Darth Nihilus vs. Darth Bane vs. Darth Revan vs. Sidious

All four are at their peak power.

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Scenario 1: Four way free for all...who wins?

a) Force powers only

b) Lightsabres only

c) Anything goes

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Scenario 2: Each Sith Lord must fight every other Sith Lord.

a) Force powers only

b) Lightsabres only

c) Anything goes

A loss leads to resurrection for the next battle. Combatants are in optimal condition at the start of every battle.

The victor is whoever has the best win-loss ratio.

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Battlefield: An endless flat plain. All combatants start 50m away from each other (in a square arrangement)

Palpatine solos.

Wouldn't Nihilus be able to feed on him? I added some rules BTW

@m0ntyb0y said:

Wouldn't Nihilus be able to feed on him? I added some rules BTW

Exactly. That's the one reason people always have for wondering. Truth be told Sidious himself has done something similar and drained the life from people, but never on the scale of Nihilus. There's absolutely no way to no if Sidious, Revan or Bane would be able to resist Nihilus power. If they could then a battle could really happen. If they couldn't Nihilus solos. However, Palpatine has the ability to opens wormholes in the Force and transport people across the galaxy. He could just open one and transport Nihilus away. Bane and Revan don't have any widescale power like this however.

Exactly. That's the one reason people always have for wondering. Truth be told Sidious himself has done something similar and drained the life from people, but never on the scale of Nihilus. There's absolutely no way to no if Sidious, Revan or Bane would be able to resist Nihilus power.

@JediXMan

Palpatine solos.

@Silver2467: @JediXMan: These threads are almost pointless to respond to with you two around.

I would have posted something. But the experts are already here with the freakin' Wars' Signal behind them.

In terms of awesomeness however, I'm tied between Nihilus and Revan.

@Supreme Marvel said:

I would have posted something. But the experts are already here with the freakin' Wars' Signal behind them.

In terms of awesomeness however, I'm tied between Nihilus and Revan.

I would like to say Revan is the most badass character out of the four.

@Silver2467 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

Exactly. That's the one reason people always have for wondering. Truth be told Sidious himself has done something similar and drained the life from people, but never on the scale of Nihilus. There's absolutely no way to no if Sidious, Revan or Bane would be able to resist Nihilus power.

This is not true at all.

First and foremost, Palpatine used Drain on a scale even greater than Nihilus. Nihilus used Drain to siphon the life energies of a colony world; Palpatine used Drain to siphon the life energies of a world with a populace of 20 billion. Katarr not only never had that many people on it, it was not even close to as large a planet as Byss was. Secondly, we do know for a fact that Sidious is immune to life draining effects. During the Clone Wars, Dooku discovered the Dark Reaper, which is a superweapon employed by Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma during the Great Sith War that leeches the life of armies to kill them. In order to utilize the Dark Reaper without killing himself, Dooku had to know a resistance to draining effects, and according to a Fact File issue, directly before uncovering the Dark Reaper, he rendezvoused with Sidious. We also know that Anakin learned an equivalent immunity from a recording/spirit of Ulic, who had not taught to Dooku; so Palpatine is the only other person Dooku could have learned it from, which only makes sense given the aforementioned meeting Tyranus and Sidious had. Additionally, many of the Dark Side Adepts possess the power to feed on the life energies of millions, and Sidious would never allow his subordinates to learn a power he himself had no defense against. Furthermore, even if Palpatine were incapable of resisting Drain (which he is), Nihilus would still be stomped by him. Palpatine is too fast for Nihilus to even see; he could WVSB. He can project Lightning sufficient to reduce people to ashes. He can effortlessly telekinetically destroy buildings. As JediX said, he can open a wormhole. As well, Palpatine can control other Sith's spirits, as he showed in Sithisis, and since Nihilus is merely an Essence residing in an amor, Palpatine could control him. And most importantly, even if Nihilus could Drain Palpatine and for whatever reason had the opportunity to do so despite the fact that Sidious is far and away faster than he is, Nihilus has no means of defeating Sidious' spirit. So the best he could hope for is a stalemate. But he is not capable of Draining Palpatine; so the point is moot.

No, Palpatine vs Nihilus is not ambiguous at all; it is an obvious stomp.

@JediXMan

said:

Palpatine solos.

Well then Sidious wins.

Palpatine drains Nihilus and then slaughters Bane and Revan.

@Deranged Midget said:

@Silver2467: @JediXMan: These threads are almost pointless to respond to with you two around.

I know right?

@Deranged Midget: That's always a winner in my book

Sidious wins every round.

Screw it time to troll just to make this fight interesting. Revan would win because he came back from the force as an actual person (see SWTOR) while Sissyious (Yeah sissy-ous cause he's like 80 and that's not cool) only came back as a force ghost. Revan also is known as the prodigal one, has a mandalorean mask closely resembling Bobba Fett and if transitional properties come into effect then Bobba's coolness only makes Revan all the better. Guy was shot with a friggin cannon and survived it while being put into an amnesiac comma (the blast killed many of jedi with only Bastilla and Revan living and Bastilla was amped by battle meditation.) Revan in fact at the time was one of the strongest sithlords at the time. Oh and the battle with Malek > the battle with Sidious.

Now I understand the name "Wankatine"

Sidious wins. 
 
@Silver2467: Was Sidious considered more powerful than Darth Plagueis?

I read somewhere that the author said that had Sidious challenged his master directly, he would've died (Lucerno)

of course, Sidious probably grew a lot more powerful after getting his master drunk and killing him

@JediXMan said:

Palpatine solos.

@Deranged Midget said:

@Silver2467: @JediXMan: These threads are almost pointless to respond to with you two around.

*shrug*

@JediXMan said:

@Deranged Midget said:

@Silver2467: @JediXMan: These threads are almost pointless to respond to with you two around.

*shrug*

Well at least we'll always have a definite knowledge base to fall back to.

Anyone else?

@Sideslash said:

Palpatine drains Nihilus and then slaughters Bane and Revan.

@JediXMan said:

@m0ntyb0y: There's no real discussion to be had here. Palpatine solos; simple as that.

This is not true at all.

First and foremost, Palpatine used Drain on a scale even greater than Nihilus. Nihilus used Drain to siphon the life energies of a colony world; Palpatine used Drain to siphon the life energies of a world with a populace of 20 billion. Katarr not only never had that many people on it, it was not even close to as large a planet as Byss was. Secondly, we do know for a fact that Sidious is immune to life draining effects. During the Clone Wars, Dooku discovered the Dark Reaper, which is a superweapon employed by Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma during the Great Sith War that leeches the life of armies to kill them. In order to utilize the Dark Reaper without killing himself, Dooku had to know a resistance to draining effects, and according to a Fact

File

issue, directly before uncovering the Dark Reaper, he rendezvoused with Sidious. We also know that Anakin learned an equivalent immunity from a recording/spirit of Ulic, who had not taught to Dooku; so Palpatine is the only other person Dooku could have learned it from, which only makes sense given the aforementioned meeting Tyranus and Sidious had. Additionally, many of the Dark Side Adepts possess the power to feed on the life energies of millions, and Sidious would never allow his subordinates to learn a power he himself had no defense against. Furthermore, even if Palpatine were incapable of resisting Drain (which he is), Nihilus would still be stomped by him. Palpatine is too fast for Nihilus to even see; he could WVSB. He can project Lightning sufficient to reduce people to ashes. He can effortlessly telekinetically destroy buildings. As JediX said, he can open a wormhole. As well, Palpatine can control other Sith's spirits, as he showed in Sithisis, and since Nihilus is merely an Essence residing in an amor, Palpatine could control him. And most importantly, even if Nihilus could Drain Palpatine and for whatever reason had the opportunity to do so despite the fact that Sidious is far and away faster than he is, Nihilus has no means of defeating Sidious' spirit. So the best he could hope for is a stalemate. But he is not capable of Draining Palpatine; so the point is moot.

