#1 Edited by Stompa (1255 posts) - - Show Bio

I was wondering what would have happend if Dooku would have gathered some resources and challanged Good ol´Sid....so here we have: In the Red Corner Darth Sidious the incarnation of ass kicking in the SWU! And in the not-so-red-but-surely-not-blue Corner Darth Tyrannus,Darth Maul (the Spiader), Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, Sora Bulq, General Grievous, Cade Bane and Jango Fett.

Fight is obviously to the death and everybody has standard equipment. Team will act as one and will accept orders from the Count but won´t shed a tear if any of them dies. No black holes for Sid and stuff like that and he won´t take over a body with his spirit. Fight takes place in Palpatines bureau on Coruscant. (a homage to some dead Jedi.....)


Sid has a last trump up

his sleeve: Darth Vader comes to his aid


#2 Posted by Nefarious (18363 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Sidious.

#3 Posted by jwalser3 (4796 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Sidious in a galactic stomp.

#4 Posted by Stompa (1255 posts) - - Show Bio

A stomp? A lightsaberstrike can kill him and there are at least nine in the match against him.....only one of them has to manage to lock swords with Sid and there should be an opening

#5 Posted by guttridgeb (4831 posts) - - Show Bio

Palpatine is too fast for them to take out.

#6 Posted by mettlekm (417 posts) - - Show Bio

hmmmmm, if yoda can hold his own vs sidious and dooku could hold his own with yoda, then definitely not a stomp. (hopefully this doesn't set forth an argument about this style vs that style of light saber fighting)

I gotta go with Sidious though. He's a little too smart for the others. He'll have vader wait in shadows, distract the rest & then vader will cut three or four of them down from behind or something like that. then, without the overwhelming numbers, it's just a matter of time...

#7 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm. Cad and Fett are useless. So there is little point in discussing them. They lack the physicality to compete with Palpatine, and he has several ways to rather effortlessly one-shotting them. Their array of weapons could actually be more of a detriment to their own team than to Sidious, considering he can casually evade or deflect any projectiles they launch at him, whether with his lightsaber or with the Force. Overall, neither are relevant. 
Not entirely sure what that version of Maul could contribute either. As shown in both The Wrath of Darth Maul and Sith Hunters, Maul's tenure on Lotho Minor drove him insane, and to my knowledge, his use of his lightsaber declined. He was aggressive enough to be sure and could still summon the Force (that was how he acquired his legs after all), but his mental and combat coherency are suspect at that time. In his mental state, considering he had frequent visions of his defeat at Obi-Wan's hands, it could also be a psychological shock to him to see Sidious again, though whether that would decrease his competence or simply render him more hostile is anyone's guess. Overall, I find it difficult to think he would add much to this duel. 
Regarding the others, if this is current TCW Grievous, he would be a significantly lesser threat than if this is pre-current Grievous. Pre-TCW Grievous would be faster, stronger, more durable, more skilled, and more tactically inclined; if that version is stipulated, he would probably be the ranking threat on his team second only to Dooku. Savage, honestly, he lacks entirely the combative polish or the speed to hold his own. And even his not inconsiderable power is rather inconsequential against Palpatine. Sora is a notable duelist. He fought well against Mace in Schism (though Mace does supersede him as a swordsman), but his potency with the Force is lacking. Dooku and Ventress possess the right combination of disciplined power and refined technique, especially Tyranus. But even then, neither are anywhere close to Sidious' power in that sense. 

