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#1 Posted by Batman15 (192 posts) - - Show Bio

Can you make a list of all the sith and jedi dead or alive that could beat vader if they fought.? Cause you know no one can...

#2 Posted by Wolfrazer (5930 posts) - - Show Bio

Ahhh...../shrug, got nothing.

Online
#3 Posted by ImBoredLetsDebate (446 posts) - - Show Bio

Obvious troll is obvious

#4 Edited by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL.

Bedlam Spirits, the Ones and Abeloth murderstomp, or at least are meant to.

Luke Skywalker, Palpatine and Yoda are definitely beating him.

Darth Plagueis, Darth Caedus, Darth Tenebrous should beat him. In fact, all the Banite Sith following Bane (who is roughly equal to Vader) should beat him, minus Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus.

Vitiate should beat him too.

#5 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

In fact, all the Banite Sith following Bane (who is roughly equal to Vader) should beat him, minus Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus.

Zannah would not beat Vader for any kind of majority.

@ShootingNova said:

Vitiate should beat him too.

Vitiate's only chance against Vader is to Mind Control him before Vader can react, which is highly unikely considering Vader's far superior combat speed. Vader would trounce him otherwise.

#6 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

LOL.

Bedlam Spirits, the Ones and Abeloth murderstomp, or at least are meant to.

Luke Skywalker, Palpatine and Yoda are definitely beating him.

Darth Plagueis, Darth Caedus, Darth Tenebrous should beat him. In fact, all the Banite Sith following Bane (who is roughly equal to Vader) should beat him, minus Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus.

Vitiate should beat him too.

Highly doubt on Vitiate and some Banite sith lords.

#7 Edited by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Zannah would not beat Vader for any kind of majority.

From given feats? No. But Zannah is supposed to be stronger after Bane's death, and assuming she is > Bane and Bane = Vader, she should be able to win in that sense.

Vitiate's only chance against Vader is to Mind Control him before Vader can react, which is highly unikely considering Vader's far superior combat speed. Vader would trounce him otherwise.

It depends where. Vitiate seems to have superior telepathy as well, and possibly other things (he is noted to be significantly more powerful since Revan's assassination attempt).

Telekinetically, he should be at least almost as powerful as Vader.

#8 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster: Vitiate is more debatable. At least a massive majority of the Banite Sith should defeat him, but feat-wise this is not so.

#9 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Jedisupermaster: Vitiate is more debatable. At least a massive majority of the Banite Sith should defeat him, but feat-wise this is not so.

Vitiate is overrated. And his lightsaber mastery s**ks.

#10 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster: I know. And I know what I am talking about. I don't need to hear about overrating because I don't believe I am overrating Vitiate. A lot of people do sell him short as well.

#11 Posted by Jedisupermaster (1112 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Jedisupermaster: I know. And I know what I am talking about. I don't need to hear about overrating because I don't believe I am overrating Vitiate. A lot of people do sell him short as well.

Well, he doesnt have many feats, he is stupid in combat, and he isnt a good lightsaber combatant.

#12 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jedisupermaster: He does, "stupid" is your opinion, and I'm not talking about lightsaber combat. I realize it is a disadvantage that Vitiate is not a proficient lightsaber master (or even a physical one at that), but he is noted to be much stronger after Revan's attempt on his life, and he is shown carrying a lightsaber in TOR, however much that is worth (which is not much).

#13 Posted by JediXMan (29245 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Silver2467 said:

Zannah would not beat Vader for any kind of majority.

From given feats? No. But Zannah is supposed to be stronger after Bane's death, and assuming she is > Bane and Bane = Vader, she should be able to win in that sense.

Vitiate's only chance against Vader is to Mind Control him before Vader can react, which is highly unikely considering Vader's far superior combat speed. Vader would trounce him otherwise.

It depends where. Vitiate seems to have superior telepathy as well, and possibly other things (he is noted to be significantly more powerful since Revan's assassination attempt).

Telekinetically, he should be at least almost as powerful as Vader.

How does Bane = Vader? Vader is a superior duelist, has better TK feats, better durability feats (Orbalisks aside), and better physical attributes. He should beat Bane. The only thing Bane has going for him is lightning, and Vader can deal with lightning users decently enough.

As for Zannah, his only problem is her Sorcery, which he should be powerful enough to endure.

Vader, by all rights, should be more powerful than any Banite Sith (aside from the obvious ones, like Palpatine, Plagueis, Tenebrous, etc.). It's difficult to say that with much certainty, since there isn't a whole lot known about most of the Banite Sith. But still.

I can't speak for Vitiate.

#14 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: You can consider it like that. We should learn more about the Banite Sith, then.

#15 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

From given feats? No. But Zannah is supposed to be stronger after Bane's death, and assuming she is > Bane and Bane = Vader, she should be able to win in that sense.

Even conceding that ranking is accurate, the comparison is weak, in my opinion. Vader and Bane's skills with the Force are, in many respects, very similar but with some apparent and very important distinguishments. Both have affinities for enhancing their strength with the Force and frequently summoning varied and rather potent telekinetic powers. However, there are discrepancies. For instance, Vader can control the elements while Bane has admitted he has no aptitude for that. Bane can generate Lightning while Vader, of course, can't. Vader demonstrated proficiency in Dun Moch where Bane rarely did. Vader consistently employed defensive powers such as Absorption, Deflection, and Barrier where Bane only conjured those powers sparingly. Bane's telepathic powers are limited; Vader's are diverse. Vader unearthed dark side healing techniques; Bane repeatedly failed to. Bane learned the ritual for Essence Transfer; Vader never did. Vader uniformly exerts telekinetic attacks while simultaneously crossing blades with his opponents; Bane usually has to interrupt the duel to produce telekinetic attacks. All things considered, Vader and Bane's field of powers fall on close grounds but not identical ones. While both of them do possess a few esoteric techniques, they have a predisposition toward physically destructive and evident displays of power but often express that in separate ways. You can reasonably draw parallels between Vader and Bane's abilities up to a point. Zannah's talents are the exact opposite.