No, Palpatine vs Nihilus is not ambiguous at all; it is an obvious stomp.

this is biased seeing as Nihilus drained most of the galaxy showing that his powers kelp growing, and you don't just have a safe force to block his power, you have to be a certain someone to do it maybe like Surik. She protected them with a natural force of her own not one that was created she was basically his Ying to his Yang. Similar to naruto with there special bloodlines and abilities. Then you have Darth Revan who's legend surpasses darth Sidious out right and his skills with the lightsaber is far beyond Sidious, even if he beat Nihilus from light saber combat, he'll have to fight darth bane who's immune to parts of the force and is a power house who cannot be manipulated meaning that he would have to fight him and bane. If he manipulates Revan from his inner conflicts it's going to slow him down while he fight bane. Then Revan will more then likely regain his self and own Sidious and bane. I say Revan or Nihilus because Revan lived around a time when the jedi and sith were fighting back to back and the weakest jedi was just about as strong as maybe Mace. Who pretty much stomped and disfigured Palpatine. Also by Yoda statement the Jedi have got much weaker by the time of Sidious and luke became powerful but he wasn't the wisest nor the oldest to make that statement. During Revan's time the Jedi was at the height of there power, he was fighting battle hardened jedi, who have fought back to back to back, they were better trained mentally, they were better trained physically and they were better trained in the force. Saying that Palpatine was the strongest in the universe with no real feats is like one of those Dbz fan boy's claiming piccolo can destroy the galaxy with a flick of his finger. If Palpatine was that powerful how could he die from a dieing apprentice.? and why did he have to strike down his master while he was asleep? Sidious was all about the dark side but Revan went to both sides and regained himself both times, and got stronger with each change. Also Revan defeated people similar to Nihilus, he defeated individuals that were able to siphon the life force out of others. Isn't Darth Revan undefeated? he has defeated Bastila (with the power of the star forge), Darth Bandon, and Lord Malak (with the power of the star forge) . In my opinion Revans even stronger then Yoda and wiser then him to, and Yoda fought Palpatine to a stalemate. My reason for saying that is because Revan was described as the heart of the force and saw beyond the immediate threat that he'd created. He saw that there was a greater threat than what others saw, whilst yoda couldn't even figure out that Palpatine was Darth Sidious. So I don't even think Sidious could munipulate Darth Revan, Then we have him use a hologram to teach darth bane who moves a moon, something with weight and mass, not just opening a wormhole which is a impressive feat don't get me wrong, but it's not a stomp for Sidious as some might want to believe. Siduos has that force storm but Revan mass shadow generator was created with revan's intellect and rivals the power of sidious's wormhole. I dont remember a wound in the force being created by force storm. Bane learned a majority of what he knew about the sith from Revan's holocrons. set. Match. Fights are not governed by force ability, inteligence is required and one persons wide effects on the galaxy. Revan's actions have constantly changed the face of the galaxy, even thousands of years later when his holocrons are discovered. The star forge was the holy grail of darkside power, it fed off of it and produced it. Darkside users gain boosts when there surround by the dark energy. Therefore bastila was that much stronger on the star forge. Bandon was Malak's apprentice. Nuff said. Malak was great and had the power of the star forge combined with the ability to rip the life energy out of anyone. Defeating some that powerful is definitely a feat worthy of putting revan above people such as Bane or Sidious. And just like you said. Sidious has never defeated anyone with that power which is because he cant.

Bane learned from Revan

AS a Tactician- Revan defeated the Mandalorians singlehandedly.

Force Power- Mastery of both sides of the force. XD

Sidious

As A tactician- Created the second sith empire which was responsible for the near defeat of the republic (which he himself prevented) and the first great Jedi purge (acted out by the sith Triumvirate)

Force Power- Provided enough power to activate the star forge. The rakata had abandoned the star forge once they lost there force power and there Infinite Empire. When Revan and Malak traveled there him and Malak revived the entire space station and began there conversion of the jedi.

There are no indefinite facts. No one has ever defeated Revan. No one. Sidious was defeated by Mace, a dying Vader, and Luke skywalker. All you can do is support a side and provide arguments. Same applies for Luke, who was defeated by both Vader and Sidious. In the old republic a Majority of men and woman had skills with a sword. Calling for a higher demand of skill for the Jedi. The duelists of that time could have been better than the duelists of the Galactic Empire era because close confrontation was highly unlikely.

if I remember correctly Nihilus was created when the Exile severed his ties to the force at Malachor. which for some reason, that was fairly well written, but I can't fully recall, means that Nihilus can suck the life force out of anyone and anything that has the force. With the exception of The exile who is the positive to Nihulis's negative and thus cancels him out. So Sidious can't just come up with a force skill because Nihilus is a wound in the force, same with the exile. However Sidious is not, which means his life can be absorbed.

@mitran: Enlighten me, which part is wrong, Sidious losing to a dieing apprentice killing his master in his sleep, or the part about Darth Revan being undefeated.

@mitran: if I remember correctly Nihilus was created when the Exile severed his ties to the force at Malachor. which for some reason, that was fairly well written, but I can't fully recall, means that Nihilus can suck the life force out of anyone and anything that has the force. With the exception of The exile who is the positive to Nihulis's negative and thus cancels him out. So Sidious can't just come up with a force skill because Nihilus is a wound in the force, same with the exile. However Sidious is not, which means his life can be absorbed.

I don't see any point in someone bumping this thread. Any rabid SW will just tell you George Lucas himself stated Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever and gave the metaphorical Finger to everyone of the writing staff.

@silver2467:

This is not true at all.

First and foremost, Palpatine used Drain on a scale even greater than Nihilus. Nihilus used Drain to siphon the life energies of a colony world; Palpatine used Drain to siphon the life energies of a world with a populace of 20 billion. Katarr not only never had that many people on it, it was not even close to as large a planet as Byss was. Secondly, we do know for a fact that Sidious is immune to life draining effects. During the Clone Wars, Dooku discovered the Dark Reaper, which is a superweapon employed by Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma during the Great Sith War that leeches the life of armies to kill them. In order to utilize the Dark Reaper without killing himself, Dooku had to know a resistance to draining effects, and according to a Fact

File

issue, directly before uncovering the Dark Reaper, he rendezvoused with Sidious. We also know that Anakin learned an equivalent immunity from a recording/spirit of Ulic, who had not taught to Dooku; so Palpatine is the only other person Dooku could have learned it from, which only makes sense given the aforementioned meeting Tyranus and Sidious had. Additionally, many of the Dark Side Adepts possess the power to feed on the life energies of millions, and Sidious would never allow his subordinates to learn a power he himself had no defense against. Furthermore, even if Palpatine were incapable of resisting Drain (which he is), Nihilus would still be stomped by him. Palpatine is too fast for Nihilus to even see; he could WVSB. He can project Lightning sufficient to reduce people to ashes. He can effortlessly telekinetically destroy buildings. As JediX said, he can open a wormhole. As well, Palpatine can control other Sith's spirits, as he showed in Sithisis, and since Nihilus is merely an Essence residing in an amor, Palpatine could control him. And most importantly, even if Nihilus could Drain Palpatine and for whatever reason had the opportunity to do so despite the fact that Sidious is far and away faster than he is, Nihilus has no means of defeating Sidious' spirit. So the best he could hope for is a stalemate. But he is not capable of Draining Palpatine; so the point is moot.

