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#1 Posted by zebari (515 posts) - - Show Bio

darth maul vs luke skuwalker from ruturn of the jedi who wins

#2 Posted by King Saturn (224157 posts) - - Show Bio
Luke Skywalker easy. If Obi Wan Kenobi can handle Darth Maul... why not a Jedi thats superior to him in Skill ?
#3 Posted by lordraiden (7075 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"Luke Skywalker easy. If Obi Wan Kenobi can handle Darth Maul... why not a Jedi thats superior to him in Skill ?"

Yeah, but in ROTJ, Luke was not really a master, untill the end of the movie till he acomplished his task, and even then, he'd only just started! Luke wasn't really that powerfull in ROTJ and was only trained for months by Yoda, which was dubious at best, running around in swamp lands on Dagobah doing jumps and sommersaults and learning to use the force to lift things! Last time I checked, it took years to get to master, and Luke only did it in such a short time, cause he was the last Jedi to carry the legacy! It really wasn't till years afte JOTJ that Luke hit his peak when he re-founded the Jedi order and surpassed Yoda himself and the previous Jedi who came before him! I don't believe Luke in ROTJ was all that powerfull, just lucky at that point cause he was part of a prophecy!
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#4 Posted by ThisIsGonnaHurt (30177 posts) - - Show Bio
lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"Luke Skywalker easy. If Obi Wan Kenobi can handle Darth Maul... why not a Jedi thats superior to him in Skill ?"

Yeah, but in ROTJ, Luke was not really a master, untill the end of the movie till he acomplished his task, and even then, he'd only just started! Luke wasn't really that powerfull in ROTJ and was only trained for months by Yoda, which was dubious at best, running around in swamp lands on Dagobah doing jumps and sommersaults and learning to use the force to lift things! Last time I checked, it took years to get to master, and Luke only did it in such a short time, cause he was the last Jedi to carry the legacy! It really wasn't till years afte JOTJ that Luke hit his peak when he re-founded the Jedi order and surpassed Yoda himself and the previous Jedi who came before him! I don't believe Luke in ROTJ was all that powerfull, just lucky at that point cause he was part of a prophecy!"

Well-said.
#5 Posted by King Saturn (224157 posts) - - Show Bio
lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"Luke Skywalker easy. If Obi Wan Kenobi can handle Darth Maul... why not a Jedi thats superior to him in Skill ?"

Yeah, but in ROTJ, Luke was not really a master, untill the end of the movie till he acomplished his task, and even then, he'd only just started! Luke wasn't really that powerfull in ROTJ and was only trained for months by Yoda, which was dubious at best, running around in swamp lands on Dagobah doing jumps and sommersaults and learning to use the force to lift things! Last time I checked, it took years to get to master, and Luke only did it in such a short time, cause he was the last Jedi to carry the legacy! It really wasn't till years afte JOTJ that Luke hit his peak when he re-founded the Jedi order and surpassed Yoda himself and the previous Jedi who came before him! I don't believe Luke in ROTJ was all that powerfull, just lucky at that point cause he was part of a prophecy!"
The Original Poster doesnt give an indication of what point in the film of Return of the Jedi we are using so we could say its Luke from the end of Return of the Jedi... and I personally consider the feat of beating Darth Vader greater than the feat of defeating Darth Maul. If Luke was skilled enough to battle with Darth Vader. A former Jedi who had defeated Count Dooku when he was Anakin. I gotta give him the nod
#6 Posted by lordraiden (7075 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"Luke Skywalker easy. If Obi Wan Kenobi can handle Darth Maul... why not a Jedi thats superior to him in Skill ?"

Yeah, but in ROTJ, Luke was not really a master, untill the end of the movie till he acomplished his task, and even then, he'd only just started! Luke wasn't really that powerfull in ROTJ and was only trained for months by Yoda, which was dubious at best, running around in swamp lands on Dagobah doing jumps and sommersaults and learning to use the force to lift things! Last time I checked, it took years to get to master, and Luke only did it in such a short time, cause he was the last Jedi to carry the legacy! It really wasn't till years afte JOTJ that Luke hit his peak when he re-founded the Jedi order and surpassed Yoda himself and the previous Jedi who came before him! I don't believe Luke in ROTJ was all that powerfull, just lucky at that point cause he was part of a prophecy!"
The Original Poster doesnt give an indication of what point in the film of Return of the Jedi we are using so we could say its Luke from the end of Return of the Jedi... and I personally consider the feat of beating Darth Vader greater than the feat of defeating Darth Maul. If Luke was skilled enough to battle with Darth Vader. A former Jedi who had defeated Count Dooku when he was Anakin. I gotta give him the nod"

Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ was not that great, he's a whitherd old man who's half a cyborg, moved slow and was at the end of his reigne/life, it's really not that much of a feat, and it was his son who did it, which, again, lends itself more to the prophecy, than pure skill/power on lukes part!
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#7 Posted by zebari (515 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"Luke Skywalker easy. If Obi Wan Kenobi can handle Darth Maul... why not a Jedi thats superior to him in Skill ?"

Yeah, but in ROTJ, Luke was not really a master, untill the end of the movie till he acomplished his task, and even then, he'd only just started! Luke wasn't really that powerfull in ROTJ and was only trained for months by Yoda, which was dubious at best, running around in swamp lands on Dagobah doing jumps and sommersaults and learning to use the force to lift things! Last time I checked, it took years to get to master, and Luke only did it in such a short time, cause he was the last Jedi to carry the legacy! It really wasn't till years afte JOTJ that Luke hit his peak when he re-founded the Jedi order and surpassed Yoda himself and the previous Jedi who came before him! I don't believe Luke in ROTJ was all that powerfull, just lucky at that point cause he was part of a prophecy!"
The Original Poster doesnt give an indication of what point in the film of Return of the Jedi we are using so we could say its Luke from the end of Return of the Jedi... and I personally consider the feat of beating Darth Vader greater than the feat of defeating Darth Maul. If Luke was skilled enough to battle with Darth Vader. A former Jedi who had defeated Count Dooku when he was Anakin. I gotta give him the nod"

hold on if darth maul fights rotj luke than darth maul is older so hes a lot better than he was in episode 1 he knows how to do lightning if he fights rotj luke so he might have a chance
#8 Posted by King Saturn (224157 posts) - - Show Bio
I find it hard to believe that Darth Maul could handle Luke Skywalker at this point in his training as a Jedi... 
#9 Posted by zebari (515 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"I find it hard to believe that Darth Maul could handle Luke Skywalker at this point in his training as a Jedi... "

no lets say darth maul escaped from obi wan in epsode 1 and he was trainnig even more if he fights luke in rotj hes probably more powerful than vader and emperor combined
#10 Posted by King Saturn (224157 posts) - - Show Bio
zebari said:
"King Saturn said:
"I find it hard to believe that Darth Maul could handle Luke Skywalker at this point in his training as a Jedi... "

no lets say darth maul escaped from obi wan in epsode 1 and he was trainnig even more if he fights luke in rotj hes probably more powerful than vader and emperor combined"
I Dont Know... maybe
#11 Posted by zebari (515 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"zebari said:
"King Saturn said:
"I find it hard to believe that Darth Maul could handle Luke Skywalker at this point in his training as a Jedi... "

no lets say darth maul escaped from obi wan in epsode 1 and he was trainnig even more if he fights luke in rotj hes probably more powerful than vader and emperor combined"
I Dont Know... maybe"
if luke reaches his full rage he could probably take him
#12 Posted by lordraiden (7075 posts) - - Show Bio
King Saturn said:
"I find it hard to believe that Darth Maul could handle Luke Skywalker at this point in his training as a Jedi... "

Let me get this straight, King, you find it hard to believe that a young Luke barely out of  his teens, into his early twenties at best by ROTJ, who only had a few months training by Yoda on a deserted planet for a few months going up against a trained Sith Lord by none other than Sidious who's already taken out other Jedi/masters, has years more training and took out Black Sun all on his own, is gonna be worried that Luke has had more training in his few months he had with Yoda, as oposed to the training Maul had over the years with Sidious, and actual field combat he has aquired since then (taking out jedi, Black Sun etc)! And you think Luke has the upper hand??? Again, Luke was not a Jedi master in ROTJ, he had no where next to the experience or skill level of previous Jedi, he didn't aquire that till years after ROTJ, when he restarted the Jedi Acadamy! Unless Lucas is writing it, no pun intended, but Maul should maul Luk from ROTJ, but if if was Luke from Dark Empire, say, then it would be the other way around :-)
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#13 Posted by Starkiller (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

Maul would destroy the young Luke...


of course Luke later becomes the most powerful jedi ever...but in  Return of the Jedi he can't do sh!t....Darth Maul did well against the powerful Obi Wan/Qui Gon duo...and even killed Qui Gon who was one of the best ever...

