Scenario: Exar Kun is searching for ancient Sith texts left behind on Ziost. Darth Nihilus, alerted to his Force sensitivity, decides to scour the planet for him personally and exits his ship to confront Kun. Believing Exar to simply be another dark sider to feed on, Nihilus attacks to steal his energies, while Exar is determined to preserve the Sith secrets there and fights back.
Rules:
Nihilus is well-fed.
This is TotJ Exar Kun; JA Exar will not be a usable form.
Standard equipment for both. Exar has his double-bladed lightsaber and Sith talismans; Nihilus has his lightsaber.
Morals apply.
Random encounter. No prep or knowledge of the other.
Well, the close proximity could give Exar Kun an edge, since Nihilus really has very few feats for lightsaber dueling.
An important factor, though, is that Kun cannot survive the encounter and Nihilus can. Exar Kun required a ritual to initialize Essence Transfer - though we have no proof that Nihilus didn't at first, either. But Nihilus is a spirit; nothing more.
Do we know what a fully fed Nihilus can do? All we've seen is him at his weakest, since that's the only time he makes his presence known. But in this state, he proved capable of draining an entire planet of life.
The Jedi in me wants Nihilus to win, but the Sith in me wants Kun to win. Becuase obviously Nihilus wouldn't care as much about preserving Sith Knowledge.
Anyway, in a lightsaber and normal Force power (TK, Lightning, etc.) fight I would say Exar Kun would easily win, especially given the close proximity of this fight. However, I feel that Nihilus' Force draining ability could possibly overwhelm Kun. It is my understanding that the Exile was only able to resist his power becuase of her unique circumstances (her Force link to Kreia, and being dead to the Force).
@JediXMan: I had forgotten Exar Kun's Essence Transfer, but like you said I doubt he would get it to work on such short notice.
" Well, the close proximity could give Exar Kun an edge, since Nihilus really has very few feats for lightsaber dueling.
I wanted to set the scenario so that the starting distance is close enough that they could engage in a duel but far enough away that they could simply attack each other from a distance as well. Kun has shown before that when he intends to eliminate an enemy quickly, as opposed to utilizing his skills dueling them, he can simply attack them telekinetically or use his Force Blasts. To be honest, with this setup and with his intention to protect Sith scrolls from a possible thief, I think he may resort to a ranged attack first. In that case, he might use Force Push or Blast. Exar's telekinetic feats were never very high quality, but he has shown some moderate power in that area. The example that comes to mind specifically is when he knocked Sylvar a good distance away with a casual Push (scan below). If he attempted this against Nihilus, however, it may prove ineffective because of Nihilus' incorporeal form. So supposing Exar even attempted this in the first place, it may not be very useful.
Now if Exar did try this, Nihilus should be able to shrug it off without much trouble. It might cause him to flinch, at best. I do think that Kun would land the first strike though, as he has more speed feats than Nihilus does. All we really see from him is using Force Jump to perform various acrobatic lightsaber strikes in the duel against the Exile in KOTOR II, details which may simply be classified as N-Canon game mechanics. With Exar though, he did show some good combat speed when he dueled Vodo Baas as his lightsaber was generating afterimages behind it as he swung it toward Master Vodo's Weaponized staff. Baas appeared to be using Burst of Speed as well since the same afterimages can be seen from his weapon, meaning Kun brought swiftness to the duel but also staved off Vodo's combat speed.
That being the case, I would bet on him landing the first hit and possibly the second also. Presuming that Exar chose a telekinetic burst to try to hurl Nihilus away, and even if this failed (which it probably would), Kun still has his Force Blasts. Now, it is debatable as to what would happen to Nihilus were his robes and armor destroyed or removed. It could be that Nihilus could simply use Spirit Transference to enter another body nearby (namely Kun) or possibly an inanimate object, as that was, of course, what he possessed before. If he has a fair amount of Force energies, this might be plausible as I believe, from the KOTOR campaign guide, that his energy intake may be related to his Essence Transfer. This is inconclusive, since the full details of his transferring his Essence are vague due to being off-panel though. That I know, Nihilus never learned Force Deflection or Absorption; so he may have difficulty defending against Force Blast. He might use Jump, but with the radius of the beam, dodging the Blast is probably not a very likely outcome. If Kun can land a hit with this, I see no way for the energy to harm Nihilus' spirit, but it should impact with sufficient force to knock him back and very probably damage his armor, as in his first usage of the Blast through his Sith gauntlets, Exar killed one of Naga Sadow's dark side beasts, killed several of the Massassi, and visibly damaged one of the temple walls.
If Exar lands a hit with this (and this is provided he does use Force Blast and forsakes the option to simply charge head-first into a duel of course), this could give him an opportunity to move in for a close-quarter assault with his lightsaber; tear Nihilus' armor, revealing that there is no physical form within, which could show Exar that dueling a walking ghost would be useless; and if nothing else, just give him an upper hand in opportunity to use anything else at his disposal.
An important factor, though, is that Kun cannot survive the encounter and Nihilus can. Exar Kun required a ritual to initialize Essence Transfer - though we have no proof that Nihilus didn't at first, either. But Nihilus is a spirit; nothing more.
Nihilus has no body to injure or kill, very true.
Do we know what a fully fed Nihilus can do? All we've seen is him at his weakest, since that's the only time he makes his presence known. But in this state, he proved capable of draining an entire planet of life. "
I only said "well-fed" as opposed to fully fed (even if the difference between those is just in the semantics of words). Was Nihilus weakened when he Drained Katarr? I never remember that being mentioned in Unseen, Unheard. It could be theorized though, since logically he would feed if he is being weakened by his own hunger.
It was the following that allowed the Exile to win:
1. Her unique place in the Force 2. Nihilus' lack of strength due to the fact that he wasted energy going to Telos - a place without Force sensitive. 3. Visas' connection to Nihilus, which she used against him.
" The Jedi in me wants Nihilus to win, but the Sith in me wants Kun to win. Becuase obviously Nihilus wouldn't care as much about preserving Sith Knowledge.
Anyway, in a lightsaber and normal Force power (TK, Lightning, etc.) fight I would say Exar Kun would easily win, especially given the close proximity of this fight. However, I feel that Nihilus' Force draining ability could possibly overwhelm Kun. It is my understanding that the Exile was only able to resist his power becuase of her unique circumstances (her Force link to Kreia, and being dead to the Force).
@JediXMan: I had forgotten Exar Kun's Essence Transfer, but like you said I doubt he would get it to work on such short notice. "
Stick around for the rest of the debate. Your points and questions will be covered when we get there.
Exar Kun is definitely a better lightsaber duelist. Nihilus isn't the type to get into those kinds of fight - in fact, I always wondered why he even had a lightsaber in the first place. But even if he did kill Nihilus with a lightsaber strike (though I don't see him standing there while Kun attacks him), that wouldn't be the end of it. Nihilus can't be so easily killed, but he can be banished to Chaos. Kun, on the other hand, is still a physical being.
I have no doubt that Exar would land the first hit; mostly because Nihilus does not care. The man has a bigger God Complex than most Sith Lords, I think. Nihilus views all life as beneath him - which, honestly, they are. He probably wouldn't even recognize Kun unless Kun gave him reason.
Of course, did he not start off with putting the Exile and company in stasis? That part wasn't gameplay. The dialogue of the characters shows that this was indeed part of the story.
I always wondered how exactly Nihilus possessed his armor. As you said, the comment is very vague. But since armor is a series of components and not just one object that can be taken over, it could be theorized that he "fills" his armor with his spirit. I wonder, though: was there anything in his armor? Perhaps a husk of his former self?
I assumed he was weak in Unseen, Unheard since he has no reason to feed otherwise. Kinda like Galactus. And Nihilus was weak when he went to Telos - mostly because of the energy it took to travel. I believe they said he fed once every month or something like that. So he would wait until the last moment before going to his next meal, because that would leave him backwards.
I feel like I have high school diploma in Star Wars. You know decent knowledge, and then you guys... wel you guy have doctorates. I've read over a dozen of the novels, played a lot of the games, and if I don't have personal knowledge on the subject I'll double check the online encyclopedias that I use. I give it some honest thought and throw my answer out there. Then what happens? Four minutes Silver lays out a forum busting post with scans no less. I try. Oh well, it's more fun to watch you two go back and forth anyway lol.
" @Silver2467: I always wondered how exactly Nihilus possessed his armor. As you said, the comment is very vague. But since armor is a series of components and not just one object that can be taken over, it could be theorized that he "fills" his armor with his spirit. I wonder, though: was there anything in his armor? Perhaps a husk of his former self? "
he possesed his mask, not his armor.
i vote for nihilus who's purpose is to feed. he simply wants to drain the sith lord. Exar kun would try to make some sort of mockery before the fight and that alone would kill him.
Exar Kun is definitely a better lightsaber duelist. Nihilus isn't the type to get into those kinds of fight - in fact, I always wondered why he even had a lightsaber in the first place. But even if he did kill Nihilus with a lightsaber strike (though I don't see him standing there while Kun attacks him), that wouldn't be the end of it. Nihilus can't be so easily killed, but he can be banished to Chaos. Kun, on the other hand, is still a physical being.