No, Palpatine vs Nihilus is not ambiguous at all; it is an obvious stomp.

this is biased seeing as Nihilus drained most of the galaxy showing that his powers kelp growing, and you don't just have a safe force to block his power, you have to be a certain someone to do it maybe like Surik. She protected them with a natural force of her own not one that was created she was basically his Ying to his Yang. Similar to naruto with there special bloodlines and abilities. Then you have Darth Revan who's legend surpasses darth Sidious out right and his skills with the lightsaber is far beyond Sidious, even if he beat Nihilus from light saber combat, he'll have to fight darth bane who's immune to parts of the force and is a power house who cannot be manipulated meaning that he would have to fight him and bane. If he manipulates Revan from his inner conflicts it's going to slow him down while he fight bane. Then Revan will more then likely regain his self and own Sidious and bane. I say Revan or Nihilus because Revan lived around a time when the jedi and sith were fighting back to back and the weakest jedi was just about as strong as maybe Mace. Who pretty much stomped and disfigured Palpatine. Also by Yoda statement the Jedi have got much weaker by the time of Sidious and luke became powerful but he wasn't the wisest nor the oldest to make that statement. During Revan's time the Jedi was at the height of there power, he was fighting battle hardened jedi, who have fought back to back to back, they were better trained mentally, they were better trained physically and they were better trained in the force. Saying that Palpatine was the strongest in the universe with no real feats is like one of those Dbz fan boy's claiming piccolo can destroy the galaxy with a flick of his finger. If Palpatine was that powerful how could he die from a dieing apprentice.? and why did he have to strike down his master while he was asleep? Sidious was all about the dark side but Revan went to both sides and regained himself both times, and got stronger with each change. Also Revan defeated people similar to Nihilus, he defeated individuals that were able to siphon the life force out of others. Isn't Darth Revan undefeated? he has defeated Bastila (with the power of the star forge), Darth Bandon, and Lord Malak (with the power of the star forge) . In my opinion Revans even stronger then Yoda and wiser then him to, and Yoda fought Palpatine to a stalemate. My reason for saying that is because Revan was described as the heart of the force and saw beyond the immediate threat that he'd created. He saw that there was a greater threat than what others saw, whilst yoda couldn't even figure out that Palpatine was Darth Sidious. So I don't even think Sidious could munipulate Darth Revan, Then we have him use a hologram to teach darth bane who moves a moon, something with weight and mass, not just opening a wormhole which is a impressive feat don't get me wrong, but it's not a stomp for Sidious as some might want to believe. Siduos has that force storm but Revan mass shadow generator was created with revan's intellect and rivals the power of sidious's wormhole. I dont remember a wound in the force being created by force storm. Bane learned a majority of what he knew about the sith from Revan's holocrons. set. Match. Fights are not governed by force ability, inteligence is required and one persons wide effects on the galaxy. Revan's actions have constantly changed the face of the galaxy, even thousands of years later when his holocrons are discovered. The star forge was the holy grail of darkside power, it fed off of it and produced it. Darkside users gain boosts when there surround by the dark energy. Therefore bastila was that much stronger on the star forge. Bandon was Malak's apprentice. Nuff said. Malak was great and had the power of the star forge combined with the ability to rip the life energy out of anyone. Defeating some that powerful is definitely a feat worthy of putting revan above people such as Bane or Sidious. And just like you said. Sidious has never defeated anyone with that power which is because he cant.

Bane learned from Revan

AS a Tactician- Revan defeated the Mandalorians singlehandedly.

Force Power- Mastery of both sides of the force. XD

Sidious

As A tactician- Created the second sith empire which was responsible for the near defeat of the republic (which he himself prevented) and the first great Jedi purge (acted out by the sith Triumvirate)

Force Power- Provided enough power to activate the star forge. The rakata had abandoned the star forge once they lost there force power and there Infinite Empire. When Revan and Malak traveled there him and Malak revived the entire space station and began there conversion of the jedi.

There are no indefinite facts. No one has ever defeated Revan. No one. Sidious was defeated by Mace, a dying Vader, and Luke skywalker. All you can do is support a side and provide arguments. Same applies for Luke, who was defeated by both Vader and Sidious. In the old republic a Majority of men and woman had skills with a sword. Calling for a higher demand of skill for the Jedi. The duelists of that time could have been better than the duelists of the Galactic Empire era because close confrontation was highly unlikely.

if I remember correctly Nihilus was created when the Exile severed his ties to the force at Malachor. which for some reason, that was fairly well written, but I can't fully recall, means that Nihilus can suck the life force out of anyone and anything that has the force. With the exception of The exile who is the positive to Nihulis's negative and thus cancels him out. So Sidious can't just come up with a force skill because Nihilus is a wound in the force, same with the exile. However Sidious is not, which means his life can be absorbed.

What in the world was this bumped for?

Please paragraph that slab of text - it just looks revolting if it's just an enormous wall of text that begs to be ignored. By the way, your post also begs to be ignored in that it contains so much conjecture and incorrect information that I hardly think you are in a position to be calling others biased or anything of the matter. Essentially, your post is just a blend of red herrings, conjecture and incorrect information.

Also, it isn't actually biased (if anything, you are the only biased person who is attempting to argue against canon). Palpatine has been stated by numerous sources to be the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history:

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

Source: Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Source: The New Essential Chronology

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I'll answer a few other points:

Revan defeating the Mandalorians

: Right, so defeating a bunch of featless warriors in conjunction with an army of Republic soldiers and Jedi is actually a feat worth noting...... and no, he didn't defeat them singlehandedly. He defeated Mandalore singlehandedly, and he is featless which doesn't equate to being the victor here.

Bane learnt from Revan: Irrelevant. Learning much of, if not potentially everything that another being learnt doesn't make the student inferior to the master. Palpatine learnt from and surpassed Plagueis, Luke learnt from and surpassed Yoda and Obi-Wan. Bane has much, much better feats in virtually everything - telekinesis, lightsaber dueling, usage of other abilities such as Force Lightning, etc.

Revan was invincible: Where in the world do other people get this misconceived myth of Revan's invincibility; regardless, it needs to be dispelled. Who stated Revan was never defeated? Read the Revan novel, and you will understand that he was knocked unconscious by a crash landing, and was horribly injured by Vitiate. He was defeated again in TOR.

The only person who really defeated Palpatine in combat was Luke. Vader was taking Palpatine by surprise and still died - and Palpatine threw the duel with Windu and the Masters - he sensed the masters were coming quite some time ago, and Windu received an exorbitant amp in order to only stalemate Palpatine. In addition to this: Palpatine was shown to be capable of killing Windu via Force Lightning (and quite possibly other means) at any time he required. This came all directly from the RotS novel and was supported by a few sourcebooks and guides. All are actual canon, and you have nothing to argue against them.

Nihilus's birth: No, Nihilus was not born when Surik severed herself off from the Force (where in the world did that come from)? Surik severing herself off from the Force has nothing to do with Nihilus, she had to sever herself in order to survive from Mass Shadow Generator and the countless other deaths of Jedi, Mandalorians and Republic soldiers. That was to save herself, Nihilus was stated as having lost everything in the Mandalorian Wars, which could relate to the Mass Shadow Generator, but Surik saving herself has nothing to do with that.

Naruto: Irrelevant.

About the Palpatine vs. Windu issue, I'll throw down the evidence before you call me biased again:

Palpatine clearly sensed the masters before they arrived, and sensed Anakin as well:

The Coruscant nightfall was spreading through the galaxy. The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was

the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception. In the night, the shadow felt the boy's anguish, and it was good. The shadow felt the grim determination of four Jedi Masters approaching by air. This, too, was good.

As a Jedi shuttle settled to the landing deck outside, the shadow sent its mind into the far deeper night within one of the several pieces of sculpture that graced the office: an abstract twist of solid neuranium, so heavy that the office floor had been specially reinforced to bear its weight, so dense that more sensitive species might, from very close range, actually perceive the tiny warping of the fabric of space-time that was its gravitation.

Neuranium of more than roughly a millimeter thick is impervious to sensors; the standard security scans undergone by all equipment and furniture to enter the Senate Office Building had shown nothing at all. If anyone had thought to use an advanced gravimetric detector, however, they might have discovered that one smallish section of the sculpture massed slightly less than it should have, given that the manifest that had accompanied it, when it was brought from Naboo among the then-ambassador's personal effects, clearly stated that it was a single piece of solid-forged neuranium.