Maul wins easy...
#14 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio
lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"Luke Skywalker easy. If Obi Wan Kenobi can handle Darth Maul... why not a Jedi thats superior to him in Skill ?"

Yeah, but in ROTJ, Luke was not really a master, untill the end of the movie till he acomplished his task, and even then, he'd only just started! Luke wasn't really that powerfull in ROTJ and was only trained for months by Yoda, which was dubious at best, running around in swamp lands on Dagobah doing jumps and sommersaults and learning to use the force to lift things! Last time I checked, it took years to get to master, and Luke only did it in such a short time, cause he was the last Jedi to carry the legacy! It really wasn't till years afte JOTJ that Luke hit his peak when he re-founded the Jedi order and surpassed Yoda himself and the previous Jedi who came before him! I don't believe Luke in ROTJ was all that powerfull, just lucky at that point cause he was part of a prophecy!"
yes, but DM wasnt a master either, nor was he that powerful. He was only defeated by Qui Gonn because he was able to lead him into an enclosed space, due to the differences in their Styles, Juu-yo for Maul, and Ataru for Qui Gonn, which is the same style Yoda used. Qui Gonn was stronger than Obi Wan, but his style held a weakness that they thought the sith didnt know, which is why the didnt teach it after his death.

So, Darth Maul in essence was considerably weaker than him, and still was defeated by his Padawan in a fit of rage because he wasnt smart enough to kill him when he could. Luke also was not one of the power houses of the series until after the end of the series, I can agree with that, but I still think that he could pull off a win here.
#15 Posted by King Saturn (224157 posts) - - Show Bio
lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"I find it hard to believe that Darth Maul could handle Luke Skywalker at this point in his training as a Jedi... "

Let me get this straight, King, you find it hard to believe that a young Luke barely out of  his teens, into his early twenties at best by ROTJ, who only had a few months training by Yoda on a deserted planet for a few months going up against a trained Sith Lord by none other than Sidious who's already taken out other Jedi/masters, has years more training and took out Black Sun all on his own, is gonna be worried that Luke has had more training in his few months he had with Yoda, as oposed to the training Maul had over the years with Sidious, and actual field combat he has aquired since then (taking out jedi, Black Sun etc)! And you think Luke has the upper hand??? Again, Luke was not a Jedi master in ROTJ, he had no where next to the experience or skill level of previous Jedi, he didn't aquire that till years after ROTJ, when he restarted the Jedi Acadamy! Unless Lucas is writing it, no pun intended, but Maul should maul Luk from ROTJ, but if if was Luke from Dark Empire, say, then it would be the other way around :-)"
Okay well since you put it like that... maybe Luke Skywalker isnt that powerful then. 
#16 Posted by Tenjin (1604 posts) - - Show Bio

I read somewhere Vader actually fought Maul's doppleganger and destroyed him?

#17 Posted by Darth Balls (691 posts) - - Show Bio

vaders win hurt alot he stabbed through himself  to stab maul .not an easy win.

#18 Posted by lordraiden (7075 posts) - - Show Bio
Darth Balls said:
"vaders win hurt alot he stabbed through himself  to stab maul .not an easy win."

Tenjin said:
"I read somewhere Vader actually fought Maul's doppleganger and destroyed him?"
Yeah, Star Wars Tales #9, I believe!
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#19 Posted by Rdeegvainl (775 posts) - - Show Bio
zebari said:
"King Saturn said:
"lordraiden said:
"King Saturn said:
"Luke Skywalker easy. If Obi Wan Kenobi can handle Darth Maul... why not a Jedi thats superior to him in Skill ?"

Yeah, but in ROTJ, Luke was not really a master, untill the end of the movie till he acomplished his task, and even then, he'd only just started! Luke wasn't really that powerfull in ROTJ and was only trained for months by Yoda, which was dubious at best, running around in swamp lands on Dagobah doing jumps and sommersaults and learning to use the force to lift things! Last time I checked, it took years to get to master, and Luke only did it in such a short time, cause he was the last Jedi to carry the legacy! It really wasn't till years afte JOTJ that Luke hit his peak when he re-founded the Jedi order and surpassed Yoda himself and the previous Jedi who came before him! I don't believe Luke in ROTJ was all that powerfull, just lucky at that point cause he was part of a prophecy!"
The Original Poster doesnt give an indication of what point in the film of Return of the Jedi we are using so we could say its Luke from the end of Return of the Jedi... and I personally consider the feat of beating Darth Vader greater than the feat of defeating Darth Maul. If Luke was skilled enough to battle with Darth Vader. A former Jedi who had defeated Count Dooku when he was Anakin. I gotta give him the nod"

hold on if darth maul fights rotj luke than darth maul is older so hes a lot better than he was in episode 1 he knows how to do lightning if he fights rotj luke so he might have a chance"
You can't just assume they would learn things. That isn't how it goes. Besides, maul would be pretty old, and probably be on the way out the door. I mean, Vader was quite old in ROTJ and was just a child when maul was an adult.
#20 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.
 
This is a very even fight. Luke and Maul are roughly even in Force Speed, I believe. Luke has moved his lightsaber fast enough to weave "curtains," produce afterimages, deflect fire from around a dozen enemies, deflect AT-ST blaster bolts, etc. Maul has very similar showings, having constructed "webs" and "shields" out the blurring motions of his lightsaber blade and reacted quickly enough to reflect fire from a company of about twenty enemies. In movement speed, they should be roughly equal as well, both having run imperceptibly fast. In perception speed, Luke has superior showings, having reacted to/seen in slow motion TIE Fighters that were flying at sublight speed, seen Guri (who is superhumanly fast) in slow motion, and saw his phantasmal vision of Darth Vader in the Dark Side Cave on Dagobah in slow motion as well. Maul at best was able to perceive practice droids which could throw nearly invisibly fast attacks in slow motion. As a whole, I think Luke has a few feats that Maul has never demonstrated (generating afterimages or reacting to ships flying at sizable fractions of light speed), but I think I can safely assume that Maul could conceivably perform comparable feats if placed in those situations (and even if Luke was faster, which I doubt, the difference would be minimal enough not to matter). In physical strength, Luke is noticeably greater. He has done hand stands on one finger with Yoda on his upturned feet and carried Vader on his back while injured by Palpatine's Lightning. As a Djem So adept, strength is more pertinent for him than it is for Maul. In physical resilience, Maul has Luke outclassed though. He has withstood Force Lightning from a Nightsister, falling thirty (IIIRC) meters, and being hurled back by a speeder's repulsors without any discernible injury. Of course, his durability may not matter as much in a straight fight because Luke's lightsaber could certainly pierce through him, but it might be useful on the off chance Luke employs a telekinetic power. 
 
In Force power, both have abilities the other has never displayed (such as gravity control for Maul or a variety of telepathic powers for Luke), but all of them are largely useless in a fight. Telekinetically, I might give Luke an edge. He has used his TK to manipulate bombs/machines on all corners of Cloud City and support AT-STs. Maul has shattered doors and used his TK as a battering ram to hurl people away as he ran through Coruscant's streets (which tend to be fairly populated). Luke and Maul have each shown Lightsaber Throw before as well. Part of the problem with this however is that Maul has only been shown utilizing his Telekinesis on a few occasions, which limits the feats accomplished with it. It is worth noting that none of the feats he managed required much effort on his part though. Now, neither of them rely on their TK in the midst of a duel very frequently; so it is plausible that this may never become an issue. If it does, it would definitely not alter the course of the fight by a huge degree. 
 
Lightsaber proficiency is the most important factor here, and I honestly have no idea which is actually better. Luke was a perfect equal to Vader and later went on to beat Lumiya (albeit with a shoto and a lightsaber form outside of his standard) and stalemated Flint without too much interest in the fight (both of those were done after RotJ, but I doubt Luke's lightsaber skill increased by a significant margin in a matter of weeks). Maul has beaten Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anoon Bondara, and Darsha Assant. If anything, I may grant Luke an advantage simply because I think Vader is a better swordsman than anyone Maul has engaged before (Maul fought Vader once, but he seemed to be amped by the fortress' dark side energies). If Luke is better, it would be marginal. On the other hand, Maul will be fighting him with a type of lightsaber and a form of combat that Luke is unfamiliar with. He has never fought a Juyo adept or a foe with a twin bladed lightsaber. As a point to his credit, Luke did fight against Lumiya who came at him with a lightwhip. He lost the first round, but that came at least partially on account of his unpreparedness. And I would think a lightwhip would be a more complex weapon to deal with than a dual bladed lightsaber. Maul's style will be unrelentingly aggressive, but Luke, as a Djem So duelist, might be able to compensate for that since Djem So is designed to be a potent defensive style that returns very effective and powerful counter strokes. He does know Ataru as well, if he wanted to attempt an aggressive form in turn. 
 
