Darth Maul Vs. Luminara Unduli and Barris Offee

Round 1: Basically, what if Luminara and Barris had been the ones to face Darth Maul during the Battle of Naboo instead of Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan? Would they have fared any better? Worse? Neither? Tell me what you think.

Round 2: Clone Wars Maul and Savage Opress Vs. Luminara and Barris

Versus

Versus

@JediXMan

Maul.

@JediXMan: Yeah, I thought so too. Just wanted to see what other people thought.

Maul definitely wins Round 1.

Round 2 is a stomp in favour of Team 1.

Maul wins round 1. TPM Obi-Wan>Barriss and Qui-Gon>Luminara. If Maul beat these two (in saber dueling and Force wise, he did) only losing to arrogance, I think Maul would beat them easier. Maul is a better duelist than both, although they might last because of Soresu. But nah. Maul would beat them.

Round 2- Mismatches like this shouldn't be made. Savage solos. So does Maul. 11/10, SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

R1: Maul (with mid difficulty tho)

R2: Mismatch/Stomp for Team 1. Both could solo.

Is this a joke? Maul defeated both Qui Gon and Obi Wan at Naboo, Obi Wan only won because of deus ex machina lucky hit, Maul had him already defeated hanging on the edge. Qui Gon and Obi Wan are both in top 10 most powerful jedi masters of all time and they lost! So how do you imagine random, featless jedi couple to get even remotely close to defeating Maul? It's absurd. Maul stomps first round, second round is even more laughable.

Maul wins.

Team one wins.

Round 1: I'm not sure how I'd compare Luminara and Qui-Gon, but if Luminara is a more suitable opponent for Maul, I can't see her having a sufficiently significant advantage over Qui-Gon. I think Obi-Wan, as of The Phantom Menace, is probably a more well-rounded fighter than Barriss. Maul might find himself on the defensive a little more in this fight than in his fight against Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, but I don't think he's in any real trouble. At least a 9/10 win for Maul.

Round 2: In the first season of The Clone Wars, Luminara and (an albeit inexperienced) Ahsoka could barely hold off Asajj Ventress. If we assume that Ahsoka and Barriss were at a broadly similar level, and that Asajj Ventress is at a broadly similar level to Maul and Savage (there's room for debate here - I know), I think it's safe to say that Maul and Savage would annihilate Luminara and Barriss 10/10 times.

If by broadly you mean Maul and Savage are better than Ventress, then yes.

I agree with your post.

Maul solos, both rounds.

Round 1:

This entire scenario kinda depends on where you rank Qui-Gon.

Luminara was able to stalemate Ventress while hindered, Savage was able to with an environmental edge. But Savage faced a later version of Ventress who was likely better (not by much)

Ventress at that point lost convincingly to TCW Obi-Wan and stalemated AotC Obi-Wan while he was hindered and his organs were melting and lost in TCD. AotC Obi-Wan is bare minimum faster than Qui-Gon. So I think we can safely say Luminara is better than Qui-Gon.

TPM Kenobi would be better than Offee. And while Maul couldn't penetrate TPM Kenobi's guard he likely will Bariss. Which begs the question if Luminara's Soresu could last agaisnt Maul's Juyo for her to recover. Which IMO it couldn't. So Maul wins, his prep time will help also. Pretty much a duel of fates repeat

Round two:

Luminara is slightly inferior to Savage who is very much inferior to Maul and Barriss is not even a factor. Brothers win

Yeah, Maul for both.

@greysentinel365:

Luminara was able to stalemate Ventress while hindered, Savage was able to with an environmental edge.

Oppress was beating ventress and was pre prime

And while Maul couldn't penetrate TPM Kenobi's guard

Post please?

The Sith win both rounds.

Maul.

Maul wins in a decent fight in round one

Team one stomps in round 2

@kbroskywalker

Maul's savage prowess with two blades was not enough to defeat Obi-Wan's single-bladed weapon

Credit: Ultimate Star Wars

And yeah, considering he had to land a physical strike( according to the novel, or a force push according to the movie) to actually throw Obi Wan into the pit, yes, Maul didn't penetrate Obi Wan's "lightsaber" guard, technically.

