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#1 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Plagueis

VS

Darth Sidious

Rules:

  • Darth Plagueis at his prime.
  • Standard equipment for both.
  • Regular morals and mindsets apply.
  • Random encounter. No prep.
  • Victory via death, KO, or incapacitation.
  • Battle takes place on the plains of Naboo, daytime, unpopulated.
  • Combatants begin twenty meters apart.

Four Rounds:

  • Round 1: Darth Plagueis vs TPM Darth Sidious
  • Round 2: Darth Plagueis vs RotS Darth Sidious
  • Round 3: Darth Plagueis vs RotJ Darth Sidious
  • Round 4: Darth Plagueis vs DE Darth Sidious

#2 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (24111 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: Long time no see Silver =D

Hmmm I will have to think about this one,nice battle.

#4 Posted by Owie (3692 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to enjoy sitting back and watching this one. Good to see a serious battle against Sidious.

#5 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: Thanks.

@owie: Assuming the users I called in show up and give a legitimate amount of thought to this, this should be a worthwhile discussion. I will reserve my conclusions until later, but Rounds 1 and 3, in my opinion, have the most potential discussion value.

#6 Posted by Owie (3692 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: Thanks.

@owie: Assuming the users I called in show up and give a legitimate amount of thought to this, this should be a worthwhile discussion. I will reserve my conclusions until later, but Rounds 1 and 3, in my opinion, have the most potential discussion value.

Interesting. I was going to assume rounds 2 and 4 were his highest. Shows what I know. I guess it makes sense that 3 would be higher since he's had more time to mature, I just can't get the image of him being picked up and tossed down a chute out of my head :) But I know there's more backstory to that than in the movie. Visuals just make a strong imprint in one's mind, rightly or wrongly.

#7 Posted by ImBoredLetsDebate (477 posts) - - Show Bio

tfw not summoned ;(

#8 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@imboredletsdebate: Sorry, forgot. I haven't been here in a while.

@owie: When I say "potential discussion value," I mean the ones that are most arguable and have the most factors to consider. Rounds 1 and 3 have more room for interpretation, from my perspective at least, and I think they are the closest out of the four matchups.

#9 Posted by ImBoredLetsDebate (477 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

Can I get back to you on this? :P

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#11 Edited by JediXMan (30321 posts) - - Show Bio

Plagueis should win round 1. I don't think Palpatine was necessarily good enough at that point to beat Plagueis in a fair fight. He took him off guard and was victorious. But if they were in a straight forward, Bane vs Zannah-like duel, I think Plagueis would have won.

Palpatine takes the rest, though. The second round might be a decent fight. I think Palpatine might stomp in the other two, though; I am of the opinion that RotJ and DE Palpatine are one in the same. The reason being that DE Palpatine just had the chance to cut loose, whereas he had no excuse to do so prior. RotJ Palpatine should be able to do everything DE can, the only difference being that it appeared DE Palpatine had more experience with essence transfer than RotJ.

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#12 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget said:

Can I get back to you on this? :P

Well, it's not like I can force you to post now. :P

@jedixman said:

Plagueis should win round 1. I don't think Palpatine was necessarily good enough at that point to beat Plagueis in a fair fight. He took him off guard and was victorious. But if they were in a straight forward, Bane vs Zannah-like duel, I think Plagueis would have won.

Palpatine takes the rest, though. The second round might be a decent fight. I think Palpatine might stomp in the other two, though; I am of the opinion that RotJ and DE Palpatine are one in the same. The reason being that DE Palpatine just had the chance to cut loose, whereas he had no excuse to do so prior. RotJ Palpatine should be able to do everything DE can, the only difference being that it appeared DE Palpatine had more experience with essence transfer than RotJ.

Interesting. How much of a majority do you think Plagueis would win?

RotJ and DE Sidious are not quite the same. Not only does DE Palpatine have the benefit of a youthful body, but he has been established as spending time secluded in study to grow more powerful than he ever was before and perfected his control over some of his powers, like the Force Storm. He also has more definitively tested lightsaber skill than RotJ Palpatine, who, as far as we know, has not been in a duel in over two decades, which makes it possible that his lightsaber skill has atrophied. I also doubt it would be a stomp, even if we did conclude that Palpatine would win every single encounter. I'm not saying it would be terribly strenuous necessarily either, but then, that's what we're here to discuss.

#13 Posted by JediXMan (30321 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting. How much of a majority do you think Plagueis would win?

Hmm... 6/10. It would be close but I give Plagueis the edge.

For RotS, I give Palpatine the win 7-8/10. 10/10 for the last two.


RotJ and DE Sidious are not quite the same. Not only does DE Palpatine have the benefit of a youthful body, but he perfected his control over some of his powers, like the Force Storm. He also has more definitively tested lightsaber skill than RotJ Palpatine, who, as far as we know, has not been in a duel in over two decades, which makes it possible that his lightsaber skill has atrophied. I also doubt it would be a stomp, even if we did conclude that Palpatine would win every single encounter. I'm not saying it would be terribly strenuous necessarily either, but then, that's what we're here to discuss.

I don't think the youthful body did anything for him. It's obvious that Palpatine was still very skilled in RotS, and frankly, he doesn't look a whole lot different than RotJ. He may have been worn, but the body was worn from years of use of the Dark Side, not age, as shown when the bodies - which were weaker than his original body - wore out.

His use of Force Storm is vague. Now I might be wrong, but when was it stated that Palpatine learned Force Storm after RotJ? I believe source books said he knew all forms (well, most forms; far as we know, he didn't know Flow Walking, Fold Space, or other abilities not utilized by the Jedi and Sith). I still stand that he could have used it in RotJ, but had no reason to. As we saw, he was overconfident, which was his undoing. He didn't use it; does not mean that he couldn't.

Again, when would he have had the need to use his lightsaber? I still think he was capable of everything he did in DE in RotJ. Also, I think it was stated (I have no source, and I don't remember) that he continued to train his body after he became the Emperor. Plus, who would he have trained with between RotJ and DE? He was at a level where he was stomping Luke without effort.

Fine, Luke wasn't in his prime, either, but he was still extremely powerful at that moment. If I recall, didn't you yourself consider Luke (NR) vs Plagueis to be a good fight? If that's the case, then what's to say that Palpatine DE wouldn't be as simple as this:

Here's how I see it: Palpatine is the Dark Side version of Yoda. He's old, but that never slowed him down. Give him a lightsaber again and he'll still be able to use it. I'm not saying that this comparison is why I think he's powerful; it's just a good example of what I'm saying.

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#14 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

Hmm... 6/10. It would be close but I give Plagueis the edge.

For RotS, I give Palpatine the win 7-8/10. 10/10 for the last two.

I see. Why do you think Plagueis would win a majority? Who do you think is more powerful? Who do you think is more skilled? Who do you think possesses more physical strength and speed?

I'm sure I could guess at your reasons, but why do you think RotS Sidious wins a majority?

@jedixman said:

I don't think the youthful body did anything for him. It's obvious that Palpatine was still very skilled in RotS, and frankly, he doesn't look a whole lot different than RotJ. He may have been worn, but the body was worn from years of use of the Dark Side, not age, as shown when the bodies - which were weaker than his original body - wore out.

This is semantics, but technically, the aging process and emaciation were exacerbated by the dark side. It's not so much the fact that RotJ Palpatine has twenty+ years of natural age on RotS Sidious; it's that he has twenty+ years of dark side deformities on RotS Sidious. He may not look that much different for the most part, but it can be difficult to discern at times whether he was truly of the same vigor as he was years before or not. This problem is only made worse by sources. Some sources I have found seem to indicate that the Emperor gradually became physically weaker and weaker over time, like the Dark Empire endnotes, while others implicate that the Emperor remained strong into his old age by utilizing the dark side to subsist himself bodily, like the Technical Journal (IIRC).

@jedixman said:

His use of Force Storm is vague. Now I might be wrong, but when was it stated that Palpatine learned Force Storm after RotJ? I believe source books said he knew all forms (well, most forms; far as we know, he didn't know Flow Walking, Fold Space, or other abilities not utilized by the Jedi and Sith). I still stand that he could have used it in RotJ, but had no reason to. As we saw, he was overconfident, which was his undoing. He didn't use it; does not mean that he couldn't.

Actually, he did employ his Force Storm as he fell down the reactor shaft of the second Death Star to transport his spirit to Kaal in order to possess Jeng Droga (this is a retcon from the original story, which was simply that his spirit traveled over space to Byss). He could use the Force Storm already; he just had not mastered it yet.

The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadowto plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.

--Taken from Gamer #5

And sources have told us that DE Palpatine is more powerful than RotJ Palpatine.

Resurrected in a youthful clone body, Palpatine does not reveal himself immediately. Studying the dark side of the Force to become more powerful, his education results in three manifestos: The Book of Anger, The Weakness of Inferiors, and The Creation of Monsters.

--Taken from The Ultimate Visual Guide

Palpatine knew precisely why the Empire couldn’t last without his dread power: he had designed it that way. No one ever suspected how much he relied on the Dark Side of the Force. He shaped those of his government by using the Force against them. He used it to control his fleets and to drive his soldiers on to victory. He used it to destroy his enemies from a distance and learn of conspiracies against him. Without it, there was no way the Empire could endure, as he had designed it. The Dark Side flowed through him like some primordial ichor and was the key to all his power.
Soon he was ready to strike. Fully healed and in greater control of the Dark Side than ever, he finally acted to end the Mutiny.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

@jedixman said:

Again, when would he have had the need to use his lightsaber? I still think he was capable of everything he did in DE in RotJ. Also, I think it was stated (I have no source, and I don't remember) that he continued to train his body after he became the Emperor. Plus, who would he have trained with between RotJ and DE? He was at a level where he was stomping Luke without effort.

Actually, if anything, lightsabers became more and more foreign to Palpatine after the formation of the Empire, seeing as he already saw lightsabers as an anachronism to the Sith with their only real use being to "humiliate Jedi," and there were no more Jedi for him to personally fight. Like I said, it is possible his skills declined over time; it might be conjecture but not much more or less than the inverse conclusion. I also would hardly say that he was "stomping" Luke; their fight was not easy for Palpatine, based on the comic and audio drama (and, yes, I am already aware of your feelings pertaining to audio dramas; just let me have this :P ).

@jedixman said:

Fine, Luke wasn't in his prime, either, but he was still extremely powerful at that moment. If I recall, didn't you yourself consider Luke (NR) vs Plagueis to be a good fight? If that's the case, then what's to say that Palpatine DE wouldn't be as simple as this:

Maybe it will be. I never said it would be a brutal fight or anything; honestly, I'm not even really trying to debate with you, JXM. I'm mostly just here to stir the pot to incite more responses out of whoever posts until I voice my own opinion.

No, I understand, and that comparison has actually been used narratively, such as in Labyrinth of Evil and Revenge of the Sith. It is a valid illustration.

#15 Edited by Immortal777 (7352 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be interesting.

#16 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1:

I agree with what JXM said, mostly. I think Plaguies could take 7/10, but that's basically the only difference.

Plagueis certainly takes the majority I think. His Midichlorian Manipulation abilities should help him out slightly. Also, I think it depends somewhat on Plagueis' mindset. A major reason why Palpatine managed to kill him when he did was that Plagueis basically allowed it. He didn't fight back at all really IIRC. Plagueis' saber feats are few and far between, but they are significantly good. He sped fighting an army without being touched. Also to consider, when Palpatine made an orbit around Plagueis to defend him. (I think you know what Feat I'm talking about), anyway considering that that was during Palpatine's training. I'd logically conclude that Plagueis could maintain at least the same amount of speed, if not more. It's not fact, but I think it's logical enough.

Overall, Plagueis Force abilities and showings, IIRC are superior to any of Palpatine's up to this point. That said, I don't think we know the upper limits of either combatant. But, from what I personally know and remember, Plagueis should be able to take the majority for this round.

Round 2: Palpatine should take 7-8/10

The deciding difference between Round 1 and 2 is that Palpatine is significantly better at dueling and faster. While I think there's a solid chance that Plagueis could utilize his Force abilities to confuse Palpatine and snag a win, I think it's more likely that Palpatine should be able to win.

A worthy feat is Palpatine stomping Maul and Savage who had proven to be highly skilled; and also Palpatine's domination of the Jedi Strike Team sent to "arrest" him. Near-Relativistic speeds.

Round 3 & Round 4: Palpatine 10/10

There's not really any feat from Plagueis that comes to mind that would allow him to take on Sidious at this level. Even if he managed to "kill" Sidious what's stopping him from taking over Plagueis' body?