The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid, and not all of it was neuranium. Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute darkness—darkness beyond darkness—for decades. Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.

The shadow felt Jedi Masters stride the vast echoic emptiness of the vaulted halls outside. It could practically hear the cadence of their boot heels on the Alderaanian marble. The darkness within the sculpture whispered of the shape and the feel and every intimate resonance of the device it cradled. With a twist of its will, the shadow triggered the device. The neuranium got warm. A small round spot, smaller than the circle a human child might make of thumb and forefinger, turned the color of old blood.

Then fresh blood.

Then open flame.

Finally a spear of scarlet energy lanced free, painting the office with the color of stars seen through the smoke of burning planets. The spear of energy lengthened, drawing with it out from the darkness the device, then the scarlet blade shrank away and the device slid itself within the softer darkness of a sleeve.

As shouts of the Force scattered Redrobes beyond the office's outer doors, the shadow gestured and lampdisks ignited. Another shout of the Force burst open the inner door to the private office. As Jedi stormed in, a final flick of the shadow's will triggered a recording device concealed within the desk.

Audio only.

"Why, Master Windu," said the shadow. "What a pleasant surprise."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Palpatine kills Kolar, Tinn and Fisto before Windu realizes what has happened:

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary

Windu receives an enormous amp in order to compete with Palpatine; this amp comes from Vaapad, a form of the seventh lightsaber form which channels darkness:

Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught—to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts—Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad—or Yoda's mastery of Ataro—"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Anakin's revelation—that Palpatine and Darth Sidious are one and the same—hollows Mace to the core. Not days earlier, he and other Jedi had risked their lives against Grievous's droid forces to prevent Palpatine from being abducted. Grasping that the abduction and the war itself has been nothing more than a deception, Mace leaps into action, promising to take Palpatine into Jedi custody, dead or alive.

Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary

This quote also expresses that Palpatine was fighting faster than Anakin could see:

Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.

Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."

For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.

He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.

And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.

Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.

He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.

They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—

That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—

All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—

Has all been for nothing.

Because it was all done to save the Republic.

Which was already gone.

Which had already fallen.

The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it,he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

All these amps have only led to an impasse, by the way. Also Palpatine could have killed Windu with Lightning, and he stopped short of killing him only to continue manipulating Anakin:

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.

"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"

He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—

And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

"Destroy this traitor," the Chancellor said, his voice raised aver the howl of writhing energy that joined his hands to Mace's blade. "This was never an arrest. It's an assassination!"

That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the dark side itself. Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker...

Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

I don't think it is necessary to go any further. I've overturn your ridiculous made-up information and proved Palpatine was the most powerful Sith Lord. There is no debate to be had here - Palpatine solos.

P.S. About the Force Drain issue - Palpatine has shown Force Drain on an even more significant scale than Nihilus. Additionally, he showed immunity to Force Drain in being immune to the Dark Reaper, which does pretty much exactly what Nihilus does - drain planets.

@shootingnova:

I'm going to say 1 thing. How did Palpatine surpass his master..? He doesn't even know how to make a being from complete force and he never fought him in a fair match he just killed him in his sleep, and claimed he surpassed him. I hate when people like you argue by saying reasonable logic, is irrelevant and not logic at all. If Bane learned from a hollow gram he would have never been able to move a moon which sense Revan started all of these idea's with the force. I'm sure he had more things under his sleave then Bane or Siduois knew about seeing as he's really the source of most of the Sith Lord's power.

I didn't say Revan was invincible I said he's undefeated, while Palpatine was defeated by a dieing sith lord who became a joke compared to his old self. Then he killed his master in his sleep and claimed he surpassed him yet he hasn't done anything close to what his master had achieved. Yoda fought him to a Stand still and Mace literately gave him a pounding. In his era he fought some of the weakest jedi compared to the past when the Jedi were much stronger as a whole. Yoda lived for a 1000years and said his-self that the Jedi has gotten much weaker. There's nothing really proven about Palpatine being the strongest Sith lord ever even the creator contradicted hisself a lot with Starwars. Luke probably said he was the most powerful, because that's the strongest Sith Lord "HE'S EVER FACED". He's only heard rumors of the other one's. However Darth Revan is Legendary in every regard, everyone know's how powerful he was, he destroyed the Republic and brung it back to life. From the outside not from people with connection in high places he did it on his own from the outside, both times. Revans apprentice brung the galaxy under his control, none of Sidious's apprentices managed to come close to doing that, not even Dooku and Darth Vader just made people afraid.

You've honestly proved nothing, you especially didn't prove he was the strongest Sith Lord in the universe you actually further proved my point, the amp that Mace had was nowhere near the amp that Bastila had with star forge, which is MUCH GREATER that Vaapad, and Darth Malak was probably stronger than Dooku plus the star forge.

One -- History showed that Revan was strong willed and able to resist powerful dark energies (such as emitted from Malachor V) as a light user and feed off of dark energies and a dark user.

Two -- Revan knew how Malak fought his style, strengths, and weaknesses.

Three -- The layout of the Star Forge was not unknown to Revan.

Unfortunately Mace has none of those advantages. I cannot not recall history showing Mace being able to resist dark energies emitted from something as powerful as the Star Forge. Remember the Star Forge corrupted a whole race because of the power of the dark energies emitted from it.

I dought Vaapad is the equivalent of the power of a star.

Darth Banes feats are even more incredible then palpatine's seeing as he Destroyed the entire Sith and nearly wiped out all the jedi with just 1 plan. Meaning his stratagies are way better then Sidious.

As for Yoda, Revan was described as the heart of the force and saw beyond the immediate threat that he'd created. He saw that there was a greater threat than what others saw, whilst yoda couldn't even figure out that Palpatine was Darth Sidious. Yoda was the greatest Jedi of his era yes. But an all time second? No not at all. Luke has never seen both sides of the coin. He could never understand the dark side the way that Revan does. Revans knowledge of both sides gives him an extreme advantage over these two amazing Jedi. Not to mention that Revan has never lost a battle either and he also defeated two terentatek single handedly.

1. Obviously there are exceptions to the idea that old jedi are stronger than new ones. But the idea still remains that the older the jedi the stronger. Sidious himself is a representation of this. His clones allowed him to live longer and thus gain more knowledge of the force than his norm life expectancy would allow.

2. Thats not true. He was surprised by Vaders actions and he was not any weaker because he was old. Second that force storm he russerected he did not have complete control over. He admits this himself. How about the Mass shadow generator? Bao-Dur created it but Revan designed the object.

3. Falling to the Darkside and achieving the rank of sith lord and putting the republic as well as the jedi order on the brink of collapse is to different things. Just because you fall to the dark side doesn't mean you know everything about the dark side. Kibh Jeen fell to the darkside, does that make him a master of its properties? No. Revan never made use of electric judgement but he has defeated dark jedi with ability to siphon the life force out of there enemy. When has Luke did that? Luke couldn't even take down a true sith lord without getting extra power.

4. George Lucas has also contradicted himself time and time again. How about we use better arguments than Kreia said this and George Lucas says that hmm?

5.Revan saved the republic as well as the jedi order twice and founded the Second sith empire. The holocrons he created taught Darth Bane what he needed to construct the next sith empire. He also created one of the first assassin droids. (HK-47) Revan is undefeated and a few of the people he has defeated are Bastila (with the power of the star forge), Darth Bandon, and Lord Malak (with the power of the star forge)

Did Luke replace sidious? No. Still not understanding my points. Luke has none of the experience of the dark side as Revan did. Luke has not dwelled in a wound of the force as Revan did. The mass shadow generator was created with revan's intellect and rivals the power of sidious's wormhole. I dont remember a wound in the force being created by force storm.

