Darth Sidious and Count Dooku vs Sauron and Saruman

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Silver2467

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#451  Edited By Silver2467
@G1d3on said:

It should also be noted that Palpatine claims that conjuring a Force Storm requires nothing but “mere thought and inclination” (The Essential Guide to the Force); according to both The Dark Empire Sourcebook and Luke Skywalker’s commentary in The Jedi Path, it possesses the power to destroy worlds—or, more accurately, obliterate planetary surfaces. The obvious question is whether or not he could use it in combat. On the one hand, he demonstrates sufficient control over the storms to safely transport Luke and R2D2 from Coruscant to a Lictor-class dungeon ship en route to Byss while simultaneously disposing of the mountains of debris and detritus consumed by the wormhole (including, I believe, a collapsed AT-AT). Combined with his apparent ability to summon them at whim, the argument could be made that he could either approximate one to consume his enemies and dispose of them or, failing that, safely transport himself across interstellar distances while destroying the victim. On the other hand, Palpatine never elects to wield it in personal combat—suggesting he cannot or is unsure of his ability to do so effectively; likewise, Luke was rendered unconscious during the transmigration, which could feasibly happen to Palpatine... with obvious disastrous effects.

This is true, but there are circumstances to consider. When Palpatine died on the second Death Star, he opened a wormhole that transported him to Kaal without any noticeable damage to the Death Star itself, and this wormhole was minute enough to fit inside the reactor shaft he fell down. If he can conjure one of that size, that supports the argument for him creating one in personal combat. Another issue to note is that the Brotherhood of Darkness created a variant of a Force Storm (it seemed to lack the hyperspace quality of Palpatine's power but still with a similar maw and devastating properties). With that said, if they can form a Force Storm without destroying themselves, I have no doubt Palpatine can as well. On the subject of Sidious never electing to do so in any of his fights, there were never any situations that either called for it or were feasible for him to do so. In his first duel with Luke on Byss, Sidious just wanted to subvert Luke, not kill him. In their second duel, he was being repulsed by Leia and Anakin's Force Harmony, which blocked off Palpatine's powers from influencing them directly (which is why when Palpatine touched Leia's womb, he was repelled). There are simply no situations that offered the opportunity for him to have done so. As well, his skill in coordinating his wormholes is impressive. As you pointed out, he collected Luke from Coruscant with his Storm dropping onto the planet's surface almost exactly where Luke was. He also produced a wormhole that ravaged a dozen ships above Da Soocha and then proceeded to engulf the moon and damage the Republic base established there, all while standing in orbit over Da Soocha in the Eclipse. The only reason his Force Storm was turned on him was, as you know, because Luke, Leia, and Anakin wrenched control over it away from him and returned it onto its source. So given his precision, I seen no reason he would not be able to just open a wormhole mid-combat. With that said, even if Sidious would defeat himself in the process, his running speed is more than sufficient that he could just travel a certain distance away from his enemies and then summon a Force Storm to attack them. He has run faster than other superhumanly fast Force sensitives can see him; so covering a couple hundred meters should be no problem (I seem to recall Roan Shryne, Bol Chatak, and Olee Starstone running around ten kilometers in a very short period of time; Sidious could do better over a shorter distance). So whether he would consume himself or not, he can form wormholes that are compact enough to be created inside reactor shafts, his movement speed is enough to escape the area anyway, and his accurate control over his wormholes should ensure that it is a plausible enough tactic for a fight. 
 