Zannah's skills depend on subtlety and precision, as well as defense, which manifests itself in her preference in lightsaber forms. She never projected Lightning that I recall, and her telekinetic feats are all right but not outstanding. Overall, Zannah evinced few materially damaging powers, and she lacks entirely the bombast and confrontational attitude that Bane and Vader can bring to bear. Zannah might be more powerful than Bane, but that is not the equivalent of her acquiring all of his mastery in his own individual predilections. Her proficiency with the Force and a lightsaber is still antithetical to his. With all that said, it would seem fair to attribute Zannah's superiority as a Force practitioner over Bane to Vader as well, but not only are there differences in power between Bane and Vader but differences in combative technique as well. While Vader and Bane share a proclivity for Djem So, Vader's chosen lightsaber style is an amalgamation of all lightsaber forms compiled on Djem So as a core form. Concerning Zannah's sorcery, Vader has evinced his own degree of telepathic influence in both offensive and defensive manners in intensities that, in most categories, surpass Bane's TP showings, and while Vader's mental powers might not be the equal of Zannah's, they would suffice to defend against her sorcery long enough to overwhelm her with his lightsaber. And that is even granting that Zannah would find occasion to exercise her sorcery under the advancement of Vader's aggressive lightsaber form and his tendency to abuse his TK in the middle of a duel (a tendency Bane typically lacks), which itself would not happen in most cases.

Not only has Vader exhibited far more physically devastating Force attacks than Zannah has, but his bladework very definitively preponderates hers. Zannah might be somewhat more powerful than Bane, but nothing indicates she exceeds him as a duelist. Whereas, Vader exceeds both. Zannah's familiarity with Djem So on account of training with Bane is a clear issue to address when pitting her against Vader, but this can be circumvented by Vader's intimate knowledge of Soresu from his experiences with Obi-Wan and the fact that Vader's variation of Djem So is distinctive from Bane's. The fact that Vader often incorporates Dun Moch and TK with his lightsaber is another obstacle Zannah has not effectively bypassed in a fight before (Dun Moch could prove especially useful since Zannah needs time and concentration to appropriate her sorcery), and Vader's noticeably greater fighting skill compared with Zannah would spell more losses for her than wins.

This is not to say that I think Vader would defeat Zannah every time, but he would win a majority of rounds. She just lacks the right set of abilities to take a majority over Vader.

@ShootingNova said:

It depends where. Vitiate seems to have superior telepathy as well, and possibly other things (he is noted to be significantly more powerful since Revan's assassination attempt).

Telekinetically, he should be at least almost as powerful as Vader.

Obviously, Vitiate's TP transcends Vader's, but aside from Drain and sorcery (both of which require prep), nothing he has can rival Vader in an unprepared, straight fight. Vader is drastically more efficient as a combatant. Without prep, Vitiate's only shot against Vader is to attack first with TP; if Vader attacks first (which is likely), Vader would kill him.

And on the subject of TK, I find that doubtful. Vader was collapsing cathedrals only months after RotS; he never achieved the height of his powers until decades later. I have never seen Vitiate replicate Vader's telekinetic precision, range, or versatility either.

#16 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Even conceding that ranking is accurate, the comparison is weak, in my opinion. Vader and Bane's skills with the Force are, in many respects, very similar but with some apparent and very important distinguishments. Both have affinities for enhancing their strength with the Force and frequently summong varied and rather potent telekinetic powers. However, there are discrepancies. For instance, Vader can control the elements while Bane has admitted he has no aptitude for that. Bane can generate Lightning while Vader, of course, can't. Vader demonstrated proficiency in Dun Moch where Bane rarely did. Vader consistently employed defensive powers such as Absorption, Deflection, and Barrier where Bane only conjured those powers sparingly. Bane's telepathic powers are limited; Vader's are diverse. Vader unearthed dark side healing techniques; Bane repeatedly failed to. Bane learned the ritual for Essence Transfer; Vader never did. Vader uniformly exerts telekinetic attacks while simultaneously crossing blades with his opponents; Bane usually has to interrupt the duel to produce telekinetic attacks. All things considered, Vader and Bane's field of powers fall on close grounds but not identical ones. While both of them do possess a few esoteric techniques, they have a predisposition toward physically destructive and evident displays of power but often express that in separate ways. You can reasonably draw parallels between Vader and Bane's abilities up to a point. Zannah's talents are the exact opposite.

Zannah's skills depend on subtlety and precision, as well as defense, which manifests itself in her preference in lightsaber forms. She never projected Lightning that I recall, and her telekinetic feats are all right but not outstanding. Overall, Zannah evinced few materially damaging powers, and she lacks entirely the bombast and confrontational attitude that Bane and Vader can bring to bear. Zannah might be more powerful than Bane, but that is not the equivalent of her acquiring all of his mastery in his own individual predilections. Her proficiency with the Force and a lightsaber is still antithetical to his. With all that said, it would seem fair to attribute Zannah's superiority as a Force practitioner over Bane to Vader as well, but not only are there differences in power between Bane and Vader but differences in combative technique as well. While Vader and Bane share a proclivity for Djem So, Vader's chosen lightsaber style is an amalgamation of all lightsaber forms compiled on Djem So as a core form. Concerning Zannah's sorcery, Vader has evinced his own degree of telepathic influence in both offensive and defensive manners in intensities that, in most categories, surpass Bane's TP showings, and while Vader's mental powers might not be the equal of Zannah's, they would suffice to defend against her sorcery long enough to overwhelm her with his lightsaber. And that is even granting that Zannah would find occasion to exercise her sorcery under the advancement of Vader's aggressive lightsaber form and his tendency to abuse his TK in the middle of a duel (a tendency Bane typically lacks), which itself would not happen in most cases.