#17 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

His Midichlorian Manipulation abilities should help him out slightly.

In what way do you think?

He sped fighting an army without being touched.

Yes, but so did Sidious.

Also to consider, when Palpatine made an orbit around Plagueis to defend him. (I think you know what Feat I'm talking about), anyway considering that that was during Palpatine's training. I'd logically conclude that Plagueis could maintain at least the same amount of speed, if not more. It's not fact, but I think it's logical enough.

Plagueis actually deflected fire before Sidious did. Sidious took his turn to deflect blaster fire after Plagueis. So, no, it is fact since he already did it.

The deciding difference between Round 1 and 2 is that Palpatine is significantly better at dueling and faster.

Why do you think so?

While I think there's a solid chance that Plagueis could utilize his Force abilities to confuse Palpatine and snag a win

How would do that?

There's not really any feat from Plagueis that comes to mind that would allow him to take on Sidious at this level. Even if he managed to "kill" Sidious what's stopping him from taking over Plagueis' body?

Well, in a contest of will between the two, which do you think would win? If you believe Plagueis has the more potent will, that could stop Sidious from taking over Plagueis' body.

Details, details. I must know more about your analysis. Not trying to pick apart your decision; as I said earlier:

In other words,

#18 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467

In what way do you think?

Not to a significant margin, as IIRC Plagueis Midi-chlorian manipulation tactics took time to use, but I'd suggest that Plagueis abilities in that department could affect the duel slightly; primarily because it's an ability that Palpatine doesn't really know how to use.

Yes, but so did Sidious

Fair enough, I'm really just mentioning his speed feats to establish how fast he was. Which, I don't think we've ever learned the upper limits of his speed, but he was at least fast enough to face an army and not get touched. Which is fast. Is that faster than Sidious? No, but It's not lower than anything Sidious accomplished by TPM.

Plagueis actually deflected fire before Sidious did. Sidious took his turn to deflect blaster fire after Plagueis. So, no, it is fact since he already did it.

Oh well. That certainly helps my point.

Why do you think so?

Mainly because everything I've seen/remember of Palpatine up to TPM, while impressive, no where near matches the later speed, strength, skill and ability that he's portrayed with later in the EU.

Look at it like this, Palpatine's greatest Speed feat up to TPM (IIRC) is racing around blocking laser fire around Plagueis. That's a top notch feat that puts Palpatine's speed at least on the level of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker. In fact I think He'd defeat them in a big majority.

Contrast that to Palpatine's greatest speed feat up to RotS, where he's moving at such speeds Anakin Skywalker sees Palpatine and Mace as a blur. Taken as just that it doesn't sound all that great. But considering that earlier Anakin was seeing sub-light speeds it increases the impressiveness of Palpatine's speed feat tenfold. Further, as you yourself have explained, it seems likely that Palpatine was holding back.

That's a huge increase in speed from TPM to RotS. Plagueis has never shown speed levels that high. Do I think that Plagueis can hit those levels? No not quite, but I certainly believe that Plagueis speed is great enough that Palpatine's speed isn't going to win the duel for him.

Does this make sense? If I rank Palpatine's speed a 10 and Plagueis speed an 8, while a 10 and an 8 can still have a duel, the 8 could even win. But the favor lies with Palpatine. The advantage is Palpatine's.

How would do that?

I'm primarily referring to Plagueis Force Scream when I said that. IIRC Plagueis was beginning to get somewhat overwhelmed, and so he unleashed the Scream which hurt his assailant's ears, crushed/disintegrated bone and did lots more damaging stuff. I'd wager that if Plagueis unleashed a Force Scream during his duel with Palpatine it would at least throw the apprentice off-guard. Further a Force Scream is just one of many abilities Plagueis could use. He has a tendency to unleash his Force abilities during combat, and to my knowledge of Palpatine, Sidious doesn't so much. He uses Lightning sure, and He did use a Force Scream IIRC at the beginning of his duel with the Jedi Strike Team, but overall? in the battles that I'm remembering at the moment Palpatine doesn't. And sure some of that is that Palpatine is just messing with his opponents which happens often. Still overall, I think Plagueis tendencies to use his Force powers more often than Palpatine does.

Also if you reference Palpatine's usage of the Force against his family when he murdered them I'd point out that he hadn't learned any combat training then. It was all Palpatine's natural ability.

Well, in a contest of will between the two, which do you think would win? If you believe Plagueis has the more potent will, that could stop Sidious from taking over Plagueis' body.

Honestly I think Sidious has a greater will. I'd wager that if Plagueis will was stronger he would have survived Palpatine's attempt to kill him. Instead he actually died. Both have powerful Wills, but Palpatine's will is one that I'm not entirely sure he can defeat.

Details, details. I must know more about your analysis. Not trying to pick apart your decision; as I said earlier:

Well it boils down to this in Round 1, Plagueis, I believe, has the speed advantage. I say this not from canon feats that we've seen of Plagueis' speeds, but instead from the fact that we haven't seen Plagueis' top speed. One can argue that we haven't seen Palpatine's upper echelons of speed either, to which I can acknowledge that it's possible that Palpatine could hit his later speed levels from RotS, but if he could hit those earlier, why didn't he?

A further note, if Palpatine were entirely confident that he could defeat Plagueis in a duel then why did Palpatine go and get Plagueis drunk, and then begin to torture him to death? Logic would imply that Palpatine was unsure whether he would win or lose his duel with Plagueis. I think that point alone could place the duel to a 5/10 tie. BUT the abilities that Plagueis has displayed (considering he's at his prime) appear greater than the abilities that Palpatine has displayed, IIRC.

The difference being in Round 2, Palpatine has substantially more showings. He has the speed advantage, the sheer power of his Force abilities is likely more powerful than Plagueis, or at least even with Plagueis. Plagueis has never been shown as an incredibly skilled duelist. (I'm not saying he's bad, he's not. I'm just wary that Plagueis could defeat the Jedi Strike Team that Sidious dominated. Not to say Plagueis couldn't win, he could, it's just a significantly closer duel.)

All of Palpatine's feats that I remember indicate that he has a power bump between TPM and RotS. (Perhaps when the Dark Side enters him after the death of Plagueis?)

Hope that explains my position a bit better.

#19 Posted by Verados (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin seeing Sidious as a blur is non-canon. In the movie, he enters as Windu is disarmed.

#20 Posted by tparks (4885 posts) - - Show Bio

This is too close to call for the first round. Sidious takes the rest I think.

#21 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (24111 posts) - - Show Bio

@verados said:

Anakin seeing Sidious as a blur is non-canon. In the movie, he enters as Windu is disarmed.

This is Star Wars EU,meaning it is canon.

Now time for the battle

Round 1

I would hive Plagueis the majority as pointed out,Plagueis was just more impressive then Palpatine at that point imo. And to further my stance if Palpatine could beat Plaguies in a straight up fight why did he wait to Plaguies was drunk and fallen asleep to slay him?There are three reason why Palpatine could have taken that rout:

1)Palpatine knew he could not beat Plagueis in a straight up fight at that point.

2) Palpatine wanted to make Plaguies suffer by killing him with Force Lighting and killing that way would be poetic justice so to speak, seeing as how Plaguies killed his master why he was not expecting it.

3)Palpatine probably could beat Plaguies but he was not so sure so he decided to take the easy rout instead of the hard one.

It could be any of these three honestly,but to me the most logical one is A,Mainly because Plagueis was just more impressive then Sids was at this point. As @jameskm716 already pointed out Plagiues Force abilities and showing were better then Palpatines at this point,Plagueis 7/10

Round 2

I'm going with Palpatine. Palpatine at this point is a better duelist and via feats is faster then Plagueis, while Plagueis is fast enough to contend,Palpatine is still faster then he is thus he has the advantage. While I think Plaguies is better in the Force then Palpatine at this point (I could be wrong) but Palpatine is not far off in that department either. Given Palatine's superior speed and dueling skills I give it to him Palpatine 7-8/10.

Round 3

The same as round 2 But Palpatine would have a fuller grasp of the Force and would still have the speed and dueling advantage he had last round, I'm giving it to him 10/10

Round 4

Same as round 3 But Palpatine is at his most powerful at this point and has Plaguies beat in nearly every category,speed,Force powers, dueling, etc.

#22 Edited by JediXMan (30321 posts) - - Show Bio

@verados said:

Anakin seeing Sidious as a blur is non-canon. In the movie, he enters as Windu is disarmed.

Novels are not non-canon.

Please do research on Star Wars continuity when attempting to contribute to an EU battle, which this is.

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#23 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

The discussion is taking off, as I planned. JXM is contributing, James and dc are analyzing the issue point by point. Very good.

@jameskm716 said:

Not to a significant margin, as IIRC Plagueis Midi-chlorian manipulation tactics took time to use, but I'd suggest that Plagueis abilities in that department could affect the duel slightly; primarily because it's an ability that Palpatine doesn't really know how to use.

None of this is true. Sidious actually helped Plagueis manipulate midi-chlorians to imbalance the Force, and the two of them together inadvertently conceived Anakin by controlling midi-chlorians. Sidious also appears to possess Plagueis' ability to return a being from death. The issue is not that Palpatine lacks Midi-chlorian Manipulation; the issue is that he simply never mastered it quite as thoroughly as Plagueis did. With that said, how would Plagueis affect Palpatine by Midi-chlorian Manipulation? He has never applied for any kind of combat purposes, and the only time he directed his control of midi-chlorians to harm another person was during his assassination of Veruna, wherein he took minutes to kill Veruna by influencing midi-chlorians. I fail to see how any of that would come to his aid in a fight.

@jameskm716 said:

Fair enough, I'm really just mentioning his speed feats to establish how fast he was. Which, I don't think we've ever learned the upper limits of his speed, but he was at least fast enough to face an army and not get touched. Which is fast. Is that faster than Sidious? No, but It's not lower than anything Sidious accomplished by TPM.

To be honest, I would not call Plagueis' showings against the Kursid or the combat automatons on Hypori his best speed showings; I would say his performance against Venamis boasted more speed.

@jameskm716 said:

Look at it like this, Palpatine's greatest Speed feat up to TPM (IIRC) is racing around blocking laser fire around Plagueis. That's a top notch feat that puts Palpatine's speed at least on the level of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker. In fact I think He'd defeat them in a big majority.

This is not Palpatine's best speed feat. His best speed feat by TPM was fighting faster than Maul could see on two different occasions, which is a better speed showing than anything Plagueis has accomplished. Judging from showings, Plagueis is more tantamount to Yoda with respects how fast he is with the Force; this is fast enough to contend certainly but not a speed level where he can outpace the eye of other tremendously fast Force sensitives. Contrasting the two in speed by feats only, Sidious is actually faster.

Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to lunge at the empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave's wall.

Sidious said from behind Maul, "You are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you."

Maul's anger burned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsaber again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow.

--Taken from The Wrath of Darth Maul

Suddenly, my lightsaber is gone. It flies from my hand across the room. It lands in the hand of my Master. I never see him enter. Not if he doesn't want me to. The smile of triumph fades from my face.

"Do you think," Lord Sidious says, walking toward me, "you can ever relax your guard?"

"No, Master." What a clumsy, weak mistake. I should be prepared for him to enter at all times. How could I have forgotten that, even for a moment?

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again," my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.

--Taken from Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul

@jameskm716 said:

Does this make sense? If I rank Palpatine's speed a 10 and Plagueis speed an 8, while a 10 and an 8 can still have a duel, the 8 could even win. But the favor lies with Palpatine. The advantage is Palpatine's.

Fair enough.

@jameskm716 said:

I'm primarily referring to Plagueis Force Scream when I said that. IIRC Plagueis was beginning to get somewhat overwhelmed, and so he unleashed the Scream which hurt his assailant's ears, crushed/disintegrated bone and did lots more damaging stuff. I'd wager that if Plagueis unleashed a Force Scream during his duel with Palpatine it would at least throw the apprentice off-guard. Further a Force Scream is just one of many abilities Plagueis could use. He has a tendency to unleash his Force abilities during combat, and to my knowledge of Palpatine, Sidious doesn't so much. He uses Lightning sure, and He did use a Force Scream IIRC at the beginning of his duel with the Jedi Strike Team, but overall? in the battles that I'm remembering at the moment Palpatine doesn't. And sure some of that is that Palpatine is just messing with his opponents which happens often. Still overall, I think Plagueis tendencies to use his Force powers more often than Palpatine does.