I agree with this. However, when I brought up the points of Exar gaining the chance to wreck Nihilus' armor and possibly showing what he really is (even if the armor is only partially dismantled), Kun would come the realization of what it is he really combats. It is also possible that Exar could simply extend his senses through the Force to sense Nihilus' circumstance as not existing as a bodily entity. He was able to search through the Force to detect Aleema across the galaxy when he intended to find the dark siders in the Empress Teta system. Kun has few showings with Farseeing, Sense, and the like, but he does appear to have them. Nihilus may also just end up on the defensive in a duel if Exar rushes him and have parts of his armor slashed away. Whichever of these occurs or if a combination of them does, Exar can see Nihilus for what he truly is. You have to remember Freedon Nadd. Once Exar grew tired of him after blasting apart the interior of the Massassi Temple, he proved that his Sith gauntlets have the capacity to purge a Sith Essence and then force them into Chaos. This is an endgame that could result in Kun winning over Nihilus.
Now of course, this situation requires that Exar understand that Nihilus is only an Essence, but as I described above, he has methods of discovering that.
I have no doubt that Exar would land the first hit; mostly because Nihilus does not care. The man has a bigger God Complex than most Sith Lords, I think.
This is also a factor in addition to Exar's speed. Thanks for enhancing my case. :P
Nihilus views all life as beneath him - which, honestly, they are.
No argument there.
He probably wouldn't even recognize Kun unless Kun gave him reason. Of course, did he not start off with putting the Exile and company in stasis? That part wasn't gameplay. The dialogue of the characters shows that this was indeed part of the story.
Interesting point. I had forgot about that. Strange that Nihilus would use a power such as Force Stasis since that is a light side power, I believe. He did use Force Sever, which is also a light side power, but the KOTOR campaign guide made it seem as though Nihilus "drained Traya's Force sensitivity," at least in my interpretation of it. That could explain why he used a light side ability, since it would be a more corrupted form of it. But as to your issue of Force Stasis, this power has few actual showings. An example would be when Hoth froze a dark Jedi in place during one of the Battles of Ruusan (I forget which; it might have been the third). From what I gather about it though, Stasis is harder to use against other powerful Force sensitives (all Force powers are, but anyway). Now it is impressive that Nihilus could do this to three beings simultaneously (unless Canderous never challenged Nihlus with Visas and the Exile), two of them being Force sensitives. In accordance with what you said about Nihilus simply not caring about attacking first, he might not use this though. If he did, Exar would be greatly disadvantaged. He might be able to break out by firing his Blasts or possibly by trying to affect Nihilus telepathically (cover more on that later). However, the odds of him using this power against Exar are not entirely the same as with the Exile and Visas though because Nihilus had prior knowledge and acquaintance with them and recognized them as an unwanted threat.
I always wondered how exactly Nihilus possessed his armor. As you said, the comment is very vague. But since armor is a series of components and not just one object that can be taken over, it could be theorized that he "fills" his armor with his spirit. I wonder, though: was there anything in his armor? Perhaps a husk of his former self?
Probably right about him containing multiple parts constituting a whole. I doubt there was any remnant of his body in the armor though, since the campaign guide said that his body disintegrated when he used Essence Transfer. There might have been something there though. Maybe a Sith artifact of some kind. All of this is merely conjecture though, which is frustrating as it would be easier to see how this would affect the match if we knew what the details surrounding his Spirit Transference were.
I assumed he was weak in Unseen, Unheard since he has no reason to feed otherwise. Kinda like Galactus. And Nihilus was weak when he went to Telos - mostly because of the energy it took to travel. I believe they said he fed once every month or something like that. So he would wait until the last moment before going to his next meal, because that would leave him backwards. "
That makes sense. Not sure if I would say he was as weak as he was when he arrived at Telos though, because I believe he had not fed in around a year (or some time frame near that level). Even when he traveled to Telos though, Nihilus still planned to feed on the entire planet, only to find out he was tricked into coming there, but the fact that he could Drain on that level while that weakened is a testament to his power.
@JediXMan: but darth krayt was an idiot. ARG! ok i print a retraction. i just did my research and ideed it WAS his armor AND mask (which is techinically part of his armor).
I feel like I have high school diploma in Star Wars. You know decent knowledge, and then you guys... wel you guy have doctorates. I've read over a dozen of the novels, played a lot of the games, and if I don't have personal knowledge on the subject I'll double check the online encyclopedias that I use. I give it some honest thought and throw my answer out there. Then what happens? Four minutes Silver lays out a forum busting post with scans no less. I try. Oh well, it's more fun to watch you two go back and forth anyway lol.
"
LOL. Well, I made this thread specifically for XMan and myself to debate this.
Hmm. I had forgotten about Freedon Nadd. However, Nadd was more of a "free spirit," if you will. He was bound to a place, not an object. Now if, somehow, he "killed" Nihilus and his spirit had to leave, then perhaps that would work.
Hey, I can concede that Exar would get the first hit.
What is a light side power? What is a dark side power? Is it the technique or the person that uses it? Is it the powers you use or the reasons in which you use them? Nihilus doesn't care about such things. He just uses whatever techniques that suit him. And personally, I don't like to see powers as being mutually exclusive. Let me ask you: a Jedi Knight uses Force lightning to kill thugs that are attacking an innocent family. A Sith uses Stasis to paralyze a helpless victim so he can be ripped apart by a rancor. Which is good, and which is evil? Light or dark? I think it's not a matter of the powers you use, but why and how you use them.
But yes, Force Sever traditionally is a "light side power" because it uses a wall of light to cut someone off from the Force. Of course, Kreia did the same thing. Perhaps for dark siders, it could be trapping them in eternal darkness, since Kreia was capable of using it to deny Jedi Masters from becoming one with the Force after death.
Nihilus is one of the most interesting and mysterious Sith Lords. Part of me would like for them to expand on his life, but perhaps it's best left as a mystery.
No, he wouldn't be as weak as he was at Telos. The Jedi were mostly gone, so it was hard for him to get a decent meal.
" @Silver2467: Hmm. I had forgotten about Freedon Nadd. However, Nadd was more of a "free spirit," if you will. He was bound to a place, not an object. Now if, somehow, he "killed" Nihilus and his spirit had to leave, then perhaps that would work.
Nadd was able to roam freely because his Essence was resurrected from Chaos (how in the world the Sith alchemists in the Iziz royal family managed that, I have no idea). He was able to lead Kun from Dxun to Korriban to Yavin, and he still conversed with the Keto brats in the Empress Teta system. Nadd is one of those "special cases" you and I have talked about (several times). When he was directing Exar, he never seemed to be bonded to anything. In one way or another, Nihilus is also a "free spirit," as you said, because he could travel of his own free will, but he did that simply by anchoring his Essence to his armor. Nihilus is a special case as well because of his need to absorb Force energies to sustain his spirit, but aside from that, I see no real difference between him and Nadd. Nihilus' Essence may have used more technical powers than Freedon's did, but Nadd's spirit was not without interaction with the physical world either (he collapsed a tomb on Kun, healed him, restricted his Force powers, etc.). I could see the issue in that Nihilus may simply be more powerful than Nadd was. Little is known about Nadd's power while he was alive; all we really know is that he defeated his Jedi masters, studied under Naga Sadow's Essence, banished Sadow's Essence to Chaos when he finished, and took over the entire planet of Onderon using the dark side. However, if Exar could eliminate Nadd's spirit before he even reached his full power in the dark side (since his first exploits on Yavin were while he was a novice in the dark side and had yet to research many Sith scrolls), he should be capable of doing the same to Nihilus, especially since it can be argued that Exar can resist Force Drain, thus possibly weakening Nihilus. It is hypothetically possible that Exar can resist Force Drain for the following reasons: 1) He knew Drain himself. During his ritual for Transfer Essence, he fed on the life energies of thousands of Massassi warriors. He was a very skillful user of this ability, and that could merit a comprehension of a resistance to it. 2) The Dark Reaper. Ulic Qel-Droma taught Anakin an immunity to draining effects so that he could fight the Dark Reaper. Tyranus learned one also so that he could use the Dark Reaper (he may have learned it from Palpatine; not completely sure). If Ulic was aware of how to remain unscathed by that power, it shouldn't be a huge stretch that Kun would as well, especially since he demonstrated that power. I think Kun may actually be able to shield himself from Nihilus' draining powers.
What is a light side power? What is a dark side power? Is it the technique or the person that uses it? Is it the powers you use or the reasons in which you use them? Nihilus doesn't care about such things. He just uses whatever techniques that suit him. And personally, I don't like to see powers as being mutually exclusive. Let me ask you: a Jedi Knight uses Force lightning to kill thugs that are attacking an innocent family. A Sith uses Stasis to paralyze a helpless victim so he can be ripped apart by a rancor. Which is good, and which is evil? Light or dark? I think it's not a matter of the powers you use, but why and how you use them.
I concur on the points of Nihilus just not caring, but I disagree with your analogy. For instance, Plo Koon used a form of Lightning to incapacitate a criminal who was kidnapping a young girl. But he never did this through the dark side, and because of that, he essentially created a new power, Electric Judgment. Luke has used dark side powers before (Choke, Dark Rage), but he was coming dangerously close to becoming a dark sider himself. You have a point about why and how these abilities are used, but they can and very likely will draw you closer to one end of the spectrum or the other.
But this is off-topic.
But yes, Force Sever traditionally is a "light side power" because it uses a wall of light to cut someone off from the Force. Of course, Kreia did the same thing. Perhaps for dark siders, it could be trapping them in eternal darkness, since Kreia was capable of using it to deny Jedi Masters from becoming one with the Force after death.