Not only has Vader exhibited far more physically devastating Force attacks than Zannah has, but his bladework very definitively preponderates hers. Zannah might be somewhat more powerful than Bane, but nothing indicates she exceeds him as a duelist. Whereas, Vader exceeds both. Zannah's familiarity with Djem So on account of training with Bane is a clear issue to address when pitting her against Vader, but this can be circumvented by Vader's intimate knowledge of Soresu from his experiences with Obi-Wan and the fact that Vader's variation of Djem So is distinctive from Bane's. The fact that Vader often incorporates Dun Moch and TK with his lightsaber is another obstacle Zannah has not effectively bypassed in a fight before (Dun Moch could prove especially useful since Zannah needs time and concentration to appropriate her sorcery), and Vader's noticeably greater fighting skill compared with Zannah would spell more losses for her than wins.

This is not to say that I think Vader would defeat Zannah every time, but he would win a majority of rounds. She just lacks the right set of abilities to take a majority over Vader.

From what we have of her (feats from the Bane trilogy), yes, Vader does defeat her. But it is both possible and likely that she got stronger after Bane's demise, but we don't know how much stronger so we should ignore that. For now, we should just say "Plagueis, Tenebrous and Palpatine" of the Banite Sith.

And on the subject of TK, I find that doubtful. Vader was collapsing cathedrals only months after RotS; he never achieved the height of his powers until decades later. I have never seen Vitiate replicate Vader's telekinetic precision, range, or versatility either.

Well, when Vitiate was fatally wounded (and was significantly weakened beforehand) and on the verge of death, he generated earthquakes strong enough to bring the Dark Temple down.

#17 Edited by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

EDIT: Disregard, I didn't read what you had to say to Silver.

#18 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Response? Or did the PM fail to reach you again?

#19 Posted by Obtrusive (1640 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably the lisping youngling could take him if he were given a chance to grow up. Seriously star wars the the worst universe to have an s lisp in. star wars, light sabers, space ships, blasters, siths, blaster. lazers.

#20 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said: 

Well, when Vitiate was fatally wounded (and was significantly weakened beforehand) and on the verge of death, he generated earthquakes strong enough to bring the Dark Temple down.

And shortly after Vader awakened from unconsciousness and endured an explosion or two, he knocked a cathedral down on himself. This was in 19BSW4. Vader never reached his peak until 4ASW4. 
 
Like I said, Vitiate has never duplicated Vader's precision, range, or versatility, not to mention his ability to consistently use TK mid-combat.
#21 Edited by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: I know that and you just said that. Vader wasn't fatally wounded, nor was he massively weakened before he was wounded either. That and Essence Transfer basically makes this a stalemate at best in Vader's favour.

#22 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova: Show me Vitiate using Essence Transfer without having prepared subordinates to possess. For that matter, show me Vitiate surviving as a spirit without a body. Whenever Vitiate dies, he possesses one of his subordinates, correct? I doubt he succeed in possessing Vader; without a host, how is Vitiate's Essence supposed to remain tethered to physical instead of descending into the void?
#23 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: No, it isn't meant to enter Vader, it is meant to be incapable of being harmed by Vader.

No, he doesn't necessarily possess Voices over and over again, and he is capable of travelling distances without using a body. And it depends on who he starts off using. If it is a clone, then yes, he can go back to his "original body", but that won't make much difference.

Also, Vitiate's Lightning might be able to do some damage to Vader. He should be able to resist most of it, but Vitiate should be able to at least damage him with it.

#24 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said:

@Silver2467: No, it isn't meant to enter Vader, it is meant to be incapable of being harmed by Vader.

No, he doesn't necessarily possess Voices over and over again, and he is capable of travelling distances without using a body. And it depends on who he starts off using. If it is a clone, then yes, he can go back to his "original body", but that won't make much difference.

I never asked if Vitiate can travel distances, because when he travels distances, he is doing so to inhabit a body; I asked if Vitiate can simply linger without anything physical to anchor his Essence to, because here there are no bodies provided in the OP for him to travel to. 
 

Also, Vitiate's Lightning might be able to do some damage to Vader. He should be able to resist most of it, but Vitiate should be able to at least damage him with it.

Except that this requires Vitiate to attack first, which would never happen since Vader's combat speed transcends the former's, and requires that Vitiate can even tag Vader with it, which would never happen since Vader can repel it on his lightsaber.
#25 Edited by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: I said he can travel distances as an essence. Please read.

Except that this requires Vitiate to attack first, which would never happen since Vader's combat speed transcends the former's, and requires that Vitiate can even tag Vader with it, which would never happen since Vader can repel it on his lightsaber.

Yes, but I already said that it would have to hit Vader for it to be of any use.

#26 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said:

Please read.

Let me try to make this simpler. I asked you if Vitiate can linger as an Essence without a hose to tether his spirit to. You responded by pointing out that Vitiate can travel distances as merely an Essence without a body. I acknowledged that, but that was beside my point. When Vitiate travels as an Essence, he is doing so for the sole purpose of inhabiting a body. But the only physical host for him in this scenario would be Vader, whom you and I concur he would fail to possess. Under that condition, how is Vitiate's Essence supposed to linger? He has no physical host to tie his Essence to; so how does he remain in the physical realm instead of descending into the Netherworlds? Citing Vitiate's ability to travel distances is insufficient because his Essence is propelled toward that target; his spirit is not simply hovering in non-attachment in an inert state. There is a difference between a Sith spirit moving toward another host and simply lingering without one. 
 
Darksiders like Set Harth could project their Essences to possess new bodies; that is not the equivalent of them being able to casually loiter without either attaching themselves to a physical vessel or at least moving themselves toward a physical vessel. Cronal, for instance, planned to transfer his Essence into Leia, whom he situated inside an alchemical mechanism he termed the "Shadow Egg;" he would translate his spirit into her from outside that device. Despite having to move his spirit from a short distance away from her, Cronal would not able to simply meander in the physical world without a host. This is why darksider's who practice Essence Transfer are so cautiously aware of the dangers of failing to reach their intended host, because without a physical host, even if they do travel a certain distance, they cannot remain lingering in the physical realm. This is demonstrable by Bane's usage of Essence Transfer. Bane projected his Essence into Zannah, but once she dispelled him from her body, he was unable to subsist himself in the physical world because he lacked the power to persist as a spirit without anything to tie his spirit to. Yet he still transmitted his spirit to Zannah. The two are not interchangeable. So my initial question: Has Vitiate ever simply idled in the physical realm without already being anchored to a physical host or without moving toward a physical host he intends to possess? Because if not, nothing leads me to believe he would just float around as a spirit unfastened to anything physical.
#27 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

And your scans as well.