EDIT: I should also point out that when the Force Storm over Coruscant was heading toward the planet, there was a Republic frigate that was near its path that was completely undamaged (its systems were shut off by the magnetic properties of the wormhole, but it was never drawn into it). If the Force Storm left that alone, I am confident Palpatine can choose not to be drawn into it as well.
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G1d3on

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#452  Edited By G1d3on

@@Silver2467 said:

@G1d3on said:

It should also be noted that Palpatine claims that conjuring a Force Storm requires nothing but “mere thought and inclination” (The Essential Guide to the Force); according to both The Dark Empire Sourcebook and Luke Skywalker’s commentary in The Jedi Path, it possesses the power to destroy worlds—or, more accurately, obliterate planetary surfaces. The obvious question is whether or not he could use it in combat. On the one hand, he demonstrates sufficient control over the storms to safely transport Luke and R2D2 from Coruscant to a Lictor-class dungeon ship en route to Byss while simultaneously disposing of the mountains of debris and detritus consumed by the wormhole (including, I believe, a collapsed AT-AT). Combined with his apparent ability to summon them at whim, the argument could be made that he could either approximate one to consume his enemies and dispose of them or, failing that, safely transport himself across interstellar distances while destroying the victim. On the other hand, Palpatine never elects to wield it in personal combat—suggesting he cannot or is unsure of his ability to do so effectively; likewise, Luke was rendered unconscious during the transmigration, which could feasibly happen to Palpatine... with obvious disastrous effects.

This is true, but there are circumstances to consider. When Palpatine died on the second Death Star, he opened a wormhole that transported him to Kaal without any noticeable damage to the Death Star itself, and this wormhole was minute enough to fit inside the reactor shaft he fell down. If he can conjure one of that size, that supports the argument for him creating one in personal combat. Another issue to note is that the Brotherhood of Darkness created a variant of a Force Storm (it seemed to lack the hyperspace quality of Palpatine's power but still with a similar maw and devastating properties). With that said, if they can form a Force Storm without destroying themselves, I have doubt Palpatine can as well. On the subject of Sidious never electing to do so in any of his fights, there were never any situations that either called for it or were feasible for him to do so. In his first duel with Luke on Byss, Sidious just wanted to subvert Luke, not kill him. In their second duel, he was being repulsed by Leia and Anakin's Force Harmony, which blocked off Palpatine's powers from influencing them directly (which is why when Palpatine touched Leia's womb, he was repelled). There are simply no situations that offered the opportunity for him to have done so. As well, his skill in coordinating his wormholes is impressive as well. As you pointed out, he collected Luke from Coruscant with his Storm dropping onto the planet's surface almost exactly where Luke was. He also produced a wormhole that ravaged a dozen ships above Da Soocha and then proceeded to engulf the moon and damage the Republic base established there, all while standing in orbit over Da Soocha in the Eclipse. The only reason his Force Storm was turned on him was, as you know, because Luke, Leia, and Anakin wrenched control over it away from him and returned it onto its source. So given his precision, I seen no reason he would not be able to just open a wormhole mid-combat. With that said, even if Sidious would defeat himself in the process, his running speed is more than sufficient that he could just travel a certain distance away from his enemies and then summon a Force Storm to attack them. He has run faster than other superhumanly fast Force sensitives can see him; so covering a couple hundred meters should be no problem (I seem to recall Roan Shryne, Bol Chatak, and Olee Starstone running around ten kilometers in a very short period of time; Sidious could do better over a shorter distance). So whether he would consume himself or not, he can form wormholes that are compact enough to be created inside reactor shafts, his movement speed is enough to escape the area anyway, and his accurate control over his wormholes should ensure that it is a plausible enough tactic for a fight.

Some valid points, I just have a few remarks. First, where is the source that says Palpatine escaped the Death Star via wormhole? I thought his essence simply floated across space on its own to Kaal, I believe, whereupon the Emperor took possession of Jeng Droga. Second, recall that Palpatine activated a Force Storm against the rebel fleet rather than the duelist who had just defeated him; would the initial selection of a target not suggest that Palpatine couldn’t unleash a Force Storm in such close proximity to Luke or was, at least, unsure of his ability to do so?

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Silver2467

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#453  Edited By Silver2467
@G1d3on  said: 

Some valid points, I just have a few remarks. First, where is the source that says Palpatine escaped the Death Star via wormhole? I thought his essence simply floated across space on its own to Kaal, I believe, whereupon the Emperor took possession of Jeng Droga.

This was retconned actually (no idea why).