Well, as I said, it could be that Nihilus just "drained" the Force sensitivity out of her. Maybe Traya did the same thing. Although, with Traya, she could care less about the light or dark side either because her goal was to destroy the Force (which is an extremely poorly conceived plan). She also used Force Heal, for instance.
Nihilus is one of the most interesting and mysterious Sith Lords. Part of me would like for them to expand on his life, but perhaps it's best left as a mystery. No, he wouldn't be as weak as he was at Telos. The Jedi were mostly gone, so it was hard for him to get a decent meal. "
Sorry; I'm rather preoccupied. I apologize if some things don't come out quite the way I mean them.
For Freedom Nadd, I meant in the way he traveled. But he did seem restricted to areas with a dark side aura, in some way or another. We don't know how much Nihilus could really travel or for how far. Palpatine traveled between star systems. Nihilus' feat is - as we've said - vague in how far reaching his abilities are. Hmm. Good call on the drain powers. But Nihilus' telekinetic powers should be mentioned. He was capable of lifting a shattered capital ship off of a broken planet. It didn't even appear to be functional; he just held it together through his own sheer force of will. And if it was not functional, then he actually was cause of the ship's travel through hyperspace, as well as a source of life for his minions on the ship.
Nadd and other Sith of old don't have many real feats under their belts, because they're... how shall I put this? Dead. They are dead in almost everything that they appear in. A shame, really. I still desire a novel dedicated to ancient Sith Lords. Specifically, I want a novel about the Hundred Year Darkness.
My analogy is a debatable one, one that even characters discuss in the EU. Perhaps it is what emotions the user is feeling during the use of those powers. I guess I am being influenced by the Republic Commando books that I've reading right now, which discuss this concept - particularly that the Jedi during the time of the Clone Wars were corrupt. But yes, we're getting off topic.
Could be. It was a rather unlikely plan, but not impossible. She saw Nihilus and the Exile as living examples that the Force could be wounded.
" @Silver2467: Sorry; I'm rather preoccupied. I apologize if some things don't come out quite the way I mean them.
No problem.
For Freedom Nadd, I meant in the way he traveled. But he did seem restricted to areas with a dark side aura, in some way or another.
Hm. I never noticed that before. I always had a preconceived notion that Nadd could simply fly between different planets on a whim after he was brought out of Chaos, but you raise a very good point about there being dark side energies present wherever he traveled. Dxun, Korriban, Yavin. None of them, except maybe Korriban, have a Force nexus on them, but they are imbued with Force energies nonetheless. The Empress Teta system may have simply collected a number of dark side energies as a result of the Ketos' dark side practices. I admit, I never saw that connection.
We don't know how much Nihilus could really travel or for how far. Palpatine traveled between star systems. Nihilus' feat is - as we've said - vague in how far reaching his abilities are.
At the very least, Nihilus traveled from Katarr to Telos, and the likelihood that he visited other worlds besides them is high. So interplanetary distances, I would say.
Hmm. Good call on the drain powers.
This is why I think Exar can beat Nihilus. It really has nothing to do with how powerful he is. Kun is more versatile, skillful, and intelligent than Nihilus, while Nihilus is just a freaking powerhouse with no real purpose to aim his Force potency at other than simply drawing on life energies. The reason I think Kun can win is because he has an answer to Nihilus' best offense (Drain) and his best defense (spiritual existence). In terms of raw power, I would favor Nihilus by a good margin. Exar just has the proper tricks in his arsenal to deal with him.
But Nihilus' telekinetic powers should be mentioned. He was capable of lifting a shattered capital ship off of a broken planet. It didn't even appear to be functional; he just held it together through his own sheer force of will. And if it was not functional, then he actually was cause of the ship's travel through hyperspace, as well as a source of life for his minions on the ship.
This is a good point. However, he never seemed to use this telekinetic power in combat very much. Now, to be fair, Nihilus hardly has any combat showings, which is a legitimate reason for that, another being that the duel with Nihilus is, by and large, game mechanics, but at the same time, he seemed to prefer to just absorb a life force and be done with it. The way I see it, Kun should land the first hit (and another after that, depending on how much he staggers Nihilus). When Nihilus does attack, more than likely he will either use Drain or use Stasis and then Drain. Once Drain fails though, as I believe it will, that could create an opening for Exar to defeat Nihilus. Not to suggest that Nihilus' TK abilities are a non-factor, but with morals on (if you can call what Exar and Nihilus have "morals"), stealing Kun's Force energies will be Nihilus' first and foremost inclination. As we have agreed upon, Exar should hit first which could also reduce the opportunities Nihilus has to unleash any telekinetic barrages, on top of his draining preference.
Nadd and other Sith of old don't have many real feats under their belts, because they're... how shall I put this? Dead. They are dead in almost everything that they appear in. A shame, really. I still desire a novel dedicated to ancient Sith Lords. Specifically, I want a novel about the Hundred Year Darkness.
Agreed, once again.
My analogy is a debatable one, one that even characters discuss in the EU. Perhaps it is what emotions the user is feeling during the use of those powers. I guess I am being influenced by the Republic Commando books that I've reading right now, which discuss this concept - particularly that the Jedi during the time of the Clone Wars were corrupt. But yes, we're getting off topic.
True. The NJO series also spent a fair amount of time extrapolating what the difference between the light and dark side is or if they really exist at all.
Could be. It was a rather unlikely plan, but not impossible. She saw Nihilus and the Exile as living examples that the Force could be wounded. "
I have thought of viewing it as they were wounded in the Force, rather than the Force itself was wounded. The distinction between those is subtle but apparent when you grasp what I mean. Now the classification for Force sensitives like them is a "wound in the Force," which fits. But I never thought it possible to actually annihilate the Force altogether.
No, no. I meant how far Nihilus could travel in his spiritual form. We know he traveled to planets through hyperspace by controlling the Ravager.
Fair enough. But does Nihilus use drain offensively, or is it just on? He automatically drains all in his presence and drains planets when he is intent on feeding.
Yes, much of it was game mechanics. The only portion that wouldn't be would be the parts where there was dialogue, and I believe that generally occurred after Nihilus used a form of telekinesis to drive them back. But yes, it's hard to say when Nihilus has no combative feats.
Or perhaps Kreia wanted to cut the universe off from the Force, rather than destroy it? Just a thought. The Exile cut herself off from the Force in order to shield herself from the carnage of Malachor V. Perhaps Kreia just wanted to remove whatever factor allowed life to interact with the Force. Causing a universe-wide event like Malachor would do this; Force users would either become like the Exile (cut off) or like Nihilus. If they all became like Nihilus, they would just keep feeding on each other until they wiped each other out. Pure speculation, of course.
No, no. I meant how far Nihilus could travel in his spiritual form. We know he traveled to planets through hyperspace by controlling the Ravager.
Ah. Not sure on that. That I know of, he never has. If he transferred his Essence into his armor, then that would be a short gap to travel. Without his armor, purely as an Essence, there is no determining information on that.
Fair enough. But does Nihilus use drain offensively, or is it just on? He automatically drains all in his presence and drains planets when he is intent on feeding.
The way I see it, it has elements of both. His hunger and his status as a wound in the Force compel him to siphon life energies consistently, without any real pause or hesitation, but he can expand that draining intentionally as well. That was how I understood it, anyway. In my opinion, it should be irrelevant whether he decides to use Drain or does so subconsciously because Visas, a character who survived/resisted his Drain, was near him often and, while under his influence, was never killed by the effects. As it should be within Exar's power to withstand Drain, I believe he will be unaffected whether Nihilus uses Drain instinctively or combatively.
Yes, much of it was game mechanics. The only portion that wouldn't be would be the parts where there was dialogue, and I believe that generally occurred after Nihilus used a form of telekinesis to drive them back. But yes, it's hard to say when Nihilus has no combative feats.
Alright. That makes sense then, although if he did use a telekinetic Push or Wave to repel the Exile and her allies, they did walk away from that. It could be that Nihilus was simply too weakened to hit them full force though.
Or perhaps Kreia wanted to cut the universe off from the Force, rather than destroy it? Just a thought. The Exile cut herself off from the Force in order to shield herself from the carnage of Malachor V. Perhaps Kreia just wanted to remove whatever factor allowed life to interact with the Force. Causing a universe-wide event like Malachor would do this; Force users would either become like the Exile (cut off) or like Nihilus. If they all became like Nihilus, they would just keep feeding on each other until they wiped each other out. Pure speculation, of course. "
I'm just doubting that Nihilus would use drain right off. If drain is as trivial as I believe Nihilus would see it as, why would he seek that method above others? Now I concede the point that Exar may be immune to Nihilus' effects, but would that be Nihilus' go-to power during the confrontation? I think he would use other techniques first.
They walked away, but as you said, he was very weak. And it's a good feat. The Exile is (supposedly) a powerful Force user in her own right, and Visas.... well she's another Force user who is around Knight level. But it's not that easy to simply toss aside an enemy when they are engaged in conflict. As you know, all Force users have a protective field that automatically protects them from some attacks. The Exile and Visas were concentrating on Nihilus, and they still fell victim to it - and if memory serves, his move was little more than a gesture.
" @Silver2467: I'm just doubting that Nihilus would use drain right off. If drain is as trivial as I believe Nihilus would see it as, why would he seek that method above others? Now I concede the point that Exar may be immune to Nihilus' effects, but would that be Nihilus' go-to power during the confrontation? I think he would use other techniques first.