All things considered, this is too close to call. I believe this could be a 5/10 either way. The two are just too even.

#21 Posted by i_like_swords (14264 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump again. Honestly not sure who wins but Silver made some excellent points above. Although, if we're using TCW Maul, there are some points that could be brought to light Silver didn't touch upon two years ago.

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#22 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Battle forum rules are not retroactive. This is Maul as he was at the time this was made, which is TPM Maul.

#23 Posted by i_like_swords (14264 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Guess I could make a TCW version of this thread then?

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#24 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24729 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke.

He is a tad bit more skilled by feats and his TK showing out-strips Maul's.

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#25 Posted by RogueShadow (10636 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke.

#26 Posted by dondave (37335 posts) - - Show Bio

Skywalker

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#27 Posted by Wolfrazer (6683 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by i_like_swords (14264 posts) - - Show Bio

Guess I'll play devils advocate. Maul wins via headbutt to the throat!

Nah for real, I'll just debate for Maul incase this gets interesting.

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#29 Posted by mikep12 (4142 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol! How does Mau win? Luke has much better feats.

#30 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

By RotJ, I could see Luke winning a 6/10 victory.

Nah for real, I'll just debate for Maul incase this gets interesting.

Come at me, bro!

#31 Edited by i_like_swords (14264 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova said:

By RotJ, I could see Luke winning a 6/10 victory.

@i_like_swords said:

Nah for real, I'll just debate for Maul incase this gets interesting.

Come at me, bro!

I'd argue that Maul's training, accolades, feats and broadly established martial arts knowledge will guide him to this victory, as well as his incredible physical condition, resiliency and competent force power.

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#32 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd argue that Maul's training, accolades, feats and broadly established martial arts knowledge will guide him to this victory, as well as his incredible physical condition, resiliency and competent force power.

Honestly, training is relatively irrelevant. Luke's vastly superior potential, which enable him to challenge Darth Vader (somebody on par/superior to Maul as a swordsman) in spite of lack of formal training, is easily more than sufficient as a counter. And that was only TESB Luke. RotJ Luke is a perfect equal for Vader in his prime.

Accolades - again, I think they're being overblown. Luke was a perfect equal with Vader, who was listed as one of the most skilled swordsmen in all of history, a better accolade than Maul's.

Martial arts I will concede, though. However, you'd also have to concede Luke's greater raw skill. That'll probably even up, to be honest.

His physical traits aren't entirely superior, though. Strength and speed are about even, or strength passes to Luke by a marginal degree. Maul is more enduring, but then, a lightsaber could still get the better of him.

And yes, Luke's TK is superior.

The advantages Luke possesses are relatively marginal, but I'm definitely supporting him for a 5-6/10.

#33 Posted by Wolfrazer (6683 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

I'd argue that Maul's training, accolades, feats and broadly established martial arts knowledge will guide him to this victory, as well as his incredible physical condition, resiliency and competent force power.

Honestly, training is relatively irrelevant. Luke's vastly superior potential, which enable him to challenge Darth Vader a counter. And that was only TESB Luke.

Hm?...I thought Vader was holding back though? Or does the novel say that ESB Luke proved to challenge him? Or are you meaning something else?

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#34 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer:

Although he had been only briefly instructed by Yoda, Luke Skywalker showed great ability in the Force during his duel with Darth Vader on Bespin. He had enough strength to challenge Vader, but Luke was far too hasty.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
#35 Posted by Wolfrazer (6683 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by i_like_swords (14264 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

Honestly, training is relatively irrelevant. Luke's vastly superior potential, which enable him to challenge Darth Vader (somebody on par/superior to Maul as a swordsman) in spite of lack of formal training, is easily more than sufficient as a counter. And that was only TESB Luke. RotJ Luke is a perfect equal for Vader in his prime.

I will have to disagree here on the basis that Maul has defeated an opponent who's force potential was amped beyond even Yoda's capabilities during their fight, and Maul was specifically stated to have won because he was more refined. I'm of course talking about Darsha Assant. Here's the important snippet from their relatively brief and one sided fight.

Darth Maul bared his teeth at her. For a Padawan, she was a worthy opponent. No Jedi Master lived within the Force more fully than she did at this moment. But he was going to kill her. He knew it, and so did she.

Darth Maul felt a slight disappointment as he realized that the Jedi was not truly as powerful as she had first appeared. Her depth in the Force was impressive, but her methodology did not match it. Both of them knew it was only a matter of time now.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

No, Darsha isn't as skilled as Luke, but she was during that fight able to sense every single little detail around her environment, and called out to the force to show her possibly scenarios of victory. The only one she came up with, for all of her increased power, was to blow herself up and take Maul with her. That's the difference skill made in that fight.

Accolades - again, I think they're being overblown. Luke was a perfect equal with Vader, who was listed as one of the most skilled swordsmen in all of history, a better accolade than Maul's.

The accolade isn't really all that much better than Maul's, to be honest. Maul was stated as being one of the most well trained, deadly, and skilled Sith of all time. Vader was just grouped with a larger scope of people (Jedi, basically). But Maul's accolade, and him and Vader both being Sith, essentially tells us that they are on par with eachother in terms of skill-tier.

Martial arts I will concede, though. However, you'd also have to concede Luke's greater raw skill. That'll probably even up, to be honest.

Raw skill, as in Luke's natural ability to fight on par with beings like Vader without the necessary training? Yeah, I'd concede there.

But then, Maul's revived version essentially bested Vader in a duel, and forced Vader to perform a self-destructive act, stabbing himself through his own cybernetics, in order to kill Maul. Now I'm not sure what version of Vader that was (ANH, ESB, ect), but it does suggest that Maul was at least on par with Vader on normal terms, when speaking solely on lightsaber skill.

So really, Maul and Luke are looking more and more even here, except Maul has better training, more advanced combat knowledge, and the ability to use his body as a deadly weapon as well. He had mastered "numerous" martial arts by the time he was thirteen. He could pinpoint the vulnerabilities on nearly every Mustafarian species when he was three. He's killed people instantaneously with his physical blows (not Jun-Fan) and has shattered/broken bones on impact. That kind of martial arts ability goes a long way in a fight where two guys are so even.

His physical traits aren't entirely superior, though. Strength and speed are about even, or strength passes to Luke by a marginal degree. Maul is more enduring, but then, a lightsaber could still get the better of him.

Is Luke's best strength feat matching Vader? Other than that I'm not sure about his strength feats. But even then, if strength is even/minimally in Luke's favor, Maul has still shown that he is better at applying his strength, through his martial arts.

And yes, Luke's TK is superior.

The advantages Luke possesses are relatively marginal, but I'm definitely supporting him for a 5-6/10.

Agreed, although I don't think it's a game-stopper, since the fight would likely end in a lightsaber duel.

I'm supporting Maul for about a 5.5-6/10, actually. I think their overall lightsaber combat ability, whether it be through training or potential, is even, or so negligibly close that a duel based solely on that factor could last for a very prolonged period of time.

However, given that Maul has shown better martial arts ability and application of strength-based strikes, as well as a more tactical mind (deliberately leading his duel with Qui Gon and Obi Wan all the way to the reactor core on Naboo), I think he has the edge when it comes to a purely physical confrontation. And in a purely physical confrontation, I'd give it to him 7/10.

However, because Luke can fall back on his superior TK in this fight, I will have to push that back to a 5.5/10 or a 6/10 for Maul, seeing as it will give him the advantage of off-balancing Maul.. but I only see that as a game changing tactic some of the time, given Maul's resiliency and ability to empower himself through frustration and pain.

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#37 Posted by Wolfrazer (6683 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

But then, Maul's revived version essentially bested Vader in a duel, and forced Vader to perform a self-destructive act, stabbing himself through his own cybernetics, in order to kill Maul. Now I'm not sure what version of Vader that was (ANH, ESB, ect), but it does suggest that Maul was at least on par with Vader on normal terms, when speaking solely on lightsaber skill.

It was around ANH Vader(0 BBY), that the Maul doppleganger fought. ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader > ANH Vader > Pre-ANH Vader. Vader got better/more powerful as time went on.

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#38 Posted by i_like_swords (14264 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: Well, that feat doesnt matter as much then. Cheers for the info.

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#39 Posted by Assman (1840 posts) - - Show Bio

In a decent fight, Luke from RoTJ goes down to Maul, without any prophecies to back him up.