The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadowto plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier torend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.

--Taken from Gamer #5  

"Rending space" and "transmigrating his essence" is reminiscent of a wormhole, which tears apart the fabric of space and time to transport matter through hyperspace. So he opened a miniature Force Storm for just an instant to teleport himself to Kaal. This was also before Palpatine had fully mastered the ability (which is probably why he chose not to simply transport himself directly to Byss).  
 

Second, recall that Palpatine activated a Force Storm against the rebel fleet rather than the duelist who had just defeated him; would the initial selection of a target not suggest that Palpatine couldn’t unleash a Force Storm in such close proximity to Luke or was, at least, unsure of his ability to do so?

That could be the case. Were I to argue against that, I could point out what I already did: that Leia and Anakin had succeeded in repulsing his powers previously and shielded Luke from him during their duel (the DE sourcebook describes Harmony as a pure manifestation of light side energy, and those types of powers always weaken dark siders, which is why Luke won their second deul). I would also like to point out that Palpatine was making a show of his power to Luke by destroying the Republic fleet stationed there (he went on a rant about how Luke failed to grasp how powerful he is and intended to "prove" it to him by his wormhole). Your point is a valid one, but it could be interpreted a different way, is all I'm saying. Whether your interpretation is correct or not, I have no idea. It was never really stated one way or another; all we know is that Palpatine was infuriated over Luke's underestimation of him and accused Luke of wanting to take over the galaxy (which is paranoia that probably comes as a result of cloning instability). 
 
Also, I made an edit on my earlier post that might be worth considering:
@Silver2467 said:
EDIT: I should also point out that when the Force Storm over Coruscant was heading toward the planet, there was a Republic frigate that was near its path that was completely undamaged (its systems were shut off by the magnetic properties of the wormhole, but it was never drawn into it). If the Force Storm left that alone, I am confident Palpatine can choose not to be drawn into it as well.
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ShootingNova

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#454  Edited By ShootingNova

From known feats, Sidious and Dooku win easily.

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Sci_Fi_Rulez

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#455  Edited By Sci_Fi_Rulez

Sidious solos.I see suaron and saruman going in a Blackhole.

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#456  Edited By ShootingNova

@Sci_Fi_Rulez said:

Sidious solos.I see suaron and saruman going in a Blackhole.

He has also shown superior speed feats, so he can speedblitz/slice off Sauron's finger with the ring again to defeat him, Saruman isn't much harder and Sidious slices through his body.

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#457  Edited By Sci_Fi_Rulez

@ShootingNova said:

@Sci_Fi_Rulez said:

Sidious solos.I see suaron and saruman going in a Blackhole.

He has also shown superior speed feats, so he can speedblitz/slice off Sauron's finger with the ring again to defeat him, Saruman isn't much harder and Sidious slices through his body.

Or that aha...Team 1 in a murderstomp.

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xan84

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#458  Edited By xan84

Sidious can just create a forcestorm (that destryoed a fleat of ships) to destroy Suaron, Sauram and all of Mount Doom.

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ShootingNova

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#459  Edited By ShootingNova

@xan84 said:

Sidious can just create a forcestorm (that destryoed a fleat of ships) to destroy Suaron, Sauram and all of Mount Doom.

He could wipe the surface of Middle-Earth with it...

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deadpool6_6_6

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#460  Edited By deadpool6_6_6

LOTR Has my vote.

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#461  Edited By xan84

@deadpool6_6_6 based on?

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#462  Edited By Baldy

@justleader said:

@Baldy: i know sauron is from the race of maia he is a demigod and is a god compared to star wars characters and tell me if im wrong.

You're correct. Sauron is indeed one of the Maiar. That doesn't change the fact that he isn't a deity, semi-deity, quasi-deity or anything of the sort.

Tolkien himself considers Sauron to be a "minor spirit".

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#463  Edited By ShootingNova

@xan84 said:

@deadpool6_6_6 based on?

I don't know what.