Let me try to make this simpler. I asked you if Vitiate can linger as an Essence without a hose to tether his spirit to. You responded by pointing out that Vitiate can travel distances as merely an Essence without a body. I acknowledged that, but that was beside my point. When Vitiate travels as an Essence, he is doing so for the sole purpose of inhabiting a body. But the only physical host for him in this scenario would be Vader, whom you and I concur he would fail to possess. Under that condition, how is Vitiate's Essence supposed to linger? He has no physical host to tie his Essence to; so how does he remain in the physical realm instead of descending into the Netherworlds? Citing Vitiate's ability to travel distances is insufficient because his Essence is propelled toward that target; his spirit is not simply hovering in non-attachment in an inert state. There is a difference between a Sith spirit moving toward another host and simply lingering without one. Darksiders like Set Harth could project their Essences to possess new bodies; that is not the equivalent of them being able to casually loiter without either attaching themselves to a physical vessel or at least moving themselves toward a physical vessel. This is demonstrable by Bane's usage of Essence Transfer. Bane projected his Essence into Zannah, but once she dispelled him from her body, he was unable to remain in the physical world because he lacked the power to persist as a spirit without anything to tie his spirit to. Yet he still transmitted his spirit to Zannah. The two are not interchangeable. So my initial question: Has Vitiate ever simply idled in the physical realm without already being anchored to a physical host or without moving toward a physical host he intends to possess? Because if not, nothing leads me to believe he would just float around as a spirit unfastened to anything physical.

After he lost to HoT, he either lingered around as a spirit or (as I have heard) entered another body/his original body. Honestly, though, it seems as though Vitiate spreads his consciousness through multiple bodies.

Also, you didn't reply to the TK subject. Does that mean you concede?

#28 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said: 

After he lost to HoT, he either lingered around as a spirit or (as I have heard) entered another body/his original body. Honestly, though, it seems as though Vitiate spreads his consciousness through multiple bodies.

I'm...at a loss as to how that would influence a one on one fight, because I really have no idea what to make of that. So I can offer no further comment. 
 
But thanks for the info. 
 

Also, you didn't reply to the TK subject. Does that mean you concede?

Concede to what? You didn't really make much of a point. I neglected to respond any further on that because there was nothing left for me to respond to.
#29 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Why do I never receive PM's from you?

I'm...at a loss as to how that would influence a one on one fight, because I really have no idea what to make of that. So I can offer no further comment.

But thanks for the info.

Well, it means Vitiate isn't defeated completely if Vader kills one.

Concede to what? You didn't really make much of a point. I neglected to respond any further on that because there was nothing left for me to respond to.

You seemed to be intent on Vader beating Vitiate in TK, and then all of a sudden you stopped? Plus Vitiate threw Revan around without even moving. It is entirely possible he was toying with Revan, and he is noted to be significantly stronger since that event. So I think the biggest thing is that we don't necessarily know Vitiate's real power because Vitiate is supposed to be stronger than he was in every single scenario in which he was defeated or was close to defeated. TOR's attempts to explain his losses are like that, I guess.

#30 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said: 

Well, it means Vitiate isn't defeated completely if Vader kills one.

Do you mean, kills one of his bodies? Because Vitiate is not afforded any more bodies in the OP than his original one.
 

You seemed to be intent on Vader beating Vitiate in TK, and then all of a sudden you stopped?

@Silver2467 said:
I neglected to respond any further on that because there was nothing left for me to respond to.

Plus Vitiate threw Revan around without even moving. It is entirely possible he was toying with Revan

So? Vader could do the same.

and he is noted to be significantly stronger since that event. So I think the biggest thing is that we don't necessarily know Vitiate's real power because Vitiate is supposed to be stronger than he was in every single scenario in which he was defeated or was close to defeated. TOR's attempts to explain his losses are like that, I guess.

None of this really answers what I have been saying since the start of this rather unproductive discussion.
@Silver2467  said: 
And shortly after Vader awakened from unconsciousness and endured an explosion or two, he knocked a cathedral down on himself. This was in 19BSW4. Vader never reached his peak until 4ASW4.  Like I said, Vitiate has never duplicated Vader's precision, range, or versatility, not to mention his ability to consistently use TK mid-combat.

I never meant to insinuate that Vitiate is far behind Vader as a telekinetic, but he lacks the variety of telekinetic powers Vader has displayed. And the excuse that Vitiate grew in power applies to Vader as well.
#31 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Do you mean, kills one of his bodies? Because Vitiate is not afforded any more bodies in the OP than his original one.

No, it just is that Vitiate is multiple bodies, if you know what I mean. Not literally, but Vitiate isn't meant to be in a single body at any one time. Do you think Vitiate could imprint himself on Vader like Bane did to Zannah if he tried? Not saying that he will.

I neglected to respond any further on that because there was nothing left for me to respond to.

That's not what I was looking for, but if you really think there is nothing to be said about it, then fine.

So? Vader could do the same.

Throwing Revan without moving, especially when not in the peak of his power and possibly toying? I don't think so.

I never meant to insinuate that Vitiate is far behind Vader as a telekinetic, but he lacks the variety of telekinetic powers Vader has displayed. And the excuse that Vitiate grew in power applies to Vader as well.

Except we've seen what Vader has done, while Vitiate is still a bit of a question mark when it comes to power levels. Vitiate might not have quantity, but he is quality over quantity. It's similar to our debate when you said defeating Venamis was good enough to take on Maul and Dooku.

#32 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said: 

No, it just is that Vitiate is multiple bodies, if you know what I mean. Not literally, but Vitiate isn't meant to be in a single body at any one time.