To be honest, Nihilus only has so many confirmed powers to begin with. From what we saw, he has TK, Drain, and Stasis. I really see no reason for him to attempt anything else if the entire reason he disembarked on Ziost was to steal Exar's Force energies. Also, using Drain was his original course of action when the Exile challenged him; it just failed against her because of the characteristics she has in relation to the Force. Now, if I remember correctly, he encased the Exile's party in Stasis first (as you reminded me of on the previous page), but Force Drain was still the primary and governing aspect of his attack. It could be that once Drain fails against Kun, Nihilus may simply resort to some other power (he may know Lightning, but the cutscene in which that was shown was omitted; so not sure on that), but if he is as surprised and reeling as he was when the Exile resisted his Drain, then Exar could move in for a counterattack (and we both agree that Kun has greater combat speed after all).
They walked away, but as you said, he was very weak. And it's a good feat. The Exile is (supposedly) a powerful Force user in her own right, and Visas.... well she's another Force user who is around Knight level. But it's not that easy to simply toss aside an enemy when they are engaged in conflict. As you know, all Force users have a protective field that automatically protects them from some attacks. The Exile and Visas were concentrating on Nihilus, and they still fell victim to it - and if memory serves, his move was little more than a gesture. "
Supposing you are correct about Nihilus opting for a power separate from Drain once he has the chance to strike (since, again, Exar should hit first for reasons we already addressed), is his TK that powerful in a fight? One thing I remembered just now is that despite Nihilus being weakened at Telos, he was still supporting the Ravager. It could be that the ship remained structurally secure even without his Force ability holding it together, but that could be argued. For one, in Unseen, Unheard and in KOTOR II, there are many obvious wreckages, holes, and system breaks in Nihilus' ship. It may have been resurrected from the battle fields on Malachor through the Force, but it was not fully rebuilt. If the components of his ship are sound in place without Nihilus' intervention to grip them together though, does it fly on its own? Or does he guide the ship through space using the Force? Because if the Ravager does mandate that Nihilus offer it sustenance through the Force and/or is flown by his power, then his weakness at Telos would be irrelevant to his Telekinesis. He would still possess the same amount of power in that area in spite of his condition, which means that the Exile and her allies stood up from a TK blast. As you said, it was not of much substantial effort on Nihilus' part when he did this, but the extent of his telekinetic powers may not be as evident as they seem to be. Maybe when it was said that he "resurrected his ship through the Force," it was of alchemical nature. Again, this does come down to speculation, but I would like to reason as to how he could have that enough telekinetic power to lift and hold together capital ships and yet be insufficient to defeat a few enemies. As to your point about Force Aura, I think that defends the user from having their lightsaber affected more than anything else. That I know of, you have to actually learn a Force Resistance to TK powers, just as you would any other. If you remember, in Dark Empire 2, Luke said he could shrug off Force Choke as the Dark Side Adepts used that against him and Kam, and he attributed that to learning a technique that allowed him to resist it.
Personally, I am thinking of Nihilus' TK over any of his other supposed powers. But from what I've seen, his powers would be:
Telepathy (may or may not be his source of communication with people like Visas - of course, he and Visas had a bond) Force Corruption (he corrupted all in his presence, including Colonel Tobin and all of his slaves) Force concealment (this is probable, as nobody knew where he was. I believe Visas said that nobody can find him) Sever Force (which we have discussed) Telekinesis (and some variations thereof, such as choke, which really doesn't matter here - and I better not see somebody call this a game changer) Drain Stasis Lightning (possibly. As you said, this was cut, and therefore the continuity is ambiguous. I would call it S-Canon, for it has not been disputed. Other cut material have been stated as canon, such as the HK-50s series) Essence Transfer
Or perhaps Nihilus was also weak because he was holding the ship together. Or maybe it is held together on its own when grounded, but while flying or in space it requires Nihilus' concentration. Therefore, since this fight is on the ground, his attention may not be on keeping his ship together. Also, it's worth mentioning that the ship had many holes within it, gaps leading to the raw vacuum of space. So I wonder: how were people not sucked out of the ship and how was there oxygen on the ship? Perhaps he actually encased the ship in a field of his own making.
Also, I would like to exam this quote from Captain Tobin, aboard the ship:
"This ship… is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet… that is a measure of his power."
It mentions the ship as his "weakness." Others called it that, as well, which is why they put explosives on the ship - but they didn't detonate the ship until after his defeat. Perhaps they knew that it required his attention?
It also mentions the fleet that accompanied him to Telos, too, were resurrected from the surface of Malachor. If the Ravager is any example of what the ships were like after the battle of Malachor, then they should all be in a similar state. Therefore, does he control those ships, as well? Does he hold them together?
Personally, I am thinking of Nihilus' TK over any of his other supposed powers. But from what I've seen, his powers would be:
Telepathy (may or may not be his source of communication with people like Visas - of course, he and Visas had a bond)
All Force sensitives have Force Telepathy to one degree or another. So I agree with this.
Force Corruption (he corrupted all in his presence, including Colonel Tobin and all of his slaves)
He corrupted those in his presence? I thought he simply drained them.
Force concealment (this is probable, as nobody knew where he was. I believe Visas said that nobody can find him)
Maybe. Visas' comment about the virtual impossibility of locating Nihilus may have had to do with his constant travel aboard the Ravager though. It could also be a result of him being a would in the Force.
Sever Force (which we have discussed)
Agreed. Although based on the description, I still believe this may have a link to his Drain, possibly as a different application of it.
Telekinesis (and some variations thereof, such as choke, which really doesn't matter here - and I better not see somebody call this a game changer)
Even if this was not what he used to bring up the Ravager with, he should still possess it as, like Telepathy, it is universal among Force sensitives.
Drain Stasis
Essence Transfer
Of course.
Lightning (possibly. As you said, this was cut, and therefore the continuity is ambiguous. I would call it S-Canon, for it has not been disputed. Other cut material have been stated as canon, such as the HK-50s series)
I concur.
Or perhaps Nihilus was also weak because he was holding the ship together. Or maybe it is held together on its own when grounded, but while flying or in space it requires Nihilus' concentration. Therefore, since this fight is on the ground, his attention may not be on keeping his ship together.
This could be true, but was there any concentration necessitated to hold his ships together? He seemed to travel, have conversations, Drain planets, and fight without worry about the ship's status. That could imply that it was never very difficult for him to manage it in the first place.
Also, it's worth mentioning that the ship had many holes within it, gaps leading to the raw vacuum of space. So I wonder: how were people not sucked out of the ship and how was there oxygen on the ship? Perhaps he actually encased the ship in a field of his own making.
Possibly. It may just be that the bridge is sealed off from the rest of the ship. Only problem with that theory is that the Exile and the Mandalorians, of course, boarded the ship and made their entrance at the bridge later, implying that they could last without being pulled out. However, that may only be because of the fact that the Ravager stopped moving. It was floating in orbit above Telos. Maybe when it entered hyperspace, the crew and Nihilus were simply protected from external forces.
Also, I would like to exam this quote from Captain Tobin, aboard the ship:
"This ship… is it his weakness? It should not exist, yet it cruises the darkness between the stars. He tore it from the mass shadows of Malachor, along with his fleet… that is a measure of his power."
It mentions the ship as his "weakness." Others called it that, as well, which is why they put explosives on the ship - but they didn't detonate the ship until after his defeat. Perhaps they knew that it required his attention? It also mentions the fleet that accompanied him to Telos, too, were resurrected from the surface of Malachor. If the Ravager is any example of what the ships were like after the battle of Malachor, then they should all be in a similar state. Therefore, does he control those ships, as well? Does he hold them together? "
This is a new piece of information to me. I never thought of it like that. One possibility as to how Nihilus sustains these ships may be a technology-based Force power, such as Mechu-deru, as opposed to Telekinesis. As with before, this is only speculation on my part. But your mention of the ship's having a correlation with Nihilus himself does complicate things.
He corrupted those in his presence? I thought he simply drained them.
Tobin was being corrupted. And remember: there was that row of men that worked in his bridge. Now it's been some time since I played KOTOR II (mostly thanks to my broken computer....), but I believe they were described as "mindless" or something like that. They just kept working. I would call that a form of corruption - I believe Tobin said that it happened over time. And I believe the Sith Troopers on Dxun (or it may have been Vaklu or one of his men) commented on Nihilus corrupting the beasts.
Maybe. Visas comment about the virtual impossibility of locating Nihilus may have had to do with his constant travel aboard the Ravager though.
It could have been. But how else would you explain that a planet full of Force sensitives and a group of Jedi didn't sense him coming to Katarr? Of course, it could be the fact that he was a wound in the Force, which would thereby give him invisible in the Force because he wasn't there, Vong style.
Agreed. Although based on the description, I still believe this may have a link to his Drain, possibly as a different application of it.
Could have been. That would make sense.
Even if this was not what he used to bring up the Ravager with, he should still possess it as, like Telepathy, it is universal among Force sensitives
Well, he does have at least two showings of telekinesis aside from holding the Ravager together:
1. Utilizing Force choke on Visas 2. Utilizing Force push on the Exile and company.
Well, not everyone who is Force sensitive has TK. You forget about poor Corran Horn (heh. Just joking)
This could be true, but was there any concentration necessitated to hold his ships together? He seemed to travel, have conversations, Drain planets, and fight without worry about the ship's status. That could imply that it was never very difficult for him to manage it in the first place.