#40 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

I will have to disagree here on the basis that Maul has defeated an opponent who's force potential was amped beyond even Yoda's capabilities during their fight, and Maul was specifically stated to have won because he was more refined. I'm of course talking about Darsha Assant. Here's the important snippet from their relatively brief and one sided fight.

Darth Maul bared his teeth at her. For a Padawan, she was a worthy opponent. No Jedi Master lived within the Force more fully than she did at this moment. But he was going to kill her. He knew it, and so did she.

Darth Maul felt a slight disappointment as he realized that the Jedi was not truly as powerful as she had first appeared. Her depth in the Force was impressive, but her methodology did not match it. Both of them knew it was only a matter of time now.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

No, Darsha isn't as skilled as Luke, but she was during that fight able to sense every single little detail around her environment, and called out to the force to show her possibly scenarios of victory. The only one she came up with, for all of her increased power, was to blow herself up and take Maul with her. That's the difference skill made in that fight.

You're not referencing the same potential I am - and Luke's potential > Yoda's as well. Furthermore, I was referencing Maul's training and Luke's potential which more or less cancels one another out. Not to mention Luke is more skilled than Maul, so this scenario is somewhat irrelevant.

The accolade isn't really all that much better than Maul's, to be honest. Maul was stated as being one of the most well trained, deadly, and skilled Sith of all time. Vader was just grouped with a larger scope of people (Jedi, basically). But Maul's accolade, and him and Vader both being Sith, essentially tells us that they are on par with eachother in terms of skill-tier.

I never claimed that it was much better than Maul's, nor did I claim he was out of Maul's tier in terms of skill. Same would go for Luke. All I was mentioning is that Vader's accolade is better than Luke was on par with him, which indicates some level of superiority, even if it's relatively marginal.

And by the way, it just said of history, not just Jedi and Sith. There are other Force-traditions and organizations and other swordsmen as well, just for reference.

But then, Maul's revived version essentially bested Vader in a duel, and forced Vader to perform a self-destructive act, stabbing himself through his own cybernetics, in order to kill Maul. Now I'm not sure what version of Vader that was (ANH, ESB, ect), but it does suggest that Maul was at least on par with Vader on normal terms, when speaking solely on lightsaber skill.

Umm..... that version is not indicative of Maul, not to mention that Vader was nowhere near his prime. This occurred before ANH, and ANH Vader was just a shadow of his former self. His skill improved tremendously between ANH and TESB, and RotJ was his prime (whether this is a matter of skill is debatable, since it references power):

By the time of the Battle of Hoth, Darth Vader has consolidated his position within the Empire as the favored agent of the Emperor. Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

Source: Insider #62

Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground...but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.

Source: Return of the Jedi
Credit to Silver2467

Luke stalemating RotJ Vader, who is well beyond the iteration that the doppleganger of Maul fought would mean he is well above Maul, if you are using the doppelganger as an indication for TPM Maul, which is still inherently flawed anyways.


So really, Maul and Luke are looking more and more even here, except Maul has better training, more advanced combat knowledge, and the ability to use his body as a deadly weapon as well. He had mastered "numerous" martial arts by the time he was thirteen. He could pinpoint the vulnerabilities on nearly every Mustafarian species when he was three. He's killed people instantaneously with his physical blows (not Jun-Fan) and has shattered/broken bones on impact. That kind of martial arts ability goes a long way in a fight where two guys are so even.

Not entirely. His martial arts have helped him duels but have never played a tremendous factor, not to mention Luke is a decent hand-to-hand combatant in his own right.


Is Luke's best strength feat matching Vader? Other than that I'm not sure about his strength feats. But even then, if strength is even/minimally in Luke's favor, Maul has still shown that he is better at applying his strength, through his martial arts.

He had Vader on his back, and carried Vader long distances after being weakened by the Emperor's Force Lightning, but he also was also able to perform finger stands with Yoda on his upturned feet (Silver referenced all of this above).

Djem So is more practical in application of strength, and Maul's martial arts have only helped him so much in a fight, especially considering Luke's own not so inconsiderable H2H fighting abilities. He isn't necessarily on par with Maul, but he can fight in a myriad of styles which include unarmed combat, blasters, lightsabers, piloting etc. We also know Luke could mirror Vader's own Djem So variant which incorporates multiple styles and is a decent indication of technical skills and knowledge.

The most important element in a lightsaber duel, is obviously, lightsaber skill - and in that, Luke is just better. He doesn't outclass Maul, but stalemating RotJ Vader as a feat transcends anything Maul has ever shown in the dueling department.


Agreed, although I don't think it's a game-stopper, since the fight would likely end in a lightsaber duel.

I'm supporting Maul for about a 5.5-6/10, actually. I think their overall lightsaber combat ability, whether it be through training or potential, is even, or so negligibly close that a duel based solely on that factor could last for a very prolonged period of time.

However, given that Maul has shown better martial arts ability and application of strength-based strikes, as well as a more tactical mind (deliberately leading his duel with Qui Gon and Obi Wan all the way to the reactor core on Naboo), I think he has the edge when it comes to a purely physical confrontation. And in a purely physical confrontation, I'd give it to him 7/10.

However, because Luke can fall back on his superior TK in this fight, I will have to push that back to a 5.5/10 or a 6/10 for Maul, seeing as it will give him the advantage of off-balancing Maul.. but I only see that as a game changing tactic some of the time, given Maul's resiliency and ability to empower himself through frustration and pain.

1. Agreed, but it still has uses.

2. Not negligibly close, and certainly not even. Stalemating RotJ Vader and even gaining the advantage at some points, which the RotJ junior novelization indicates, easily transcends any of the opponents Maul has fought, especially since most of them have relatively lackluster feats and are just reliant on accolades and lip-service to speak for their skill (like Anoon Bondara and Qui-Gon Jinn).

3. Luke's tactical ability and martial ability shouldn't be overlooked, even if they aren't quite on par, not to mention that these elements have only given Maul so much help in his duels, and are not more important than lightsaber adroitness, in which Luke is superior. That, and the setting here is just a city (since it isn't specified, so it's a city by default), and I doubt Maul could make as much use of this. That, and Luke does not rely on Ataru, so he is not so reliant on his environment like the Jedi were, and he won't tire as easily.

4. Luke has a penchant for getting out of desperate situations himself, but these sorts of things are just dubious in general.

I still stand by 5-6/10. Maul's martial advantage (which is lessened by Luke's own martial ability) is balanced out by Luke's superior TK, and at this rate, Luke's superiority with a blade is uncontested by any of Maul's advantageous elements, so I think that could afford him the win, or at least a stalemate.

#41 Posted by Beezlebub (1864 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate or win for Luke. I've recently realized I'm too lay to explain my opinions. :)

#42 Posted by i_like_swords (14264 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova:

You're not referencing the same potential I am - and Luke's potential > Yoda's as well. Furthermore, I was referencing Maul's training and Luke's potential which more or less cancels one another out. Not to mention Luke is more skilled than Maul, so this scenario is somewhat irrelevant.

I'll come onto Maul vs Luke skillwise anyway, but I think from this point on we can just agree that Luke draws his skill from potential, and Maul draws his from training, and neither one is really superior to the other by principle, since potential can overcome skill and visa versa. Let's focus on their skill showings and other factors surrounding their skill in combat.

I never claimed that it was much better than Maul's, nor did I claim he was out of Maul's tier in terms of skill. Same would go for Luke. All I was mentioning is that Vader's accolade is better than Luke was on par with him, which indicates some level of superiority, even if it's relatively marginal.

And by the way, it just said of history, not just Jedi and Sith. There are other Force-traditions and organizations and other swordsmen as well, just for reference.

Yeah, but Maul has specifically been put into the realm of most skilled Sith. Which Vader is. This really only implies they are at an equal footing in terms of skill in my eyes, seeing as they are both considered the most skilled in the exact same order.

Vader is one of the most skilled bladesmen of all history, of all bladesmen.. but really, there were no noteworthy bladesmen even prior to the foundation of the Sith Order. And Maul is very much in the same league in terms of skill with the best the Jedi Order have to offer, barring Yoda. So there really isn't any disparity between their accolades all things considered.

Umm..... that version is not indicative of Maul, not to mention that Vader was nowhere near his prime. This occurred before ANH, and ANH Vader was just a shadow of his former self.

I honestly made a dumb by even referencing that.. just thought it was sort of relevant. Lol, moving on xD

Not entirely. His martial arts have helped him duels but have never played a tremendous factor, not to mention Luke is a decent hand-to-hand combatant in his own right.