One of the primary obstacles the team faces is that none of them are perceptibly fast enough to actually see Sidious move or reflexively fast enough to actually evade his blows very well. Palpatine has a colossal physical advantage. Minus Grievous' durability, he exceeds all of the physical attributes of anyone on that team. He is strong enough to smash people's skulls, tear people's limbs off, shrug off machine parts weighing a ton being dropped on his head without flinching (which also displays durability in addition to strength), etc. He is durable enough to fall thirteen stories unharmed, tank blaster bolts, withstand explosions, resist Vader's Force Scream, etc. He is fast enough to deflect fire from miniature armies of droids, fight armies of warriors without sustaining a hit, outpace blaster bolts, blitz Jedi (Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar), swing his lightsaber rapidly enough to weave webs/afterimages out of his blade, and fight faster than multiple Force sensitive characters can even see, namely Darth Maul (on two different occasions), Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker (who has reacted to Tri-Fighters flying at sublight speeds), and Leia Organa Solo (Palpatine was invisibly fast to her while his powers were reduced, no less). Even with Pre-TCW Grievous, none of the characters on the team are quick enough to visually track Palpatine's strikes, and that leaves them at an immense disadvantage. Palpatine could actually blitz some of these characters. 
The other problem is that their offensive Force abilities are inferior to his. Though their collective power might outmatch his, the probability of them finding an opportunity to properly synchronize their powers in a concerted assault is minimal. Individually, Dooku, Savage, and Ventress are powerful but not powerful enough. Dooku's Lightning can easily be caught on Sidious' lightsaber blade; telekinetic attacks can similarly be repelled. Conversely, Palpatine is overwhelmingly the more powerful telekinetic and Lightning adept, and his other powers, such as Maelstrom, Alter Environment, Drain, and Telepathy grant him far more options. 
With that said, despite how it may seem based on my evaluation, I actually am not sure yet who would win this. While it is true that Sidious is the most powerful character here and that individuals on the team would be hard pressed to react to his attacks, the number of them affords advantage. Could Palpatine blitz through all of them before any of them manages to catch on, or would he eventually abate his running speed down to quickly cut down an enemy directly, which would leave him more stationary and vulnerable to one of his several opponents? Not really sure yet. Really, to drop Palpatine, the team needs to connect a solid lightsaber wound, but to do that, they need Sidious to slow down enough that he can remain in one confined area for a brief instant. Now, even if he stood perfectly still, that by itself is not a guaranteed win for the team. His combat speed surpasses his movement speed, and if any of the characters approach him in small numbers, he would cut them down before they see it coming. However, if basically the entire or at least the majority of the team managed to converge on him on all sides, they might be able to win that way. If Sidious was surrounded, he would probably not be able to leap away, because any or all of the Force-sensitive characters around him could follow. His best bet in that scenario would be to TK them all away, which actually is possible. Of course, that situation requires that Palpatine suspend his running speed for some reason so that the others can rush over around him, which itself should only take an instant, but it would take less of an instant for him to escape the area while they sprint toward him. It just depends, which is why I have no definitive answer right now.

#8 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@mettlekm said:

hmmmmm, if yoda can hold his own vs sidious and dooku could hold his own with yoda, then definitely not a stomp. 

Bad comparison. Yoda is fast enough to see Sidious' movements; Dooku is not. So this ABC logic doesn't work. The characters' powers are not interchangeable with one another. Besides, Yoda beat Dooku twice anyway; so that might not be the best example to draw from.
#9 Posted by Stompa (1255 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: wow thanks better analysis then i could have ever hoped for. the fight takes place in his office so the space is rather small and maybe this could help the team.

#10 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Stompa said:

the fight takes place in his office so the space is rather small and maybe this could help the team.

That could be. Then again, the tight pressure could just prompt Palpatine to start abusing his Force powers more instead of trying to fight directly. 
Still not really sure on this. I can see why people would say that Sidious would win, since his speed is a massive edge in his favor, but I can also understand why people would believe the team's numbers would eventually kill him. I should point out that Palpatine does usually employ his running speed through and throughout his duels. During his duel with Tiin, Kolar, Fisto, and Windu, Palpatine was running throughout his office nearly nonstop. During his second duel with Luke, he adopted that fighting stance as well, though how much he did in their first duel is less clear. Now, when he dueled Yoda, he was more stationary, but that would be more due to the environment they fought in, which included senate pods that obviously have too little room to utilize running speed on. So it is very much in character for Palpatine to sprint around his opponents as he attacks them, but as I mentioned, his first duel with Luke may not have shown that as much. It did seems that they moved around his cloning laboratory, but there seemed to be less motion than usual, which suggests he sometimes may not exploit his running speed as often as he could. However, that is only one example. Sidious' duel with Yoda is hardly indicative because the area they fought in hindered him from using that style, and his duel with Maul on Hypori is not indicative either because Sidious was purposely holding back to test Maul (and even then, he still actually did run faster than Maul could see in that duel at a couple points but stopped short of dropping Maul to aggravate him).
#11 Posted by capfan80 (348 posts) - - Show Bio

I give it to the group for Sidious alone. I get it that he is badass but Dooku is one of the best duelers in the galaxy, backed up by a crew all of whom have proven they can kill Jedi knights, in some cases Jedi masters. Sidious is awesome but there is a reason he doesn't just roll on mobs of Jedi every day. He knows that as a solo act he has to be a master manipulator. Add Vader to the mix and he has a decent chance of winning.

#12 Posted by ShootingNova (15264 posts) - - Show Bio

As already stated, this is matter of whether Palpatine can slay them prior to them reacting.

Palpatine already obviously possesses combat speed beyond any of them being able to react:

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

And of course, if neither Mace nor Anakin can react to Palpatine, then it should be obvious none of team 2 can. However, the question, as Silver has already said, is whether or not Palpatine could speedblitz the entire team (granted how there are multiple beings who can react at Anakin's level).

We can skip over Cad and Fett, as Silver said they are worthless in this fight (they might actually be able to do something, like in Silver's scenario where they surround Palpatine, but generally they lack the firepower, physical attributes and senses to really do anything).

In this state, Maul is an insane, over-aggressive freak who might not actually be worth having on the team. He was able to fight and defeat (though he did use Dun Moch, which is a bit strange considering how he didn't do it priorly, although, of course, he was mad) Obi-Wan Kenobi, which is good but not really...... enough.