Maul wins both rounds.

Is this discussing when Kenobi opened himself to the Dark Side? When he went into a rage that almost equaled M's, and M didn't defeat him but defended against K until K wore down?

No. He wasn't

Ventress and Obi-Wan together are kind a stalemating them, but eventually they gonna lose in that space, in that situation, and they needed to flee.''

https://youtu.be/n8PEGa3Wq50?t=13m40s

So despite an environmental disadvantage she still stalemated him. Not to mention being deprived of one of her blades

Oppress' growth was dubious at best. He still lost to Maul convincingly. While Ventress contented with him quite well in Revenge.

So while Savage did grow, it wasn't by much and certainly not enough to be a definitive edge

Maul solos. He doesn't need help from Savage

Maul solos both rounds.

Maul wins.

Excellent to see confirmation that Savage wasn't beating Ventress, which is a major misconception. They both trade advantages over each other and after Ventress gets her second blade, there's nothing to indicate that Savage was ever beating her again. And indeed, the environment favored Savage.

@shootingnova: Funny thing is the confirmation has been around for years. Just no one bothered to listen to the full interview.

They just got tunnel vision on the whole Kenobi focus thing from the same interview

Which ironically in the same interview, Filoni outright denies was any kind of empowerment.

@greysentinel365: I've never actually seen the interview myself. Interesting stuff. But it does rectify a lot of misconceptions on those fights, so I'm glad it's getting attention.

@greysentinel365:

Nice. More fuel for the Ventress fire.

Btw. I havent been able to contact you.

Are you still doing the CaV tournament or...

Filoni also says that Kenobi gains extra focus when Adi dies and that it's all about focus so yeah it's indeed funny that people don't understand that 1+1=2.

@darthduelist9: I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. But Filoni is asked point blank if Adi death "empowered him" (exact wording) and Filoni outright denies it. He even interrupts the interviewer to say it (which says something)

He said that because the interviewer compared it to when Qui-Gon died which "empowered" him, it's obviously a different situation (e.g. Obi-Wan didn't tap into his anger) but he still gained a lot of extra focus because of Adi's death so that's going to be an advantage for Kenobi either way.

@greysentinel365:

On mobile so excuse the letters

A. "Kinda stalemating them" and they were going to lose eventually

B. Maul beat oppress due to use of Teri kasi

C. Ventures parrying a few strikes from maul does not equate contending with him other wise in that case novel Ashoka contended with maul as well

@darthduelist9

Here's what he said:

Interviewer "So Obi Wan Kenobi loses Qui Gon to Darth Maul and is suddenly just empowered to defeat him, Obi Wan loses Adi Galia and the same thing kinda happens. Is this sense of loss kinda empowering or is it just(gets interrupted by Filoni)

Filoni: "Not really, its a lot of focus, and being a hero, and kindness"

Credit: Star Wars Celebration Clone Wars Season 5 Premiere

Dave has basically denied that it was "empowering" for him. And the focus is used in a different context here altogether.

On Raydonia and the Turtle Tanker, he has said that Obi Wan was in an emotional disarray:

Dave Filoni : ''So Obi-Wan rushed out there didn't realize Savage Opress was there, thought he was just going to fight against the strange guy, wasn't even sure he was Darth Maul, thought someone claiming to be Darth Maul. Gets there and worst case scenario not only he is Darth Maul, he realizes that he is teaming up with Savage Opress....

He is not in the right mindset.

Credit: Star Wars Celebration Clone Wars Season 5 Premiere

Now "directly" after that, he says this( see the interview again):

Now when you come to this episode, Obi Wan is much more focused and ready.

Credit: Star Wars Celebration Clone Wars Season 5 Premiere

Focus in this context simply means that he wasn't in the emotional disarray that he was previously against the brothers( the reason he used the word actually). That a phantom more than a decade from his past hasn't suddenly sprung to reality, along with a hulk of a brother who gave him substantial problems before. This time he is ready, and thus is mentally focused for the task. In other words, he had no hindrances, emotional or surprise wise. So more focus, judging by the "hero, and kindness" part and context, is probably going more all out and actually using aggression against the brothers, something he doesn't do normally. It was also strategically required as against 2 force users of his stature, he can only defend for so long in such a closed environment.