Traveling took a toll on him when he was weak. I believe Kreia said that the reason she sent him to Telos was because she knew the journey would be too much in his weakened state. I don't know how much of an effort it is to drain a planet, but it probably revitalizes him while he's in the process of doing so. And we've never seen him fight anybody other than the Exile, which again was when he was weak.
Possibly. It may just be that the bridge is sealed off from the rest of the ship. Only problem with that theory is that the Exile and the Mandalorians, of course, boarded the ship and made their entrance at the bridge later, implying that they could last without being pulled out. However, that may only be because of the fact that the Ravager stopped moving. It was floating in orbit above Telos. Maybe when it entered hyperspace, the crew and Nihilus were simply protected from external forces.
Maybe.
This is a new piece of information to me. I never thought of it like that. One possibility as to how Nihilus sustains these ships may be a technology-based Force power, such as Mechu-deru, as opposed to Telekinesis. As with before, this is only speculation on my part. But your mention of the ship's having a correlation with Nihilus himself does complicate things.
*crap. I called him "Captain Tobin." My bad. I meant Colonel. I didn't even notice the mistake until I saw it quoted.
I doubt it was mechu-deru, mainly because I don't even see Darth Nihilus as intelligent or wise enough to be a practitioner of anything that has to do with Sith Alchemy. Also, I don't think it would work on a hunk of metal that had few functioning pieces (could be wrong on that).
Judging by the comments, it appears like Nihilus is strongly connected to the Ravager.
Tobin was being corrupted. And remember: there was that row of men that worked in his bridge. Now it's been some time since I played KOTOR II (mostly thanks to my broken computer....), but I believe they were described as "mindless" or something like that. They just kept working. I would call that a form of corruption - I believe Tobin said that it happened over time. And I believe the Sith Troopers on Dxun (or it may have been Vaklu or one of his men) commented on Nihilus corrupting the beasts.
His crew members conceding to servitude under him may simply have been an effect of Mind Control. Corrupting beasts may have been Beast Control. You may be right about it though. Force Corruption is a very generic dark side power (despite the rarity of its use), seemingly with a number of discernible results.
So I concede on that.
It could have been. But how else would you explain that a planet full of Force sensitives and a group of Jedi didn't sense him coming to Katarr? Of course, it could be the fact that he was a wound in the Force, which would thereby give him invisible in the Force because he wasn't there, Vong style.
Well, maybe they did. In Unseen, Unheard, Katarr was only shown after Nihilus' ship flew above it. There was no mention of what prior knowledge of his forthcoming the Force sensitives there may have had beforehand. Or he may have just been undetected because of his condition in the Force.
Or maybe the Jedi at that time were just really terrible at Farseeing. :P
Well, he does have at least two showings of telekinesis aside from holding the Ravager together:
1. Utilizing Force choke on Visas 2. Utilizing Force push on the Exile and company.
This is true.
Well, not everyone who is Force sensitive has TK. You forget about poor Corran Horn (heh. Just joking)
Haha.
Traveling took a toll on him when he was weak. I believe Kreia said that the reason she sent him to Telos was because she knew the journey would be too much in his weakened state. I don't know how much of an effort it is to drain a planet, but it probably revitalizes him while he's in the process of doing so. And we've never seen him fight anybody other than the Exile, which again was when he was weak.
I thought the reason she brought him to Telos was because there were few, if any Force sensitives there on top of the minimal population of the planet, thus providing little Force energy for him to Drain.
I agree with this otherwise.
*crap. I called him "Captain Tobin." My bad. I meant Colonel. I didn't even notice the mistake until I saw it quoted.
I doubt it was mechu-deru, mainly because I don't even see Darth Nihilus as intelligent or wise enough to be a practitioner of anything that has to do with Sith Alchemy. Also, I don't think it would work on a hunk of metal that had few functioning pieces (could be wrong on that).
I agree. Mechu-deru would be less commonplace than Telekinesis and requires more knowledge and skill. Good point.
Judging by the comments, it appears like Nihilus is strongly connected to the Ravager. "
Wait. If there was a connection between Nihilus and the Ravager through the Force, the causation for that may have been the Mass Shadow Generator as both Nihilus and his fleet were present there and affected by it on Malachor. That being said, is it possible that Nihilus is somehow bonded to his ship, allowing him to control it through the Force and operating it to follow his commands? Perhaps with his mastery of Force Drain, his position as a wound in the Force (which was caused by the Mass Shadow Generator, I believe), and his survival at Malachor may have drawn the Force energies lingering on the planet to forge a Force bond between him and the fleet. Maybe his influence over it is not a testament of power on his part but instead of a resulting factor left behind from the destruction at Malachor. Another theory: do you think that because of his tendency to use Drain, both voluntarily and involuntarily, that he may have absorbed and/or harnessed the Force energies remaining from the large-scale Force siphoning at the battle on Malachor to augment his power temporarily so that he could revive the ships?
His crew members conceding to servitude under him may simply have been an effect of Mind Control. Corrupting beasts may have been Beast Control. You may be right about it though. Force Corruption is a very generic dark side power (despite the rarity of its use), seemingly with a number of discernible results.
So I concede on that.
It's common, I think, because the Dark Side itself corrupts by default. Nihilus corrupted all who entered the Ravager. Tobin I believe was being corrupted by his presence.
Well, maybe they did. In Unseen, Unheard, Katarr was only shown after Nihilus' ship flew above it. There was no mention of what prior knowledge of his forthcoming the Force sensitives there may have had beforehand. Or he may have just been undetected because of his condition in the Force.
Or maybe the Jedi at that time were just really terrible at Farseeing. :P
Actually, it specifically says that they didn't sense him coming.
Haha.
I never liked Corran Horn, honestly. For that reason and becuase I just never found him to be interesting.
I thought the reason she brought him to Telos was because there were few, if any Force sensitives there on top of the minimal population of the planet, thus providing little Force energy for him to Drain.
I agree with this otherwise.
It was both. The trip would leave him tired with no sustenance to be found. Therefore, she left him trapped so that he could not escape.
Wait. If there was a connection between Nihilus and the Ravager through the Force, the causation for that may have been the Mass Shadow Generator as both Nihilus and his fleet were present there and affected by it on Malachor. That being said, is it possible that Nihilus is somehow bonded to his ship, allowing him to control it through the Force and operating it to follow his commands? Perhaps with his mastery of Force Drain, his position as a wound in the Force (which was caused by the Mass Shadow Generator, I believe), and his survival at Malachor may have drawn the Force energies lingering on the planet to forge a Force bond between him and the fleet. Maybe his influence over it is not a testament of power on his part but instead of a resulting factor left behind from the destruction at Malachor. Another theory: do you think that because of his tendency to use Drain, both voluntarily and involuntarily, that he may have absorbed and/or harnessed the Force energies remaining from the large-scale Force siphoning at the battle on Malachor to augment his power temporarily so that he could revive the ships?
Intriguing thought. Perhaps he does have a bond with the ship - though that doesn't explain the fleet comment. But to have such a bond with a ship... very unique.
So what your saying is that he absorbed the life force of those who died on Malachor? Very probable and interesting thought. But a temporary augmentation doesn't seem likely to me.
It's common, I think, because the Dark Side itself corrupts by default. Nihilus corrupted all who entered the Ravager. Tobin I believe was being corrupted by his presence.
This is agreeable.
Actually, it specifically says that they didn't sense him coming.
Hmm. So I was wrong about that. You may have a more definite point about Concealment then, unless his wound-in-the-Force-status blinded them to him. It could also be that because Nihilus is merely an Essence residing in a suit of armor, he may be more invisible to Force senses (Farseeing, Sense, Vision, etc.). An example of what I mean, when Sidious used Transfer Essence on Byss after he threatened to possess Luke, he agilely projected himself across the room, taunting Luke as to where he was situated (this was in the audio drama, not the comic). Maybe Sith spirits are harder to trace. Now, Empatojayos Brand levitated in the path of Sidious' Essence as he intended to implant himself into the infant Anakin Solo's body, but that could have been simple luck and intuition. Reasonably, if Sidious wanted to capture Anakin for himself and use him as a host for himself, he would send his Essence in his imminent direction, which Brand may have simply used to calculate (instinctively) where he would need to move if he planned to shield Anakin from him. Also, it probably did have impulsive and spur-of-the-moment determinants as well, since he had little time to act. But, anyway, my point is that a Sith's spirit if they are able to roam of their own power (which is rare) might be less noticeable.
I never liked Corran Horn, honestly. For that reason and becuase I just never found him to be interesting.
Corran is not my favorite Jedi of his time, but I have nothing against his character, personally.
It was both. The trip would leave him tired with no sustenance to be found. Therefore, she left him trapped so that he could not escape.
Alright. Thanks for the clarification.
Intriguing thought. Perhaps he does have a bond with the ship - though that doesn't explain the fleet comment. But to have such a bond with a ship... very unique. So what your saying is that he absorbed the life force of those who died on Malachor? Very probable and interesting thought. But a temporary augmentation doesn't seem likely to me. "
There can and likely will be disagreements about various theories on this, and of course, it's not like I present anything to show that Nihilus did amp himself (the whole incident is off-panel). But it was just a thought.
Not sure as to what this concludes about how it would affect his battle with Exar though (we seemed to get off-track a little bit).