I follow you, but what I was saying is that the OP never stipulated that Vitiate is allowed more than one body. Unless Vader is fighting Vitiate in all the various bodies he inhabits simultaneously, then this point is, for the most part, inconsequential for battle forum purposes. That was all I meant. If this was in the SW universe and not in a battle forum setting, then I would agree with you. 
 

Do you think Vitiate could imprint himself on Vader like Bane did to Zannah if he tried? Not saying that he will.

I have no answer for that. That issue is a little out of my depth. 
 

Throwing Revan without moving, especially when not in the peak of his power and possibly toying? I don't think so.

And why not? What exactly has Revan accomplished as a telekinetic that leads you to believe he could shield himself from Vader's TK? For that matter, Vader has TK'd other Jedi like Tsui Choi while severely injured and Choked Sha Koon mid-duel. I fail to see why Revan would be any different. Now, if your emphasis was on Vitiate not moving, Vader once tore apart a bridge platform and balcony without moving, once again decades before reaching his peak.
 

Except we've seen what Vader has done

No, we haven't. The best telekinetic feat of raw power Vader has ever displayed was knocking down a cathedral. That was years before his prime. We have never once seen him cut loose with his TK at or near his peak. His other destructive feats that he has accomplished, such as hurling away dozens of enemies, toppling colossal trees, throwing V-Wings, throwing Y-Wings, ripping apart rooms, etc. were all done with less than optimal effort.
 

Vitiate might not have quantity, but he is quality over quantity.

No, he isn't. Generic destructive telekinetic feats (like destroying his palace or ripping apart T3) are not what I am referring to when I direct you to Vader's feats of precision, technique, or variety. By that, I mean the times Vader has used Crush on a Jedi with multiple hearts, used Lightsaber Throw to spin his lightsaber around himself, redirected missiles, fired blaster rifles while fighting enemies, levitated himself, etc. Beyond that, the "quality" you attribute to Vitiate, destroying buildings, Vader has replicated anyway.
#33 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: I am never receiving PM's from you. Are you having the same posting issues as I had a month or so before?

I follow you, but what I was saying is that the OP never stipulated that Vitiate is allowed more than one body. Unless Vader is fighting Vitiate in all the various bodies he inhabits simultaneously, then this point is, for the most part, inconsequential for battle forum purposes. That was all I meant. If this was in the SW universe and not in a battle forum setting, then I would agree with you.

Okay. Should we ask the OP or just ignore?

I have no answer for that. That issue is a little out of my depth.

...... I was waiting for "No chance".

And why not? What exactly has Revan accomplished as a telekinetic that leads you to believe he could shield himself from Vader's TK? For that matter, Vader has TK'd other Jedi like Tsui Choi while severely injured and Choked Sha Koon mid-duel. I fail to see why Revan would be any different. Now, if your emphasis was on Vitiate not moving, Vader once tore apart a bridge platform and balcony without moving, once again decades before reaching his peak.

Force protections against abilities such as Lightning would be of equal effect against telekinesis, I assume? If you disagree with me then I can't answer your question.

No, we haven't. The best telekinetic feat of raw power Vader has ever displayed was knocking down a cathedral. That was years before his prime. We have never once seen him cut loose with his TK at or near his peak. His other destructive feats that he has accomplished, such as hurling away dozens of enemies, toppling colossal trees, throwing V-Wings, throwing Y-Wings, ripping apart rooms, etc. were all done with less than optimal effort.

So then this is basically a question mark based battle.

No, he isn't. Generic destructive telekinetic feats (like destroying his palace or ripping apart T3) are not what I am referring to when I direct you to Vader's feats of precision, technique, or variety. By that, I mean the times Vader has used Crush on a Jedi with multiple hearts, used Lightsaber Throw to spin his lightsaber around himself, redirected missiles, fired blaster rifles while fighting enemies, levitated himself, etc. Beyond that, the "quality" you attribute to Vitiate, destroying buildings, Vader has replicated anyway.

The Dark Temple has to be at least as large as Vader's cathedral. It is hard to judge purely from game mechanics, but including cutscenes and quotes and all, I would certainly think so. Plus it is supposed to have Dark Side spirits that Vitiate locked in there (though I am unsure whether this would mean anything). And Vitiate achieved this after he was mortally wounded, and he was significantly weakened beforehand.

#34 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said:

@Silver2467: I am never receiving PM's from you. Are you having the same posting issues as I had a month or so before?

No, but sorry to hear about your inbox troubles. 
 

Okay. Should we ask the OP or just ignore?

Probably  just ignore. Given how undetailed (and a little silly) the OP for this thread is, I would hardly expect much on this particular subject. 
 

...... I was waiting for "No chance".

LOL. No, I'm afraid I can't exercise that much dogma on that issue. That matter really is out of my depth. 
 

Force protections against abilities such as Lightning would be of equal effect against telekinesis, I assume?

No. Force-derived defenses against TK are a result of training in the opposition of sources of power and diffusing those points of contact, as well as the strength of an individual's Force aura. On the other hand, Revan redirected Lightning using Force Deflection. Force Deflection is an altogether separate and distinct power from practices of warding off TK. If Deflection and defense against TK were identical, then why have Force sensitives such as Dooku, Mace, or countless other Jedi Padawans and Initiates who who were trained to resist Force Telekinesis never exhibited Force Deflection? Simple: The two are not the same.

Jedi Padawans learn to counter Force kinesis before they even begin lightsaber training. Still in the air, Mace sensed the flow of power that held Vastor's grip upon him; with a sigh, he allowed his center—Vastor’s point of Force contact—to relax and ground Vastor's power back into the jungle around them...