And then Dave said that the loss didn't empower him. "Empowerment" means getting an undue advantage( which can be in any way), which Dave denied so, yes, either way that's covered. The fact that Dave specifically interrupted to deny this also should be noted, as Grey said.

In SC, it is written that he does manage to get his emotions under control:

Obi-Wan looked away, momentarily overcome with grief. Adi Gallia had been friends with Qui-Gon Jinn, and it was her investigations that had led to their mission to Naboo to break the Trade Federation blockade. Adi had instructed Obi-Wan when he was an apprentice alongside her own Padawan, Siri Tachi, then been a friend to Anakin Skywalker when so many in the Jedi Order doubted him.And she had helped save Obi-Wan’s life at Geonosis, Saleucami, and Lola Sayu.It seemed impossible that she could have passed into the Force, never to fight or teach again.

He managed to get his emotions under control and look back at Hondo.

Credit: Shadow Conspiracy

Round 2 here doesn't have any discussion value. Maul wins round 1, in a decent fight.

@darthduelist9: he gained focus via his own ability to focus himself. He focused himself and he has shown this ability multiple times and has stated he can do this. Kenobi's out duties maul +oppress in spite of being prep rime and using a secondary form, it's that simple.

@shootingnova: prior to the use of a second blade ventress was losing. She was completely unable to do anything to oppress physically, was quickly disarmed, and was getting thrown around and had to be saved twice by kenobi. Now granted, she was hindered and on even ground I'd favor ventress but she was losing prior to the use of a second blade

@kbroskywalker:

She was completely unable to do anything to oppress physically, was quickly disarmed, and was getting thrown around and had to be saved twice by kenobi. Now granted, she was hindered and on even ground I'd favor ventress but she was losing prior to the use of a second blade

Saved twice by Kenobi? She was the first one to get the advantage in the fight despite the environment being terrible for Makashi. Savage recovered and gained the advantage, then Ventress got on top of him and hit him repeatedly before he threw her to the ground, where she proceeded to dodge every one of his strikes whilst retaliating with her fists, but she couldn't hurt him because of his durability. It's only then that Obi-Wan throw her her other lightsaber, which is the only thing I can interpret as "saving". And if Ventress has been given that other lightsaber from the onset, then she wouldn't need to be saved anyway.

No idea what the second "saving" was, unless you mean the part where Ventress briefly took on Maul and Savage.

@jedixman said:

@kbroskywalker:

Saved twice by Kenobi?

rewatched the fight, she was saved only once

she was the first one to get the advantage in the fight despite the environment being terrible for Makashi.

you mean landing a kick at the start? Considering that she was then dodged and subsequently slammed into a crate and disarmed(only seconds into oppress and ventress's fight) right after, I'd hardly call that an advantage. And after that she was thrown like ragdoll across the room. I never called into question that she was at an environmental disadvantage or that the fight was circumstantial.

Savage recovered and gained the advantage

Yes he instantly recovered

then Ventress got on top of him and hit him repeatedly before he threw her to the ground

And she was completely unable to do anything to oppress with those numerous hits and still got slammed into the ground and then thrown into a group of crates

where she proceeded to dodge every one of his strikes whilst retaliating with her fists, but she couldn't hurt him because of his durability

she dodged two strikes and then had her kick dodged by oppress before being smacked in the butt, then she got saved by kenobi. And then she was forced on her knee.

g". And if Ventress has been given that other lightsaber from the onset, then she wouldn't need to be saved anyway.

Never disputed this, what i said was with only one saber she was losing, not that she would have lost with two.

@kbroskywalker: They both got floored in the fight, which proves my point that they were trading advantages. Regarding Obi-Wan saving her, even if he didn't toss her the other lightsaber, she could've used the Force to summon the one on the ground and resume fighting. It's really just a story device.