Hmm. So I was wrong about that. You may have a more definite point about Concealment then, unless his wound-in-the-Force-status blinded them to him. It could also be that because Nihilus is merely an Essence residing in a suit of armor, he may be more invisible to Force senses (Farseeing, Sense, Vision, etc.). An example of what I mean, when Sidious used Transfer Essence on Byss after he threatened to possess Luke, he agilely projected himself across the room, taunting Luke as to where he was situated (this was in the audio drama, not the comic). Maybe Sith spirits are harder to trace. Now, Empatojayos Brand levitated in the path of Sidious' Essence as he intended to implant himself into the infant Anakin Solo's body, but that could have been simple luck and intuition. Reasonably, if Sidious wanted to capture Anakin for himself and use him as a host for himself, he would send his Essence in his imminent direction, which Brand may have simply used to calculate (instinctively) where he would need to move if he planned to shield Anakin from him. Also, it probably did have impulsive and spur-of-the-moment determinants as well, since he had little time to act. But, anyway, my point is that a Sith's spirit if they are able to roam of their own power (which is rare) might be less noticeable.
Palpatine may have been a special case. He was known to use Concealment to begin with. But it's very possible that they may be difficult to find when in their spiritual form. Still, either way, it's the same result as Concealment, and makes Nihilus difficult to sense. In the case of Exar Kun, it may mess with his abilities, as he would be facing an opponent that he couldn't feel.
Corran is not my favorite Jedi of his time, but I have nothing against his character, personally.
*shrug* He's just one of those guys that I don't care about. Same for Han Solo.
Don't shoot me! I just don't care about the smugglers or the pirates in the Star Wars universe. The only exceptions would be Nym, Mandalorians, and Bounty Hunters.
There can and likely will be disagreements about various theories on this, and of course, it's not like I present anything to show that Nihilus did amp himself (the whole incident is off-panel). But it was just a thought.
Not sure as to what this concludes about how it would affect his battle with Exar though (we seemed to get off-track a little bit).
The entire incident on Malachor is vague. We can only guess based on comments made by other characters and the end result that we see in the Ravager.
Not entirely off topic. It's about Nihilus and the Ravager, and whether that is a true feat of telekinetic proficiency.
Palpatine may have been a special case. He was known to use Concealment to begin with. But it's very possible that they may be difficult to find when in their spiritual form. Still, either way, it's the same result as Concealment, and makes Nihilus difficult to sense. In the case of Exar Kun, it may mess with his abilities, as he would be facing an opponent that he couldn't feel.
All of this is true. Not sure if Sidious can use Concealment while in spiritual form or what powers he can at all, really. He has said that he can retain his powers after death, but this is open to interpretation. He has demonstrated some abilities but not technical Force powers, that I have seen. Anyway, your point about it having the same effect whether a Sith spirit is invisible or whether he used Concealment is valid.
*shrug* He's just one of those guys that I don't care about. Same for Han Solo.
Don't shoot me! I just don't care about the smugglers or the pirates in the Star Wars universe. The only exceptions would be Nym, Mandalorians, and Bounty Hunters.
Different strokes....
The entire incident on Malachor is vague. We can only guess based on comments made by other characters and the end result that we see in the Ravager.
Not entirely off topic. It's about Nihilus and the Ravager, and whether that is a true feat of telekinetic proficiency. "
I agree.
True, but it strayed away from Exar a little bit. But back to the point, I think we can conclude a few things:
Nihilus' resurrecting the Ravager was through telekinetic means; however, he may have had a special bond to the ship which could decrease the effectiveness of his TK against beings and objects unrelated to it.
He required concentration to travel great distances aboard his ship.
The Exile's withstanding a telekinetic burst is only partially legit because of Nihilus' weakened state but still somewhat usable in the sense that 1) if the bond theory between Nihilus and the Ravager is correct, his TK may not be as impressive against other beings/objects and 2) despite his weakness, he still managed to bring the Ravager to Telos.
All of this is true. Not sure if Sidious can use Concealment while in spiritual form or what powers he can at all, really. He has said that he can retain his powers after death, but this is open to interpretation. He has demonstrated some abilities but not technical Force powers, that I have seen. Anyway, your point about it having the same effect whether a Sith spirit is invisible or whether he used Concealment is valid.
I took that quote to mean that he retained all of his prior knowledge and power when he swapped bodies. Of course, we have people like Darth Andeddu who could physically interact with the mortal world (though he was possessing a holocron. That might make a difference). Now how do you think being more or less blind to his opponent will affect Exar Kun's combative abilities?
True, but it strayed away from Exar a little bit. But back to the point, I think we can conclude a few things:
Nihilus' resurrecting the Ravager was through telekinetic means; however, he may have had a special bond to the ship which could decrease the effectiveness of his TK against beings and objects unrelated to it.
He required concentration to travel great distances aboard his ship.
The Exile's withstanding a telekinetic burst is only partially legit because of Nihilus' weakened state but still somewhat usable in the sense that 1) if the bond theory between Nihilus and the Ravager is correct, his TK may not be as impressive against other beings/objects and 2) despite his weakness, he still managed to bring the Ravager to Telos.
I'll try to save off topic comments for messages outside of this thread.
1. I can agree with this. Would you say that, given the location of this fight, Nihilus' TK could be heightened, since he won't be preoccupied with keeping the Ravager together? 2. True. 3. A. I wouldn't say that was the reason; I think it had more to do with his weakness. B. Indeed.
I took that quote to mean that he retained all of his prior knowledge and power when he swapped bodies. Of course, we have people like Darth Andeddu who could physically interact with the mortal world (though he was possessing a holocron. That might make a difference).
That could be.
Now how do you think being more or less blind to his opponent will affect Exar Kun's combative abilities?
It might lessen his ability to rely on his Force senses. As I alluded to before, Exar is able to use his powers to search for beings across the galaxy. But if Nihilus is invisible through the Force, that may not hinder Kun if he was to use his senses to learn of Nihilus' Essence form. It would just make him impossible to find if he Exar lost sight of him (which would never really happen in this setup).
I'll try to save off topic comments for messages outside of this thread.
1. I can agree with this. Would you say that, given the location of this fight, Nihilus' TK could be heightened, since he won't be preoccupied with keeping the Ravager together? 2. True.3. A. I wouldn't say that was the reason; I think it had more to do with his weakness. B. Indeed. "
1. Maybe. Although does he need concentration to hold the Ravager together or just to travel with it? Or is it both? 2. Could you elaborate on that? If our theory is accurate (which it may be considering the connection that characters described between Nihilus and his ship), then his Telekinesis affecting other beings would be less effective. It may have been a mix of both weakness and that theory, possibly?
It might lessen his ability to rely on his Force senses. As I alluded to before, Exar is able to use his powers to search for beings across the galaxy. But if Nihilus is invisible through the Force, that may not hinder Kun if he was to use his senses to learn of Nihilus' Essence form. It would just make him impossible to find if he Exar lost sight of him (which would never really happen in this setup).
Fair enough. I was just wondering if it would affect him in combat. Yes, most combat senses are pre-cog, but some involve sensing their opponent in the Force.
1. Maybe. Although does he need concentration to hold the Ravager together or just to travel with it? Or is it both? 2. Could you elaborate on that? If our theory is accurate (which it may be considering the connection that characters described between Nihilus and his ship), then his Telekinesis affecting other beings would be less effective. It may have been a mix of both weakness and that theory, possibly?
1. I would imagine just to move it. I don't think it would completely fall apart. Though I do think certain features wouldn't work without his concentration (life support, possibly computers, etc.) and that it requires his power to move and resist gravitational pulls.
2. I believe that it lessens his TK because he is preoccupied, but in this scenario I don't think he would be as worried about that. I don't believe it's because of the bond, but more to do with the fact that he has to keep it moving. I don't know what would happen if the ship was destroyed.
Fair enough. I was just wondering if it would affect him in combat. Yes, most combat senses are pre-cog, but some involve sensing their opponent in the Force.
Another reason Kun may be able to reach out through the Force to sense Nihilus during their fight is because he is already aware of Nihilus' presence; the Force sensitives on Katarr were not. Just a thought.
1. I would imagine just to move it. I don't think it would completely fall apart. Though I do think certain features wouldn't work without his concentration (life support, possibly computers, etc.) and that it requires his power to move and resist gravitational pulls. 2. I believe that it lessens his TK because he is preoccupied, but in this scenario I don't think he would be as worried about that. I don't believe it's because of the bond, but more to do with the fact that he has to keep it moving. I don't know what would happen if the ship was destroyed. "
1. Sounds about right. 2. So then what is our final conclusion on Nihilus' TK power then?
Another reason Kun may be able to reach out through the Force to sense Nihilus during their fight is because he is already aware of Nihilus' presence; the Force sensitives on Katarr were not. Just a thought.
This is true. But do you think that it prove at least a little difficult to sense Nihilus' movements in combat?
So then what is our final conclusion on Nihilus' TK power then?
That Nihilus is capable of, at least initially, lifting his wrecked capital ship along with his fleet off of the planet of Malachor (the word "tore" was used, which is what makes me think TK). After that, he was capable of moving his ship throughout space and into hyperspace despite crippling damage and, possibly, moving his fleet as well (though they didn't appear nearly as damaged, so this is strongly open to interpretation). In smaller examples, he is capable of casual telekinesis against other Force users (choke and push, though the former was on his apprentice who may or may not have attempted to resist).