--Taken from Shatterpoint

As long as anyone could remember, Yoda had spent most of his time in the Jedi Temple with the very young. Playing with them at ages two and three—hide-and-seek, dodge-bolt, Force tag. The early rambling lessons in the garden where he taught them the secret lives of vegetables, the irresistible burst of shoots, and flowers playing dress up; clustering them around to watch an orb-spider weave its web, or a bee bumble its way into a mass of blossoms.
When the first combat training started, with falls and rolls and footwork games, Yoda led them. For one thing, he was just their size. The first touch of genuine combat Dooku could remember was playing a game called push-feather with the Master. The point of the game was to become aware of even the faintest, tiniest changes in pressure and balance, and to learn to counter one's opponent's force not by blocking with greater force of one's own, but by turning the opponent's energy back on him or her.
As one got better at the game—and Dooku was much the quickest learner in his year—it became more and more like sparring, with victory going to whichever fighter could make his or her foe lose balance first. As they got older, they more often started in a fighting stance, fingers lightly on one another's forearms. Dooku's first push would come light and fast, or slow and heavy; the energy would come up from below or drop from above, or come in a sudden thrust right to the chest. He won the Twelve-and-Under Tournament when he was nine, using the trick of starting with very gentle probes, as if feeling his enemy out in the kid's version of the game, and then suddenly popping the pressure point inside his enemy's elbow and attacking in the instant of shock and pain.
But as good as he got, he never beat Master Yoda. No matter what trick he tried—a Force push from behind, a slap to the eyes—the Master always felt the blow coming before it landed and twitched aside, like a stingfly dodging angry hands. Every time Dooku thought he had the old Jedi set up and made his final push, Yoda would melt away from the blow, and like someone walking down a staircase with two steps inexplicably missing, Dooku would find himself flailing, the old familiar lurch and loss of balance. The drop.
What made it more frustrating was that Yoda frequently lost these games of push-feather. He would shove out at some little boy or girl with half Dooku's talent, who would twist clumsily to the side, and the Master would pitch comically to their feet, making woeful faces while the kid giggled and shrieked with jubilation. He let them win on purpose, Dooku could tell. He was building confidence in them. But he never lost to Dooku, never once. It was unfair; blatantly unfair, and for six months Dooku attacked with greater and greater fury, trying anything to win, but at the same time making his own balance ever more vulnerable, so when he lost—and he always lost, always, always, always—he did it in progressively more spectacular fashion. He made a point of losing badly, painfully. Daring everyone else to notice how unfairly Yoda was treating him.
Dooku was twelve years old the last time they played. Yoda had been coming to the unarmed combat classes once a week or so, and that whole spring they had sparred through a long series of humiliating defeats in which Dooku found himself taking an increasingly proud, contemptuous, bitter kind of satisfaction. He was twice the Master's height now, and still Yoda had never let him win, not even once. Never admitted what he was doing, either, and Dooku would certainly never give him the satisfaction of crying about it, or complaining.
As they bowed to one another, Dooku decided that he would make this loss something spectacular: so blatant that everyone would have to acknowledge what was going on. He decided he would break his own arm.
They straightened from their bows. Dooku settled into his ready stance, calming himself and preparing for the pain to come.
"I win," Yoda said.
"What!" Dooku had yelped. "We haven't even started!"
"When one fighter his balance has lost, win his opponent has," Yoda said mildly. "I win."
—And at that instant, again, as always, the sudden lurch: the falling: and Dooku saw Yoda was right. As soft as Dooku had made his limbs, his pride was still stiff, and that's where Yoda had pushed by never letting him win, until he was so wound up in his rage and humiliation that he had gone into the match intending to lose.
The realization was so big he could hardly hold it. He blinked, dazzled by the genius of the Master's teaching: showing him a weakness he would never have found, no matter how many times he beat his fellow students.
"Th-thank you," he had stammered, his insides all mixed up between rage and humiliation and abject gratitude: and the old Jedi's face had broken into a smile. He had gripped Dooku's hand and brought him close and hugged him, laughing. "When you fall, apprentice...catch you I will!"
That night, lying on his cot, two sensations were still mixing uneasily in Dooku's chest. The lurching, tipping, drop into space, unbalanced again, outfoxed and tumbling: and Yoda's tight, delighted hug afterward, a physical promise, delivered skin-to-skin—when you fall, catch you I will.

--Taken from Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
 
So, no, you can't assign the potency of Revan's Deflection to his resistance to TK. The two are not one and the same. 
 

If you disagree with me then I can't answer your question.

Yes, you can. You can tell me what feats with Telekinesis and feats of resistance to Telekinesis Revan has displayed by the time of his confrontation with Vitiate that implicate he could withstand Vader's TK. If there are none (which is the case), then Vader could TK Revan as easily as Vitiate could.
 

The Dark Temple has to be at least as large as Vader's cathedral. It is hard to judge purely from game mechanics, but including cutscenes and quotes and all, I would certainly think so. Plus it is supposed to have Dark Side spirits that Vitiate locked in there (though I am unsure whether this would mean anything). And Vitiate achieved this after he was mortally wounded, and he was significantly weakened beforehand.

I never disputed any of this. I remarked on the fact that Vader simply possesses better mastery and control of his TK based on the plethora of ways he has utilized it.
#35 Edited by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

No, but sorry to hear about your inbox troubles.

No, sir, I haven't been having any troubles. It's just that your posts never get through.

Probably just ignore. Given how undetailed (and a little silly) the OP for this thread is, I would hardly expect much on this particular subject.

Sure.

LOL. No, I'm afraid I can't exercise that much dogma on that issue. That matter really is out of my depth.

So it is basically another question mark?

No. Force-derived defenses against TK are a result of training in the opposition of sources of power and diffusing those points of contact, as well as the strength of an individual's Force aura. On the other hand, Revan redirected Lightning using Force Deflection. Force Deflection is an altogether separate and distinct power from practices of warding off TK. If Deflection and defense against TK were identical, then why have Force sensitives such as Dooku, Mace, or countless other Jedi Padawans and Initiates who who were trained to resist Force Telekinesis never exhibited Force Deflection? Simple: The two are not the same.

Okay. So basically I have read both Shatterpoint and Darth Bane: Path of Destruction and I know about people building early TK defenses, but it doesn't have anything of worth against Lightning?

However, I am actually talking about Force Barrier.

Yes, you can.

Yes, sir!

You can tell me what feats with Telekinesis and feats of resistance to Telekinesis Revan has displayed by the time of his confrontation with Vitiate that implicate he could withstand Vader's TK. If there are none (which is the case), then Vader could TK Revan as easily as Vitiate could.