Not to mention that Ventress doesn't appear to have been disarmed again in her off-panel fight with Savage after she gets her second blade. That's probably what Filoni meant by stalemating.

@shootingnova:

They both got floored in the fight,

When did oppress ever get floored by ventress?

which proves my point that they were trading advantages.

But ventress's advatages were less significant than oppress's.

Regarding Obi-Wan saving her, even if he didn't toss her the other lightsaber, she could've used the Force to summon the one on the ground and resume fighting. It's really just a story device.

Yea tcw is filled with moments like that as i much as i praise it.

Not to mention that Ventress doesn't appear to have been disarmed again in her off-panel fight with Savage after she gets her second blade.

I was talking about when she had a single blade. On even ground ventress> oppress imo

That's probably what Filoni meant by stalemating.

"kind of stalemating them but eventually gonna lose", though to be fair, that may have just been cause of maul turning the tide vs kenobi via dun moch

@kbroskywalker:

1. I mean the one where he gets pushed into the crates and briefly incapacitated.

2. In fairness, they both could've killed each other when they got the advantage but PIS intervened.

1. I mean the one where he gets pushed into the crates and briefly incapacitated.

Having rewatched the fight that only happened to ventress/maul

In fairness, they both could've killed each other when they got the advantage but PIS intervened.l

Yea that fight also had kenobi passing up two chances to finish maul and then maul passing up on a killing blow post dun moch, it was filled with that kinda crap, though it was still pretty entertaining from my pov

@kbroskywalker:

I meant when Ventress gets the advantage over Savage.

@lordofthelight: Yeah, you've actually proven my point. Focus is apparantly a factor in a fight, right? So when Filoni also says that Obi-Wan gains even more focus when Adi dies it's pretty evident that's going to aid him when fighting the brothers. On the other hand Filoni's also talking about "empowering" in the context of the TPM duel, doesn't mean that Kenobi didn't have any kind of circumstantial advantage.

ALso since when was Ventress hindered by the environment in Revenge? That's just Filoni's way of describing a certain situation lol, not hinting that the environment hindered them.

Kenobi focused himself. Its not a circumstantial advantage, focusing himslef is something kenobi has done multiple times and has said he can do. Absolutely nothing says that it was an external amp

@darthduelist9

No, what I said was Obi Wan did not get any sort of advantage beyond his capabilities. My point simply was, that Filoni uses the word "focus" was used by Dave to compare S4 and S5 Obi Wan. That's it, and he wasn't very specific with the context. But he was specific in the point that Obi Wan did not get any sort of undue advantage in the fight.

Focus is apparantly a factor in a fight, right?

What? You're talking about concentration? Any character deserves full focus before coming in to fight( on the battle forums). Characters in the movies, shows books, etc. may not have full focus due to xyz reasons( like Obi Wan). But that doesn't mean that they can't increase their focus at will. That's simply when they concentrate harder. That should be within the skill sets of every single force user. Case on point, it definitely is for Obi Wan:

Force Powers( these are the known powers Kenobi posessed and it is believed that he had access to many other powers):

Control: Absorb/dissipate energy, accelerate healing, concentrate, control pain, detoxify poison, emptiness, enhancement attribute, hibernation trance, reduce injury, remain conscious, resist stun, short term memory enhancement

Credit: The Movie Trilogy Sourcebook

I didn't know that you had a problem with a character's "concentration". Increasing it is something that can be done at will. By this logic, Maul's focus is greatly enhanced whenever he fights Obi Wan simply because he hates him a lot more, the hate which fuels his power even more. Which wouldn't happen against any other character. So Maul's feats against Obi Wan are a result of rage amps and can't be taken as as a measure of his power under normal circumstances, because he hates less than a handful of people with even a similar intensity as he hates Obi Wan, by that logic.

This is something pretty basic. It has nothing to do with an undue advantage, my friend. You are stretching the talk at this point.

So when Filoni also says that Obi-Wan gains even more focus when Adi dies it's pretty evident that's going to aid him when fighting the brothers.