They played a significant factor in his duel against Qui Gon and Obi Wan. He was able to separate them from eachother by kicking Obi Wan off an edge, which allowed Maul to single out Qui Gon. Maul then used his martial arts ability to strike Qui Gon with the pommel of his hilt, opening him up for a killing blow. He also landed a kick (maybe two? can't remember) in his 1v1 encounter with padawan Obi Wan. And he constantly chains kicks and strikes in most violent encounters he's involved in anyway, which even if it wasn't the single factor that would open up Luke to a killing blow, would still serve to hurt him during the duel, possibly even slightly injure him, seeing as Maul has kicked hard enough to break into someones torso and break through durasteel.

Luke being a competent hand-to-hand fighter doesn't fully compensate for the level martial arts mastery Maul is bringing to this fight. Martial arts on it's own, and for everything it's worth in a duel (a fair bit, going by Maul's showings) is an advantage for Maul.

He had Vader on his back, and carried Vader long distances after being weakened by the Emperor's Force Lightning, but he also was also able to perform finger stands with Yoda on his upturned feet (Silver referenced all of this above).

My short term memory is atrocious...

Finger stands are very impressive, although I would argue that Maul could replicate such a feat, given he was in the absolute best shape physically possible (for himself), performing one-handed push ups at the age of three. He actually performed a training exercise similar to Luke's finger stand, which could be considered quite comparable.

Leaning forward, he placed his right hand between his knees and lifted himself up off the bench with one arm, holding there for a count of fifty before lowering himself and switching to the other arm. He repeated this exercise ten times for each arm, back and forth. Then using both arms he lifted himself straight up into the air, extending his legs, body held erect until every muscle trembled with the strain.

Maul: Lockdown

Lifting his entire body using one arm for fifty seconds, then lowering (not dropping) and swapping arms, and then repeating 10 times for each arm, is arguably similar to what Luke was doing, given the nature of the exercise, the length of time Maul held it for, and the fact he then held a handstand for as long as he could afterwards.

Strength I see as even stevens.

Djem So is more practical in application of strength, and Maul's martial arts have only helped him so much in a fight, especially considering Luke's own not so inconsiderable H2H fighting abilities. He isn't necessarily on par with Maul, but he can fight in a myriad of styles which include unarmed combat, blasters, lightsabers, piloting etc. We also know Luke could mirror Vader's own Djem So variant which incorporates multiple styles and is a decent indication of technical skills and knowledge.

True about Djem So. I will admit that Juyo seems to focus more heavily on overwhelming speed/aggression, than strength, although Maul has incorporated strength into Juyo quite proficiently, like when he was able to overpower Komari Vosa by squaring his shoulders and forcing his injured arm into sending out powerful blows. Or when he was one strike from breaking through the defence of Bondara before he kaboomed.

I already covered why Maul's martial arts have helped him in fights considerably before, and why a well placed kick could have a noticeable effect on Luke.

True, Luke isn't useless in martial arts combat, or many other styles of combat. But it's nothing Maul isn't also good at. When he was at the Orsis academy he was accurate enough with a blaster to hit people blindfolded and purposely missed in order to keep up his secret identity as a Sith. Maul is also a capable pilot. He's superior to Luke in martial arts application and knowledge by what I'd call a noticeable margin, and while Luke is good (by your admission), I haven't seen enough of his unarmed combat to suggest that Maul's martial advantage can be negated in this fight.

The most important element in a lightsaber duel, is obviously, lightsaber skill - and in that, Luke is just better. He doesn't outclass Maul, but stalemating RotJ Vader as a feat transcends anything Maul has ever shown in the dueling department.

This is unfortunately for my case, true. Maul has not fought an opponent as formidable as Darth Vader, and thus the upper limits of his dueling skill has not been explored. However, I will argue that Maul is on par with Vader for the following reasons, and based on your response I'll either stick to them or concede, based on if you change my mind.

  1. Maul has what I'd call, an accolade which puts him in the same league as Vader in terms of dueling. This could mean more, or less. Luke was an even match for Vader. Meaning Maul, going by that accolade, is more, or less, in the same league as Luke in dueling skill. That is, if you agree with what I said above about Vader and Maul both being in the same order when receiving these accolades, and the broadness of Vaders accolade not mattering too much seeing as there are few swordsmen who surpass Maul/Vader in lightsaber skill anyway, besides some RotE Jedi, who are, more or less, in the same league as Maul (Fisto, Mace, ect).
  2. Due to the nature of Maul's victories, I would argue that he is ready for a more formidable opponent. He defeated Qui Gon without too much noticeable strain, although he was a good opponent. Obi Wan while amped did alright against Maul, all things considered, but still lost to him reasonably decisively. Maul has instantly established superiority over anyone less skilled than those two when he hasn't been hindered, or the opponent hasn't been amped (Vosa, Assant).

2. Not negligibly close, and certainly not even. Stalemating RotJ Vader and even gaining the advantage at some points, which the RotJ junior novelization indicates, easily transcends any of the opponents Maul has fought, especially since most of them have relatively lackluster feats and are just reliant on accolades and lip-service to speak for their skill (like Anoon Bondara and Qui-Gon Jinn).

Sometimes accolades are all we have to go by, since not every character gets their backstory fleshed out due to a lack of popularity. Accolades like Anoon being one of the Jedi's best fighters, are there to establish them as good opponents, without having to give them an abundance of feats.

But yeah.. I guess this whole debate is basically centered around whether or not we will agree on Maul is more or less equal to Vader in skill or not, with the additions of Maul's martial arts, and Luke's telekinesis, playing a factor.

3. Luke's tactical ability and martial ability shouldn't be overlooked, even if they aren't quite on par, not to mention that these elements have only given Maul so much help in his duels, and are not more important than lightsaber adroitness, in which Luke is superior. That, and the setting here is just a city (since it isn't specified, so it's a city by default), and I doubt Maul could make as much use of this. That, and Luke does not rely on Ataru, so he is not so reliant on his environment like the Jedi were, and he won't tire as easily.

Of course not, but I was just making the case that if Maul were to have the advantage in tactics and martial ability, those smaller factors could tip the scales in his favor. And again.. tactically directing the location of a duel, and using a martial arts strike to open up and kill an opponent, were the deciding factors in Maul's most challenging duel. He used both tactics and martial ability to win those duels. Lightsaber combat was the primary focus, but those subtle elements are what he actually utilized to win it.

Hmm.. I would have to venture into the realm of speculation to justify how Maul would use a city setting to his advantage, seeing as he has never really fought in one before. Although I would say that a city akin to NYC could have some elements to be taken advantage of, if Maul was capable and inclined to notice and utilize them, but, again, this is speculation, and more of an afterthought. However, the fact Maul has opted to use subtle tactics like direction changing/deliberate luring/separation during a duel, off the top of his head, still makes it far from disregardable that Maul could use tactics to his advantage in this fight. If any kind of environmental or situational advantage arose in a lightsaber duel between himself and Luke, I could argue that Maul would make better use of it, which could lend him 1 more win out of ten than he'd usually get.

I still stand by 5-6/10. Maul's martial advantage (which is lessened by Luke's own martial ability) is balanced out by Luke's superior TK, and at this rate, Luke's superiority with a blade is uncontested by any of Maul's advantageous elements, so I think that could afford him the win, or at least a stalemate.

I see it like this, for now.

Lightsaber Skill. Luke = Maul, or Luke is slightly better. This is the most important fight factor.

Martial Arts Skill. Maul >> Luke, due to Maul's extensive expoundation and application of a variety of devastating martial arts techniques, and Luke's lack of. This has been a duel-winner for Maul, and must be considered in this fight. A relatively important factor.

Force Powers. Luke >> Maul, due to Maul mostly going for a physical victory and not utilizing TK, ect. This however isn't the most important factor in this fight, and I'd argue is not as important as a Martial Arts advantage. Martial Arts is physical, and Maul directly chains kicks and strikes into his lightsaber dueling. Force powers, however, could likely only be used in moments of respite, and even if they were applied, would only offset Maul temporarily. A factor to be considered, but not a game changer.

Combat Tactics. Maul > Luke, due to Maul having used very elaborate combat tactics during his fight on Naboo, off the top of his head. Again, because of the fact Maul has won a duel in part because of his tactical mind, this is a factor we need to consider. Maybe not as much as martial arts skill, but at least as much as Luke's force powers, even though force powers have never won Luke a duel like Maul's combat tactics have.

Physical stats. Maul is more durable, and is resilient enough to endure a force assault without being hindered. They are relatively even in other regards like strength and speed. Although this isn't the most important aspect of this fight, it is worth noting that because of Maul's striking power, he could hurt Luke during this fight with an unexpected kick or other type of strike.