This is true. But do you think that it prove at least a little difficult to sense Nihilus' movements in combat?
Sure. I believe that is probable. In all honesty, Exar has no real Precognition showings in combat. We can assume he does have it, as most, if not all Force sensitives do at some length, but he never seemed to use it. TotJ played around with Farseeing more than any other Force senses, I think. For instance, Vodo-Siosk Baas uncovered the fact that Exar was being coerced by Nadd's spirit into moving closer to the dark side. Kun could sense the Ketos as they exercised their Sith magic from across the galaxy. Naga Sadow was able to build his illusionary armies and fleets and conduct battles on numerous individual planets concurrently while meditating in his chamber aboard his ship. There are other displays as well. But Precognition was not a power that it gave much credence to. However, when taking Kun's superior combat speed into account, he may not need to be able to predict Nihilus' movements in battle but merely fight adeptly while protruding his Force Sense and Farseeing (and possibly Telepathy also) to learn of Nihilus' Essence. As we discussed earlier in the thread, Kun can simply slash away parts of Nihilus' armor in a duel or disassemble it with Force Blasts; so comprehending Nihilus' form is not entirely dependent on his senses, although they could be useful.
That Nihilus is capable of, at least initially, lifting his wrecked capital ship along with his fleet off of the planet of Malachor (the word "tore" was used, which is what makes me think TK). After that, he was capable of moving his ship throughout space and into hyperspace despite crippling damage and, possibly, moving his fleet as well (though they didn't appear nearly as damaged, so this is strongly open to interpretation). In smaller examples, he is capable of casual telekinesis against other Force users (choke and push, though the latter was on his apprentice who may or may not have attempted to resist). "
Alright.
Now we just need to come to some assessment of who would win the majority in this. I personally see Exar being the victor over Nihilus a solid majority of the time because of his speed, tact, dueling prowess, Force Blast, resistance/immunity to Force Drain, and Essence-banishing via his gauntlets.
One ability Exar has that we never brought up is his telepathic manipulation. He was able to induce a spell on the spectators at Ulic's trial into inaction and forced the Senate president into repeating whatever he said; he also lifted the Sith dominion that Sadow left on the Massassi to follow his leadership and reversed it so that the Massassi would follow Exar instead (although this was done through Sith alchemy as well, I think). The reason I think this can be left alone is because the capacity for mental domination to affect a Sith Essence is suspect. Here are scans of it anyway.
Sure. I believe that is probable. In all honesty, Exar has no real Precognition showings in combat. We can assume he does have it, as most, if not all Force sensitives do at some length, but he never seemed to use it. TotJ played around with Farseeing more than any other Force senses, I think. For instance, Vodo-Siosk Baas uncovered the fact that Exar was being coerced by Nadd's spirit into moving closer to the dark side. Kun could sense the Ketos as they exercised their Sith magic from across the galaxy. There are other displays as well. But Precognition was not a power that it gave much credence to.
This is true. It's an ability not mentioned all too often in the comics; more so in the novels, from my experiences.
Naga Sadow was able to build his illusionary armies and fleets and conduct battles on numerous individual planets concurrently while meditating in his chamber aboard his ship.
Now wait, that's not fair. I believe the chamber on his ship enhanced his abilities.
However, when taking Kun's superior combat speed into account, he may not need to be able to predict Nihilus' movements in battle but merely fight adeptly while protruding his Force Sense and Farseeing (and possibly Telepathy also) to learn of Nihilus' Essence. As we discussed earlier in the thread, Kun can simply slash away parts of Nihilus' armor in a duel or disassemble it with Force Blasts; so comprehending Nihilus' form is not entirely dependent on his senses, although they could be useful.
Perhaps. Kun is definitely the better duelist, but it's possible that Nihilus may be able to keep up - though I don't see him relying on his lightsaber alone.
I won't get into game mechanics. But it is worth mentioning that he fought two Jedi Knights on the Ravager; the circumstances, however, I won't pretend are clear or canon. But he did fight them and they could not defeat him unless they used Visas' bond against him (... honestly, I forgot if that was a light option. Last few times I played, I was dark). It's also worth mentioning that he always holds his lightsaber one-handed; and this is shown even in pictures of him. Could be an example of the fact that physical limitations may not be an issue for a spirit in armor.
Now we just need to come to some assessment of who would win the majority in this. I personally see Exar being the victor over Nihilus a solid majority of the time because of his speed, tact, dueling prowess, Force Blast, resistance/immunity to Force Drain, and Essence-banishing via his gauntlets.
At most, it could be a stalemate. I don't see this as an easy win for either of them. I don't think essence banishing would work on someone who is already bound; Nadd was not bound to anything specific. Unless Exar can release Nihilus' spirit due to insufficient damage, then I don't see it happening.
One ability Exar has that we never brought up is his telepathic manipulation. He was able to induce a spell on the spectators at Ulic's trial into inaction and forced the Senate president into repeating whatever he said; he also lifted the Sith dominion that Sadow left on the Massassi to follow his leadership and reversed it so that the Massassi would follow Exar instead (although this was done through Sith alchemy as well, I think). The reason I think this can be left alone is because the capacity for mental domination to affect a Sith Essence is suspect. Here are scans of it anyway.
The senate feat is impressive, but I don't see it working here. Those were all non-Force sensitives - certainly not in the league of a Sith Lord.
I believe the Massassi feat was, as you said, Sith Alchemy. And from those scans, it wasn't that hard to do to a race that - from appearances - willingly follow a Sith Lord.
I don't see telepathy as a game changer here. It should not work on one that has no mind to affect. I don't think telepathy would work on Nihilus, and Nihilus has no offensive telepathic feats to speak of.
This is true. It's an ability not mentioned all too often in the comics; more so in the novels, from my experiences.
Same.
Now wait, that's not fair. I believe the chamber on his ship enhanced his abilities.
I never remember it being stated anywhere that his meditation chamber empowered him, just allowed him an area to concentrate undisturbed, which is why when Gav betrayed him and fired on his ship, his phantom fleets dissipated.
Perhaps. Kun is definitely the better duelist, but it's possible that Nihilus may be able to keep up - though I don't see him relying on his lightsaber alone.
I won't get into game mechanics. But it is worth mentioning that he fought two Jedi Knights on the Ravager; the circumstances, however, I won't pretend are clear or canon. But he did fight them and they could not defeat him unless they used Visas' bond against him (... honestly, I forgot if that was a light option. Last few times I played, I was dark). It's also worth mentioning that he always holds his lightsaber one-handed; and this is shown even in pictures of him. Could be an example of the fact that physical limitations may not be an issue for a spirit in armor.
Not saying I disagree, but Exar has better physical feats and dueling showings. So Nihilus holding out is disputable.
At most, it could be a stalemate. I don't see this as an easy win for either of them. I don't think essence banishing would work on someone who is already bound; Nadd was not bound to anything specific. Unless Exar can release Nihilus' spirit due to insufficient damage, then I don't see it happening.
In Freedon's case, like you mentioned, he only traveled to planets with dark side energies abundant on them. More specifically, Exar cast his Essence into Chaos on Yavin in the Massassi Temple, a structure amassed with Force energies enduring from Sadow's alchemical invocations and rituals. Exar did this when he had just apprehended the full scope of what the Sith talismans' can be employed for, as well. Now, Nihilus is not just bound to an item (or in this case, a collection of items); he has a reliance on outside Force energies for his Essence to survive, which is a weakness of his. His disposition in respects to his requirement to feed on Force energies to maintain his Essence in the physical world could make him more assailable in terms of throwing his spirit into Chaos. Pretending this theory is incorrect though (which is debatable), we have already examined the substitute consequence of Exar simply blasting or slicing away parts of Nihilus' armor; that could grant Kun the opportunity to eliminate his spirit also. Truth be told, if Kun propelled a Force Blast at its heaviest intensity, I could see that shredding most, if not nearly all of Nihilus' armor and robes in one hit (it did blast apart sections of the Massassi Temple). In that case, Nihilus would have even less to link himself to and thus opening himself to Chaos-banishment. Another premise: Freedon Nadd, in my humble opinion, should have a more powerful Essence than Nihilus. The reasons for that would be that Nihilus is, obviously, bound to draining Force energies while Nadd had no such defect; Nadd was able to defeat Sadow's Sith spirit, meaning he could understand how to avert the same from being done to him (which would make Kun's doing so that much more impressive); and the other being that Nadd was more broadly knowledgeable on Sith lore. Verification for this should be in the simple fact that he advised Kun in his Sith studies, trained under Naga Sadow's spirit, and had lasting ramifications on Onderon postmortem (and a more clear one that Nihilus just was not renowned for his wisdom). Spirit Transference has been more useful to those excellent in Sith alchemy, which Nadd was. So the potent stature Nadd had as a dark sider could comprise a more abstract and immense power in his Essence.
The senate feat is impressive, but I don't see it working here. Those were all non-Force sensitives - certainly not in the league of a Sith Lord. I believe the Massassi feat was, as you said, Sith Alchemy. And from those scans, it wasn't that hard to do to a race that - from appearances - willingly follow a Sith Lord. I don't see telepathy as a game changer here. It should not work on one that has no mind to affect. I don't think telepathy would work on Nihilus, and Nihilus has no offensive telepathic feats to speak of. "
I never remember it being stated anywhere that his meditation chamber empowered him, just allowed him an area to concentrate undisturbed, which is why when Gav betrayed him and fired on his ship, his phantom fleets dissipated.
