO chance of winning.

@earthquake_2123 said:

Now I know why Silver and JediXMan stay away from these kinds of threads.

Vader goes faster than thought:

The Dark Lord stepped into the room, scanning it. There was somethinghere...

The faint click of metallic weapons reached his ears. Faster than thought, Vader drew and ignited his lightsaber. In the same moment, small openings appeared in the walls and ceiling, and hidden blasters fired. Energy beams rained down on the Dark Lord and his soldiers. Stormtroopers cried out as blaster bolts shattered their white armor. At least a dozen bolts streaked toward Vader himself. Moving faster than the eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber blocked them all.

--Taken from Clones

But wait there's more:

Shryne fired a quick burst, then sprinted for the doorway. Behind him, his humanoid accomplices were also in motion, stunning the guards to unconsciousness and racing for the open gate.

Angling his blade, Vader deflected the bolts with intent, but by jinking and jagging Shryne managed to evade each parry. Vader leapt, his powerful prosthetic legs carrying him to the top of a broad but short flight of steps in time to see Shryne sprint across the bridge at Jedi speed, motioning to his accomplices to move Zar through the gate.

Vader leapt again, this time to the bridge, and to within only a few meters of Shryne, who spun about, dropping to one knee and firing repeatedly. This time Vader decided to show Shryne whom he was dealing with. Holding his lightsaber to one side, he raised his right hand to turn the blaster bolts.

Clearly astonished, Shryne remained on one knee, but only briefly. In an instant he had passed through the gate and was shouldering his way through the crowd outside the wall.

Vader's final leap landed him just short of the rampart. Over the heads of the milling beings, at the forward edge of a landing platform, a woman with gray-laced black hair was gesturing frantically to Shryne and his cohorts, who were already hauling Fang Zar up the platform steps.

--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

He draws and swings his lightsaber faster then the human eye could dare follow.

Faster than a human eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber was up, activated and moving. Grammel's slashed form pitched wildly, stumbled backward and tumbled over the side of the crawler. There was a lull as the stunned driver looked on in terror.

--Taken from Splinter of the Mind's Eye

He waves his lightsaber in a blur and swings it fast enough that the blurring motions appear as nothing but a bright circle.

"No," Vader assured him, "no. You overestimate yourself, child." The Dark Lord drew himself up to his full, awesome height. "I have finished playing with you."

Swinging his saber until it was no more than a blue blur in the dank air of the temple, he leaped straight up into the air. It was more than a jump, less than levitation. Out of the blue circle of energy he flung the saber.

--Taken from Splinter of the Mind's Eye

Vader can indeed move faster than the speed of thought, and much faster than a normal human can react to. Unless Cyclops could react faster than that (which I don't believe he can do, as his superhuman abilities do not extend to faster-than-normal reaction time) Vader speed-blitzes him.

Of course, that's Cyclops in general. Again, I know nothing of Phoenix 5 Cyclops, so I can't say anything about that.

I dont think Vader can do anything here unfortunately.

@iragexcudder: Neither do I, at least not concerning this amped up Cyclops. Of course it were regular Cyclops that would be a mismatch in the opposite direction.

I absolutely agree. Thor couldnt do squat against DP Cyclops..

@shroudofsorrow: I meant to saying running speed but you're right about everything you said.

How can we prove that a force-controlled lightsaber can't deflect cyke's beams?

@thanofleeze: We can't really. We can only speculate. I'd say Scott's optic blasts are more powerful than the average SW laser but it also depends on how much power Scott's putting into the blast (I'm pretty sure he can increase or decrease it's power). That said it won't really matter because this version of Cyclops could not be defeated by Thor (meaning Vader has little if any chance of winning) and regular Cyclops would be speed-blitzed by Vader.

@shroudofsorrow: Problem is you are using EU Vader when the Thread Specifically states Episode IV Vader.

@shawnbaby: Ah, that classic argument. It doesn't work, and here's why:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/star-wars-canon-classes/64300/

EU feats are perfectly acceptable because they are canon. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about this. Unless the OP explicitly says no EU feats allowed (which he didn't) then canon EU showings are valid.

Star Wars Blasters don't seem to have a lot of force behind them...whereas Cyclops Optic Blasts are Pure Force. I imagine if Vader tried to deflect the Blast it would end up something along the lines of this:

Them being canon is not the issue. The issue is that it is specifically stating that Episode IV Vader is being used. Much like it states that AVX Cyclops is being used. Only feats from Episode IV and AVX apply.

Also, Disney took a chainsaw to the EU anyway. Most of it is no longer Canon.

@shawnbaby: Not the best scan to prove it given that Cap was merely knocked back a way without any kind of injury to his person. Of course he did have his shield.

For my part, here are some of Vader's Force Deflection showings. Note that these happened before Episode IV, meaning they're valid here.