Bane learned a majority of what he knew about the sith from Revan's holocrons. set. Match. Fights are not governed by force ability, inteligence is required and one persons wide effects on the galaxy. Revan's actions have constantly changed the face of the galaxy, even thousands of years later when his holocrons are discovered. The star forge was the holy grail of darkside power, it fed off of it and produced it. Darkside users gain boosts when there surround by the dark energy. Therefore bastila was that much stronger on the star forge. Bandon was Malak's apprentice. Nuff said. Malak was great and had the power of the star forge combined with the ability to rip the life energy out of anyone. Defeating some that powerful is definitely a feat worthy of putting revan above people such as Bane or Sidious. And just like you said. Sidious has never defeated anyone with that power which is because he cant.

Okay, so if George Lucas says Han Solo can defeat Vader, that means its absolutely true? You can't just say oh the creator says this so its correct and nothing else matters because theres always another side and hes not a god. And george didnt even create Revan so.. yeah.

Taking command of pretty much the entire republic fleet and defeating the mandalorians single-handedly. Stop being so literal with everything. And Being a great tactician does make you better in a 1 0n 1 fight. It means your can access situations quicker and create sufficient responses to attacks and defenses. Revan also privided the means for the destruction of the sith through Darth Bane's might. Has something Palpatine done 3,000 years ago affect the future so greatly? No. and Neither has Luke. For that last part. He fire upon the ship Revan was on and debris crshed on top of him. If luke was in the same position he wouldnt have been able to heal because he would be dead. Not near dead just dead.

This could go anyway. If it came down to light saber duel. Revan would outlast Sidious. There is a problem with newer generation Sith. They were not as battle tested as the Old Republic. The anchient teachings were an everyday thing back in the day which made it easier for Siths a long time ago to learn and master. There were academys back then which taught it all. The teachings today are watered down and harder to come by.

Both were geniuses that had great force potential, and both supposedly mastered both light and dark side powers. I'm more inclined to say that Sidious was smarter, because he managed to manipulate the Republic so well for so long; but Revan was on the verge of completely crushing the republic (as well as on his way to conquering the galaxy) through his sheer cunning and tactical mind. Not to mention it was implied by Kreia that Revan was a necessary evil, purposely donning the guise of Sith lord to lure out the true Sith, making him a double agent; and considering the Sith really wouldn't rise up for another 300 years, kinda makes him more successful in his end goals.

Also your statement with Nihilus is a lie, the exile is the Ying to his Yang no one could resist his life siphoning powers except her or if she was around people. It's not the same as the reaper or Palpatine's kinda like all lighting is not the same and all of them can't be deflected. Nihilus power is the same as that factor nothing can stop it unless your the Exile. If your not the Exile your fate is sealed. Same with the Chosen One regardless of how it went Sidious was going to die to Anakin whether he gained all the power and became the Sith Lord as expected, whether his entire body was broken and his bones depleted, which kinda relates to him being Vader. Even if he was dieing, Sidious end was already in place no matter what. The evidence for this, is the mass amount of force Anakin had as a child, his hand being cut off and him giving a new one, his entire body burned, and needing to rely on a machine to breath. That same machine short circuiting after being doused with lighting, no matter what he was going to die by him.

Both were geniuses that had great force potential, and both supposedly mastered both light and dark side powers. I'm more inclined to say that Sidious was smarter, because he managed to manipulate the Republic so well for so long; but Revan was on the verge of completely crushing the republic (as well as on his way to conquering the galaxy) through his sheer cunning and tactical mind. Not to mention it was implied by Kreia that Revan was a necessary evil, purposely donning the guise of Sith lord to lure out the true Sith, making him a double agent; and considering the Sith really wouldn't rise up for another 300 years, kinda makes him more successful in his end goals.

@liquidnazo: Are you serious? Are you still going to ignore canon? And learn to read the damn REVAN NOVEL. Revan was defeated in that - twice, and defeated again in TOR. He was never, never stated to be undefeated.

You have no feats, no evidence, no anything. You are still arguing against canon.

You continue to argue against the evidence I provided to show Palpatine threw the fight and could have killed Mace at any moment - if you continue on to ramble about unfounded claims and ignore everything I post - then I am flagging you for trolling, since what you are doing is essentially tantamount to trolling.

And yeah, say what I said was a lie, too. Your evidence? Nothing. Don't call the person with evidence a liar if you can't provide any evidence whatsoever. I never said anything about logic, so I don't know what you are ranting on about.

And seriously? There is no such thing as the "Heart of the Force", just as there is no such thing as the "Death of the Force". I thought you would know by now, that that was an exorbitant exaggeration on Kreia's part. There is no Heart of the Force or Death of the Force in relation to the Living Force and the Unifying Force, and those are the only correct "theorems" (or whatever you wish to call them), in regards to the Force.

Nihilus is not the only one who knew Drain, but he was the only one to become a slave to his hunger. The Exile being a wound in the Force is irrelevant, since that is not the only way of avoiding Drain. Anakin was taught Drain immunity by Ulic Qel-Droma, while Dooku and Palpatine showed the ability to resist the Dark Reaper, which can utilize Drain to about the extent of Nihilus.

And bringing the Star Forge into this? LOL. We have no measure of whatever amp that would give in a personal fight, and it isn't relevant.

How is Revan going to defeat Palpatine in a duel if he cannot react? As I said, Palpatine has fought faster than Mace, Anakin, Maul and Leia could see - Anakin alone has reacted to sub-light starship motion. Revan lacks that reaction feat, so how on earth is he going to defeat Palpatine, who is additionally an ambidextrous master of all seven lightsaber forms of combat and all their techniques and stances?

Where in the love of the world have you found Bane > Sidious in feats? Bane manipulating the Sith into destroying themselves is not a personal combat feat, and I could argue Palpatine hiding from the Jedi in plain, public view is superior - especially granted that that was the golden age of the Jedi.

For their feats -

Bane has fought and ran in blurs, Palpatine has fought at near-relativistic speeds that prevented some of the best Jedi/Sith from actually seeing him. Bane wouldn't be able to react, either - until you give proof he can react to near-relativistic speeds. I've given proof Palpatine can fight at such speeds - you have yet to refute that with any other than your unfounded claims.

Bane's Lightning (while he had at least one orbalisk, in other words, an amp) was able to kill people and leave their corpses charred. Without amps, Palpatine's Lightning has lit the surface of planets, destroy small armies with a single burst, and overwhelm Yoda's deflection (which is superior to Revan's demonstrated Tutaminis, by the way).

Bane is master of Form III and V, with I believe some proficiency at VII - Palpatine is an ambidextrous master of all seven lightsaber forms and all their techniques and stances. And this isn't really a feat, either, but I'm just going to throw it out.

Bane noted he could not utilize Drain effectively without amps, and even then he could only drain featless mobs. Palpatine demonstrated Drain on an even greater scale than Nihilus - he enslaved the minds of the twenty billion people on Byss (an feat not replicated or even approached by Bane, Nihilus or Revan) and proceeded to Drain them at his leisure, capable of doing so passively, that is, he doesn't even need to focus on them to drain them. He has drained twenty billion, Nihilus has drained a colony world.