Technically, all Plagueis' Scream did was shatter the eardrums of the Maladians; that was it. Sidious actually was completely unfazed by a more devastating Force Scream released by Darth Vader; so I fail to see how Force Scream, of all things, would make much difference. That besides, Scream is usually an involuntarily used power anyway, and it would be far more inopportune to apply such a power while crossing blades with his apprentice. And honestly, Palpatine's Force abilities manifest themselves in his duels just as frequently, if not more so, than Plagueis' did. In fact, in Plagueis' one vividly shown duel which was against Venamis, he hardly employed any offensive Force powers, except an occasional Force Push here and there. Sidious, by contrast, when he is not intentionally withholding his own powers, has repeatedly brought his TK, Lightning, TP, and so on to bear in the middle of combat. If anything, Sidious, by RotS and beyond at least, is better at exerting his powers mid-duel than Plagueis has evinced.

Also, that "scream" Palpatine released against Kolar, Tiin, Fisto, and Windu was not a Force Scream; it was a telepathic confusion trick. That I am aware of, Sidious has never displayed Force Scream.

@jameskm716 said:

Honestly I think Sidious has a greater will. I'd wager that if Plagueis will was stronger he would have survived Palpatine's attempt to kill him. Instead he actually died. Both have powerful Wills, but Palpatine's will is one that I'm not entirely sure he can defeat.

All right.

@jameskm716 said:

Well it boils down to this in Round 1, Plagueis, I believe, has the speed advantage. I say this not from canon feats that we've seen of Plagueis' speeds, but instead from the fact that we haven't seen Plagueis' top speed. One can argue that we haven't seen Palpatine's upper echelons of speed either, to which I can acknowledge that it's possible that Palpatine could hit his later speed levels from RotS, but if he could hit those earlier, why didn't he?

I'm curious as to why you think we have never seen Plagueis' upper caliber of speed. He has several speed showings from which to draw from, and there really is little reason in any of them, particularly his fight with Venamis, to assume he was moving at anything less than top speed.

Regarding why if Sidious could compete with the speed he revealed in his later years, he didn't do so earlier, who says he didn't? Sidious already fought faster than Maul could see; that itself already equalizes most of his later speed feats.

@jameskm716 said:

A further note, if Palpatine were entirely confident that he could defeat Plagueis in a duel then why did Palpatine go and get Plagueis drunk, and then begin to torture him to death? Logic would imply that Palpatine was unsure whether he would win or lose his duel with Plagueis. I think that point alone could place the duel to a 5/10 tie. BUT the abilities that Plagueis has displayed (considering he's at his prime) appear greater than the abilities that Palpatine has displayed, IIRC.

I think this is a bit of a false dilemma, but fair enough.

@jameskm716 said:

The difference being in Round 2, Palpatine has substantially more showings. He has the speed advantage, the sheer power of his Force abilities is likely more powerful than Plagueis, or at least even with Plagueis. Plagueis has never been shown as an incredibly skilled duelist. (I'm not saying he's bad, he's not. I'm just wary that Plagueis could defeat the Jedi Strike Team that Sidious dominated. Not to say Plagueis couldn't win, he could, it's just a significantly closer duel.)

All of Palpatine's feats that I remember indicate that he has a power bump between TPM and RotS. (Perhaps when the Dark Side enters him after the death of Plagueis?)

Hope that explains my position a bit better.

His powers did increase after Plagueis' death, yes.

Compelling points.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Round 1

I would hive Plagueis the majority as pointed out,Plagueis was just more impressive then Palpatine at that point imo. And to further my stance if Palpatine could beat Plaguies in a straight up fight why did he wait to Plaguies was drunk and fallen asleep to slay him?There are three reason why Palpatine could have taken that rout:

1)Palpatine knew he could not beat Plagueis in a straight up fight at that point.

2) Palpatine wanted to make Plaguies suffer by killing him with Force Lighting and killing that way would be poetic justice so to speak, seeing as how Plaguies killed his master why he was not expecting it.

3)Palpatine probably could beat Plaguies but he was not so sure so he decided to take the easy rout instead of the hard one.

It could be any of these three honestly,but to me the most logical one is A,Mainly because Plagueis was just more impressive then Sids was at this point. As @jameskm716 already pointed out Plagiues Force abilities and showing were better then Palpatines at this point,Plagueis 7/10

Just to clarify a bit, what feats do you think Plagueis accomplished that TPM Sidious either hasn't or couldn't?

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Round 2

I'm going with Palpatine. Palpatine at this point is a better duelist and via feats is faster then Plagueis, while Plagueis is fast enough to contend,Palpatine is still faster then he is thus he has the advantage. While I think Plaguies is better in the Force then Palpatine at this point (I could be wrong) but Palpatine is not far off in that department either. Given Palatine's superior speed and dueling skills I give it to him Palpatine 7-8/10.

I don't really think it can be argued that Sidious is more powerful with the Force than Plagueis by RotS. Sources have told us objectively that Sidious by RotS was the single most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived; that includes Plagueis. Now, whether you believe his preponderant power over Plagueis would become relevant in a fight though, that's another matter.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Round 3

The same as round 2 But Palpatine would have a fuller grasp of the Force and would still have the speed and dueling advantage he had last round, I'm giving it to him 10/10

Round 4

Same as round 3 But Palpatine is at his most powerful at this point and has Plaguies beat in nearly every category,speed,Force powers, dueling, etc.

Could you elaborate in further detail on these?

#24 Posted by Shadow_Vertigo (18 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's fair to say that Plagueis would win round 1. Palpatine probably would never have been able to defeat Plagueis if they were on an equal playing field. But Palpatine certainly grew after Plagueis' death - even immediately after he was slain. So Palpatine should be victorious in every round afterward, with various degrees of difficulty, ending with a rather easy victory for Dark Empire Palpatine.

#26 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

None of this is true. Sidious actually helped Plagueis manipulate midi-chlorians to imbalance the Force, and the two of them together inadvertently conceived Anakin by controlling midi-chlorians. Sidious also appears to possess Plagueis' ability to return a being from death. The issue is not that Palpatine lacks Midi-chlorian Manipulation; the issue is that he simply never mastered it quite as thoroughly as Plagueis did. With that said, how would Plagueis affect Palpatine by Midi-chlorian Manipulation? He has never applied for any kind of combat purposes, and the only time he directed his control of midi-chlorians to harm another person was during his assassination of Veruna, wherein he took minutes to kill Veruna by influencing midi-chlorians. I fail to see how any of that would come to his aid in a fight.

Wait, Palpatine could return people from death? Man it's been too long since I read Darth Plagueis. Anyway, Like I said, it likely wouldn't greatly affect the duel. Conversely, Plagueis was beginning to use midi-chlorian manipulation to heal himself, isn't it likely he could do such an act here?

To be honest, I would not call Plagueis' showings against the Kursid or the combat automatons on Hypori his best speed showings; I would say his performance against Venamis boasted more speed.

I'll take your word for it.

Technically, all Plagueis' Scream did was shatter the eardrums of the Maladians; that was it. Sidious actually was completely unfazed by a more devastating Force Scream released by Darth Vader; so I fail to see how Force Scream, of all things, would make much difference. That besides, Scream is usually an involuntarily used power anyway, and it would be far more inopportune to apply such a power while crossing blades with his apprentice. And honestly, Palpatine's Force abilities manifest themselves in his duels just as frequently, if not more so, than Plagueis' did. In fact, in Plagueis' one vividly shown duel which was against Venamis, he hardly employed any offensive Force powers, except an occasional Force Push here and there. Sidious, by contrast, when he is not intentionally withholding his own powers, has repeatedly brought his TK, Lightning, TP, and so on to bear in the middle of combat. If anything, Sidious, by RotS and beyond at least, is better at exerting his powers mid-duel than Plagueis has evinced.

I just meant that i had Force Scream in mind when I wrote that. I'm probably thinking of Force Wave? I know there was a Force technique that Plagueis used that disintegrated bone and annihilated them.

In reference to Plagueis' using the Force in duels. I moreover was referring to his encounter with the mercenaries that attempted to kill him. In that battle he never particularly used a lightsaber he was using the Force to take them on IIRC. In his duel with Venamis sure, Plagueis didn't use Force abilities. But, and I honestly am debating whether I'm remembering this part correctly, but wasn't Plagueis' practically playing with Venamis? All of Plagueis inner dialogue during the duel was calm, and orderly. He never felt a sense of danger, and was in control of the duel the entire time. Why did he need to use the Force?

Also, that "scream" Palpatine released against Kolar, Tiin, Fisto, and Windu was not a Force Scream; it was a telepathic confusion trick. That I am aware of, Sidious has never displayed Force Scream.

Oh, I thought I remembered a source saying it was a Scream, my mistake

I'm curious as to why you think we have never seen Plagueis' upper caliber of speed. He has several speed showings from which to draw from, and there really is little reason in any of them, particularly his fight with Venamis, to assume he was moving at anything less than top speed.

In the novel it never really felt like (to me at least) that Venamis had a chance of winning. Plagueis seemed in control of the duel the entire time. It's just a feeling I have based on what I inferred from the novel. I could be wrong, but Plagueis never seemed pushed to his top limits in any battle we saw, EXCEPT for when he unleashed that Force Wave (I think it was a Force Wave) that obliterated the mercenaries and did all sorts of crap to them.

Regarding why if Sidious could compete with the speed he revealed in his later years, he didn't do so earlier, who says he didn't? Sidious already fought faster than Maul could see; that itself already equalizes most of his later speed feats.

How fast can Maul see at the time Sidious was moving faster?

#27 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameskm716 said:

Wait, Palpatine could return people from death? Man it's been too long since I read Darth Plagueis. Anyway, Like I said, it likely wouldn't greatly affect the duel. Conversely, Plagueis was beginning to use midi-chlorian manipulation to heal himself, isn't it likely he could do such an act here?

Sidious returned Vader from near death in Revenge of the Sith and was discussed further in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. It appears to have been done through healing techniques and Midi-chlorian Manipulation, though this was never outright stated. However, in Plagueis, Palpatine claimed he could return Plagueis from death as he killed him, but whether he was telling the truth or not is subject to interpretation. However, given that he could later, we can surmise that he either couldn't return beings from death yet and simply learned the ability to later, or he could return beings from death already.

As for healing himself, how is that feasible? A lightsaber wound is considerably more difficult to dress than a standard blade wound, and while Plagueis' healing and pain tolerance showings are impressive, I fail to see how healing powers would play much factor in this fight.

@jameskm716 said:

I just meant that i had Force Scream in mind when I wrote that. I'm probably thinking of Force Wave? I know there was a Force technique that Plagueis used that disintegrated bone and annihilated them.

In reference to Plagueis' using the Force in duels. I moreover was referring to his encounter with the mercenaries that attempted to kill him. In that battle he never particularly used a lightsaber he was using the Force to take them on IIRC. In his duel with Venamis sure, Plagueis didn't use Force abilities. But, and I honestly am debating whether I'm remembering this part correctly, but wasn't Plagueis' practically playing with Venamis? All of Plagueis inner dialogue during the duel was calm, and orderly. He never felt a sense of danger, and was in control of the duel the entire time. Why did he need to use the Force?

It was his TK, a Force Wave in particular as you said, that disintegrated targets.

Plagueis was absent a lightsaber in his fight with the Maladians; of course under that circumstance he would resort to his Force powers exclusively. The one lightsaber duel we have to gauge Plagueis' mindset and approach against another Force sensitive was against Venamis, and in the duration of that duel, as I said, Plagueis very scantly spent offensive power against Venamis. And, no, Plagueis was not just toying with him the entire time. At first, actually, Venamis may have held the advantage since he was beginning to breach Plagueis' defenses; Plagueis revised his technique which afforded him the win.

@jameskm716 said:

Oh, I thought I remembered a source saying it was a Scream, my mistake

No problem. Just for clarity's sake:

When Mace Windu led a team of Jedi Masters to apprehend Darth Sidious, none of them expected to face the power of the Sith Lord. His innocent appearance as Chancellor Palpatine, along with an application of a concentrated dark side confusion haze, enabled Darth Sidious to take down Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto, and Saesee Tiin.

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

@jameskm716 said:

In the novel it never really felt like (to me at least) that Venamis had a chance of winning. Plagueis seemed in control of the duel the entire time. It's just a feeling I have based on what I inferred from the novel. I could be wrong, but Plagueis never seemed pushed to his top limits in any battle we saw, EXCEPT for when he unleashed that Force Wave (I think it was a Force Wave) that obliterated the mercenaries and did all sorts of crap to them.