Various showing of Vader absorbing/deflecting blaster bolts:

Vader leapt again, this time to the bridge, and to within only a few meters of Shryne, who spun about, dropping to one knee and firing repeatedly. This time Vader decided to show Shryne whom he was dealing with. Holding his lightsaber to one side, he raised his right hand to turn the blaster bolts.

Clearly astonished, Shryne remained on one knee, but only briefly. In an instant he had passed through the gate and was shouldering his way through the crowd outside the wall.

--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Again he repels/absorbs multiple blaster bolts:

Vader seems to block a lightsaber blow via absorption:

The blade might have gotten past Vader's guard, but instead it glanced off the back of his upraised left hand, smoke curling from the black glove.

--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Probably not enough to block Scott's optic blasts, and again we can only speculate concerning his lightsaber blade. I would think it would probably be enough to block strikes from optic blasts though.

In any event it doesn't really matter. Regular Cyclops would be speed-blitzed before he could fire a shot, while this Cyclops here stomps by just being far too powerful for Vader to handle.

@shawnbaby: What I meant by Episode IV Vader is just the reference in time. EU feats are included up to that point, but not after.

@thanofleeze: Which just confirms it. Vader can do everything I've laid out. Which means he still gets stomped by Phoenix 5 Cyclops and speed-blitzes regular Cyclops.

@shawnbaby: Not what the OP has said and that would be a silly rule anyway. That's like saying Batman with only his feats in one single story.

And no to my knowledge the EU Canon system remains in place until further notice. Disney has not explicitly said certain things are no longer canon.

@shroudofsorrow: I used that scan purposefully...the intent was not to show that Steve was injured by the blast...only that even though the Shield Blocked the entirity of the Blast...it still blew him back. The point being that even if Vader's Lightsaber were able to block the blast....he'd still be sent flying.

@shawnbaby: Fair point, but if it won't do much or any injury to him then it won't be enough to secure a win for Scott. And again, Vader would speed-blitz normal Cyclops.

That's assuming that a Lightsaber is as effective at blocking force blasts as an unbreakable shield (hint...it isn't) . And even if all the first blast does is knock Vader off balance...it sets him up perfectly for the next shot.

And Regular Cyclops has tagged Northstar...so a Speed blitz by Vader is not a guaranteed win.

@shawnbaby said:

No? Lightsaber blades are made of pure energy and have deflected laser blasts before. I can also assure you that the blade is no more easy to destroy than Cap's shield.

Doubtful given that that's not what happened with Steve and Vader is faster than Captain America anyway.

How fast does Northstar go? And has Scott been able to consistently tag people going at that speed? Because if not then it's PIS.

1) Never said a Lightsaber couldn't deflect a laser. The difference between them is a Lightsaber is a narrow beam of Energy...while the Shield is a large Disc...it covers more area and can therefore block more. A wider beam will be a lot more difficult to block with a Lightsaber than with a shield. And cyclops can go with a much wider beam.

2) Cyclops didn't continue shooting at Steve after the initial blast...he allowed Steve time to recover.

3) Northstar tops out at near light speed. He wasn't moving nearly that fast at the time but he was still moving fast enough to be seen only as a blur. Cyclops has a good track record of tagging people faster than him. Other people he has tagged include Spider-Man, Quicksilver, Nightcrawler (while porting)

Vader can take a fª!"·$load of punishment from energy blasts. Here he is without a lightsaber, taking the full blown force lightning from Starkiller. It brings him to his knees, then he just starts talking again.

With a lightsaber in hand and full dedication, he can deflect most of that energy, and the rest he might be able to take due to his awkward durability.

This doesn't stipulate movie versions, so there is no demand for movie versions. Episode IV is simply a reference used to gauge time, in other words, all feats Vader had before and of ANH are applicable.

Not true. Disney has not cut anything yet, and what they will cut is likely to only be Post-RotJ, which won't be affecting Vader. That's assuming they will cut EU, which is not entirely confirmed. All they have done so far is condense everything into one canon class.

@night4345: Perhaps not but they do seem to operate much like a laser in that they are an energy-based projectile. I think Vader might be able to deflect a "basic" shot but if Scott goes full-power yeah, that will be more of a problem.

P5 Cyclops is an insane overmatch for Vader. And yes I understand EU Vader's abilities. The P5 were capable of molecular manipulation, single handedly defeating armies, and all kinds of things. It is not a matter of Cyke having a more powerful optic blast. There were almost no heroes that could stand up to them. Even people like Thor were getting beaten. We're talking about a fifth of the Phoenix's power--and just to be obvious, the full phoenix is capable of at the very least destroying a planet, so even a fifth of that ain't shabby. Cyke simply puts up shields and devastates the entire area.

Really? You're going to use Video Game Gameplay to make your case? I can do that too....

Hai Guyse! Guss Wut? Cyklopse is tuffers den Jugarnuat!:

Damn, Cyke is a straight up boss slugging it out with Juggs.