Verdict? Luke may have the edge in lightsaber combat, but even if I gave him that edge, Maul has many important advantages Luke is both lacking, and not necessarily used to or prepared for. Such as, Mauls martials arts skill, his unfamiliar weapon which was able to offset Qui Gon and Obi Wan (granted, Luke has managed against lightsaber whips, but not on his first encounter IIRC) and Maul's tactical ability. Luke's only other real advantage is force power, but it is not really a game changer or anything that can prevent Maul from winning.

Maul 5.5/10.

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#43 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll come onto Maul vs Luke skillwise anyway, but I think from this point on we can just agree that Luke draws his skill from potential, and Maul draws his from training, and neither one is really superior to the other by principle, since potential can overcome skill and visa versa. Let's focus on their skill showings and other factors surrounding their skill in combat.

Fair enough.

Yeah, but Maul has specifically been put into the realm of most skilled Sith. Which Vader is. This really only implies they are at an equal footing in terms of skill in my eyes, seeing as they are both considered the most skilled in the exact same order.

Vader is one of the most skilled bladesmen of all history, of all bladesmen.. but really, there were no noteworthy bladesmen even prior to the foundation of the Sith Order. And Maul is very much in the same league in terms of skill with the best the Jedi Order have to offer, barring Yoda. So there really isn't any disparity between their accolades all things considered.

We're arguing semantics too much, all I portended was that the accolade is better, which it is. I never claimed either of them were in a different league or anything, so my point should still stand.

Regarding the lack of disparity - there should be some level of disparity based on the wording, but you do bring up a good point. Also, Maul isn't in the league of the later Luke Skywalker, but I think we pretty much see eye-to-eye on this :P

They played a significant factor in his duel against Qui Gon and Obi Wan. He was able to separate them from eachother by kicking Obi Wan off an edge, which allowed Maul to single out Qui Gon. Maul then used his martial arts ability to strike Qui Gon with the pommel of his hilt, opening him up for a killing blow. He also landed a kick (maybe two? can't remember) in his 1v1 encounter with padawan Obi Wan. And he constantly chains kicks and strikes in most violent encounters he's involved in anyway, which even if it wasn't the single factor that would open up Luke to a killing blow, would still serve to hurt him during the duel, possibly even slightly injure him, seeing as Maul has kicked hard enough to break into someones torso and break through durasteel.

Luke being a competent hand-to-hand fighter doesn't fully compensate for the level martial arts mastery Maul is bringing to this fight. Martial arts on it's own, and for everything it's worth in a duel (a fair bit

The disparity here is that neither Qui-Gon or Kenobi is on par with Luke as a swordsman or martial fighter, and the setting is also different - there won't be ledges on the streets for Maul to kick Luke off, unless they somehow ascend to the roofs and the likes, but the chance of that ever happening is extremely dubious.

My short term memory is atrocious...

Finger stands are very impressive, although I would argue that Maul could replicate such a feat, given he was in the absolute best shape physically possible (for himself), performing one-handed push ups at the age of three. He actually performed a training exercise similar to Luke's finger stand, which could be considered quite comparable.

Leaning forward, he placed his right hand between his knees and lifted himself up off the bench with one arm, holding there for a count of fifty before lowering himself and switching to the other arm. He repeated this exercise ten times for each arm, back and forth. Then using both arms he lifted himself straight up into the air, extending his legs, body held erect until every muscle trembled with the strain.

Maul: Lockdown

Lifting his entire body using one arm for fifty seconds, then lowering (not dropping) and swapping arms, and then repeating 10 times for each arm, is arguably similar to what Luke was doing, given the nature of the exercise, the length of time Maul held it for, and the fact he then held a handstand for as long as he could afterwards.

Strength I see as even stevens.

They might be on par with his exercises, but not on par with carrying Vader on his back after being weakened by a sustained barrage of Force Lightning from the Emperor.

True about Djem So. I will admit that Juyo seems to focus more heavily on overwhelming speed/aggression, than strength, although Maul has incorporated strength into Juyo quite proficiently, like when he was able to overpower Komari Vosa by squaring his shoulders and forcing his injured arm into sending out powerful blows. Or when he was one strike from breaking through the defence of Bondara before he kaboomed.

I already covered why Maul's martial arts have helped him in fights considerably before, and why a well placed kick could have a noticeable effect on Luke.

True, Luke isn't useless in martial arts combat, or many other styles of combat. But it's nothing Maul isn't also good at. When he was at the Orsis academy he was accurate enough with a blaster to hit people blindfolded and purposely missed in order to keep up his secret identity as a Sith. Maul is also a capable pilot. He's superior to Luke in martial arts application and knowledge by what I'd call a noticeable margin, and while Luke is good (by your admission), I haven't seen enough of his unarmed combat to suggest that Maul's martial advantage can be negated in this fight.

1. Neither of those combatants, especially Vosa, were impressive in regards to strength.

2. Addressed this.

3. I don't claim Luke's martial ability to be capable of negating Maul's, but it's enough to dampen Maul's advantage to the point where Luke's TK advantage does negate Maul's martial advantage.

This is unfortunately for my case, true. Maul has not fought an opponent as formidable as Darth Vader, and thus the upper limits of his dueling skill has not been explored. However, I will argue that Maul is on par with Vader for the following reasons, and based on your response I'll either stick to them or concede, based on if you change my mind.

  1. Maul has what I'd call, an accolade which puts him in the same league as Vader in terms of dueling. This could mean more, or less. Luke was an even match for Vader. Meaning Maul, going by that accolade, is more, or less, in the same league as Luke in dueling skill. That is, if you agree with what I said above about Vader and Maul both being in the same order when receiving these accolades, and the broadness of Vaders accolade not mattering too much seeing as there are few swordsmen who surpass Maul/Vader in lightsaber skill anyway, besides some RotE Jedi, who are, more or less, in the same league as Maul (Fisto, Mace, ect).
  2. Due to the nature of Maul's victories, I would argue that he is ready for a more formidable opponent. He defeated Qui Gon without too much noticeable strain, although he was a good opponent. Obi Wan while amped did alright against Maul, all things considered, but still lost to him reasonably decisively. Maul has instantly established superiority over anyone less skilled than those two when he hasn't been hindered, or the opponent hasn't been amped (Vosa, Assant).

1. Maul being in the same league is never something anybody has contested. However, this has nothing to do with Luke being a perfect equal to Vader, and Maul is not perfectly equal with Vader.

2. I doubt it. None of his opponents had any impressive feats by any stretch of the imagination. None of them are really in Vader's league, to be honest. Qui-Gon was outsparred by Xanatos and Feemor, Obi-Wan did nothing except outspar Bruck Chun, an absolute joke of a combatant, Bondara is practically featless and is lower than Qui-Gon, Assant was featless, Vosa is just lip-service and pretty much featless, etc.

3. You also neglected that on Naboo, Qui-Gon lasted against Maul on his own for an extended period of time in spite of tiring and the environment being not particularly suited for an Ataru adept.

Sometimes accolades are all we have to go by, since not every character gets their backstory fleshed out due to a lack of popularity. Accolades like Anoon being one of the Jedi's best fighters, are there to establish them as good opponents, without having to give them an abundance of feats.

But yeah.. I guess this whole debate is basically centered around whether or not we will agree on Maul is more or less equal to Vader in skill or not, with the additions of Maul's martial arts, and Luke's telekinesis, playing a factor.

And then there's the accolades that claim Luminara can easily match Count Dooku as a swordsman... accolades aren't always reliable.

Of course not, but I was just making the case that if Maul were to have the advantage in tactics and martial ability, those smaller factors could tip the scales in his favor. And again.. tactically directing the location of a duel, and using a martial arts strike to open up and kill an opponent, were the deciding factors in Maul's most challenging duel. He used both tactics and martial ability to win those duels. Lightsaber combat was the primary focus, but those subtle elements are what he actually utilized to win it.

Hmm.. I would have to venture into the realm of speculation to justify how Maul would use a city setting to his advantage, seeing as he has never really fought in one before. Although I would say that a city akin to NYC could have some elements to be taken advantage of, if Maul was capable and inclined to notice and utilize them, but, again, this is speculation, and more of an afterthought. However, the fact Maul has opted to use subtle tactics like direction changing/deliberate luring/separation during a duel, off the top of his head, still makes it far from disregardable that Maul could use tactics to his advantage in this fight. If any kind of environmental or situational advantage arose in a lightsaber duel between himself and Luke, I could argue that Maul would make better use of it, which could lend him 1 more win out of ten than he'd usually get.