I disagree with this interpretation; nothing in the text implies it was an easy victory for Plagueis or that for whatever reason he restrained his powers. In fact, the text says that Plagueis believed the fight was a relative stalemate until he adjusted his stance, and when he began to hold the edge, he attacked Venamis viciously. Now, if the reason you thought it was a relatively effortless win for Plagueis is because the novel describes that to Venamis, it at first seemed like a brutal fight but then became to him "like a training exercise," I think that is a misinterpretation of what it says. The point conveyed there is that at first the duel was even and demanding, but then suddenly, Plagueis was the master, so to speak. He was the one gaining impromptu leverage. That is not equivalent to Plagueis handling Venamis leisurely.

Venamis charged.

To Plagueis, lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotion and needless acrobatics. Tenebrous, however, who had pronounced Plagueis a master of the art, had always enjoyed a good fight, and had clearly bequeathed that enthusiasm to his other trainee. For no sooner had the blades of their weapons clashed than Venamis began to bring the fight to him in unexpected ways, twirling his surprisingly limber body, tossing the lightsaber from hand to hand, mixing forms. At one point he leapt onto an overhanging greel branch and, when Plagueis severed it with a Force blow, hung suspended in the air—no mean feat in itself—and continued the fight, as if from high ground. Worse for Plagueis, Tenebrous had made Venamis an expert in Plagueis’s style, and so the Bith could not only anticipate but counter Plagueis’s every move. In short order, Venamis penetrated his defenses, searing the side of Plagueis’s neck.

The contest took them backward and forward through the trees, across narrow streams, and up onto piles of rocks that were the ruins of an ancient sentry post. Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of the contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest’s understory.

Realizing that the fight could go on indefinitely, he took himself out of his body and began working his material self like a marionette, no longer on the offensive, instigating attacks, but merely responding to Venamis’s lunges and strikes. Gradually the Bith understood that something had changed—that what up until then had been a fight to the death seemed suddenly like a training exercise. Exasperated, he doubled his efforts, fighting harder, more desperately, putting more power into each maneuver and blow, and in the end surrendering his precision and accuracy.

At the height of Venamis’s attack, Plagueis came back into himself with such fury that his lightsaber became a blinding rod. A two-handed upward swing launched from between his legs caught Venamis off guard. The blade didn’t go deep enough to puncture the Bith’s lung but scorched him from chest to chin. As his large, cleft head snapped backward in retreat, Plagueis brought his lightsaber straight down, tearing Venamis’s weapon from his gloved hand and nearly taking off his long fingers, as well.

With a gesture of his other hand, Venamis called for his lightsaber, but Plagueis was a split second quicker, and the hilt shot into his own right hand. Sensing a storm of Force lightning building in the Bith, he crossed the two crimson blades in front of him and said: “Yield!”

Venamis froze, allowing the nascent storm to die away, and dropped to his knees in surrender as Sojourn’s risen primary blazed at his back through the trees.

“I submit, Darth Plagueis. I accept that I must apprentice myself to you.”

Plagueis deactivated Venamis’s blade and hooked it to his belt. “You presume too much, Venamis. Around you I would always have to watch my back.”

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

@jameskm716 said:

How fast can Maul see at the time Sidious was moving faster?

I have a fairly comprehensive list of speed feats for Maul here. Maul could perceive time in slow motion enough to "move between moments"; see invisibly fast movements in slow motion; process the outcome of a battle before nearby Tusken Raiders could reach him; deflect fire from dozens of droids; etc. Maul's combat speed showings are also of similarly high caliber. TPM Maul is at least as fast as Mace Windu, Agen Kolar, or Saesee Tiin, all of whom RotS Sidious was invisibly fast to. While I think there is an argument to be made about whether or not Maul is quite as fast as Anakin, Anakin definitely does not far outstrip him either.

#28 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24111 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah man come on I posted a reply and my internet went out)= I'm going to reply tommorrow.

#29 Edited by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467

Sidious returned Vader from near death in Revenge of the Sith and was discussed further in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. It appears to have been done through healing techniques and Midi-chlorian Manipulation, though this was never outright stated. However, in Plagueis, Palpatine claimed he could return Plagueis from death as he killed him, but whether he was telling the truth or not is subject to interpretation. However, given that he could later, we can surmise that he either couldn't return beings from death yet and simply learned the ability to later, or he could return beings from death already.

As for healing himself, how is that feasible? A lightsaber wound is considerably more difficult to dress than a standard blade wound, and while Plagueis' healing and pain tolerance showings are impressive, I fail to see how healing powers would play much factor in this fight.

Ah, my apologies. I don't think it's a major factor, but one worth noting, then again considering that Palpatine knows most of the abilities anyway, perhaps not.

It was his TK, a Force Wave in particular as you said, that disintegrated targets.

I disagree with this interpretation; nothing in the text implies it was an easy victory for Plagueis or that for whatever reason he restrained his powers. In fact, the text says that Plagueis believed the fight was a relative stalemate until he adjusted his stance, and when he began to hold the edge, he attacked Venamis viciously. Now, if the reason you thought it was a relatively effortless win for Plagueis is because the novel describes that to Venamis, it at first seemed like a brutal fight but then became to him "like a training exercise," I think that is a misinterpretation of what it says. The point conveyed there is that at first the duel was even and demanding, but then suddenly, Plagueis was the master, so to speak. He was the one gaining impromptu leverage. That is not equivalent to Plagueis handling Venamis leisurely.

It's entirely agreeable to disagree with the interpretation, and because you graciously posted the entire duel, I'll point out each line which I think benefits my interpretation.

Venamis Charged.

To Plagueis, lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotion and needless acrobatics. Tenebrous, however, who had pronounced Plagueis a master of the art, had always enjoyed a good fight, and had clearly bequeathed that enthusiasm to his other trainee. For no sooner had the blades of their weapons clashed than Venamis began to bring the fight to him in unexpected ways, twirling his surprisingly limber body, tossing the lightsaber from hand to hand, mixing forms.

In Plagueis monologue, he doesn't focus on the duel at hand particularly. He reflects on Tenebrous, and how Tenebrous trained him. Then considers how Tenebrous affected Venamis. He expresses no amounts of worry or fear at the potential of losing the duel. He makes no build up of power in his monologue.

At one point he leapt onto an overhanging greel branch and, when Plagueis severed it with a Force blow, hung suspended in the air—no mean feat in itself—and continued the fight, as if from high ground. Worse for Plagueis, Tenebrous had made Venamis an expert in Plagueis’s style, and so the Bith could not only anticipate but counter Plagueis’s every move. In short order, Venamis penetrated his defenses, searing the side of Plagueis’s neck.

The duel continues, and Plagueis is analyzing what Venamis knows and how Venamis reacts. He's continually focused on how to win teh duel, but expresses no worry, fear, or signs that he thinks he could lose the duel.

The contest took them backward and forward through the trees, across narrow streams, and up onto piles of rocks that were the ruins of an ancient sentry post. Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of the contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest’s understory.

Next up, Plagueis thinks on where the duel has gone. And, in particular, takes a moment to consider if anyone is watching. Now a moment may not seem like much, but in a Lightsaber duel it can amount to a win or loss.

Realizing that the fight could go on indefinitely, he took himself out of his body and began working his material self like a marionette, no longer on the offensive, instigating attacks, but merely responding to Venamis’s lunges and strikes. Gradually the Bith understood that something had changed—that what up until then had been a fight to the death seemed suddenly like a training exercise. Exasperated, he doubled his efforts, fighting harder, more desperately, putting more power into each maneuver and blow, and in the end surrendering his precision and accuracy.

Now we reach your point, that he realizes the fight could go on indefinitely. At this point, Plagueis decides the duel should end and begins working towards that end. While Venamis had thought Plagueis was in a fight to the death, Plagueis never makes that thought.

At the height of Venamis’s attack, Plagueis came back into himself with such fury that his lightsaber became a blinding rod. A two-handed upward swing launched from between his legs caught Venamis off guard. The blade didn’t go deep enough to puncture the Bith’s lung but scorched him from chest to chin. As his large, cleft head snapped backward in retreat, Plagueis brought his lightsaber straight down, tearing Venamis’s weapon from his gloved hand and nearly taking off his long fingers, as well.

Then, Plagueis returns to his body and annihilates Venamis. It's all a quick trick. Plagueis isn't trying against Venamis, and eventually decides to end the duel, which he does effectively and quickly. Venamis, for all his efforts is trying hard, but he cannot win because Plagueis is better. Plagueis got burned when he underestimates Venamis, beyond that it seems like he's playing with him.

(--Taken from Darth Plagueis)

I have a fairly comprehensive list of speed feats for Maul here. Maul could perceive time in slow motion enough to "move between moments"; see invisibly fast movements in slow motion; process the outcome of a battle before nearby Tusken Raiders could reach him; deflect fire from dozens of droids; etc. Maul's combat speed showings are also of similarly high caliber. TPM Maul is at least as fast as Mace Windu, Agen Kolar, or Saesee Tiin, all of whom RotS Sidious was invisibly fast to. While I think there is an argument to be made about whether or not Maul is quite as fast as Anakin, Anakin definitely does not far outstrip him either.

I checked out that speed feat list and wow. Those are good feats. Question, at this point which round are you defending for Sidious? Round 1 or 2?

If it's round 2 you're referring to Maul's duel with Sidious on Mandalore?

But if it's Round 1... then when did they duel where Maul was at that skill level?

#30 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (24111 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: said

Just to clarify a bit, what feats do you think Plagueis accomplished that TPM Sidious either hasn't or couldn't?

I don't recall Palpatine having TK feats as great as Plagueis at this point in time,Plaguies has been able to support falling debre from a cave and collapse it on Darth Tenebrous so fast he was unable to comprehend it,He has also been able to make a mount at least over 10 meters high by stacking giant rocks,use Force wave to Atomize a being,etc those TK feats are more impressive then any of Palpatine's from this time that I know of. I'm still pondering on the speed aspect,Plagueis best speed feats are while fighting Venamis they would have looked like "Lighting striking" basically outpacing rain,fighting a army of Kursid warriors (Palpatine has done the same) Moving to fast for 11-4D to see properly,deflecting volleys of blaster bolts, and moving in blurs. Palpatine's greatest speed feat is fighting faster then Maul can see, now is this better then what Plagueis has done? Probably but I'm not to sure. as for Force Lighting I want to say Plagueis,but I really do not remember many force Lighting feats for Palpatine at this time,Plagueis has been able to turn someone into dust IIRC, and also killed an Iktotchi dark side prophetess with Sith lighting. Plagueis mastered Midi-chlorian manipulation at this point (I know it's not very useful in a but I just thought I would throw it out there). I think he has the better Force Telepathy showing as well. Overall I would give this round to Plagueis because of better showings.

@silver2467:said

I don't really think it can be argued that Sidious is more powerful with the Force than Plagueis by RotS. Sources have told us objectively that Sidious by RotS was the single most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived; that includes Plagueis. Now, whether you believe his preponderant power over Plagueis would become relevant in a fight though, that's another matter.

Yeah your right,after going through Palpatine's feats I do not think he even has Perponderant power over Palpatine (although I do think Plagueis could still have the TK advantage)

@silver2467:said

Could you elaborate in further detail on these?

Round 3:

I think Palatine's power grew after ROTS,he knew how to call upon Force Storms during that time (although he did not know how to control them fully) he also shown Force drain,I do not recall him using they ability during ROTS time. I think his showing point to him growing overall in the Force after ROST and as @jedixman pointed out I do not think his saber skills diminished much.

Round 4

Palptine's power grew even more and he is at the height of his power. He now has full control over Force Storms and he mastered the Essence transfer. He has Plagueis beat in every category,the only one I would argue for is Midi-chlorian manipulation and that is pretty much useless in a duel.

#31 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@jameskm716 said:

It's entirely agreeable to disagree with the interpretation, and because you graciously posted the entire duel, I'll point out each line which I think benefits my interpretation.

In Plagueis monologue, he doesn't focus on the duel at hand particularly. He reflects on Tenebrous, and how Tenebrous trained him. Then considers how Tenebrous affected Venamis. He expresses no amounts of worry or fear at the potential of losing the duel. He makes no build up of power in his monologue.

The duel continues, and Plagueis is analyzing what Venamis knows and how Venamis reacts. He's continually focused on how to win teh duel, but expresses no worry, fear, or signs that he thinks he could lose the duel.

Next up, Plagueis thinks on where the duel has gone. And, in particular, takes a moment to consider if anyone is watching. Now a moment may not seem like much, but in a Lightsaber duel it can amount to a win or loss.

Now we reach your point, that he realizes the fight could go on indefinitely. At this point, Plagueis decides the duel should end and begins working towards that end. While Venamis had thought Plagueis was in a fight to the death, Plagueis never makes that thought.