@Baldy said:

@justleader said:

@Baldy: i know sauron is from the race of maia he is a demigod and is a god compared to star wars characters and tell me if im wrong.

You're correct. Sauron is indeed one of the Maiar. That doesn't change the fact that he isn't a deity, semi-deity, quasi-deity or anything of the sort.

Tolkien himself considers Sauron to be a "minor spirit".

Exactly. Also, Sauron's army was devoted to Melkor/Morgoth even after the latter's demise (he was defeated, thrown through the Door of Night and cast into the Void).

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#464  Edited By justleader

@Baldy: i know that sauron is a demigod but im saying that he is a god compared to satr wars characters

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#465  Edited By Baldy

@justleader said:

@Baldy: i know that sauron is a demigod but im saying that he is a god compared to satr wars characters

So you're saying that the guy that got beaten up by a wolfhound is a god compared to a guy that can wipe out a fleet of star ships with a thought.

Yeah, I can see how that might make sense.

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#466  Edited By justleader

when did sauron got beaten by a wolfhound and who can wipe out a fleet of star ships?

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#467  Edited By Baldy

@justleader said:

when did sauron got beaten by a wolfhound and who can wipe out a fleet of star ships?

He was defeated by Huan the wolfhound and ran away.

Sideous is capable of destroying fleets of ships and wiping out the surface of planets with a thought using his force storms.

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VercingetorixTheGreat

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@Baldy: To be fair Huan is pretty bad*** but wouldn't the force not affect the LOTR team? I mean they are from another universe the Force wouldn't affect them like the Yuuzhan Vong. But your right Sauron is nothing compared to Morgoth or stronger LOTR characters.

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#469  Edited By justleader

@Baldy: and when has sideous do that!!?

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#470  Edited By xan84

@VercingetorixTheGreat What logic is that? Of course the force would work. You see us arguing that Sauron/Saurman's magic would not work because there is none in the real world/sw universe? Its absurd. Also the only special ability that wolf had is to talk 3 times, then is the fact that its bigger then normal ones... Still compared that to ships that Sidious can wipe with a wave of a hand is. Well nonsense. Sidious wins. @justleader You have the pic on the privious page where Sidious wipes an entire fleet with the force storm.. Are you blind??

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@xan84: ? No its perfectly plausible that the Force wouldn't work on them. Sauron's magic could do damage to Sidious because its never been shown to be stopped by anything like the Force has. Yuuhzan Vong anyone? Heck Lightsabers would not affect Sauron because they are not magic blades. But if Force did affect Sauron and Sarumon and lightsabers did affect Sauron then I would say that the Star Wars team stomps. But again they might and they might not.

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#472  Edited By xan84

@VercingetorixTheGreat Its not pausible at all. There is no evidence the force would not work on any of them. Physical force more then works on them. Just lift them and crush them. Show me 1 feat that would demonstrate Saruman has any type of defence. If you have any then he can't. Also not only magic weapons work on Sauron... Also claws as a wolf was able to beat the shit out of him.. Now compare claws to a lightsaber... See where you get to.

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#473  Edited By Baldy

@VercingetorixTheGreat said:

@xan84: ? No its perfectly plausible that the Force wouldn't work on them. Sauron's magic could do damage to Sidious because its never been shown to be stopped by anything like the Force has. Yuuhzan Vong anyone? Heck Lightsabers would not affect Sauron because they are not magic blades. But if Force did affect Sauron and Sarumon and lightsabers did affect Sauron then I would say that the Star Wars team stomps. But again they might and they might not.

Not plausible at all. The Yuuhzan Vong ARE able to be affected by the force, they just can't be sensed through it and it's specific to their race. The only creatures that I can think of off the top of my head that are immune to the force are the Ysimilari.

Even IF Sauron couldn't be affected by the force, and I don't see why he wouldn't. He would be ripped apart in seconds by two force augmented hugely talented precognitive swordsmen.

I see no references of Sauron using magic AT ALL beside simple mind tricks and the creation of the ring. Not to mention the lack of any evidence of LoTR magic being able to affect characters from other universes. As such it's just as plausible, If completely ridiculous.