Revan's only TK resistance feat is rolling in the air. So........ Vader can't TK him, right?

I never disputed any of this. I remarked on the fact that Vader simply possesses better mastery and control of his TK based on the plethora of ways he has utilized it.

Which doesn't seem to be much in regards to potency, and that is about the only issue I am trying to get on.

#36 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said: 

Okay. So basically I have read both Shatterpoint and Darth Bane: Path of Destruction and I know about people building early TK defenses, but it doesn't have anything of worth against Lightning?

No. As Tionne pointed out once, Lightning is virtually impossible to defend against. That being the case, how can you argue that a character has a natural defense against Lightning as they do TK?

Force lightning causes excruciating pain as it weakens an individual's life, and is nearly impossible to deflect.

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
 
It requires a substantial amount of Force mastery to efficiently obstruct Lightning with the Force. Whereas, Force TK is a power any Force sensitive can protect themselves from. The only time a character's natural TK defenses would fail against another's is when one character's Force power vastly supersedes the other's. Lightning on the other hand, very few Force sensitives can block with the Force, because a Force aura does not protect a character from Lightning.
 

However, I am actually talking about Force Barrier.

Depends on what you mean by this. In his books, Karpyshyn typically referred to a Force Shield and a Force aura interchangeably (once again, his exquisite knowledge of the Force at work). For instance, when Nyriss constructed a Force Shield to defend herself from Revan deflecting her Lightning back toward her, that was a literal Force Barrier, as in a palpable force field. On the other hand, when a character like Bane, for example, generated a shield to protect himself from Zannah's Force Push, that is an aspect of his Force aura. 
 

Actually, if TK and Lightning Defenses were similar, I could

Well, they're not. Any Force sensitive can defend against TK; not any Force sensitive can defend against Lightning. The mechanics of the two defensive skills are entirely different in operation.
 

Revan's only TK resistance feat is rolling in the air.

And his only TK feats by that point were mediocre. 
 
As I said from the start, Vader could TK Revan as casually as Vitiate did. 
 

Which doesn't seem to be much in regards to potency, and that is about the only issue I am trying to get on.

Which is a mistake, given that is hardly the only relevant issue. 
 
If your point is that Vitiate can produce telekinetic attacks nearly as destructive as those of Vader, then we agree. If your point is that Vitiate possesses an equal skill or resource of TK as Vader, then we disagree.
#37 Edited by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Which is a mistake, given that is hardly the only relevant issue. If your point is that Vitiate can produce telekinetic attacks nearly as destructive as those of Vader, then we agree. If your point is that Vitiate possesses an equal skill or resource of TK as Vader, then we disagree.

Pretty much, Vitiate can produce telekinetic attacks with at least (approximately) equal proficiency as Vader.

Depends on what you mean by this.

I mean an actual Force Barrier. An active one, not a passive one.

#38 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: I am actually considering the strength of Vitiate's TP now, and its effectiveness against Vader. Might not seem like much, but Vitiate can possess beings across the galaxy (yes, with unidentified prep) and then fight with or through those beings.

#39 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said: 

I mean an actual Force Barrier. An active one, not a passive one.

I fail to see how that would defend against TK. See, the problem with employing either Barrier or  Deflection against TK is that both assemble an energy shield to withstand projectiles. That might be useful against telekinetic waves or bursts (though I have never seen a Force sensitive apply Barrier or Deflection for that purpose before), but it would have no effect on direct contact. Using Revan and Vader as our illustration, if Revan composed a barricade for himself of either Force Deflection or Barrier, nothing prevents Vader from simply telekinetically reaching through the Barrier or deflective shield to TK Revan directly. He has no need to overpower or dismantle Revan's Barrier or Deflection through telekinetic strength; he can just stretch out with his mind to pass through them, the way Jedi like Luke have telekinetically reached through deflector shields or the way Vader used Choke on Admiral Ozzel from a different location in his Star Destroyer. On the other hand, telekinetic defenses that allow a Force sensitive to diffuse or otherwise tank telekinetic attacks (4:50) are not something that can so easily be circumvented. As I pointed out, the way to bypass them is just by being noticeably more powerful than your opponent. In RotS, Dooku Choked Obi-Wan and tossed him across a room; he managed this because he just plain surpass Obi-Wan's power in the Force. Conversely, when Vader awakened on the operations table after his duel on Mustafar, he failed to telekinetically harm Sidious; this happened because Sidious' power in the Force simply outweighs Vader's.

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat. As Obi-Wan gasped, Anakin swung at Dooku from behind, but Dooku kicked Anakin's stomach with his left foot, smashing the young Jedi against a nearby wall. Obi-Wan was still suspended in the air when Dooku gestured again with his hand to send his choking victim sailing across the chamber. Obi-Wan crashed against the railing of an extended balcony, then collapsed like a broken doll to the floor.

--Taken from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader

And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
 
As you already know, this why a Force sensitive directly TKing another Force sensitive is impressive as a showing. It requires more effort and power than TKing a non-Force sensitive target, though it is sometimes more difficult to measure. For instance, which is more impressive: Vader throwing a Y-Wing or Vader crushing a Jedi's hearts? I would favor the former, but both have value in their own way. This is also why lightsaber duels between Force sensitives rarely end with just telekinetic attacks: Force sensitives can resist those. More, it explains why a character like, say, Tyranus can crumble stone ceilings yet not just telekinetically tear a Jedi apart. The stone ceiling is more durable than the Jedi (in most cases), but the Jedi can defend himself against TK. However, just about all Force sensitives have innate defenses against TK and TP, but few have defenses against an esoteric power like Lightning.

@ShootingNova  said:

@Silver2467: I am actually considering the strength of Vitiate's TP now, and its effectiveness against Vader. Might not seem like much, but Vitiate can possess beings across the galaxy (yes, with unidentified prep) and then fight with or through those beings.

I already conceded that Vitiate could mind control Vader. That would be his best chance for victory.
#40 Edited by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

I already conceded that Vitiate could mind control Vader. That would be his best chance for victory.