Then, Plagueis returns to his body and annihilates Venamis. It's all a quick trick. Plagueis isn't trying against Venamis, and eventually decides to end the duel, which he does effectively and quickly. Venamis, for all his efforts is trying hard, but he cannot win because Plagueis is better. Plagueis got burned when he underestimates Venamis, beyond that it seems like he's playing with him.

I respect your opinion, James, but with that respect intact, I think this is a very weak reading of their duel.

Plagueis' thoughts about Tenebrous are directly related to his focus on Venamis. He recognizes Tenebrous' hand in Venamis' technique and mentality about combat; the only reason the description expressed Plagueis' thoughts on lightsaber duels first was to contrast that with Venamis', whom Plagueis is appraising as a duelist. It was definitely not tangential, and it was definitely not denotive of a lack of care or attention to the duel. In fact, it had everything to do with the duel.

So? Plagueis being confident in himself is not tantamount to him casually handling Venamis, especially when the duel itself plays out differently. Plagueis feeling apprehensive about the duel's victor would be more symptomatic that he was on the losing end, not that he was fighting a close, because in a close fight, there is still a solid chance for victory or at least, in Plagueis' estimation, a stalemate. However, I never said Plagueis was on the losing end; I said their fight was close and hard fought. During an even encounter, one party or another doesn't have to feel concerned about their chances for it to be a good fight.

Honestly, this point is just reaching. You're attributing far too much perceived distraction to an offhand thought, which, for the record, are almost ubiquitously common in lightsaber duels and yet are not necessarily representative of the result. Plagueis remaining conscious of his surroundings is not the same as him being nonchalant about the whole ordeal.

Plagueis thinks the fight at its present course is uniform enough that it could persist indefinitely; I fail to see how that is anything other than a concession of near equality. Venamis' reaction is a reading of Plagueis' maneuvers; initially, Plagueis fought more offensively but desisted that tactic when it failed so he could trip up Venamis by leading him to fight clumsier.

I am at a loss as to how you arrived at that conclusion. Plagueis is obviously striving to win if he begins barraging Venamis "fur[iously]". If his victory was easy, why the sudden fervor? Why not just approach Venamis as indifferently as you portend? For the record, Plagueis' lightsaber swinging in such motion that it was a "blinding rod" itself attests to Plagueis striking repeatedly as well; so his last assault was not some instantaneous, singular move. Not to say it was incredibly protracted either, just a series of strokes.

Is Plagueis' duel with Venamis the closest duel we have seen in Star Wars? No. Did it likely expend all of Plagueis' skill to win? Probably not. Does that make it an easy victory? No. The novel seems to show that it was anything but easy if Plagueis had to adapt his style of combat in order to undermine his foe's control and then attack ferociously to win. Like many other duels in Star Wars, maybe it wasn't the most exhausting duel there is, but it was a good fight.

@jameskm716 said:

I checked out that speed feat list and wow. Those are good feats. Question, at this point which round are you defending for Sidious? Round 1 or 2?

If it's round 2 you're referring to Maul's duel with Sidious on Mandalore?

But if it's Round 1... then when did they duel where Maul was at that skill level?

I'm not defending Sidious on either; I have yet to post an opinion.

Sure?

Sidious never dueled Maul where Maul was at that skill level, but shortly before the Battle of Naboo, Sidious did Force pull Maul's lightsaber to himself and teach Maul a lesson about focus by brandishing Maul's lightsaber, tracing the outline of Maul's body, faster than Maul could see. TPM Maul was at his peak when Sidious did that, and the Maul that Sidious fought just a few years earlier on Hypori where he also ran faster than Maul could see was not too far behind either.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

I don't recall Palpatine having TK feats as great as Plagueis at this point in time,Plaguies has been able to support falling debre from a cave and collapse it on Darth Tenebrous so fast he was unable to comprehend it,He has also been able to make a mount at least over 10 meters high by stacking giant rocks,use Force wave to Atomize a being,etc those TK feats are more impressive then any of Palpatine's from this time that I know of. I'm still pondering on the speed aspect,Plagueis best speed feats are while fighting Venamis they would have looked like "Lighting striking" basically outpacing rain,fighting a army of Kursid warriors (Palpatine has done the same) Moving to fast for 11-4D to see properly,deflecting volleys of blaster bolts, and moving in blurs. Palpatine's greatest speed feat is fighting faster then Maul can see, now is this better then what Plagueis has done? Probably but I'm not to sure. as for Force Lighting I want to say Plagueis,but I really do not remember many force Lighting feats for Palpatine at this time,Plagueis has been able to turn someone into dust IIRC, and also killed an Iktotchi dark side prophetess with Sith lighting. Plagueis mastered Midi-chlorian manipulation at this point (I know it's not very useful in a but I just thought I would throw it out there). I think he has the better Force Telepathy showing as well. Overall I would give this round to Plagueis because of better showings.

Regarding TK, I would probably agree with that both on the basis of objective feats and on the basis of contrast. In feats, Plagueis' TK are, by and large, superior; so he would supersede Palpatine in that. But there is also another way to look at this. In the middle of his apprenticeship, over a decade before TPM, Sidious mused that he could easily collapse a building with the Force, a thought which I don't entirely disregard (and I explained why in my debate with James on Sidious vs Ventress, Grievous, and Durge, if you want a grasp of my reasons). However, even if Palpatine can easily topple buildings by that point, which as I said I find plausible, consider this: Sidious at this time readily accepts Plagueis' supremacy in Force power and mastery, which suggests Plagueis could as well. Not only that, but Plagueis' TK feats in general advance the suggestion that he could destroy a building, like as you listed supporting a colossal cave collapse, moving the rubble from the aforementioned cave ceiling, breaching a ship's viewport, atomizing people while injured, and shaking the floor of a room while injured, among other things. There is a reasonable inference, I think, to be made there that Plagueis could destroy a building anyway, Sidious' thoughts on his own telekinetic powers notwithstanding. So if Sidious by this time can accomplish such a feat, I think Plagueis could too, but if you label Sidious' impression on his own powers as just hyperbole, then Plagueis still has better TK by known showings.

Plagueis has never reduced anyone or anything to ash with Lightning before, and by this point, neither has Palpatine.

As for TP, Plagueis' showings are both few and far between and not as impressive as Palpatine's. Sidious by TPM has casually probed Maul's thoughts, implanted dreams/thoughts into Maul's mind, sensed thoughts/emotions across the galaxy, prevented Plagueis from reading his mind before even receiving training, and for that matter, if Palpatine is to be trusted on this, Sidious may have been affecting Plagueis' mind for a long time. With that said, I doubt TP would make much difference, at least not in Round 1.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Yeah your right,after going through Palpatine's feats I do not think he even has Perponderant power over Palpatine (although I do think Plagueis could still have the TK advantage)

You raise an intriguing point about comparative TK, because Palpatine's TK feats tend to be very reserved throughout his career, and when I say "reserved," I don't mean in the sense that his TK feats are unimpressive but in the sense that he rarely just destroys an area needlessly and instead targets an enemy with his TK. Sidious' TK reminds me more of Dooku's telekinetic showings in that they tend to be very effective against other powerful characters but are not often as bombastic in environmental displays as, say, Vader's are. Characters like Vader and Plagueis have a propensity for causing monumental damage to their surroundings, while Vader has fewer showings of directly telekinetically influencing other characters and Plagueis has few to none. On the other hand, where Tyranus and Sidious lack more pronounced examples of raw destructive power, their powers usually serve them very well against others. Where Plagueis' TK can control a towering cave structure, Sidious' TK can Choke Maul to near unconsciousness. Where Plagueis' TK can atomize people with an outburst, Sidious' TK can seemingly kill a dozen Weequay soldiers with such subtlety that there are no obvious wounds. Where Plagueis' TK can break through a ship's viewport, Sidious' TK can incapacitate Darth Maul and Savage Opress simultaneously. Where Plagueis' TK can send a tremor through a floor to knock people down, Sidious' TK can crush (an untrained) Sedriss to near death.

This is not to say Plagueis' lacks precision with his TK; Plagueis manipulated microscopic nanosyringes with the Force. Plagueis also once Choked an unsuspecting Sidious, but that was also more than a decade before TPM (not that that eliminates the value of the showing, just gives it context). This is also not to say that Palpatine hasn't or doesn't just outright demolish anything telekinetically either. He has effortlessly moved and smashed two boulders; with a wave of his hand tossed TD-D9 across a room with enough force to dismantle parts of it; pulled down a ceiling; contorted bulkheads; easily thrown around several delegation pods while simultaneously flying on one himself; etc. As I alluded to earlier, there are also two different examples, once from Sidious as an apprentice and once from the Emperor after A New Hope, where Palpatine considers crushing a building out of sheer animosity, but you can take those as you will. The point is, who has the better TK feats between Plagueis and Sidious might depend on what your criteria for judging their feats is; for instance, which do you find more considerable: humiliating Maul and Savage telekinetically or lifting cave rubble? To be honest, if we're rating feats purely on destructive power, Vader's telekinetic showings are far and away better than Palpatine's are, yet people, here at least, generally appear to esteem Palpatine as greatly more telekinetically powerful than Vader (a consensus which I personally don't altogether accede to, but that's a different matter). But then, is destructive power all that matters? I will leave that up to you. If nothing else, it certainly does make for a thoughtful discussion point, and I don't really see many incontrovertibly right or wrong answers to the issue either.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Round 3:

I think Palatine's power grew after ROTS,he knew how to call upon Force Storms during that time (although he did not know how to control them fully) he also shown Force drain,I do not recall him using they ability during ROTS time. I think his showing point to him growing overall in the Force after ROST and as @jedixman pointed out I do not think his saber skills diminished much.

Round 4

Palptine's power grew even more and he is at the height of his power. He now has full control over Force Storms and he mastered the Essence transfer. He has Plagueis beat in every category,the only one I would argue for is Midi-chlorian manipulation and that is pretty much useless in a duel.

Thanks for clarifying.

#32 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

If no one else has anything to add (DC? James? JXM?), I will post my own thoughts on this soon.

#33 Posted by ShootingNova (16247 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467:

Good to see you back, Silver.

I dunno, I haven't posted on anything (especially battles) in ages.

I can see Plagueis beating TPM and possibly RotS, but anything after that shouldn't be much of a win.

I think I might want to read Darth Plagueis again.

#34 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Alright.

I suppose I will post my own analysis now. JXM, James, DC, since I nitpicked your opinions so much, here is your opportunity to do the same to mine. Your semantics are expected.

Round 1

I'll just deconstruct this categorically.

Physicality is a bit nebulous in some areas, specifically in strength and durability. Plagueis and Sidious have both endured numerous slash wounds, frigid temperatures, and high falls without much injury. Whatever discrepancy that might exist between Sidious and Plagueis pertaining to durability is probably too negligible to matter. In strength and striking power, Plagueis has kicked an enemy across a cabin, smashed people's skulls, and struck straight through Maladians' armored torsos. Sidious has pulled a guard through a partly opened door and then hurled him across a cabin; smashed people's skulls; and torn people's limbs off, and all of that was accomplished before he was trained in the Force. Once again, there is little incongruity between them there either. Stamina should also be about the same, as both have endured for weeks without rest or sustenance and have fought for hours on end. Now, combat speed might reveal some inequality. Plagueis' best illustration of raw speed, in my opinion, is his duel with Venamis wherein he and Venamis fight fast enough through a forest that the blurring motions of their lightsabers would be perceived to onlookers as jagged lightning bolts. One very common description of speed in EU stories is the thickening of lightsaber blurring trails covering larger areas, despite the blade of a lightsaber being fairly thin, but not many characters have produced so much simultaneous hazing with their blades as to leave that much residual light across as vast a space as Plagueis did. Most characters just surround themselves in "nets" or "walls" or "shields" or the like. Clearly, Plagueis is incredibly fast. Sidious, however, has fought faster than an also incredibly fast Darth Maul could even see, which, to me, is the superior speed feat. The deviation in speed is not gaping enough to drastically alter the outcome, but I would be remiss to discount it altogether either.

Combat skill is tough to favor in one over the other. Both are highly knowledgeable in technique and weaponry. Plagueis could recognize a number of lightsaber forms; fought a Kursid army alongside Sidious with both of them wielding force pikes; and taught Sidious to familiarize himself with countless forms of blaster weapons. Sidious taught Maul Juyo, which requires at least basic knowledge of the fundamentals of all lightsaber forms; showed Maul how to operate ancient weapons; and also instructed Maul in the practice of esoteric martial arts disciplines. Technical knowledge seems parallel between the two; application, as I said, is tough to say.