Sora Bulq has a lot of lightsaber talent, holding his own against Mace Windu. Unfortunately for him, Sidious obliterates him in a Force battle. Really, he would be annihilated before he could do too much, but once again, in that situation with the team all up against Palpatine, he could do something.

Which Grievous is this, specifically? As said already, pre-TCW Grievous would be the greatest threat on Team 2 (minus Dooku) due to his durability, strength, speed, skill and tactical cunning. If it's TCW Grievous, he would probably just feed Palpatine another kill and wreck it for his team.

Ventress and Dooku (and pre-TCW Grievous if that's the one in here) are the main batters for Team 2. Individually, they would lack the ability to even react, and their own saber prowess is still much inferior to Palpatine's. Combined, however, they are probably capable of overwhelming Palpatine (in sheer duelling), granted they are able to actually fight and not get speedblitzed.

Force-wise, it's the same. By themselves, neither Ventress nor Dooku can even harm Palpatine, who could repel all their Force attacks (TK, Lightning and so on) while his own TK, Lightning, TP, Alter Environment, Force Drain and so on would be far too much for them to handle. However, collectively (adding in Savage and Maul and assuming they can use their powers collectively without actually just failing) they would do well against him. Their TK might be able to overpower/stalemate his, or something near that. However, in virtually all other categories, Force-wise, they fall short against Palpatine.

Overall, Team 2 has a lot of meat shields they can use for protection while the others actually fight, but if Palpatine targeted the greatest potential threats and eliminated them first, then there is no way Team 2 is winning. It's those greatest threats that will carry a chance for Team 2 to be victorious, if they are lost, that chance is lost also.

#13 Posted by ShootingNova (15264 posts) - - Show Bio

Of course, with Vader in here Team 1 win for certain.

#14 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

@Stompa said:

the fight takes place in his office so the space is rather small and maybe this could help the team.

That could be. Then again, the tight pressure could just prompt Palpatine to start abusing his Force powers more instead of trying to fight directly.

I find that highly more likely.

In the event that they manage to surround Palpatine. (which i believe is already unlikely) I think Palpatine would unleash a Force Scream or wave that launches them back. Further, if he actually get's stressed by the combat skill, he would likely react by abusing Dooku's team with Force Powers.

Honestly, i don't see the Team managing to take more than 1 win. Palpatine is simply too powerful and fast for them.

#15 Posted by Stompa (1255 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

Which Grievous is this, specifically? As said already, pre-TCW Grievous would be the greatest threat on Team 2 (minus Dooku) due to his durability, strength, speed, skill and tactical cunning. If it's TCW Grievous, he would probably just feed Palpatine another kill and wreck it for his team.

Well to give the team a better shot this is pre-TCW Griev and i will look for the right pic.

#16 Posted by JediXMan (29286 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going with Palpatine after a good fight.

#17 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said:

Combined, however, they are probably capable of overwhelming Palpatine (in sheer duelling), granted they are able to actually fight and not get speedblitzed.

But therein lies the problem. And unless I misunderstood you (which is possible), it would require more than a simple combination of Dooku and Ventress to pose any challenge whatsoever to Palpatine. Both together would be stomped by him, whether he speedblitzes them or not; it would need to be both Dooku and Ventress as well as the others on their team to be a threat to him. So, no, they would not be capable of overwhelming in his sheer dueling at all. He has several means by which he can casually kill them. On that note, really the reason I barely discussed lightsaber skill very much and more addressed power and physical stats is because these characters' combat skills are for the most part meaningless. It makes no difference how skilled they are; if they are unable to actually react to the blade of their foe, their skill amounts to nothing. The only circumstance under which fighting ability would become a factor is if the team surrounded Palpatine. In that scenario, they would still not be capable of reacting to his saber strokes, but it would help them in a coordinated effort if they could release blows at the right time with the right precision. Even then, that plan is hardly infallible. 
@JamesKM716 said: 

In the event that they manage to surround Palpatine. (which i believe is already unlikely)

The more I consider it, the more I start to believe it would be unlikely as well. There really is no reason for Palpatine to stand in one place for very long, and he is not so stupid as a strategist or so inept in his Force perceptions to not calculate that surrounding him would be an obvious tactic. In most of his duels, it is completely in character for him to slash at his enemies while charging at them as fast as he can. Aside from, presumably, his first duel with Luke (which is still unclear as to what degree he used that tactic), the only times he has not sprinted at his enemies are when the environment restricts him from doing that, he is willfully holding back, or he is simply enjoying himself enough to want to protract the fight. Here? I think he would recognize it would be dangerous for him to make himself open to an attack.
#18 Posted by ShootingNova (15264 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stompa: Okay.

@Silver2467: I realize that. And I was more referring to the team all coming at him at once (so all of the Lightsaber duelists). Though generally, I see Palpatine winning.