His tactics worked against inferior opponents in a different and more favorable (for him) setting, and his martial ability had limited use, and this was against martially inferior opponents than Luke as well.

This is too much speculation, as you said. Luke has a propensity for utilizing the environment, as well.


I see it like this, for now.

Lightsaber Skill. Luke = Maul, or Luke is slightly better. This is the most important fight factor.

Martial Arts Skill. Maul >> Luke, due to Maul's extensive expoundation and application of a variety of devastating martial arts techniques, and Luke's lack of. This has been a duel-winner for Maul, and must be considered in this fight. A relatively important factor.

Force Powers. Luke >> Maul, due to Maul mostly going for a physical victory and not utilizing TK, ect. This however isn't the most important factor in this fight, and I'd argue is not as important as a Martial Arts advantage. Martial Arts is physical, and Maul directly chains kicks and strikes into his lightsaber dueling. Force powers, however, could likely only be used in moments of respite, and even if they were applied, would only offset Maul temporarily. A factor to be considered, but not a game changer.

Combat Tactics. Maul > Luke, due to Maul having used very elaborate combat tactics during his fight on Naboo, off the top of his head. Again, because of the fact Maul has won a duel in part because of his tactical mind, this is a factor we need to consider. Maybe not as much as martial arts skill, but at least as much as Luke's force powers, even though force powers have never won Luke a duel like Maul's combat tactics have.

Physical stats. Maul is more durable, and is resilient enough to endure a force assault without being hindered. They are relatively even in other regards like strength and speed. Although this isn't the most important aspect of this fight, it is worth noting that because of Maul's striking power, he could hurt Luke during this fight with an unexpected kick or other type of strike.

Verdict? Luke may have the edge in lightsaber combat, but even if I gave him that edge, Maul has many important advantages Luke is both lacking, and not necessarily used to or prepared for. Such as, Mauls martials arts skill, his unfamiliar weapon which was able to offset Qui Gon and Obi Wan (granted, Luke has managed against lightsaber whips, but not on his first encounter IIRC) and Maul's tactical ability. Luke's only other real advantage is force power, but it is not really a game changer or anything that can prevent Maul from winning.

Maul 5.5/10.

I need to go soon, so I unfortunately can't post much, but I'll reiterate.

1. Yes, but the advantage, which is the most important one, is at least noticeably in Luke's favor.

2 & 3. Agreed, but Luke's TK can counter Maul's martial advantage, which is dampened against Luke, who has decent martial ability.

4 & 5. Not really relevant. As I said, these were only so useful in his duels against inferior opponents and in a different setting.

Regarding Maul hurting Luke, Luke withstood a decent amount of Force Lightning, from the Emperor, of all people. It's true that the Lightning was intended to torture more than be lethal, but it was gradually increasing in lethality and Lightning also slowly bleeds out the victim's life force, and Luke not only lasted a long period of time, but managed to get up rather easily after that, and then carry Vader an extended distance. So his durability shouldn't be overlooked.

My verdict remains the same. 5-6/10 for Luke.

#44 Posted by i_like_swords (14264 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: I guess I'll close off by clearing up some of what I think got lost in translation.

The disparity here is that neither Qui-Gon or Kenobi is on par with Luke as a swordsman or martial fighter, and the setting is also different - there won't be ledges on the streets for Maul to kick Luke off, unless they somehow ascend to the roofs and the likes, but the chance of that ever happening is extremely dubious.

I know that, but what I was meaning by bringing it up is, it's an example of a time Maul has used a martial arts technique to win a fight, and a time when he heavily manipulated the battle by directing the duel to a specific location, which while may not be directly applicable here, is a prime example of Maul's tactical thinking. And because of Maul's potential to end up utilizing martial arts/combat tactics, I think either one on their own could afford Maul a win in this scenario, out of ten, each.

They might be on par with his exercises, but not on par with carrying Vader on his back after being weakened by a sustained barrage of Force Lightning from the Emperor.

True, true. Although again Maul has done similar stuff like hoist a 7 foot+ tall creature by the throat and choke it with enough force to have blood spurt from it's eyes and mouth, and has casually thrown from the neck a Mandalorian warrior into a fireplace (this made me quite jittery at the time, not going to lie). And the Mandalorian feat was Maul before he was in his physical prime. And really, Luke carrying Vader after being injured is more of an endurance feat than a strength feat, and Maul has a lot of endurance if nothing else, which you know already. Maul after being tortured by Sidious daily during his training and still being required to endure intense physical exercise is a testament to the fact he could probably also endure his torture, and then go on to lift Vader, given his overall durability, exposure/resistance to force lighting, and physical strength. So I'd say Maul and Luke were still even in strength, but even if you don't agree, I think it's fair to say it's one of those things that don't matter too much.

3. I don't claim Luke's martial ability to be capable of negating Maul's, but it's enough to dampen Maul's advantage to the point where Luke's TK advantage does negate Maul's martial advantage.

This I don't understand. The only way one could truly negate Maul's martial arts advantage is by being a good enough physical martial artist to avoid or counter his physical blows. Luke having superior TK does not translate to him being able to deal with a kick to the jaw from a superior martial artist who is just as fast as him, and only a bit less skilled in lightsaber combat. Yeah, Luke's TK will even the fight out a bit, but it won't go as far as to negate something it is no way a direct counter for.

2. I doubt it. None of his opponents had any impressive feats by any stretch of the imagination. None of them are really in Vader's league, to be honest. Qui-Gon was outsparred by Xanatos and Feemor, Obi-Wan did nothing except outspar Bruck Chun, an absolute joke of a combatant, Bondara is practically featless and is lower than Qui-Gon, Assant was featless, Vosa is just lip-service and pretty much featless, etc.

My main point was the absolute dominance Maul showed over them (except from over Qui Gon and Obi Wan, who he didn't necessarily dominate like the rest, but then you wouldn't expect him to), which implies he is ready for a higher caliber of opponent, which then fits in with his accolade which is comparable to Vaders. Also, to be fair, Qui Gon easily bested both Xanatos and Feemor, and was only really caught off guard during a measly sparring session when they attacked him simultaneously. Maybe he's just not great against multiple opponents? I don't think it's an indication of his overall skill level. Obi Wan was amped, however, and the fact he somewhat competed with Maul before and during that amp is a showing in of itself. Bondara was "one of the best in the Jedi order", but under Qui Gon. And was a master of Teras Kasi. And Maul dominated him, forcing him to prolong the fight as long as he could by committing to defence. I agree about Vosa though.

I think if we give these combatants credit where it's due, even if it isn't much, and then consider the nature of Maul's victories over them, which is essentially Maul dominating Assant while amped, Bondara on normal terms, Vosa while injured quite severely, Qui Gon with a leg injury and then while fresh... it does suggest he's ready for better opponents, and just because he hasn't fought someone like Vader, doesn't mean he can't. That's all I really meant.

3. You also neglected that on Naboo, Qui-Gon lasted against Maul on his own for an extended period of time in spite of tiring and the environment being not particularly suited for an Ataru adept.

Haven't read the TPM novel xD, but that does need to be considered aswell.

And then there's the accolades that claim Luminara can easily match Count Dooku as a swordsman... accolades aren't always reliable.

However, the simplicity of accolades like "one of the best in the order" and "a master of Teras Kasi" are fairly reliable in that they are not going to spawn any inconsistencies.. unless the writer is a child.

Regarding Maul hurting Luke, Luke withstood a decent amount of Force Lightning, from the Emperor, of all people. It's true that the Lightning was intended to torture more than be lethal, but it was gradually increasing in lethality and Lightning also slowly bleeds out the victim's life force, and Luke not only lasted a long period of time, but managed to get up rather easily after that, and then carry Vader an extended distance. So his durability shouldn't be overlooked.

Fair points, but Sith Lightning =/= Blunt Force. Not that he isn't resilient, but he doesn't have harder bones or denser muscle/flesh than normal people/Jedi, who Maul has been capable of injuring quite severely with his body. So I stand by the concept of Maul's face kicks bruising up that pretty boys face :p

Nice debate man, I think we brought quite a lot of life into this topic.

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#45 Posted by GraniteSoldier (7733 posts) - - Show Bio

Purely based on movies it'd be easy to say Maul. However Jedi battles were never shown as they were intended due to limitations of film at the time. Luke should win it if you consider novels, his skills are more impressive in the ROTJ novel than they were on film. Depends what you include for me.

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#46 Posted by i_like_swords (14264 posts) - - Show Bio

Purely based on movies it'd be easy to say Maul. However Jedi battles were never shown as they were intended due to limitations of film at the time. Luke should win it if you consider novels, his skills are more impressive in the ROTJ novel than they were on film. Depends what you include for me.