Plagueis' duel with Venamis advertised a respectable degree of skill, but then, so did Sidious' duel with Maul. Both duels were mired in some contextual factors. Venamis was trained in the lightsaber forms that Plagueis utilized and so could adequately respond to Plagueis' standard technique; Plagueis had to alter his style to overcome Venamis. Maul was wounded and tired when Sidious first challenged him on Hypori, but Maul's fatigue and pain waned when he subsumed himself with his own hatred for and drive to defeat his Master. Sidious, however, hardly fought back against Maul and simply allowed Maul to vent his frustration until he exhausted himself, at which point Sidious disarmed him. Sidious also fought with a training lightsaber and moved slowly enough that Maul could see him, despite proving in that same encounter that he could move faster than Maul could follow. Both Venamis and Maul were both highly skilled, but their own individual feats by that time are limited. We have never seen Venamis in another duel, and although Maul does have skill showings by that point, his best combat feats occurred later. So which is more impressive? Beating Venamis, who was fast enough to weave his lightsaber in trails that resembled lightning bolts, skilled enough to mirror all of Plagueis' techniques, and powerful enough to fly mid-duel, or beating Maul, who was fast enough to easily deflect and evade numerous blaster bolts; skilled enough to outfight a number of fighting masters; and powerful enough to, along with Sidious, charge the air around them with Force energies as they fought, while holding back profusely and wielding a training saber? I personally don't see a whole lot of difference.

An overall power comparison between the two is another interesting element. TK is probably in Plagueis' favor, to a small extent, but I doubt that would bear itself out much in the course of a fight. Same with Lightning. Midi-chlorian Manipulation, again, is Plagueis' area of expertise, but that shouldn't matter at all in a fight, really. TP is in Palpatine's favor, as I explicated earlier, but I similarly question the prospect of that becoming an issue either. Plagueis possesses some other powers that Sidious has no displayed affinity for, most of which would never see a combat use, like Scream, Barrier, Absorption, and the inscrutable ability to influence machinery. Plagueis and Sidious both have evinced Deflection, but Plagueis' feats with it are more noteworthy. On the other hand, Sidious also possesses some powers Plagueis has never revealed, which also probably have no combative purpose, like Beast Control, Detoxify Poison, the ability to remotely heat objects, control flames, and so on. Also of note is the fact that Plagueis, like Tenebrous before him, had an admitted deficiency in the field of Sith sorcery; whereas, Sidious studied Sith sorcery, to results that at this time are mostly unexplored, and seemed to have knowledge of Sith alchemy as well.

As I said, the plausibility of these powers to enter into the equation is minimal. The only reason I bring these up at all is more for a general comparison of powers than anything. The best feat accomplished by either Plagueis or Sidious at this time was performing meditative rituals to manipulate midi-chlorians and imbalance the Force, and this feat was achieved with the efforts of both together. So while their dual feat does verify vast powers on the parts of both, it does little for comparing one against the other. Individually, I would probably give a solid edge to Plagueis in terms of sheer power. Plagueis by that point does embody the dark side, and SIdious' powers were augmented once the dark side channeled singularly into Sidious and christened him in place of Plagueis. As it stands, there are areas with the Force where Plagueis is superior and areas where Sidious is superior. However, many of the proclivities one has over the other would be inconsequential during combat. The ones that would matter include physical power, to which Sidious appears to be moderately greater in speed; TK, to which Plagueis appears to be moderately greater; Lightning, which appears indistinguishable; and Force senses, which is probably also even. For combative purposes, this could also likely go either way.

I would give this to Plagueis for a slight majority or call it a tie. The two are near identical in many ways and can at least be extrapolated to be so in less comparable points, but Plagueis could edge him out in some scenarios. Plagueis should win 5-7/10.

Round 2

This, to me, leans more in Sidious' favor. Pertaining to speed, where before you could probably at least challenge the idea of Palpatine being faster, here his speed is more pronounced. On top of fighting faster than Maul can see, he has similarly done so to TCW Maul, Mace Windu, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Anakin Skywalker. Even when holding back, Maul was astounded by how quick Sidious was in their duel on Mandalore. No question Plagueis is fast, but where TPM Sidious' ranking as predominant in speed over Plagueis is more debatable, this seems more evident. For strength, Sidious by this point, in addition to the strength feats he accumulated before, has repelled the strength of both Savage and Maul concurrently, Savage himself having broken chains and the like before. Physical power more arches toward Palpatine by this incarnation.

Combat skill again is more pronounced on Sidious' part. At this point, he has outskilled Maul and Savage; fought an enormously amped Mace Windu to a standstill; and dueled fairly evenly with Yoda. Of course, Sidious has the benefit of more varied appearances, but combat was never Plagueis' point of focus to begin with. This time, I would say Sidious has a clear skill edge, though not enough to instantly overwhelm Plagueis.

As for power, the advantage in Lightning passes to Sidious. Palpatine's Lightning has knocked Yoda unconscious in a single blast, bent lightsaber blades, overloaded Yoda's Absorption limits, and burned a Sithspawn to ash (Plagueis himself only once reduced an enemy's spine to dust, but that was after first absorpting blaster bolts and redirecting the energy into Lightning first). TK...arguable. Palpatine has shown some dimensions of control with Telekinesis that Plagueis has not, like the ability to fly, but on the subject of meaningful feats, as I said before, I think there is a case to be made either way for who is more powerful telekinetically. With that said, based on what we have seen from both, Sidious is far more predisposed toward exploiting his TK mid-combat, as he is with his Lightning as well, and that could play to his benefit. Just to further comment on who is more powerful, Sidious by this time has so completely dominated the Force that it is not simply the dark side imbalancing the Force; it's Palpatine's own darkness overlaying the Force. His own darkness, in a unity with the dark side that Plagueis never achieved, created a morass over the Force that necessitated the Chosen One to remove. That is a more potent accomplishment than Plaguies had, though the rituals Plagueis performed with Sidious do come close since those in a sense propelled the process initially. Aside from that, Sidious has performed a sorcerous ritual that conjured weather storms, induced fear into thousands of Jedi across the galaxy, summoned Sith spirits, formed Sithspawn, and hid his true face. He has also rendered himself immovable, projected other's emotions out through himself, and has operated not only TK and Lightning in combat but Telepathy and Empathy as well. While there is definitely not a large power chasm, I do consider Sidious more powerful by this point.

For the most part, Sidious' combination of unforgiving speed, skill, and combat-usable power should grant him a hard-won majority. In my opinion, Sidious should win 8/10.

Round 3

This is a difficult one mostly because OT Palpatine has few combat showings. I mentioned the conundrum of Palpatine's failing body, but I really only presented that as a discussion point for others to think about. In my opinion, while I have no instances to show this, I doubt Palpatine weakened enough physically that he would be unable to fight. In the Betrayal arc of Empire, for instance, the Emperor was physically strong enough to withstand a point blank blaster shot, and while it did stun him, he showed little sign of pain or detriment from it shortly thereafter. The real problem is that we never see the Emperor in a straight duel, which would be better acclimated to decisively showing whether he had slowed physically over the years or not. As I said before, I recalled there being a very early source that stated the Emperor used the Force to maintain his strength into his old age, but I can't find it. The fact that it is an old source might mean it could be overwritten now anyway. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that he likely did not slow very much physically, or at least not enough to harshly change the course of a fight with Plagueis. If that is correct, Palpatine should be physically tougher than Plagueis by this point, seeing as shortly after RotS in Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison, he withstood an explosion that ripped off parts of the Imperial Palace and subsequently survived a gaseous release that literally melted people from the inside out.

However, what may have atrophied is his combative adroitness. While Palpatine would doubtless have not lost all of his mastery with a lightsaber, it is possible his skills had diminished over the years somewhat. I would still defend him as the more capable duelist but not by as much of a margin as RotS Sidious. This is of course conjecture but feasible conjecture if nothing else, in my opinion. Nonetheless, I still think Palpatine's skill should eclipse Plagueis' enough to gain a difficult upper hand.

In Force power, if there was any question about who was more powerful before, that should all have evaporated by this point. The Emperor has such feats with the Force as erasing the memories of millions of people on Coruscant; dominating the minds of billions on Byss; probing thoughts/emotions and communicating with others across the galaxy; telepathically bringing Vader to his knees from a separate planet; tearing information out of the minds of Jedi; entering Battle Meditation to influence armies and fleets; draining the life energies of billions of beings; killing dozens of stormtroopers, scorching dark side prophets to skeletons, and overpowering Luke's Force Deflection with Lightning; enveloping the entire planet Byss in a dark side aura; controlling other's spirits; mastering Essence Transfer; and beginning his research into the Force Storm, which he has appropriated to open a wormhole of minuscule enough size to fit inside the reactor shaft on the second Death Star and quickly enough to transport his spirit across space as he died. The latter ability should not affect the fight much, but it is anyone's guess about the others. Palpatine may find sufficient breathing room to employ a telepathic trick (he has utilized his TP/empathy in combat before) or take advantage of an opportunity to fire off Lightning. If all else fails, Plagueis would be ill-equipped to repulse Palpatine's spirit should Plagueis kill him. Plagueis' partial incredulity with regards to Sith Essences only lends itself to the idea that he lacks a means to combat a Sith spirit with anything other than his own will if the spirit attempted to possess him, and to that end, I do believe Palpatine possesses superior willpower, though should it come to a contest of wills, it would be close. With that said, Plagueis is more or less without a means of success here. If he kills Sidious, Sidious could still return immediately to possess him, and that assumes Plagueis could kill him.

As a whole, Palpatine should be able to handle this just about every time in a good fight. Palpatine should win 10/10.

Round 4

Sidious at his peak is a hard one to match. By this point, Palpatine has fully internalized the techniques of Force Storms, has made more headway in his alchemical experiments, mind controlled Jedi, and his lightsaber skill should hardly be questioned. He first defeated Arden Lyn through unknown means and then later defeated Luke in a one on one duel and then lost to Luke in a tough fight during their second duel when Leia and Anakin were shielding Luke by bathing the Emperor's powers in light. However, even with his powers somewhat attenuated by Leia and Anakin, Palpatine still fought faster than Leia could see and dueled well against Luke. Sidious by this time also shrugged off a piece of machinery weighing a ton being dropped on his head, and that was while he inhabited a body that neared expiration (this occurred on Byss, but I am hesitant to attribute the showing solely to that, mostly because Byss is saturated with Palpatine's own powers; if his own energies overtake the planet, is he really amping himself by using his own energies to "increase" his powers?). Once again, as a fail-safe, Palpatine does have Essence Transfer, and I am even more confident at this point that his will exceeds Plagueis'. Palpatine has escaped Chaos by sheer willpower and can tear open the fabric of space with just a willful inclination by this point (whether either of those instances of willpower correspond with his subjugation of the Force in his previous years though is more than interpretable). All things considered, this could be a pretty good fight or only require a fair amount of effort, depending on how Sidious chooses to approach his Master and which of his skills he utilizes against him. In either case, Palpatine 10/10.

And, yes, I did create a battle thread with a clear victor in mind for each round. Sue me.

#35 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24111 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Alright.

I suppose I will post my own analysis now. JXM, James, DC, since I nitpicked your opinions so much, here is your opportunity to do the same to mine. Your semantics are expected.

Round 1

I'll just deconstruct this categorically.

Physicality is a bit nebulous in some areas, specifically in strength and durability. Plagueis and Sidious have both endured numerous slash wounds, frigid temperatures, and high falls without much injury. Whatever discrepancy that might exist between Sidious and Plagueis pertaining to durability is probably too negligible to matter. In strength and striking power, Plagueis has kicked an enemy across a cabin, smashed people's skulls, and struck straight through Maladians' armored torsos. Sidious has pulled a guard through a partly opened door and then hurled him across a cabin; smashed people's skulls; and torn people's limbs off, and all of that was accomplished before he was trained in the Force. Once again, there is little incongruity between them there either. Stamina should also be about the same, as both have endured for weeks without rest or sustenance and have fought for hours on end. Now, combat speed might reveal some inequality. Plagueis' best illustration of raw speed, in my opinion, is his duel with Venamis wherein he and Venamis fight fast enough through a forest that the blurring motions of their lightsabers would be perceived to onlookers as jagged lightning bolts. One very common description of speed in EU stories is the thickening of lightsaber blurring trails covering larger areas, despite the blade of a lightsaber being fairly thin, but not many characters have produced so much simultaneous hazing with their blades as to leave that much residual light across as vast a space as Plagueis did. Most characters just surround themselves in "nets" or "walls" or "shields" or the like. Clearly, Plagueis is incredibly fast. Sidious, however, has fought faster than an also incredibly fast Darth Maul could even see, which, to me, is the superior speed feat. The deviation in speed is not gaping enough to drastically alter the outcome, but I would be remiss to discount it altogether either.