And how much of a chance (out of ten) do you think this would be possible?

Additionally, Vitiate uses Force Illusion to create duplicates of himself. Does this count as TP or not?

#41 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said:

And how much of a chance (out of ten) do you think this would be possible?

Depends on the conditions of the fight. Now, since none are provided in the OP, we revert to the auxiliary rules set in the forum rules. Starting close together in a city area with morals on and the intention to win, I would give Vader the majority. He could close the gap and cut down Vitiate more often than not, but Vitiate could take 3-4/10 under that scenario. If the two started farther apart, I would give Vitiate the majority. 
 

Additionally, Vitiate uses Force Illusion to create duplicates of himself. Does this count as TP or not?

That in itself is a whole new discussion. Sometimes, Force Illusions are made purely in the mind and perception of a target individual, yet other times, Force Illusions are noncorporeal manifestations, almost like intangible conglomerations of Force energy that shape themselves into the illusionist's form of preference. It just depends on the user, I guess. Writers seem to have their own theories on whether Force Illusions can only be seen by a particular individual or whether they can be seen by anyone. I actually wrote a blog on that subject that was not very comprehensive but expressed my indecisiveness on the matter.
#42 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Depends on the conditions of the fight. Now, since none are provided in the OP, we revert to the auxiliary rules set in the forum rules. Starting close together in a city area with morals on and the intention to win, I would give Vader the majority. He could close the gap and cut down Vitiate more often than not, but Vitiate could take 3-4/10 under that scenario. If the two started farther apart, I would give Vitiate the majority.

Morals on, though, doesn't that inhibit Vader from simply walking in and cutting down Vitiate? Well, it probably doesn't, but I wonder if Vitiate could distract him with other abilities beforehand, or simply go straight to attacking him telepathically, which might result in a victory. What is "close" though? Unless it is very close, I am not so sure.

That in itself is a whole new discussion. Sometimes, Force Illusions are made purely in the mind and perception of a target individual, yet other times, Force Illusions are noncorporeal manifestations, almost like intangible conglomerations of Force energy that shape themselves into the illusionist's form of preference. It just depends on the user, I guess. Writers seem to have their own theories on whether Force Illusions can only be seen by a particular individual or whether they can be seen by anyone. I actually wrote a blog on that subject that was not very comprehensive but expressed my indecisiveness on the matter.

Yes, and how much use do you think it will be of in this fight?

#43 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said: 

Morals on, though, doesn't that inhibit Vader from simply walking in and cutting down Vitiate? Well, it probably doesn't, but I wonder if Vitiate could distract him with other abilities beforehand, or simply go straight to attacking him telepathically, which might result in a victory. What is "close" though? Unless it is very close, I am not so sure.

Again, all of this requires that Vitiate can attack first. He wouldn't. Regarding "how close," the battle forum rules are rather undescriptive in that sense. 
 

Yes, and how much use do you think it will be of in this fight?

That depends on what type of Illusion Vitiate forms, whether they be literally visible Illusions or Illusions that are only present in the mind of his enemy. 
 

This discussion is becoming pretty tiresome, Nova. LOL. But you gave us an opportunity to talk in detail about a number of topics; so it was a good conversation.
#44 Edited by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Well, it was two pages.

Alright, let's just end this. The OP asks me to present who can defeat Vader, and I'll just present the scenario as well.

That depends on what type of Illusion Vitiate forms, whether they be literally visible Illusions or Illusions that are only present in the mind of his enemy.

Literally visible. To all.

LOL

I think I've spread the "LOL virus" to you, haven't I?

#45 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said: 

Literally visible. To all.

Is that the type of Illusion Vitiate formulates, or is that simply what you assume they are? 
 
Regardless, if Vitiate's Illusions are essentially compositely shaped Force energies, Vader should be able to sense their artificiality. As a teenager, Maul was able to sense that Talzin's Illusions were just that, Illusions. Shortly after the Battle of Endor and the Battle of Bakura, Luke saw through the illusory images that S'byll constructed. Vader's telepathic showings outstrip both of them; in fact, Vader was probing through Luke's mind on the second Death Star. Seeing through Force Illusions that are literal and not only in the mind of the target is just a matter of exercising Force senses, something Vader, like most other Jedi and Sith, does virtually constantly. Now, if your proposed strategy with the Illusions is to distract Vader so Vitiate can mind control him, that might work. I feel confident Vader would at least acknowledge the presence of the Illusions before he perceives them for what they are. That would give Vitiate an instant or two to TP Vader; so that sounds plausible.
 

I think I've spread the "LOL virus" to you, haven't I?

I was saying that long before you even started posting on this site.
#46 Posted by ShootingNova (15212 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Is that the type of Illusion Vitiate formulates, or is that simply what you assume they are?

Well, HoT was the main target, but if T7 was seeing them.......

Regardless, if Vitiate's Illusions are essentially compositely shaped Force energies, Vader should be able to sense their artificiality. As a teenager, Maul was able to sense that Talzin's Illusions were just that, Illusions. Shortly after the Battle of Endor and the Battle of Bakura, Luke saw through the illusory images that S'byll constructed. Vader's telepathic showings outstrip both of them; in fact, Vader was probing through Luke's mind on the second Death Star. Seeing through Force Illusions that are literal and not only in the mind of the target is just a matter of exercising Force senses, something Vader, like most other Jedi and Sith, does virtually constantly. Now, if your proposed strategy with the Illusions is to distract Vader so Vitiate can mind control him, that might work. I feel confident Vader would at least acknowledge the presence of the Illusions before he perceives them for what they are. That would give Vitiate an instant or two to TP Vader; so that sounds plausible.

Yes to all, but I think it might have something to do with Sith magic.....

I was saying that long before you even started posting on this site.

And almost never in caps.

#49 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova: The question of how Illusions would impact the fight? I already answered that. Vader could recognize them as illusory but would probably pause to arrive at this realization, during which brief delay, Vitiate could dominate his mind. However, that would still only transpire in a minority of cases considering Vader's precog and superior combat speed.
#50 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

I love it when the gods debate