Palpatine conjured an entire Force storm on Vjun by simply appearing as a holographic image:

Outside, the wind picked up another notch, shrieking and groaning among the eleven chimneys as if to announce the arrival of a hideous guest. Dooku's comm console chimed. He glanced over, expecting the daily report from General Grievous, or perhaps a message from Asajj Ventress. He reached over to open the channel, ecognized the digital signature of the incoming transmission, jabbed the channel open, and snapped to his feet. "You called, my Master?"
The hologrammic projector on his desk sprang to life, and the wavering form of Darth Sidious regarded him. As always the picture was oozy and unclear, as if light itself were uneasy in the presence of the Lord of the Sith. Dark robes, purple shadows—a patch of skin, pale and mottled under his hooded cloak like a fungus growing under a rotten log. From under heavy lids the Master's eyes, snake-cold and serpent-wise, regarded him.
"What would you have of me, Master?"
"From you? Everything, of course." Darth Sidious sounded amused. "There was a time when I wasn't sure if you would be able to overcome that...independent streak of yours. After all, you were born to one of the wealthiest families in the galaxy, with gifts and abilities far, far greater than any amount of wealth could bestow. Your understanding is deep; your will, adamant. Is it any wonder you should be proud? Why, how could it be otherwise?"
Dooku said, "I have always served you well and faithfully, my Master."
"You have. But you must admit, your spirit was not made for fidelity. After all, a man who will not bow to the Jedi Council, or even Master Yoda...I wondered if perhaps loyalty was too mean, too confining a thing to ask from so great a being as yourself."
Dooku tried to smile. "The war progresses well. Our plans are on schedule. I have dealt out your deaths, your schemes, your betrayals. I have paid for your war with my time, my riches, my friends, and my honor."
"Holding nothing back?" Sidious asked lightly.
"Nothing. I swear it."
"Excellent," Darth Sidious said. "Yoda came to the Chancellor's office this morning. He is going on a very special mission. Top secret." He laughed, a harsh sound like the bark of a crow. The wind rose again, shrieking around the mansion like a creature in torment. "When he arrives, Dooku...see that you treat him as he deserves."
Darth Sidious laughed. Dooku wanted to laugh along, but couldn't quite manage it before his Master cut the connection and disappeared.

Dooku paced his office. With the end of Sidious' call, the storm had slackened, and the shrieking wind outside now only sobbed quietly under the gables of Château Malreaux.

Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

It is obvious he has much, much better feats than Bane - don't delude yourself by trying to make up more excuses.

About Palpatine surpassing his master - what exactly does that have to do here? Palpatine was not as his prime at the point, he was at his prime in DE. In his prime, he was more powerful than Plagueis, as he was the most powerful Sith. Midi-chlorian manipulation was the practically the only thing Palpatine could not do, at least when he killed Plagueis. Regardless, sources do say that:

In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Sidious served for many decades as the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, learning diligently at the feet of his Master. Once he possessed all of Plagueis' secrets, he retired him.

Credit to Silver

Source: Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

"My own Master, Darth Plagueis, made the grave error of teaching me too much, at which point he became unnecessary."

Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

So yes, he did surpass Plagueis in everything aside from Midi-Chlorian manipulation, and Plagueis created Anakin by accident with Palpatine's help.

At some point, Palpatine learnt all Force applications and could invent new ones at his leisure:

Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

Sourec: Dark Empire Sourcebook

Palpatine himself is a Force nexus.

The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

Source: The Dark Empire endnotes

Palpatine is also the most powerful Sith Lord to exist, as I have proved already, and he is the only one who could create a Wormhole that could destroy planets, fleets and transport beings across the galaxy. Darth Rivan once replicated this with the aid of relics and trinkets, and he still lost control of the Wormhole, which still drained all his energies and led to his demise.

If you wish to see more of Palpatine's powers, refer to this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/silver2467/blog/emperor-palpatinedarth-sidious-respect-thread/63101/

@shootingnova:

I'm going to say 1 thing. How did Palpatine surpass his master..? He doesn't even know how to make a being from complete force and he never fought him in a fair match he just killed him in his sleep, and claimed he surpassed him. I hate when people like you argue by saying reasonable logic, is irrelevant and not logic at all. If Bane learned from a hollow gram he would have never been able to move a moon which sense Revan started all of these idea's with the force. I'm sure he had more things under his sleave then Bane or Siduois knew about seeing as he's really the source of most of the Sith Lord's power.

I didn't say Revan was invincible I said he's undefeated, while Palpatine was defeated by a dieing sith lord who became a joke compared to his old self. Then he killed his master in his sleep and claimed he surpassed him yet he hasn't done anything close to what his master had achieved. Yoda fought him to a Stand still and Mace literately gave him a pounding. In his era he fought some of the weakest jedi compared to the past when the Jedi were much stronger as a whole. Yoda lived for a 1000years and said his-self that the Jedi has gotten much weaker. There's nothing really proven about Palpatine being the strongest Sith lord ever even the creator contradicted hisself a lot with Starwars. Luke probably said he was the most powerful, because that's the strongest Sith Lord "HE'S EVER FACED". He's only heard rumors of the other one's. However Darth Revan is Legendary in every regard, everyone know's how powerful he was, he destroyed the Republic and brung it back to life. From the outside not from people with connection in high places he did it on his own from the outside, both times. Revans apprentice brung the galaxy under his control, none of Sidious's apprentices managed to come close to doing that, not even Dooku and Darth Vader just made people afraid.

You've honestly proved nothing, you especially didn't prove he was the strongest Sith Lord in the universe you actually further proved my point, the amp that Mace had was nowhere near the amp that Bastila had with star forge, which is MUCH GREATER that Vaapad, and Darth Malak was probably stronger than Dooku plus the star forge.

One -- History showed that Revan was strong willed and able to resist powerful dark energies (such as emitted from Malachor V) as a light user and feed off of dark energies and a dark user.

Two -- Revan knew how Malak fought his style, strengths, and weaknesses.

Three -- The layout of the Star Forge was not unknown to Revan.

Unfortunately Mace has none of those advantages. I cannot not recall history showing Mace being able to resist dark energies emitted from something as powerful as the Star Forge. Remember the Star Forge corrupted a whole race because of the power of the dark energies emitted from it.

I dought Vaapad is the equivalent of the power of a star.

Darth Banes feats are even more incredible then palpatine's seeing as he Destroyed the entire Sith and nearly wiped out all the jedi with just 1 plan. Meaning his stratagies are way better then Sidious.

As for Yoda, Revan was described as the heart of the force and saw beyond the immediate threat that he'd created. He saw that there was a greater threat than what others saw, whilst yoda couldn't even figure out that Palpatine was Darth Sidious. Yoda was the greatest Jedi of his era yes. But an all time second? No not at all. Luke has never seen both sides of the coin. He could never understand the dark side the way that Revan does. Revans knowledge of both sides gives him an extreme advantage over these two amazing Jedi. Not to mention that Revan has never lost a battle either and he also defeated two terentatek single handedly.

1. Obviously there are exceptions to the idea that old jedi are stronger than new ones. But the idea still remains that the older the jedi the stronger. Sidious himself is a representation of this. His clones allowed him to live longer and thus gain more knowledge of the force than his norm life expectancy would allow.

2. Thats not true. He was surprised by Vaders actions and he was not any weaker because he was old. Second that force storm he russerected he did not have complete control over. He admits this himself. How about the Mass shadow generator? Bao-Dur created it but Revan designed the object.

3. Falling to the Darkside and achieving the rank of sith lord and putting the republic as well as the jedi order on the brink of collapse is to different things. Just because you fall to the dark side doesn't mean you know everything about the dark side. Kibh Jeen fell to the darkside, does that make him a master of its properties? No. Revan never made use of electric judgement but he has defeated dark jedi with ability to siphon the life force out of there enemy. When has Luke did that? Luke couldn't even take down a true sith lord without getting extra power.

4. George Lucas has also contradicted himself time and time again. How about we use better arguments than Kreia said this and George Lucas says that hmm?

5.Revan saved the republic as well as the jedi order twice and founded the Second sith empire. The holocrons he created taught Darth Bane what he needed to construct the next sith empire. He also created one of the first assassin droids. (HK-47) Revan is undefeated and a few of the people he has defeated are Bastila (with the power of the star forge), Darth Bandon, and Lord Malak (with the power of the star forge)

Did Luke replace sidious? No. Still not understanding my points. Luke has none of the experience of the dark side as Revan did. Luke has not dwelled in a wound of the force as Revan did. The mass shadow generator was created with revan's intellect and rivals the power of sidious's wormhole. I dont remember a wound in the force being created by force storm.