Well to be honest, I don't think there is any reason to separate the movies/EU anymore, since they're all one canon class now. The choreography of the movie fight scenes is really the only thing lacking from them in terms of what the EU is able to show properly. But they're still a half-decent visual representation of events, have all the dialogue that ties in with EU content, and basically they just flow along perfectly with the rest of the continuity.

So I'd say you should consider all media platforms for Star Wars, including movies, but don't say something like "Luke was sooo slow in the movies, he loses!!" Not that you would, haha.

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#47 Edited by Beezlebub (1864 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually based on evidence and pure debating skill on ILS's part I am now leaning more towards a stalemate between the two.

#48 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

I know that, but what I was meaning by bringing it up is, it's an example of a time Maul has used a martial arts technique to win a fight, and a time when he heavily manipulated the battle by directing the duel to a specific location, which while may not be directly applicable here, is a prime example of Maul's tactical thinking. And because of Maul's potential to end up utilizing martial arts/combat tactics, I think either one on their own could afford Maul a win in this scenario, out of ten, each.

I understand, but then, if it's not applicable here, then it's somewhat irrelevant. As for Maul tactical ability giving a win on its own, that's ridiculous. Luke is not a fool and he had enough skill by TESB alone to utilize some of Bespin's environment against Vader, as Vader did against him in turn. A regular city does not offer as much material to utilize, but Luke by RotJ also grew.

True, true. Although again Maul has done similar stuff like hoist a 7 foot+ tall creature by the throat and choke it with enough force to have blood spurt from it's eyes and mouth, and has casually thrown from the neck a Mandalorian warrior into a fireplace (this made me quite jittery at the time, not going to lie). And the Mandalorian feat was Maul before he was in his physical prime. And really, Luke carrying Vader after being injured is more of an endurance feat than a strength feat, and Maul has a lotof endurance if nothing else, which you know already. Maul after being tortured by Sidious daily during his training and still being required to endure intense physical exercise is a testament to the fact he could probably also endure his torture, and then go on to lift Vader, given his overall durability, exposure/resistance to force lighting, and physical strength. So I'd say Maul and Luke were still even in strength, but even if you don't agree, I think it's fair to say it's one of those things that don't matter too much.

Actually, to be honest, this would be more negligible than anything else, if at all. While Luke seems stronger, it was more body force and body strength than anything else. In terms of actual physical striking force, I don't think it would really matter.

This I don't understand. The only way one could truly negate Maul's martial arts advantage is by being a good enough physical martial artist to avoid or counter his physical blows. Luke having superior TK does not translate to him being able to deal with a kick to the jaw from a superior martial artist who is just as fast as him, and only a bit less skilled in lightsaber combat. Yeah, Luke's TK will even the fight out a bit, but it won't go as far as to negate something it is no way a direct counter for.

Luke's own martial and gymnastic abilities aren't exactly as poor as those. Luke is primarily a Djem So adept, which has both offensive and defensive usages, but he also knows Ataru for pure offensiveness, and knows (or seemingly does) Soresu for pure defensiveness. He should be more capable than Kenobi or Jinn, in both martial capacity and dueling skill, and Maul landed one blow against Kenobi and Jinn that I remember (one against each).

I don't mean Luke's TK effectively or directly negates it - I mean both portend the same level of advantage for each other that, when matched up, are more or less going to be cancelled out in the final accounting of their advantages and disadvantages.

My main point was the absolute dominance Maul showed over them (except from over Qui Gon and Obi Wan, who he didn't necessarily dominate like the rest, but then you wouldn't expect him to), which implies he is ready for a higher caliber of opponent, which then fits in with his accolade which is comparable to Vaders. Also, to be fair, Qui Gon easily bested both Xanatos and Feemor, and was only really caught off guard during a measly sparring session when they attacked him simultaneously. Maybe he's just not great against multiple opponents? I don't think it's an indication of his overall skill level. Obi Wan was amped, however, and the fact he somewhat competed with Maul before and during that amp is a showing in of itself. Bondara was "one of the best in the Jedi order", but under Qui Gon. And was a master of Teras Kasi. And Maul dominated him, forcing him to prolong the fight as long as he could by committing to defence. I agree about Vosa though.

I think if we give these combatants credit where it's due, even if it isn't much, and then consider the nature of Maul's victories over them, which is essentially Maul dominating Assant while amped, Bondara on normal terms, Vosa while injured quite severely, Qui Gon with a leg injury and then while fresh... it does suggest he's ready for better opponents, and just because he hasn't fought someone like Vader, doesn't mean he can't. That's all I really meant.

I never really contended this point, and it should be obvious Maul can contend with Vader anyways. Also, Qui-Gon bested Xanatos and Feemor individually, but when Xanatos tactically utilized Feemor as an initial distraction, he disarmed Jinn, IIRC. That, as a showing, somewhat indicates Jinn being prone to tactical manipulation, which is also what happened on Naboo, although, to be fair, on Naboo, Jinn recognized Maul was leading them to a place of his choosing, but could do nothing about it. Regarding Jinn not being at his best against multiple opponents - that's evident, considering Ataru is designed for one-on-one combat and this has been reiterated more than once. Only a true master of Ataru can effectively combat multiple targets at once, and Jinn has had issues with multiple enemies before. However, if this is not indicative as a showing, then Jinn is featless. Outside of his fights with Maul and Xanatos and Feemor, he has done nothing at all except supposedly spar with Bondara.

Also, again, Maul never dominated Qui-Gon. With a leg injury, he was definitely assuming the advantage (although a case could be made for Jinn not being in his peak condition), but he still met the match of his strength against Qui-Gon's blows which shuddered throughout his body. On Naboo, even after Qui-Gon was alone, he contended with Maul for an extended period of time, and he was the one on the offensive until he tired down and Maul disposed of him due to him tiring and Ataru having a weak defense. That isn't what I'd call dominating, especially considering the Jedi at the time such as Jinn were not accustomed to dealing with doublesabers.


However, the simplicity of accolades like "one of the best in the order" and "a master of Teras Kasi" are fairly reliable in that they are not going to spawn any inconsistencies.. unless the writer is a child.

They are still comparative, to some extent. All I'm saying is that there are accolades that are just fluff designed to make characters look impressive. I don't doubt Qui-Gon was among the best in the Order, which is reiterated throughout multiple sources, but I'm just noting that accolades only go so far in value.


Fair points, but Sith Lightning =/= Blunt Force. Not that he isn't resilient, but he doesn't have harder bones or denser muscle/flesh than normal people/Jedi, who Maul has been capable of injuring quite severely with his body. So I stand by the concept of Maul's face kicks bruising up that pretty boys face :p

It isn't exactly translatable to blunt trauma, but it is somewhat indicative of Luke's own resiliency. And Luke not being harder than regular Jedi made me laugh - not to be demeaning, but the exercises Luke performs should be clearly indicative that he isn't an ordinary Jedi, especially given how lacking his training was beforehand. And Maul's kick never injured Kenobi, who has no durability feats exceeding Luke's at all, and Kenobi's strength feats, at this point, are just worse. Strength is not directly translatable to durability, but Luke just has greater resiliency than Kenobi, who was only staggered by Maul's kick, not bruised. That had just about no impact on the fight, anyway.

And that's assuming Maul will hit Luke. Luke is about as fast as Maul - Maul got the hit against Qui-Gon because he was faster, and he got the hit against Obi-Wan because Kenobi's heated assault left him open to counterattack, as Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force indicates. Luke is not slower than Maul, and is not open to counterattack. Luke in TESB alone deflected a surprise attack from Vader, and in RotJ, after he deactivated his lightsaber, he still found it not very difficult to ignite it in time to defend against Vader, and he proceeded to dodge another pair of slashes from Vader as well as a saber throw. This may not be as indicative of his ability to dodge purely physical attacks, but I stand by what I said about Maul kicking Kenobi not doing much.

Also, if Luke managed to land a blow on Maul with his feet or something, that wouldn't be unfelt, either. Luke literally kicked Vader down a staircase, and Vader seemed legitimately harmed (not actually wounded, but there was strain in his voice), and Vader is more durable than Maul.

Nice debate man, I think we brought quite a lot of life into this topic.

Agreed. Good discussion.

#49 Posted by SSJDarthPlagueis (2550 posts) - - Show Bio

Luke and defiantly if he is enraged. Would like to seem him go all crazy like he did with Vader.

#50 Posted by ShootingNova (16979 posts) - - Show Bio

defiantly if he is enraged. Would like to seem him go all crazy like he did with Vader.

Let's be honest - this is not happening at all. TPM Maul had no place for Dun Moch and knows nothing about Luke anyways.