Combat skill is tough to favor in one over the other. Both are highly knowledgeable in technique and weaponry. Plagueis could recognize a number of lightsaber forms; fought a Kursid army alongside Sidious with both of them wielding force pikes; and taught Sidious to familiarize himself with countless forms of blaster weapons. Sidious taught Maul Juyo, which requires at least basic knowledge of the fundamentals of all lightsaber forms; showed Maul how to operate ancient weapons; and also instructed Maul in the practice of esoteric martial arts disciplines. Technical knowledge seems parallel between the two; application, as I said, is tough to say.

Plagueis' duel with Venamis advertised a respectable degree of skill, but then, so did Sidious' duel with Maul. Both duels were mired in some contextual factors. Venamis was trained in the lightsaber forms that Plagueis utilized and so could adequately respond to Plagueis' standard technique; Plagueis had to alter his style to overcome Venamis. Maul was wounded and tired when Sidious first challenged him on Hypori, but Maul's fatigue and pain waned when he subsumed himself with his own hatred for and drive to defeat his Master. Sidious, however, hardly fought back against Maul and simply allowed Maul to vent his frustration until he exhausted himself, at which point Sidious disarmed him. Sidious also fought with a training lightsaber and moved slowly enough that Maul could see him, despite proving in that same encounter that he could move faster than Maul could follow. Both Venamis and Maul were both highly skilled, but their own individual feats by that time are limited. We have never seen Venamis in another duel, and although Maul does have skill showings by that point, his best combat feats occurred later. So which is more impressive? Beating Venamis, who was fast enough to weave his lightsaber in trails that resembled lightning bolts, skilled enough to mirror all of Plagueis' techniques, and powerful enough to fly mid-duel, or beating Maul, who was fast enough to easily deflect and evade numerous blaster bolts; skilled enough to outfight a number of fighting masters; and powerful enough to, along with Sidious, charge the air around them with Force energies as they fought, while holding back profusely and wielding a training saber? I personally don't see a whole lot of difference.

An overall power comparison between the two is another interesting element. TK is probably in Plagueis' favor, to a small extent, but I doubt that would bear itself out much in the course of a fight. Same with Lightning. Midi-chlorian Manipulation, again, is Plagueis' area of expertise, but that shouldn't matter at all in a fight, really. TP is in Palpatine's favor, as I explicated earlier, but I similarly question the prospect of that becoming an issue either. Plagueis possesses some other powers that Sidious has no displayed affinity for, most of which would never see a combat use, like Scream, Barrier, Absorption, and the inscrutable ability to influence machinery. Plagueis and Sidious both have evinced Deflection, but Plagueis' feats with it are more noteworthy. On the other hand, Sidious also possesses some powers Plagueis has never revealed, which also probably have no combative purpose, like Beast Control, Detoxify Poison, the ability to remotely heat objects, control flames, and so on. Also of note is the fact that Plagueis, like Tenebrous before him, had an admitted deficiency in the field of Sith sorcery; whereas, Sidious studied Sith sorcery, to results that at this time are mostly unexplored, and seemed to have knowledge of Sith alchemy as well.

As I said, the plausibility of these powers to enter into the equation is minimal. The only reason I bring these up at all is more for a general comparison of powers than anything. The best feat accomplished by either Plagueis or Sidious at this time was performing meditative rituals to manipulate midi-chlorians and imbalance the Force, and this feat was achieved with the efforts of both together. So while their dual feat does verify vast powers on the parts of both, it does little for comparing one against the other. Individually, I would probably give a solid edge to Plagueis in terms of sheer power. Plagueis by that point does embody the dark side, and SIdious' powers were augmented once the dark side channeled singularly into Sidious and christened him in place of Plagueis. As it stands, there are areas with the Force where Plagueis is superior and areas where Sidious is superior. However, many of the proclivities one has over the other would be inconsequential during combat. The ones that would matter include physical power, to which Sidious appears to be moderately greater in speed; TK, to which Plagueis appears to be moderately greater; Lightning, which appears indistinguishable; and Force senses, which is probably also even. For combative purposes, this could also likely go either way.

I would give this to Plagueis for a slight majority or call it a tie. The two are near identical in many ways and can at least be extrapolated to be so in less comparable points, but Plagueis could edge him out in some scenarios. Plagueis should win 5-7/10.

Round 2

This, to me, leans more in Sidious' favor. Pertaining to speed, where before you could probably at least challenge the idea of Palpatine being faster, here his speed is more pronounced. On top of fighting faster than Maul can see, he has similarly done so to TCW Maul, Mace Windu, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Anakin Skywalker. Even when holding back, Maul was astounded by how quick Sidious was in their duel on Mandalore. No question Plagueis is fast, but where TPM Sidious' ranking as predominant in speed over Plagueis is more debatable, this seems more evident. For strength, Sidious by this point, in addition to the strength feats he accumulated before, has repelled the strength of both Savage and Maul concurrently, Savage himself having broken chains and the like before. Physical power more arches toward Palpatine by this incarnation.

Combat skill again is more pronounced on Sidious' part. At this point, he has outskilled Maul and Savage; fought an enormously amped Mace Windu to a standstill; and dueled fairly evenly with Yoda. Of course, Sidious has the benefit of more varied appearances, but combat was never Plagueis' point of focus to begin with. This time, I would say Sidious has a clear skill edge, though not enough to instantly overwhelm Plagueis.

As for power, the advantage in Lightning passes to Sidious. Palpatine's Lightning has knocked Yoda unconscious in a single blast, bent lightsaber blades, overloaded Yoda's Absorption limits, and burned a Sithspawn to ash (Plagueis himself only once reduced an enemy's spine to dust, but that was after first absorpting blaster bolts and redirecting the energy into Lightning first). TK...arguable. Palpatine has shown some dimensions of control with Telekinesis that Plagueis has not, like the ability to fly, but on the subject of meaningful feats, as I said before, I think there is a case to be made either way for who is more powerful telekinetically. With that said, based on what we have seen from both, Sidious is far more predisposed toward exploiting his TK mid-combat, as he is with his Lightning as well, and that could play to his benefit. Just to further comment on who is more powerful, Sidious by this time has so completely dominated the Force that it is not simply the dark side imbalancing the Force; it's Palpatine's own darkness overlaying the Force. His own darkness, in a unity with the dark side that Plagueis never achieved, created a morass over the Force that necessitated the Chosen One to remove. That is a more potent accomplishment than Plaguies had, though the rituals Plagueis performed with Sidious do come close since those in a sense propelled the process initially. Aside from that, Sidious has performed a sorcerous ritual that conjured weather storms, induced fear into thousands of Jedi across the galaxy, summoned Sith spirits, formed Sithspawn, and hid his true face. He has also rendered himself immovable, projected other's emotions out through himself, and has operated not only TK and Lightning in combat but Telepathy and Empathy as well. While there is definitely not a large power chasm, I do consider Sidious more powerful by this point.

For the most part, Sidious' combination of unforgiving speed, skill, and combat-usable power should grant him a hard-won majority. In my opinion, Sidious should win 8/10.

Round 3

This is a difficult one mostly because OT Palpatine has few combat showings. I mentioned the conundrum of Palpatine's failing body, but I really only presented that as a discussion point for others to think about. In my opinion, while I have no instances to show this, I doubt Palpatine weakened enough physically that he would be unable to fight. In the Betrayal arc of Empire, for instance, the Emperor was physically strong enough to withstand a point blank blaster shot, and while it did stun him, he showed little sign of pain or detriment from it shortly thereafter. The real problem is that we never see the Emperor in a straight duel, which would be better acclimated to decisively showing whether he had slowed physically over the years or not. As I said before, I recalled there being a very early source that stated the Emperor used the Force to maintain his strength into his old age, but I can't find it. The fact that it is an old source might mean it could be overwritten now anyway. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that he likely did not slow very much physically, or at least not enough to harshly change the course of a fight with Plagueis. If that is correct, Palpatine should be physically tougher than Plagueis by this point, seeing as shortly after RotS in Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison, he withstood an explosion that ripped off parts of the Imperial Palace and subsequently survived a gaseous release that literally melted people from the inside out.

However, what may have atrophied is his combative adroitness. While Palpatine would doubtless have not lost all of his mastery with a lightsaber, it is possible his skills had diminished over the years somewhat. I would still defend him as the more capable duelist but not by as much of a margin as RotS Sidious. This is of course conjecture but feasible conjecture if nothing else, in my opinion. Nonetheless, I still think Palpatine's skill should eclipse Plagueis' enough to gain a difficult upper hand.

In Force power, if there was any question about who was more powerful before, that should all have evaporated by this point. The Emperor has such feats with the Force as erasing the memories of millions of people on Coruscant; dominating the minds of billions on Byss; probing thoughts/emotions and communicating with others across the galaxy; telepathically bringing Vader to his knees from a separate planet; tearing information out of the minds of Jedi; entering Battle Meditation to influence armies and fleets; draining the life energies of billions of beings; killing dozens of stormtroopers, scorching dark side prophets to skeletons, and overpowering Luke's Force Deflection with Lightning; enveloping the entire planet Byss in a dark side aura; controlling other's spirits; mastering Essence Transfer; and beginning his research into the Force Storm, which he has appropriated to open a wormhole of minuscule enough size to fit inside the reactor shaft on the second Death Star and quickly enough to transport his spirit across space as he died. The latter ability should not affect the fight much, but it is anyone's guess about the others. Palpatine may find sufficient breathing room to employ a telepathic trick (he has utilized his TP/empathy in combat before) or take advantage of an opportunity to fire off Lightning. If all else fails, Plagueis would be ill-equipped to repulse Palpatine's spirit should Plagueis kill him. Plagueis' partial incredulity with regards to Sith Essences only lends itself to the idea that he lacks a means to combat a Sith spirit with anything other than his own will if the spirit attempted to possess him, and to that end, I do believe Palpatine possesses superior willpower, though should it come to a contest of wills, it would be close. With that said, Plagueis is more or less without a means of success here. If he kills Sidious, Sidious could still return immediately to possess him, and that assumes Plagueis could kill him.

As a whole, Palpatine should be able to handle this just about every time in a good fight. Palpatine should win 10/10.

Round 4

Sidious at his peak is a hard one to match. By this point, Palpatine has fully internalized the techniques of Force Storms, has made more headway in his alchemical experiments, mind controlled Jedi, and his lightsaber skill should hardly be questioned. He first defeated Arden Lyn through unknown means and then later defeated Luke in a one on one duel and then lost to Luke in a tough fight during their second duel when Leia and Anakin were shielding Luke by bathing the Emperor's powers in light. However, even with his powers somewhat attenuated by Leia and Anakin, Palpatine still fought faster than Leia could see and dueled well against Luke. Sidious by this time also shrugged off a piece of machinery weighing a ton being dropped on his head, and that was while he inhabited a body that neared expiration (this occurred on Byss, but I am hesitant to attribute the showing solely to that, mostly because Byss is saturated with Palpatine's own powers; if his own energies overtake the planet, is he really amping himself by using his own energies to "increase" his powers?). Once again, as a fail-safe, Palpatine does have Essence Transfer, and I am even more confident at this point that his will exceeds Plagueis'. Palpatine has escaped Chaos by sheer willpower and can tear open the fabric of space with just a willful inclination by this point (whether either of those instances of willpower correspond with his subjugation of the Force in his previous years though is more than interpretable). All things considered, this could be a pretty good fight or only require a fair amount of effort, depending on how Sidious chooses to approach his Master and which of his skills he utilizes against him. In either case, Palpatine 10/10.

And, yes, I did create a battle thread with a clear victor in mind for each round. Sue me.

Nice,I'm looking for something to nitpick on but I can't find anything =(

#36 Posted by JediXMan (30321 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#37 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

I'm looking for something to nitpick on but I can't find anything =(

I can. Looking over my post again, I have a couple revisements I'd like to make, mostly because I think I just could have articulated my point better.

In Round 2, I don't think I adequately expressed how close this fight would be. I was busy listing what I believe to be advantages for Sidious, and I think I did so to the neglect of Plagueis' own formidability. While I do think Sidious should win around 8/10, those eight wins would probably be almost as challenging as Palpatine's victory over Yoda (I have mentioned before that I consider Yoda and Plagueis to be on an almost equal tier with a slight leaning to Yoda). It would be a brutal win for Sidious, and I probably should have made that clearer.