Bane learned a majority of what he knew about the sith from Revan's holocrons. set. Match. Fights are not governed by force ability, inteligence is required and one persons wide effects on the galaxy. Revan's actions have constantly changed the face of the galaxy, even thousands of years later when his holocrons are discovered. The star forge was the holy grail of darkside power, it fed off of it and produced it. Darkside users gain boosts when there surround by the dark energy. Therefore bastila was that much stronger on the star forge. Bandon was Malak's apprentice. Nuff said. Malak was great and had the power of the star forge combined with the ability to rip the life energy out of anyone. Defeating some that powerful is definitely a feat worthy of putting revan above people such as Bane or Sidious. And just like you said. Sidious has never defeated anyone with that power which is because he cant.

Okay, so if George Lucas says Han Solo can defeat Vader, that means its absolutely true? You can't just say oh the creator says this so its correct and nothing else matters because theres always another side and hes not a god. And george didnt even create Revan so.. yeah.

Taking command of pretty much the entire republic fleet and defeating the mandalorians single-handedly. Stop being so literal with everything. And Being a great tactician does make you better in a 1 0n 1 fight. It means your can access situations quicker and create sufficient responses to attacks and defenses. Revan also privided the means for the destruction of the sith through Darth Bane's might. Has something Palpatine done 3,000 years ago affect the future so greatly? No. and Neither has Luke. For that last part. He fire upon the ship Revan was on and debris crshed on top of him. If luke was in the same position he wouldnt have been able to heal because he would be dead. Not near dead just dead.

This could go anyway. If it came down to light saber duel. Revan would outlast Sidious. There is a problem with newer generation Sith. They were not as battle tested as the Old Republic. The anchient teachings were an everyday thing back in the day which made it easier for Siths a long time ago to learn and master. There were academys back then which taught it all. The teachings today are watered down and harder to come by.

Both were geniuses that had great force potential, and both supposedly mastered both light and dark side powers. I'm more inclined to say that Sidious was smarter, because he managed to manipulate the Republic so well for so long; but Revan was on the verge of completely crushing the republic (as well as on his way to conquering the galaxy) through his sheer cunning and tactical mind. Not to mention it was implied by Kreia that Revan was a necessary evil, purposely donning the guise of Sith lord to lure out the true Sith, making him a double agent; and considering the Sith really wouldn't rise up for another 300 years, kinda makes him more successful in his end goals.

Also your statement with Nihilus is a lie, the exile is the Ying to his Yang no one could resist his life siphoning powers except her or if she was around people. It's not the same as the reaper or Palpatine's kinda like all lighting is not the same and all of them can't be deflected. Nihilus power is the same as that factor nothing can stop it unless your the Exile. If your not the Exile your fate is sealed. Same with the Chosen One regardless of how it went Sidious was going to die to Anakin whether he gained all the power and became the Sith Lord as expected, whether his entire body was broken and his bones depleted, which kinda relates to him being Vader. Even if he was dieing, Sidious end was already in place no matter what. The evidence for this, is the mass amount of force Anakin had as a child, his hand being cut off and him giving a new one, his entire body burned, and needing to rely on a machine to breath. That same machine short circuiting after being doused with lighting, no matter what he was going to die by him.

Revan was such an accomplished individual soldier that the Mandalorians, (who were well on their own way to conquering the Republic) in their fear of him, nicknamed him Revan the Butcher. This was before he sought power as Darth Revan, the time period specified for this discussion. Additionally, as you can see from the holovids, a strike team of 3 Jedi led by Mace Windu was sufficient to subdue Sidious and if not for Darth Vader's intervention he would surely have been destroyed there. Revan was handily defeating 5 Jedi, led by Bastila Shan under the effects of her Battle Meditation and if not for Darth Malak's intervention he would have emerged completely victorious. Revan was physically stronger and faster and was also a master of wielding two lightsabers simultaneously in very aggressive combat.

Sidious has his own strengths over Revan, don't pretend that combat is one of them.

I would only compare Windu to Bastila Shan, and even under Battle Meditation she is not his equal. But with nearly twice as many opponents, who were all seasoned combat veterans under the enhancement of a Force-fueled Battle Meditation... it was definitely a greater overall force than the strike team the defeated Sidious.

However, Yoda was both well past his prime and suffering immensely from the wound in the Force caused by the deaths of the greater part of his Order. Under these circumstances, he isn't really a good judge to go by either.

I am quite certain that there was really no point in Sidious's life where he would have been a match in direct conflict versus Darth Revan. Sidious only defeated his own master through deception and cowardice. He is not a true heir to the Rule of Two. His gifts lie in politics and manipulation, not battle.

(Wouldn't that make Mace Windu the strongest Jedi ever as well? If Anakin hadn't been present he would have beaten the Most Powerful Sith Lord Ever!™ in a duel.)

Besides, most of the Extended Universe (and Sidious own accounts of his own master) would seem to contradict that claim. Though I suppose it depends on how you measure "powerful". Strong in the force? Combat proficiency? Knowledge? Ruthlessness? Political/minipulative skill (power through making others do as you want), ability to actually achieve set goals?

Now hold on just one second Palpatine Fanboys.

First off:

Your talking about the NEC line aren't you?

"Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

Hate to break it to you buds. That lines not G-Canon. Its not even C-Canon. KJA didn't even review the line. The line is the authors (Dan Wallace) personal opinion on Palpatines strength.

The NEC is considered a GUIDE to the Chronology. It doesn't create Canon (Therefore its not considered C-Canon). His opinon is S-Canon based, just as much as yours is.

Second Off:

If thats NOT the line, then show me what statement are you talking about? If your gonna argue with Lucas Says then you'd better provide ATLEAST a quote. G-canon isn't G-canon unless you show GL saying it.

I didn't want to de-credit your statement without being absolutely sure. (So I had to wait 1 day to get my Ep. 3 DVD back from my brother.) I watched chapters 20 - 31 with commentary on (3 times at least), and even re-checked the deleted scenes. George never...ever...said Palpa threw the fight. No one did.

In fact...George specifically says in Chapter 27...

(Which is entitled Mace vs Sidious)

"Okay...Well this sequence...uh...Always started out with Mace...Uh >overpowering< Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part (After Palpatine had already been disarmed, and first attempted to shoot force lightning at Mace.) where he, he pretends to lose his power and be weak, was something that I added later." G-Canon

George tells us he was depicting Mace as OVERPOWERING Palpatine.

Debate over. Mace defeated Sidious in combat.

G-Canon over-rides all. Mace is better with a lightsaber than Palpatine.

And to clear things up even further, Yoda didn't lose to Palpatine. IF ANYTHING, it was a DRAW.

Proof:

1. Palpatine TRIED TO RUN from Yoda. PALPA KNEW HE COULDN'T DEFEAT YODA.

2. Palpatine realized that Yoda was his superior in Lightsaber combat early in the duel. He used RANGED combat against Yoda afterwards. (He couldn't do this in his office against Mace)

3. Also note that this is after 66 occurred. Yoda has just finished feeling the loss of at least (guesstamation) 80% of the Jedi of the Order. Including the lives of children, students, and some of his closest friends. As a Jedi, he can't succumb to Fear (Fear of also dying at the hands of Sidious, fear of seeing the end of ALL JEDI.), or Anger (Revenge on Sidious for all the loved ones he had killed.) And therefore despite the fact he was fighting Palpatine he also had to restrain these emotions of Fear and Anger. And may have even FAILED to do so, and therefore was unable to defeat him due to that.

Confirmed (sith) kills for Revan:

- Dark Jedi master on Taris

- Three Dark Jedi

- Bandon

- Bastila (Defeated)

- Malak

Not much, eh? Still, I'd rank him above RotS Palpatine.