Huan was indeed a bad*** wolfhound, the entire point in bringing it up is to prove the fact that Sauron can be harmed by mundane means. Huan's fight against Sauron was before the creation of the One Ring and thus Sauron was somewhat weaker (though by what amount is not clear).

His finger was sliced off by the broken Narsil as well and while Narsil was magical, I don't think it would have been after being shattered. Another point that I'd like to bring up is that AT NO POINT do the books give Sauron ANY feats of ANY kind to suggest that he's very powerful or supernaturally tough.

Again, Sauron lost virtually EVERY fight that he was ever in.

@justleader said:

@Baldy: and when has sideous do that!!?

There should be a picture of it in this thread somewhere if you want to look for it. If not you can find it in the Dark Empire comic series.

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ShootingNova

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#474  Edited By ShootingNova

@VercingetorixTheGreat said:

@Baldy: To be fair Huan is pretty bad*** but wouldn't the force not affect the LOTR team? I mean they are from another universe the Force wouldn't affect them like the Yuuzhan Vong. But your right Sauron is nothing compared to Morgoth or stronger LOTR characters.

Wrong, because the Yuuzhan Vong were specifically cut off from the Force. Their connections were severed.

Sidious has a far better speed, knowledge, ability, skill, precognition, and overall power for Sauron to contend with.

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VercingetorixTheGreat

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@Baldy: your right thats why I said to include Morgoth who has much better feats then Saruman and Sauron. I think Sauron could use matter manipulation (but again not on Morgoth's scale)

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#476  Edited By steelhound56

@ronki23 said:

@Baldy said:

" @MKF30 said:

"

Thank you ^. And Mace Windu for goodness sake(not even near the most powerful Jedi) could have killed Darth Sideous if not for Anakin interfearing....

Force Storm ain't doing nothin. lol Sarumans dark sorcery will put Sideous on his ass...and he can attack from a far(unlike Sidious)

And unless the ring is destroyed, you can't kill Sauron...

"
You don't know what you're talking about. Force storms are enough to destroy entire fleets of ships. Mace couldn't have beat Palpatine, he was letting Mace win to turn Anakin to the Dark Side. "
No-Mace would've won-Palpatine could've simply begged for mercy and pleaded to Anakin without electrocuting himself in the process

this is wrong. Sidious threw the fight to cement Anakin's defection to the Sith.

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ShootingNova

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#477  Edited By ShootingNova

@steelhound56: Exactly. Anybody who read the novelization would know full well Sidious was playing, his lightning was bending Windu's saber and it was beyond Windu; beyond Vaapad, and Windu was about to lose his grip on his lightsaber. Sidious stopped so he could turn Anakin to the Dark Side.

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@mkf30: your retarded go **** yourself

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Force > "Magic"

Team Sith

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Chuck Norris shows up and beats them all.

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Frodo solos vs team star wars

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I like both universes but both sauron and saruman are immortal beings while sidious and dooku are humans with powers and if both saruman and sauron go full out there will be no way to stop that power so they just troll there star wars counterparts and I know what i'm talking about having read the LOtr books and watched the movies and having watched the star wars movies and read a good amount forum arguments and comic books

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Well, I think that Count Dooku would win in a fight between him and Saruman. Their powers are almost evenly balanced, but Dooku has force lightning. He also is a much more skilled swordsman.

Between Sauron and Sidious... hmm... when you think about it, Sauron doesn’t really have powers, he just controls and corrupts others through the ring. So Sidious would be much more powerful, but his frail, small body, though very flexible, would have trouble fighting Sauron’s strong, towering body. Still though, I believe Sidious would win because of his power and skill advantage.

So Star Wars definitely would win. Sidious and Dooku were a very powerful pair, possibly making a stronger group than Vader and Sidious. Saruman is just a sorcerer, Sauron a ruler, neither of them true warriors.

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LOTR team is virtually featless. Star Wars stomp