F...f....faster than thought?

He's even wearing his own black "Uncanny X-Force" costume.

It's all a part of the new bad boy era of Cyclops. Wolverine might have to watch out, someone's looking to take his shtick.

Having, unfortunately, played TFU II, that's not gameplay, it's a sequence. Not a CGI cutscene, but the event is predetermined nonetheless. The player has no control over the specific actions taking place, so that particular scene if very much canon. It's nothing at all like the second video you posted.

EDIT: But just to be clear on where I stand; this is a mismatch and Vader gets horribly murdered.

@reactor: You want canon?

That's canon of Vader's Durability.

Yep, they're both canon. The Emperor is many times stronger than Marek and Vader's not defending himself against the Emperor's lightning. There's no discrepancy.

The Emperor's Lightning is powerful enough to bend lightsaber blades, destroy miniature armies, etc.

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Taking damage from it for that long is actually a decent feat.

@shawnbaby: He had no lightsaber at that time, had one hand just chopped off, and came from a long physical and psychological battle with his own son. This also at the end of EVI where he is already much older and in decaying shape.

This is the proof for his low durability that you want to use? Are you sure?

Cyclops

Regarding Vader's durability, he has tanked explosions that have torn apart chambers, collapsing cathedrals, high voltage electricity nets and so on. This should still not be enough to stop this version of Cyclops, but it's just for reference.

Not true. This is literally made up out of thin air - never has any source stated this. Conversely, the RotJ novelization itself says Vader was at his prime:

Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground...but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.

Source: Return of the Jedi

@shootingnova: That refers to power, not durability.

But ok, let's scratch that.

So prove that his durability deteriorated. Once again, no source states or even implies that.

Alright.

@shootingnova said:

The Emperor's Lightning is powerful enough to bend lightsaber blades, destroy miniature armies, etc.

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Taking damage from it for that long is actually a decent feat.

Force Lightning, as originally intended, was never that powerful. This is the main problem with the Expanded Universe...it allows for wild contradictions of the movies. It's the reason why there are so many levels of "canon" in Star Wrs...but Movie Canon trumps everything else.

@shawnbaby: C-Canon is perfectly canon as it is. Every single source pertaining to RotJ said that Palpatine was starting off with less lethal but rather more torturous Lightning, but he turned to an more lethal version after Vader betrayed him.

As it is, you are simply denying canonical feats. They are perfectly canon, and as of now, movie canon doesn't trump anything whatsoever because there is currently only one canon class. Disney has made it so that everything is either canon or not. This comes with the potential loss of some parts of Post-RotJ EU, but they haven't cut anything.

For that matter, the RotS novel is G-Canon anyways, since Lucas edited and personally approved of it, and it is a related work to the films themselves. Of course, again, there is only one canon class now, but my point stands anyways.

I think normal Scott would be a better opponent for Vader, AvX Scott seems a bit much.

Disney hasn't finished evaluating what is and is not Canon yet. Until they do...G-Canon still trumps everything.

as for Lucas...he's always stated that the EU stuff is basically an alternate universe.

STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"

LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their ownStar Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

And another:

"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."

@shawnbaby: It doesn't matter whether they have stopped evaluating them. They made it clear there is now only canon, and not canon.

You also failed to address the fact that the RotS novel is G-Canon, and in that, Palpatine overwhelms Yoda's Tutaminis with Lightning, bends Windu's blade, fights faster than Anakin can see, etc.

You do realize that when he says they don't exist in his world, he means that they aren't G-Canon (a term which is pretty much dropped now, because again, there is only one canon class).

Lucas isn't in power anymore, anyways. But really, since you love Lucas so much, you might care to know that he has contradicted himself before, in this matter, yes?

Here are his thoughts on the EU, again:

It was't long after I began writing Star Wars that I realized the story was more than a single film could hold. As the sage of Luke Skywalker and Jedi Knights unfolded, I began to see it as a tale that could take at least nine films to tell—three trilogies—and I realized, in making my way through the back story and after story, that I was really setting out to write the middle story.

After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story—however many films it took to tell—was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not the stories that I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imaginations of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga. This legacy began with Splinter of the Mind's Eye, published less than a year after the release of Star Wars.

Written by Alan Dean Foster, a well-known and talented science-fiction author, Splinter was promoted as a "further adventure" of Luke Skywalker. It hit the bookstores just as I was preparing to write my own "further adventure" of Luke, in the form of a script entitled The Empire Strikes Back. It seems only fitting, after all these years, that Splinter would be republished as I prepare once again to write another further adventure set a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

Source: Splinter of the Mind's Eye

And in his most recent interview, he addressed the hundreds of novels and comics around:

This is Comic Vine. It should be evident that comic material is readily available so long as they are listed as canon, which they are, because C-Canon is distinctly different from S-Canon or N-Canon.