Bandon was the second in a Sith Order of thousands. He was probably the second strongest in the Sith Empire, or at least, he'd have incredible potential.

Bastila was more powerful than Bandon.

Malak was the head honcho in a Sith Empire of thousands where the strongest rule. He would likely be very powerful, probably on Mace's or Dooku's level. He also served as the frontline general in a bloody war. He was more powerful than Council members, because he could control the Star Forge when they could not, and he did best Kavar (leader of the Jedi Guardians, one of the best duelists in the Order). Revan took him down when he had his powers amplified by the Star Forge...

Both were geniuses that had great force potential, and both supposedly mastered both light and dark side powers. I'm more inclined to say that Sidious was smarter, because he managed to manipulate the Republic so well for so long; but Revan was on the verge of completely crushing the republic (as well as on his way to conquering the galaxy) through his sheer cunning and tactical mind. Not to mention it was implied by Kreia that Revan was a necessary evil, purposely donning the guise of Sith lord to lure out the true Sith, making him a double agent; and considering the Sith really wouldn't rise up for another 300 years, kinda makes him more successful in his end goals.

The Rakata mentions Revan frying their scout party with a large force storm. They were in awe of his power.

Anyways, citing specific examples isn't the only way to prove one powerful. 5 years later, people wouldn't be like "Whoa, Revan was so pwnzors when he fought Bandon! He picked up a swoop bike and tossed it around like a tennis ball!".

But 5 years later, people like Handmaiden, Mandalore, Kreia, etc. were all in awe of his combat abilities.

He also killed :

Dark Jedi Master on Manan Killed 4 of them on the Leviathan, killed two Sith Head Masters of the Academy on Korriban and killed the Sith Master in the Rakatan Empire who was the third Most Powerful in the entire Empire 1st Malak 2nd Bastila 3rd Sith Master.

the power of force users in the star wars galaxy have greatly diminished due to the fact that there are constant wars and battles. Knowledge is lost. Palpatine derived most of his power from the extremely potent Kyber crystal he wielded.

Judging from the fact that there is a 3,000 year gap between the rule of Marka Ragnos and Reven, concurrently there is a 4,000 year gap between Reven and Sidous. I believe The most powerful force users 4000 years ago greatly surpasses the greatest force user of ROTS.

the people of Revan's time had seen more wars than the PT people. Same for the guys in the "Jedi vs Sith" era. The point is that the Sith and the Jedi were almost exterminated several times.

The Sith:

- after the first shism

- after the great hyperspace war

- after the last battle of Ruusan

The Jedi:

- Jedi Civil War

- last battle of Ruusan

- Jedi Purge

@liquidnazo: Wait, what the hell? You just copy-pasted your old post and added a bit of extra at the end? Seriously? Besides, I know the mistake you are making - I once made it myself. The simple thing is: In the Battles Forum, feats are the only things that count (don't use defeating featless beings as feats), and provide evidence. That is all that matters. You don't need to go on a rant if you can't support any of it.

I have not seen one quote/scan from you. Until then, the validty of your argument is actually considered to be in a "contested state". I understand some of what you are posting is factual, but really, if you are trying to make a point, lack of evidence does not help. I have been the only one posting any evidence here, and I'm getting tired of replying to somebody who can't utilize evidence properly. It's getting frustrating because it isn't a debate.

About Revan, yes it is not much - so much of it is featless. No, he isn't above Palpatine, if you had bothered to read my post - and it appears you haven't even read the Revan novel - which has all his on-panel feats to be used in the Battles forum, and you are making the mistake of saying he is undefeatable, since he was actually defeated pretty easily by Vitiate (the Sith Emperor). Note that this was Revan in his prime, and the Sith Emperor defeats him. Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord, so even that form of logic, as much as it is looked down upon, already proves Palpatine's superiority.

What you believe is irrelevant if it is already stated in canon. Things don't have to be G-Canon to be canon, especially because Lucas has both consistently changed his mind and has not explored everything. He himself admits this.

Also, I thought I already addressed the common misconception of older Jedi/Sith being more powerful? Yoda was the most powerful Jedi up to his time, Luke the most powerful of all time, and Sidious the most powerful Sith of all time. The Jedi Order of the PT era is stated to be the "golden age of the Jedi", meaning that overall the order was at its peak (though some individuals were obviously stronger than select individuals at this time).

@shootingnova: hey mybad I wasn't repasting I wasn't finished with my argument. Also I understand where your coming from. I didn't call you biased I was calling the other guy biased because when I was reading awhile back he kelp saying force storm, but you gave me info I didn't know about. I actually wanted you to keep posting scans because I was enjoying the story and the new information. This is my very first debate on here so don't just think i'm trolling. I'm used to arguing with annoying trolls on youtube. But it's very different on here some of the arguments are very intelligent. Thankyou for the knowledge. I'll let you have this one but I don't think Palpatine is the strongest of all time.

But then again I have noticed there are some very biased people on here aswell. I guess I was going most off of his legend, then his feats because at the end of the day that's all he really has.

Darth Sidious>>>>>>>>>Darth Nihilus>Darth Bane>>Revan.

@dccomicsrule2011: Starkiller >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Palpatine >>>>>>>>>>> JediXMan>> You

@liquidnazo: I highly doubt you were in any position to be calling anybody "biased", you stood at perhaps the most biased point of view - you didn't even use the only source with Revan's actual feats - his novel.

It's alright to ask people for information, but you obviously should not be doing so behind red herrings and conjecture slapped together for a loose argument.....

And Palpatine is not the most powerful Force user ever - he is the most powerful Sith ever. Luke Skywalker, the Ones of Mortis, Abeloth and presumably the Bedlam Spirits are more powerful than him.

Dude will you shut up, I already let you have the argument, and your still bashing. Shut up.

@liquidnazo:

I wasn't even talking about the debate - I was telling you what you did wrong, and the Palpatine issue was really just a remark on your inability to accept facts.

If you are seriously unable to get people to stop talking aside from just running around and screaming "shut up", then you are as bad as "those people on Youtube".

No I already admitted to my mistake and you kelp bashing me for the same thing I just owned up to. That is not a respectful debate, that is stupidity in the fullest. you just tried to kick me while I was down, when I peacefully walked away from you. You honestly don't think I'm going to tell you to shut up.... Like really.. you honestly don't think you deserved that.

Shots fired

LOL... that is not "bashing/kicking" anybody (how was I kicking you down when my tone wasn't even remotely aggressive)...... there are people who are much harsher, and if I were one of them I would have simply told you to learn to accept facts or potentially raged at you. By the way, you haven't accepted your mistake - which was the inability to accept facts. It's the battle forum, and in any case, increasing these hostilities aren't going to do anything much. I was not attempting to kick you down at all when you surrendered, I accepted that but you couldn't stand me making a remark on how you couldn't accept facts.

Regardless of our differing opinions, I think we should simply stop this now... you obviously don't want me floating around and I don't like your pessimistic/half-trolling attitude, if anything I was addressing the public as much as you. I already accepted your concession, but I just can't stand people's inability to accept facts. It may very well by my personal characteristic flaw, which everybody has, but I don't think you want me rambling on anymore.... so I'll just end this right here.

This is ridiculous.

Palpatine is, and likely always will be, the most powerful Sith. There's really no point in debating it.

And... thinking Revan would ever beat Palpatine... hah, yeah, right. He's the weakest one here (I am a fan of Revan, for the record).

I'd actually like to point out that your first post in this thread was outright hostile. You called the most respected Star Wars expert (Silver) bias.

Sorry, but you're automatically going to get a lot of flak for that.

@shootingnova: Oh okay, well I don't know I'm probably not as intelligent as you in these situations. But when you it explain it like that I see where your coming from. Well I appologies, I thought you were just trying to be hostile.