Which is actually denied by this:

Interviewer: Is this sense of loss kinda empowering or is it just(gets interrupted by Filoni)

Filoni: "Not really, its a lot of focus, and being a hero, and kindness"

Credit: Star Wars Celebration Clone Wars Season 5 Premiere

If he did get "empowered" which means, that if he got any sort of undue advantage, any kind of "special" advantage, "which" is what is asked by the interviewer and interrupted specially to be denied by Filoni.

The meaning of the word empowerment itself is to provide help. The interviewer has asked Filoni if it provides help "beyond Obi Wan's capabilities", like the duel in Episode 1 provided help. Filoni says no.

And I have again stated that it wasn't a rage amp or anything like that:

He managed to get his emotions under control and look back at Hondo.

Credit: Shadow Conspiracy

Whatever he did in the cave, he can replicate in his TCW incarnation, it is within the limits of his abilities.

The Ventress lowballing....smh.

On topic, Maul.

@lordofthelight: It's simple, Obi-Wan was more focused for Maul in Season 5 than he was in Season 4 which contributed how good Kenobi fought against Maul, Filoni says as much. Then you have Kenobi gaining an extra amount of focus because of Adi's death (Filoni's words) so why wouldn't it help him? That Filoni makes a difference between "empowering" and "focus" doesn't change the fact that Adi's death gave Obi-Wan extra focus nor that "focus" in general is an important factor in a fight. Then again, we also know as per Fact File that Kenobi didn't stood a chance against Maul and Savage together so in the end Kenobi's aggressiveness may have surprised the brothers but that doesn't change his placement compared to Maul or Savage.

@darthduelist9 Again, the focus you speak of is nothing more than concentration, something which he can do on his own. He was drawing power from his own reserves, not from some pie in the sky. Anyways, the Filoni quote is decisive in the regard that it didn't provide him with an undue advantage, so I fail to see why a discussion is still going on here.

Then you have Kenobi gaining an extra amount of focus because of Adi's death (Filoni's words) so why wouldn't it help him?

Because he can focus or concentrate at will, because he was being defensive outside the cave against Maul. While he was being aggressive inside the cave. And because concentration is absolutely nothing special for a character. It is determination to win, which increased even more after Adi's defeat, which is probably why Filoni calls him a hero.

And really, you are talking about an increased determination to win, as proof that he was amped? I'll throw the Maul logic at you, again. Maul's determination, and concentration to win against Obi Wan is much higher than it is for any random character. So his fights against Obi Wan are a result of an extreme amount of determination, and aren't a measure of his ability in normal circumstances.

There are countless examples wherein a character has had an increased determination to win. Just because the motivation to fight is higher for him, doesn't mean that he was amped. Whatever he did, he did within the scope of his own abilities, with his own powers, and his own strengths, his own weaknesses. Point being, an increased determination to win doesn't count as an amp, nor does it count as a special advantage.

What more do you need now? He wasn't even angry.

Look, Filoni has stated that he wasn't given any extra powers whatsoever( the definition of empowering). What he indeed has stated, is that Obi Wan's determination to win has increased. His powers are still the same, "the difference is that he uses more of them". It is literally as simple as that.

Then again, we also know as per Fact File that Kenobi didn't stood a chance against Maul and Savage together so in the end Kenobi's aggressiveness may have surprised the brothers but that doesn't change his placement compared to Maul or Savage.

Whereas you have Filoni stating that he is too skilled a swordsman to lose against the brothers. So really, it is Filoni vs Fact File. I think I'll go with what the creator of the show intends for his characters.

Which is, that he is a rival of Maul, and superior to Savage, though by a small amount. You have a force user who is his rival, and then again, a force user who is within a tier of his brother, overall speaking. Logically, Obi Wan can't beat them both. But if Count Dooku can contend with Obi Wan and Anakin, simultaneously, I see no reason why Obi Wan can't contend with Maul and Savage( a duo firmly inferior to ROTS Obi Wan and Anakin). He might not have a shot at winning that, but he is definitely giving a good fight. 2 vs 1 doesn't go as well in SW as intended. And neither does it go logically. If so, Dooku would have been easily bested by Obi Wan and Anakin, which he clearly wasn't.