Secondly, I said that Plagueis only ever burned someone's bones to dust after absorbing blaster bolts and channeling the blaster energy into Lightning; while this is true, I have to wonder how much the blaster bolts actually enhanced his Lightning. Not only was Plagueis decades before reaching his peak when he did that, but despite the property of blaster bolts to, under normal circumstances, instantly kill a target, I have never heard of one pulverizing flesh. Now, maybe blaster bolts do have enough energy to do that but simply don't because of the properties of their energy particles, whereas Lightning, which circulates over an enemy and weakens their life force, could have that effect. It very well could be possible that Plagueis could turn a person's bones to dust, as he did before, without first absorbing energy, but I would hardly be dogmatic about it either way.

Also, even though this was not done by RotS per se, only months after RotS, Palpatine had warped Byss into a dark side nexus and began populating it, beginning construction on it, and was already feeding on the limited populace there as shown in Evasive Action. The reason I decided against listing this showing for his benefit in Round 2 is because it happened after RotS, even though RotS Sidious should probably be capable of it already (I'm reluctant to believe Palpatine's power grew so dramatically in only a few months after RotS that he would have limited success at such a feat but then grow so rapidly as to do so shortly after). Again, whether this would even turn up in a fight is a whole other debate on its own, let alone the matter of figuring out if it should be attributable to RotS Sidious to begin with.

In Round 3, I will continue searching for sources about Palpatine's physical strength and keep all of you informed of what I find.

And as not so much a revision to my post but just as an aside, for Round 4, just out of curiosity, do you any of you think a wormhole would find its way into a duel with Plagueis? If so, what do you think would be the result?

@jedixman: Thanks.

#38 Edited by G1d3on (96 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice to see you back, @silver2467. Thought you'd vanished!

With respect to the thread topic, to what extent are stylistic differences considered?

Oh and, for the record, the recently released Clone Wars Episode Guide by Jason Fry at last confirms that Sidious is a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat.

#39 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@g1d3on said:

Nice to see you back, @silver2467. Thought you'd vanished!

With respect to the thread topic, to what extent are stylistic differences considered?

Oh and, for the record, the recently released Clone Wars Episode Guide by Jason Fry at last confirms that Sidious is a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat.

I come and go. RL obligations abound.

To whatever extent you believe they matter. You and I may not see eye to eye in gauging differences of presentation or medium; so to what extent I might consider them, you might not or vice versa. I won't presume to decide for you what importance those matters play, even if I might argue against your assessment. Just consider them as you see fit.

Interesting. Never read that one. Have you seen that quote from "Nick Gillard" that says Palpatine is ambidextrous and a master of all weapons and all that? I see people quote that quite a bit, but I never see a source for it. Not even sure the quote really exists or is just another forum myth. So it is nice to have some kind of confirmation on the depth of his knowledge one way or another.

#40 Edited by G1d3on (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467I understand. Still, good to see you haven't vanished into the ether entirely yet.

The Nick Gillard quote has been circulating for some time but I'm not sure if it's legitimate. By the way, I checked and found evidence of Lucas's 80% Vader quote. And I read on a recent thread from the SWTOR forum that status as the most powerful Sith in history may again have been conferred to Sidious in Insider 86. Do you have access to that issue?

#41 Posted by darthvenki (11 posts) - - Show Bio

Is anyone here taking into account that Darth Tenebrous stripped Plagueis of foresight, that was the reason that he was not able to see his own death (being so powerful). I know the king of kings is my fav sithlord (Darth Sidious) but I also feel except for DE Sidious, Plagueis could have won in a duel. Again, its just my opinion.

#42 Posted by darklord_apoc (1346 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

Plagueis should win round 1. I don't think Palpatine was necessarily good enough at that point to beat Plagueis in a fair fight. He took him off guard and was victorious. But if they were in a straight forward, Bane vs Zannah-like duel, I think Plagueis would have won.

Palpatine takes the rest, though. The second round might be a decent fight. I think Palpatine might stomp in the other two, though; I am of the opinion that RotJ and DE Palpatine are one in the same. The reason being that DE Palpatine just had the chance to cut loose, whereas he had no excuse to do so prior. RotJ Palpatine should be able to do everything DE can, the only difference being that it appeared DE Palpatine had more experience with essence transfer than RotJ.

Actually didnt Sidious know all about Plagueis's abilities around the time that he killed him? I honestly think that Sidious still would have won even if he had to fight Plagueis in a head on battle... Sidious is the type that instead of a prolong fight he some times cheats but not because he does not think he can win... Besides Sidious gets a kick out of torturing his enemies, so if he gave Plagueis a chance I feel Sidious would win but not be able to torture him as he did... I think Sidious would have to hurry and kill him instead... Another example is when Yoda knocked Sidious down, then what did Sidious do?? He got up and tried to run away, but we yet Sidious won anyways... Imo I feel like Sidious is the type that if he's not 100 % sure of himself that he will not risk it and run away even if he's 70% sure that he may win... But the reason I feel Sidious could win is because he felt in the force that Plagueis was trying to hold on to the mid a chorliens (sorry I am not the best speller lol) and Sidious was bragging about how he learned all his master knew and how he could save him if he wanted to, so I feel like Sidious wanted to torture him all along, and like other villains I think he wanted to brag about it while he did it, but if Plagueis was alert then Sidious would not get to torture him like he wanted to and brag about his entire plans... Sidious power alone in T.P.M was able to mess with the Jedi all over the galaxy and he has been able to even be around Jedi and avoid them sensing him, so to me that shows how much he already knew, and plus I think Sidious was already a top speedster at that time, and I feel his will was far greater than his master, so like Bane and Zanana, I think Sidious could beat Plaguies in a battle of the wills... He made it clear that he knew everything from his master by the time he killed him, so I do not think he was lying because if that was the case he would have killed Plagueis sooner, yet, he knew he could not.... So this time he seemed sure but just wanted to torture his master and mock him, as well as boasting about how greater he was....

#43 Posted by darthvenki (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

Plagueis should win round 1. I don't think Palpatine was necessarily good enough at that point to beat Plagueis in a fair fight. He took him off guard and was victorious. But if they were in a straight forward, Bane vs Zannah-like duel, I think Plagueis would have won.

Palpatine takes the rest, though. The second round might be a decent fight. I think Palpatine might stomp in the other two, though; I am of the opinion that RotJ and DE Palpatine are one in the same. The reason being that DE Palpatine just had the chance to cut loose, whereas he had no excuse to do so prior. RotJ Palpatine should be able to do everything DE can, the only difference being that it appeared DE Palpatine had more experience with essence transfer than RotJ.

Actually didnt Sidious know all about Plagueis's abilities around the time that he killed him? I honestly think that Sidious still would have won even if he had to fight Plagueis in a head on battle... Sidious is the type that instead of a prolong fight he some times cheats but not because he does not think he can win... Besides Sidious gets a kick out of torturing his enemies, so if he gave Plagueis a chance I feel Sidious would win but not be able to torture him as he did... I think Sidious would have to hurry and kill him instead... Another example is when Yoda knocked Sidious down, then what did Sidious do?? He got up and tried to run away, but we yet Sidious won anyways... Imo I feel like Sidious is the type that if he's not 100 % sure of himself that he will not risk it and run away even if he's 70% sure that he may win... But the reason I feel Sidious could win is because he felt in the force that Plagueis was trying to hold on to the mid a chorliens (sorry I am not the best speller lol) and Sidious was bragging about how he learned all his master knew and how he could save him if he wanted to, so I feel like Sidious wanted to torture him all along, and like other villains I think he wanted to brag about it while he did it, but if Plagueis was alert then Sidious would not get to torture him like he wanted to and brag about his entire plans... Sidious power alone in T.P.M was able to mess with the Jedi all over the galaxy and he has been able to even be around Jedi and avoid them sensing him, so to me that shows how much he already knew, and plus I think Sidious was already a top speedster at that time, and I feel his will was far greater than his master, so like Bane and Zanana, I think Sidious could beat Plaguies in a battle of the wills... He made it clear that he knew everything from his master by the time he killed him, so I do not think he was lying because if that was the case he would have killed Plagueis sooner, yet, he knew he could not.... So this time he seemed sure but just wanted to torture his master and mock him, as well as boasting about how greater he was....

Well, I dont think Sidious was far greater than his master. Even though it would seem Sidious may be better, especially when he was boasting, It can be never cemented that he was more powerful since both of them were called most powerful. Unless we know more of Plagueis's feats (in some future comics or anything) we can never be sure. So its ultimately everyone's own opinions.

My opinion is that except for DE Sidious, Plagueis was stronger. Only because Tenebrous stripped him of foresight he was not able to foresee his own death. EVEN after this he still had a little foresight as told in the novel (now that is power) towards the end, but not as good to foresee his death. cheers.

#44 Posted by darthvenki (11 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion, DE should never be considered canon. Sadly it is. It was just created to make Luke and Sidious look formidable and over-hyping powers of Sidious.

Plagueis's bringing back Venamis was amazing.

#45 Posted by Beam3000 (133 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver2467: I think Sidious will probably loose round 1. Due to the fact he resorted to kill his master in his sleep even when Plagues wasn't in his prime. Rots-DE I believe Sidious will win easier and easier. I believe Sidious would be able to beat Plagues in Rots because he was too powerful for Yoda at that point.

#46 Posted by darthvenki (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@beam3000 said:

@silver2467: I think Sidious will probably loose round 1. Due to the fact he resorted to kill his master in his sleep even when Plagues wasn't in his prime. Rots-DE I believe Sidious will win easier and easier. I believe Sidious would be able to beat Plagues in Rots because he was too powerful for Yoda at that point.

What if Plagueis survived till ROTS... would you consider Sidious beating him then ? Plagueis was always ahead. Once Plagueis concealed his presence even from Sidious during TPM. If he was ahead of Sidious during TPM. Logically, if he has survived (which people are speculating), he would be ahead of Sidious.

#47 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5204 posts) - - Show Bio

This is nice. I don't know much about these guys.

#48 Edited by Darthsith500 (7 posts) - - Show Bio

1.Sidious still wins. Its stated Sidious kept his master alive until he became more powerful then him and learned everything he knew...then he offed him. It would be close though, 6/10 Sidious.

2.Sidious takes this again aswell. 8/10 would be fair. Sidious has a slight edge in the force, I would give the strength edge to Plagueis(although it would be close as Sidious has held of Opress/Maul both with just ONE hand well laughing) about even in speed but Sidious gets the slight node(speedblitzed 3 of the greatest Jedi Masters ever, and would have killed the 4th). In sabers Sidious is far better, The only feat of note Plagueis has in dueling is defeating Venamis. Sidious has defeated Maul + Opress easily, defeated 3 of the greatest Jedi Masters(was a better swordsmen then the 4th and would have killed him had he not been holding back to lure Anakin to the darkside), stalemated with Yoda(most powerful Jedi of all time and greatest saber duelist in the history of the order besides Luke) and was a master of all 7forms of lightsaber combat. Sidious takes it 8/10.

3.Sidious has increased his power from ROTS at this point(in the force). He takes it.

4.Sidious takes this. No need to explain.

#49 Edited by Beam3000 (133 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthvenki: That would be very interesting. I still would lean towards Sidious for two main reasons. One Plagueis would still be at a disadvantage because of his life support system. And Plagueis isn't always ahead of Sidious because Sidious planned to kill him and succeeded by killing him in his sleep. If Plagueis was in his prime I could see him being more of a threat. But comparing him to DE emperor I think he would still get his head handed to him.

#50 Posted by darthvenki (11 posts) - - Show Bio

@beam3000 said:

@darthvenki: That would be very interesting. I still would lean towards Sidious for two main reasons. One Plagueis would still be at a disadvantage because of his life support system. And Plagueis isn't always ahead of Sidious because Sidious planned to kill him and succeeded by killing him in his sleep. If Plagueis was in his prime I could see him being more of a threat. But comparing him to DE emperor I think he would still get his head handed to him.

Life support system was nothing like vader's. In the novel Sidious himself observes Plagueis as a rotating orb of terrifying energy. And Sidious killed him because darkside whispered to him to do so. In fact Sidious was about to leave the room when darkside whispered. The fact that darkside whispered to him to kill him in his sleep while drunk is a testament to Plagueis power. Why not take him down in a duel. If not a duel why not take Plagueis down when he was awake but unsuspecting ? Because it cannot be done. You can definitely understand. Again, its a argument (Thats what this forum is for ainit ? :) )

Apart from the above argument, in 'my' opinion DE should never be considered Canon. It was created to make Luke formidable. How do you do that ? By bringing Sidious back n more powerful. It was more Dragonball Z. :D