Hmm. I may have confused this with Sadow's Sith Meditation Sphere.
Not saying I disagree, but Exar has better physical feats and dueling showings. So Nihilus holding out is disputable.
I have no doubt that Exar Kun out classes Nihilus and most duelists in lightsaber combat - no question. All I'm saying is that, technically, Nihilus isn't "completely" without feats. That and the fact that Nihilus lacks physical limitations.
In Freedon's case, like you mentioned, he only traveled to planets with dark side energies abundant on them. More specifically, Exar cast his Essence into Chaos on Yavin in the Massassi Temple, a structure amassed with Force energies enduring from Sadow's alchemical invocations and rituals. Exar did this when he had just apprehended the full scope of what the Sith talismans' can be employed for, as well. Now, Nihilus is not just bound to an item (or in this case, a collection of items); he has a reliance on outside Force energies for his Essence to survive, which is a weakness of his. His disposition in respects to his requirement to feed on Force energies to maintain his Essence in the physical world could make him more assailable in terms of throwing his spirit into Chaos. Pretending this theory is incorrect though (which is debatable), we have already examined the substitute consequence of Exar simply blasting or slicing away parts of Nihilus' armor; that could grant Kun the opportunity to eliminate his spirit also. Truth be told, if Kun propelled a Force Blast at its heaviest intensity, I could see that shredding most, if not nearly all of Nihilus' armor and robes in one hit (it did blast apart sections of the Massassi Temple). In that case, Nihilus would have even less to link himself to and thus opening himself to Chaos-banishment. Another premise: Freedon Nadd, in my humble opinion, should have a more powerful Essence than Nihilus. The reasons for that would be that Nihilus is, obviously, bound to draining Force energies while Nadd had no such defect; Nadd was able to defeat Sadow's Sith spirit, meaning he could understand how to avert the same from being done to him (which would make Kun's doing so that much more impressive); and the other being that Nadd was more broadly knowledgeable on Sith lore. Verification for this should be in the simple fact that he advised Kun in his Sith studies, trained under Naga Sadow's spirit, and had lasting ramifications on Onderon postmortem (and a more clear one that Nihilus just was not renowned for his wisdom). Spirit Transference has been more useful to those excellent in Sith alchemy, which Nadd was. So the potent stature Nadd had as a dark sider could comprise a more abstract and immense power in his Essence.
I understand your reasoning, but I disagree. I don't believe Nihilus' spirit to be weaker than Nadd's. Nihilus is anchored to the physical world, while Nadd is more restricted to areas where the Dark Side is present. Nihilus was not a free roaming spirit, while Nadd was. And I think his need to feed (pun not intended) was more because of Malachor, something not common among other Force users. Nihilus was unique.
I do not question that Kun would resort to blasting Nihilus' shell (which is actually a rather good word for his cloak and armor). What I question is: would he do this before Nihilus did? The way I see it, Exar's first assault would be one utilizing lightsaber strikes. At best, he would get some decent hits before Nihilus retreated or sent Exar back with telekinesis. At worst, Nihilus would be capable of putting up a decent defense before retreating or using TK. Either way, same result. After the initial skirmish, Nihilus may resort to using Force powers. Now I question whether he actually would use drain. He has not used it in a combat situation - this does not mean he can't, but it means it isn't his go-to power. I believe telekinesis would be used.
Whatever he did to Kreia, whether it was a form of train or a dark version of Force sever (which may or may not also include drain), was more an act to humiliate her than to attack her. And he also utilized a powerful form of telekinesis - which may have been before or after he cut her off; the video is not clear on the timeline. She said that she was cast down and stripped of her power, in that order. It could be theorized that that he cut her off after pushing her, mainly because it was a little quick and I doubt cutting someone off from the Force is that brief. But this wouldn't explain how Sion managed to beat her so savagely without retribution, for we know she was more powerful than Sion - though she may not have reacted out of fear of Nihilus' power. Nihilus > Kreia > Sion, from what I've seen. Kreia knew she couldn't beat Nihilus in a confrontation. But Kreia wasn't a weakling, and if Nihilus had not cut her off prior, then it's a good showing that he was able to blast a rather powerful Sith so casually when she was prepared for a fight.
Now, we've already discussed Nihilus' telekinetic prowess previously. How would Exar Kun do against that?
Hmm. I may have confused this with Sadow's Sith Meditation Sphere.
I thought they were the same thing. Or at least, they seemed to be used interchangeably.
I have no doubt that Exar Kun out classes Nihilus and most duelists in lightsaber combat - no question. All I'm saying is that, technically, Nihilus isn't "completely" without feats. That and the fact that Nihilus lacks physical limitations.
Alright. I see what you mean.
I understand your reasoning, but I disagree. I don't believe Nihilus' spirit to be weaker than Nadd's. Nihilus is anchored to the physical world, while Nadd is more restricted to areas where the Dark Side is present. Nihilus was not a free roaming spirit, while Nadd was. And I think his need to feed (pun not intended) was more because of Malachor, something not common among other Force users. Nihilus was unique.
I never meant to imply that Nihilus' hunger was a common attribute among Sith spirits. On the point about Nihilus being tethered to the physical plane by binding himself to objects, I honestly fail to see how this makes a difference, especially since his Essence is perpetually waning due to his constraint of having to feed on Force energies. By this, would Sidious' Essence be easier to banish than Nihilus' because he could wander with very few stipulations?
I do not question that Kun would resort to blasting Nihilus' shell (which is actually a rather good word for his cloak and armor). What I question is: would he do this before Nihilus did? The way I see it, Exar's first assault would be one utilizing lightsaber strikes. At best, he would get some decent hits before Nihilus retreated or sent Exar back with telekinesis. At worst, Nihilus would be capable of putting up a decent defense before retreating or using TK. Either way, same result.
It depends on how Exar views his opponent. When he stood before Ulic and Aleema, he used Blast on Aleema and one-shotted her without a second thought but then dueled against Ulic. It could be that because Aleema used her own Force Blast (the green energy depicted from her palm; the TotJ sourcebook identified this as a Force Blast, not her usual illusions) that Kun simply wanted to discard her from the equation and in doing so proving his ascendancy and discrediting the remark about him being a Sith pretender. He did duel Ulic close-quarter instead of firing at him as well, but Qel-Droma was closer than Aleema, I think. Also, Exar may not have hesitation to just use Force Blast on Nihilus if he surmised that Nihilus could be a threat to the Sith records on Ziost. So with their starting distance (15 feet is not very far but not exactly lightsaber distance either, since neither have any speed feats in designation of running speed, only combat speed), Kun's fighting an unknown enemy who he may just estimate to be beneath him, and his working to preserve the texts, I think Force Blast is feasible. Not guaranteed but still reasonable.
After the initial skirmish, Nihilus may resort to using Force powers. Now I question whether he actually would use drain. He has not used it in a combat situation - this does not mean he can't, but it means it isn't his go-to power.
Can we say this for sure? The only real combat situation we saw him in was against the Exile, and he did attempt Drain there. It just failed.
I believe telekinesis would be used.Whatever he did to Kreia, whether it was a form of train or a dark version of Force sever (which may or may not also include drain), was more an act to humiliate her than to attack her. And he also utilized a powerful form of telekinesis - which may have been before or after he cut her off; the video is not clear on the timeline. She said that she was cast down and stripped of her power, in that order. It could be theorized that that he cut her off after pushing her, mainly because it was a little quick and I doubt cutting someone off from the Force is that brief. But this wouldn't explain how Sion managed to beat her so savagely without retribution, for we know she was more powerful than Sion - though she may not have reacted out of fear of Nihilus' power. Nihilus > Kreia > Sion, from what I've seen. Kreia knew she couldn't beat Nihilus in a confrontation. But Kreia wasn't a weakling, and if Nihilus had not cut her off prior, then it's a good showing that he was able to blast a rather powerful Sith so casually when she was prepared for a fight. Now, we've already discussed Nihilus' telekinetic prowess previously. How would Exar Kun do against that? "
I more or less agree with what you said about Nihilus, Traya, and Sever. About how Exar would handle Nihilus' TK, well, Kun was unhurt when Aleema used her Force Blast against him. Its connection or lack thereof was off-panel, but we see Exar again shooting her in turn. Aleema's Blast was powerful enough to incinerate another person earlier on, and Aleema was surprised by how much devastation it had. So this could be a durability feat on Exar's part. Now, we could just say she missed since whatever effect it had or didn't have was never shown, but I find that unlikely. She was not very far away from him, and Kun was walking toward her. If he did accomplish this, he may be well-versed in Force Protection (unless he used Deflection, Absorption, or Barrier, but I find this unlikely since these were never shown anywhere else). It very well may be a resiliency feat though because Kun was also capable of jumping down the shaft in the Massassi Temple that Sadow's dark side beast erupted from before. Although there is no cataloging of how deep this fall was, based on the artwork alone, it was fairly steep. Then, there was the tomb that Nadd collapsed on him. Of course, Exar was fatally injured, but the fact that he survived so many tons of stone being dropped on him was not without its worth. So, if these are any expression of Kun's physical durability, then I would say he could withstand telekinetic bursts fairly well. If anything, if/when Nihilus used Telekinesis, that could just allow Exar a chance to use Blast from a distance once he regains his stance after being telekinetically forced away.
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